Alienist/Cataclysm Mage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alienist/Cataclysm Mage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Duke
08-29-05, 11:51 PM In our Ebberon campaign, my character just died, so I'm planning a wizard. I'm making a character who's researching the plane of madness, to make sure that creatures from that plane don't find ways to get back to the material. I was looking at the alienist from complete arcane and the cataclysm mage from explorer's handbook, but I was wondering what suggestions the boards have, in terms of number of levels to take in each. Also, what are the good conjuration spells that have saves attached to them, so that taking spell focus conjuration isn't a completely wasted feat? Any other tips people have would also be welcome.
stembolt
08-30-05, 12:48 AM Alienist:

Wizard specialize in conjuration, drop Evocation(no brainer) and one other, my choice is enchantment.

Wiz5/Alienist10/(fatespinner or geometer)5
or
Wiz5/Alienist10/Heir of Siberys3/(fatespinner or geometer)2 (is it worth it to loose the caster level? That depends on if Dragonmarks are much of an advantage in your campaign. If they are yes, if not then no, with the possible exception of the healing one).

Race. The nice thing is, you could really go with any race here.

Conjuration save spells, cone of acid, cloud kill, stinking cloud.
Karlcullinane
08-30-05, 04:20 AM Some of the better conjuration spells out there, damage wise and versatility wise anyway, are the Orb of XXX line from Complete Arcane...Orb of Acid is probably one of the most damaging spells in that line and ignores SR...and ignoring SR is NEVER a bad thing. Getting Spell Focus Conjuration just makes them that much harder to save against, and the nifty Nausea, Stun/Daze effects that go along with them that much sweeter.
K
08-30-05, 04:30 AM Personally, I wouldn't take a single level of Alienist if I wanted to play a Conjurer. The Summon Alien ability turns all your fiendish animals/vermin into Psuedonatural animals/vermin, but it takes all the good monsters off your summon list (like the outsiders and elementals) and removes some good feat options from you.

An Alienist is also someone who is so spooky that random strangers hate you (you have "class features" that are penalties to Handle Animals and Diplomacy). The flavor does not mesh well with a heroic character.

Cataclysm Mage is very cool flavorwise, even though the abilities are generally on par with a non-optimized PrC (that first level aster hit is the real pain).

So here is my advice:

Dedicated Conjurors are not about being a Specialist Wizard or PrCed. Its all about well chosen feats and spells.

Good Feats:
--Augment Summoning: +4 enhancement to Str and Con for monsters
--Beckon the Frozen: requires AugSum and SpellFoc(Conj), and the monsters get the cold subtype and 1d6 cold damage on attacks
--Stalwart Planar Ally: Add +4 AC and saves, and double duration, to your monsters if they are from a plane you have a Touchstone feat from (remember that you need only one Lower Plane Touchstone to buff all Fiendish, or one Upper Plane for Celestials). Since the Touchstone feats are your prereqs and they can be awesone in their own right, this is just frosting on your cake. (Also, as you are creating a new character you can just get the Touchstone feats and assume your character has visited them in the past.)

Loser or Minimally Useful Feats:
--Icy Calling: Requires a freezing environment, so its not really worth it, despite the very neat max HPs. It requires Snowcasting, and its useful for summoning your armies at your home base and sending them through
Gates or Teleport Circles to an attack or ambush.
--Celestial/Fiendish Summoning Specialist: You take one or the other one of these and buff up your summoning list with extra monsters wihout removing old monsters. Requires DM approval. Its not essential, but can be nice.
--There are also setting specific feats that add a template to your monsters. Choose those on a case by case basis and DMs approval.

Spells:
Now, you want to go with the Summon Ice Beast spells for monsters with few or no good special abilities or Con mod. Work up each monster in its normal summoned form and its Ice Beast Template form; monsters with no special attacks like like Fiendish Apes will benefit and monsters like Djinni will not.

The Summon Undead spells can be nice at low levels. The Corpsecrafter line of feats are another way to add power to this line of spells; however, since this line of spells stops at 5th level, its not worth the 4 feats you'd have to spend make uber-buffed undead.

Faerun also has several Conjurations that act just like Evocations, so don't worry that you won't use your Spell Focus(Conj)

Tactics:
Arcane Disciple(Summon Domain) can get you into Thaumaturgist, which is free feats and abilities for 5 levels.

Another fun tactic is to take cold subtyped undead (gained with Beckon the Frozen and Summon Undead) and lay down Cold damaging spells (or energy-damaging spells altered by Energy Substitution[cold]) altered by Lord of the Uttercold. You get to blast your enemies and buff your monsters at the same time (the negative energy damage heals your undead and they are immune to the cold damage).
stembolt
08-30-05, 09:32 PM Personally, I wouldn't take a single level of Alienist if I wanted to play a Conjurer. The Summon Alien ability turns all your fiendish animals/vermin into Psuedonatural animals/vermin, but it takes all the good monsters off your summon list (like the outsiders and elementals) and removes some good feat options from you.

Except that the creatures get truestrike. The single weakest point of a summoned creature is low to hit bonuses. +1d6 cold damage is useless without hitting.

Another thing is that alienists do not give up caster levels.
Dark Kyosuke
08-30-05, 10:20 PM There's actually nothing wrong with the Alienist, espically since it is, as stembolt pointed out, full freakin' caster. Yes, you lose elementals and outsiders, but gain True Strike. It's a trade, certainly, but I've never heard of someone who managed to field an Alienist who didn't enjoy it imminsely.

... And where is Beckon The Frozen from? I could use that...
K
08-30-05, 10:43 PM Except that the creatures get truestrike. The single weakest point of a summoned creature is low to hit bonuses. +1d6 cold damage is useless without hitting.

Another thing is that alienists do not give up caster levels.

Psuedonatural monters get Truestrike once per day, which is not enough to substantially alter their overall combat performance.

Getting Alienist levels might preserve your caster progression, and it might look good in combination with your Summon Monster I through Summon Monster III, but when you are the guy who is using Summon Monster IV and is not able to get Lantern Archons or Mephits or Elemental Grues, you are going to suspect you made a bad choice. By the time you can't summon Movanic Devas or Hezrou or Bebiliths, you are going to know that you've made a huge mistake. Alienist levels also cause you to opt out of the extra template/monster options in the Planar Handbook, most of which are quite good and worth looking at.

A perfectly min-maxed Conjuror character won't be taking the first level of Cataclysm Mage (or even any, really), but even a decently min-maxed Conjuror is not taking even a single level of Alienist.
stembolt
08-30-05, 11:12 PM Psuedonatural monters get Truestrike once per day, which is not enough to substantially alter their overall combat performance.

Whoa boy, spoken like someone who has never been surrounded by a summoned band of pseudonatural dire bears (we had to invent special terms for that. “hump salad” is my favorite).

Next it is not unreasonable to ask for the ability to summon other creatures from the far realms/Xoriot. And any feats that give other powers/templates to summoned creatures may be applied to these creatures afterwards.

Now I’m not saying that all summoners need to be alienists. Just the ones who want to be any good.

(Actually I’m not saying that either. Alienists are actually quite effective and really flavorful characters, and I assume someday another summoner will be their equal)
AlienFromBeyond
08-30-05, 11:30 PM Don't have the explorer's handbook, mind saying what it does exactly?
K
08-31-05, 05:27 AM Whoa boy, spoken like someone who has never been surrounded by a summoned band of pseudonatural dire bears (we had to invent special terms for that. “hump salad” is my favorite).

Funny terminology aside, I don't think that statement is correct.

Lets break it down. Dire Bears are summoned out of the 8th level Summon Monster VIII, so to get a pack (lets say 3) with a single summon (Maximized or just a good roll), you are casting Summon Monster IX, a 9th level spell. This means you are 17th level.

Now, a reasonable CR 17 challenge is a Very Old White Dragon, with his massive AC of 34.

Dire Bears enhanced by Augmented Summoning are +21 with a primary attack claw (2d4+10), and two of those and a +15 bite (2d8+7) on a full attack. We'll assume no extra boosts to summoned monsters from feats or class abilities.

Now, if three summoned pseudonatural Dire Bears ran up and attacked this dragon, we are looking at 2d4 +12 multiplied by three times. That’s an average of 51 points of damage. After that, they will fight just as well as a Celestial Dire Bear.

Now, lets say that three Celestial Dire Bears do the same attack. They blow their Smite Evil ability (+12 damage to evil creatures). With +21s to hit, they are hitting on 11s(they are getting the +2 Flanking bonuses). On average, one will hit, one will miss, and one will hit just under half the time. To get an easy average, we'll just half that one hit as crits will multiply Smite damage. I'm looking at an average damage of around 43.5 points of damage.

Basically, the psuedonatural Dire Bears are up an average of 7.5 points of damage over their Celestial brothers when they attack an Evil Very Old White Dragon.

Against Good or Neutral enemies, they are up 32.5 points of damage over the course of the whole combat. That’s around 10% of a Neutral or Good White Dragon's HPs, so its not inconsiderable.

But are you planning on killing a lot of Good and Neutral creatures in your campaign?

And here is the kicker. While the Alienist appears to be a better Conjuror, he does not have the following options in the same battle:

1. Summon three Vrocks to cast Mirror Image every round and absorb all the dragon's physical attacks, even full attacks, while blowing Spores as a free action every three rounds for 1d8 damage first round and 1d4 for 10 rounds after.

Or have the three Vrocks clear the room of small minions by doing a Supernatural untyped 20d6(DC 18 Ref for half) to everyone within 100ft every three rounds.

2. Summon 3 Greater Earth Elementals with Augmented Summoning, who have two +25 slams and can use Power Attack to reduce themselves to the Dire Bear's to hit and do 12 more points of damage per hit (or not use Power Attack and be at +4 to hit and +8 to damage per hit). They also have the perfect DR 10/--, around twice as many HPs, Grapple bonuses that are 10 points higher, AC that is three points higher, and the ability to move through earth.

3. Permanently swtch out Fiendish for Vivacious and after the battle have a monster that grants everyone Fast Healing 1, making a 3rd level spell cure 60 points of damage over 60 rounds to everyone within 20 ft (with a modest +3 caster level, Thaumaturgist 3 or a Planar Touchstone in the Positive Energy Plane and Stalwart Planar Ally, and Extend Spell).

Personally, I'd rather have those options.

I mean, just having the option to not fight with Dire Bears and fight with Greater Earth Elementals means that you are better off not being an Alienist. In a worse case scenario where they are only hitting on one of two attacks, they surpass the Psuedonatual Dire Bear's average damage vs Good and Neutral creatures in the first round (assuming full attacks for both kinds of Bears).

Next it is not unreasonable to ask for the ability to summon other creatures from the far realms/Xoriot. And any feats that give other powers/templates to summoned creatures may be applied to these creatures afterwards.

No, its not unreasonable to assume that our DM will let you trade out monsters you can summon for other ones; however, how many Far Realm creatures are there?

I can only think of 3-4 that have been published.

So unless the DM adds 52 monsters to your list, you are getting cheated of problem solving and tactical options, as well as raw combat ability. (The list actually increases if you count the additions in the Monster Manuals [II, III, and Fiend Folio], Complete books, and the Planar Handbook, and if you count that the "any" listing for elementals and mephits also means that things like Ice Elementals are also technically on the list.)

With the rules as written, Alienists fall quite short. Any argument based on "and then my DM changes the Rules As Written and makes Alienists better" is destined to fall short.

Now I’m not saying that all summoners need to be alienists. Just the ones who want to be any good.

(Actually I’m not saying that either. Alienists are actually quite effective and really flavorful characters, and I assume someday another summoner will be their equal)

I won't fault alienists on flavor. They have that, even if it is weird and not good for party play.

But tactically speaking, at best an Alienist is a little bit better than just taking core Wizard levels. At worst, it hopelessly railroads you into a weak position.

Personally, I'd rather be good all of the time rather than being a little better than good in a very specific circumstance and crippled the rest of the time.
stembolt
08-31-05, 09:19 AM The only problem here is that in practice I know that it is worth it. I have had an unusual amount of summoners both in characters I played and DMed. The difference has been startling. The only loss is utility. creatures that fly or move through the earth. Aside from that the characters go from "why can't" any of my creatures hit?" to "take that fiend."
Jimbo19
08-31-05, 11:18 AM where can i find arcane disciple?
K
08-31-05, 03:21 PM The only problem here is that in practice I know that it is worth it. I have had an unusual amount of summoners both in characters I played and DMed. The difference has been startling. The only loss is utility. creatures that fly or move through the earth. Aside from that the characters go from "why can't" any of my creatures hit?" to "take that fiend."

The numbers don't support that viewpoint, but I think I know where its coming from.

Alienists excel in only one field. That field is the "fire and forget" style of monster summoning.

First, the "fire and forget" style of summoning involves not researching all your monsters. Most people are not aware that at any one spell level there are only a few great choices for combat monsters and the rest of that level's list for is utility monsters or "special circumstances"(SC) monsters. When someone chooses a utility or SC monster to fight in a "equal CR to your level" combat, they will be heartily disappointed by its combat performance. A Psuedonatural monster will at least get the first hit, even if its the worse possible monster for that situation.

Secondly, since the pseudonatural monster is autohitting on the very first strike, you can cast low-level summoning spells every turn and have them hit your enemies before taking a hit or two and dropping. This keeps up a steady flow of small amounts of damage at the expense of wasting large amounts of spell slots.

Now, if a non-Alienist tried this tactic, he'd be quite frustrated. Summoning poorly suited and underleveled monsters into a high CR encounter is a recipe for disaster.

Personally, I don't like this tactic with or without an Alienist. My standards are too high.

I demand a steady flow of large amounts of damage. To reach this end, I research every monster available to me so that I can summon the best monster for the situation, I cast highly synergistic spells to aid those monsters, and I summon only the most powerful monsters to deal with the most powerful enemies. In addition, I pre-mark certain monsters for utility roles so that I know every utility option available to me (I've always liked the Dretch Stink Corp, a tactic that involves summoning Dretches to cast Stinking Cloud and cripple an army's ability to fight. Five Stinking Clouds in one round is quite nice against large numbers of level 1-2 enemies). I also like to conserve spell slots in order to maximize my contributions to the party and to the adventure.

For my overall strategy, called the "being an awesome Conjuror and player" strategy, taking a level of Alienist is a huge hindrance.

But, if you are the kind of player that doesn't want to work very hard and doesn't need to be very good, then Alienist is for you. It turns the art of summoning into a foolproof exercise of making a minimum contribution to party. For a "beer and pretzels" game, its perfect. You might even want to play a Sorcerer in order to free yourself up from choosing spells before every adventuring day.

I wouldn't recommend it, though. Even a Core-rules Evoker is going to out-damage you and add more to the party.
sornet
08-31-05, 03:48 PM where can i find arcane disciple?
Arcane Disciple, Complete Divine, pg. 79
stembolt
08-31-05, 08:15 PM Five Stinking Clouds in one round is quite nice against large numbers of level 1-2 enemies).

That’s probably the most telling statement right there. Summoned creatures spell like abilities are generally underpowered given their level. Against level appropriate foes the abilities are, not useless, but underpowered.

Rarely will it not simply be better to cast the spell yourself. Generally summoned creatures bolster and support the rest of the party more than they accomplish anything themselves (again that’s vs. appropriate threat levels).
K
08-31-05, 08:31 PM That’s probably the most telling statement right there. Summoned creatures spell like abilities are generally underpowered given their level. Against level appropriate foes the abilities are, not useless, but underpowered.

Rarely will it not simply be better to cast the spell yourself. Generally summoned creatures bolster and support the rest of the party more than they accomplish anything themselves (again that’s vs. appropriate threat levels).

What's your point? And how does it prove that Alienist Conjururs are better than non-Alienist Conjurors?
stembolt
08-31-05, 09:32 PM What's your point? And how does it prove that Alienist Conjururs are better than non-Alienist Conjurors?

Summoners. Conjurers are a different animal. At any rate it doesn’t. It just shows how you arrived at your false conclusions.
Nifft
08-31-05, 10:25 PM Alienist was teh k3wl back when you could summon pseudonatural elementals, and devils, and such. Now it is clearly teh suxx0rz.

"Hi, I'd like to sell my Sanity for a reduction in summoning options."
"Sorry, pal, if you're eager to trade, your Sanity isn't worth much."

-- N

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Duke 08-29-05, 11:51 PM	In our Ebberon campaign, my character just died, so I'm planning a wizard. I'm making a character who's researching the plane of madness, to make sure that creatures from that plane don't find ways to get back to the material. I was looking at the alienist from complete arcane and the cataclysm mage from explorer's handbook, but I was wondering what suggestions the boards have, in terms of number of levels to take in each. Also, what are the good conjuration spells that have saves attached to them, so that taking spell focus conjuration isn't a completely wasted feat? Any other tips people have would also be welcome.
stembolt 08-30-05, 12:48 AM	Alienist: Wizard specialize in conjuration, drop Evocation(no brainer) and one other, my choice is enchantment. Wiz5/Alienist10/(fatespinner or geometer)5 or Wiz5/Alienist10/Heir of Siberys3/(fatespinner or geometer)2 (is it worth it to loose the caster level? That depends on if Dragonmarks are much of an advantage in your campaign. If they are yes, if not then no, with the possible exception of the healing one). Race. The nice thing is, you could really go with any race here. Conjuration save spells, cone of acid, cloud kill, stinking cloud.
Karlcullinane 08-30-05, 04:20 AM	Some of the better conjuration spells out there, damage wise and versatility wise anyway, are the Orb of XXX line from Complete Arcane...Orb of Acid is probably one of the most damaging spells in that line and ignores SR...and ignoring SR is NEVER a bad thing. Getting Spell Focus Conjuration just makes them that much harder to save against, and the nifty Nausea, Stun/Daze effects that go along with them that much sweeter.
K 08-30-05, 04:30 AM	Personally, I wouldn't take a single level of Alienist if I wanted to play a Conjurer. The Summon Alien ability turns all your fiendish animals/vermin into Psuedonatural animals/vermin, but it takes all the good monsters off your summon list (like the outsiders and elementals) and removes some good feat options from you. An Alienist is also someone who is so spooky that random strangers hate you (you have "class features" that are penalties to Handle Animals and Diplomacy). The flavor does not mesh well with a heroic character. Cataclysm Mage is very cool flavorwise, even though the abilities are generally on par with a non-optimized PrC (that first level aster hit is the real pain). So here is my advice: Dedicated Conjurors are not about being a Specialist Wizard or PrCed. Its all about well chosen feats and spells. Good Feats: --Augment Summoning: +4 enhancement to Str and Con for monsters --Beckon the Frozen: requires AugSum and SpellFoc(Conj), and the monsters get the cold subtype and 1d6 cold damage on attacks --Stalwart Planar Ally: Add +4 AC and saves, and double duration, to your monsters if they are from a plane you have a Touchstone feat from (remember that you need only one Lower Plane Touchstone to buff all Fiendish, or one Upper Plane for Celestials). Since the Touchstone feats are your prereqs and they can be awesone in their own right, this is just frosting on your cake. (Also, as you are creating a new character you can just get the Touchstone feats and assume your character has visited them in the past.) Loser or Minimally Useful Feats: --Icy Calling: Requires a freezing environment, so its not really worth it, despite the very neat max HPs. It requires Snowcasting, and its useful for summoning your armies at your home base and sending them through Gates or Teleport Circles to an attack or ambush. --Celestial/Fiendish Summoning Specialist: You take one or the other one of these and buff up your summoning list with extra monsters wihout removing old monsters. Requires DM approval. Its not essential, but can be nice. --There are also setting specific feats that add a template to your monsters. Choose those on a case by case basis and DMs approval. Spells: Now, you want to go with the Summon Ice Beast spells for monsters with few or no good special abilities or Con mod. Work up each monster in its normal summoned form and its Ice Beast Template form; monsters with no special attacks like like Fiendish Apes will benefit and monsters like Djinni will not. The Summon Undead spells can be nice at low levels. The Corpsecrafter line of feats are another way to add power to this line of spells; however, since this line of spells stops at 5th level, its not worth the 4 feats you'd have to spend make uber-buffed undead. Faerun also has several Conjurations that act just like Evocations, so don't worry that you won't use your Spell Focus(Conj) Tactics: Arcane Disciple(Summon Domain) can get you into Thaumaturgist, which is free feats and abilities for 5 levels. Another fun tactic is to take cold subtyped undead (gained with Beckon the Frozen and Summon Undead) and lay down Cold damaging spells (or energy-damaging spells altered by Energy Substitution[cold]) altered by Lord of the Uttercold. You get to blast your enemies and buff your monsters at the same time (the negative energy damage heals your undead and they are immune to the cold damage).
stembolt 08-30-05, 09:32 PM	Personally, I wouldn't take a single level of Alienist if I wanted to play a Conjurer. The Summon Alien ability turns all your fiendish animals/vermin into Psuedonatural animals/vermin, but it takes all the good monsters off your summon list (like the outsiders and elementals) and removes some good feat options from you. Except that the creatures get truestrike. The single weakest point of a summoned creature is low to hit bonuses. +1d6 cold damage is useless without hitting. Another thing is that alienists do not give up caster levels.
Dark Kyosuke 08-30-05, 10:20 PM	There's actually nothing wrong with the Alienist, espically since it is, as stembolt pointed out, full freakin' caster. Yes, you lose elementals and outsiders, but gain True Strike. It's a trade, certainly, but I've never heard of someone who managed to field an Alienist who didn't enjoy it imminsely. ... And where is Beckon The Frozen from? I could use that...
K 08-30-05, 10:43 PM	Except that the creatures get truestrike. The single weakest point of a summoned creature is low to hit bonuses. +1d6 cold damage is useless without hitting. Another thing is that alienists do not give up caster levels. Psuedonatural monters get Truestrike once per day, which is not enough to substantially alter their overall combat performance. Getting Alienist levels might preserve your caster progression, and it might look good in combination with your Summon Monster I through Summon Monster III, but when you are the guy who is using Summon Monster IV and is not able to get Lantern Archons or Mephits or Elemental Grues, you are going to suspect you made a bad choice. By the time you can't summon Movanic Devas or Hezrou or Bebiliths, you are going to know that you've made a huge mistake. Alienist levels also cause you to opt out of the extra template/monster options in the Planar Handbook, most of which are quite good and worth looking at. A perfectly min-maxed Conjuror character won't be taking the first level of Cataclysm Mage (or even any, really), but even a decently min-maxed Conjuror is not taking even a single level of Alienist.
stembolt 08-30-05, 11:12 PM	Psuedonatural monters get Truestrike once per day, which is not enough to substantially alter their overall combat performance. Whoa boy, spoken like someone who has never been surrounded by a summoned band of pseudonatural dire bears (we had to invent special terms for that. “hump salad” is my favorite). Next it is not unreasonable to ask for the ability to summon other creatures from the far realms/Xoriot. And any feats that give other powers/templates to summoned creatures may be applied to these creatures afterwards. Now I’m not saying that all summoners need to be alienists. Just the ones who want to be any good. (Actually I’m not saying that either. Alienists are actually quite effective and really flavorful characters, and I assume someday another summoner will be their equal)
AlienFromBeyond 08-30-05, 11:30 PM	Don't have the explorer's handbook, mind saying what it does exactly?
K 08-31-05, 05:27 AM	Whoa boy, spoken like someone who has never been surrounded by a summoned band of pseudonatural dire bears (we had to invent special terms for that. “hump salad” is my favorite). Funny terminology aside, I don't think that statement is correct. Lets break it down. Dire Bears are summoned out of the 8th level Summon Monster VIII, so to get a pack (lets say 3) with a single summon (Maximized or just a good roll), you are casting Summon Monster IX, a 9th level spell. This means you are 17th level. Now, a reasonable CR 17 challenge is a Very Old White Dragon, with his massive AC of 34. Dire Bears enhanced by Augmented Summoning are +21 with a primary attack claw (2d4+10), and two of those and a +15 bite (2d8+7) on a full attack. We'll assume no extra boosts to summoned monsters from feats or class abilities. Now, if three summoned pseudonatural Dire Bears ran up and attacked this dragon, we are looking at 2d4 +12 multiplied by three times. That’s an average of 51 points of damage. After that, they will fight just as well as a Celestial Dire Bear. Now, lets say that three Celestial Dire Bears do the same attack. They blow their Smite Evil ability (+12 damage to evil creatures). With +21s to hit, they are hitting on 11s(they are getting the +2 Flanking bonuses). On average, one will hit, one will miss, and one will hit just under half the time. To get an easy average, we'll just half that one hit as crits will multiply Smite damage. I'm looking at an average damage of around 43.5 points of damage. Basically, the psuedonatural Dire Bears are up an average of 7.5 points of damage over their Celestial brothers when they attack an Evil Very Old White Dragon. Against Good or Neutral enemies, they are up 32.5 points of damage over the course of the whole combat. That’s around 10% of a Neutral or Good White Dragon's HPs, so its not inconsiderable. But are you planning on killing a lot of Good and Neutral creatures in your campaign? And here is the kicker. While the Alienist appears to be a better Conjuror, he does not have the following options in the same battle: 1. Summon three Vrocks to cast Mirror Image every round and absorb all the dragon's physical attacks, even full attacks, while blowing Spores as a free action every three rounds for 1d8 damage first round and 1d4 for 10 rounds after. Or have the three Vrocks clear the room of small minions by doing a Supernatural untyped 20d6(DC 18 Ref for half) to everyone within 100ft every three rounds. 2. Summon 3 Greater Earth Elementals with Augmented Summoning, who have two +25 slams and can use Power Attack to reduce themselves to the Dire Bear's to hit and do 12 more points of damage per hit (or not use Power Attack and be at +4 to hit and +8 to damage per hit). They also have the perfect DR 10/--, around twice as many HPs, Grapple bonuses that are 10 points higher, AC that is three points higher, and the ability to move through earth. 3. Permanently swtch out Fiendish for Vivacious and after the battle have a monster that grants everyone Fast Healing 1, making a 3rd level spell cure 60 points of damage over 60 rounds to everyone within 20 ft (with a modest +3 caster level, Thaumaturgist 3 or a Planar Touchstone in the Positive Energy Plane and Stalwart Planar Ally, and Extend Spell). Personally, I'd rather have those options. I mean, just having the option to not fight with Dire Bears and fight with Greater Earth Elementals means that you are better off not being an Alienist. In a worse case scenario where they are only hitting on one of two attacks, they surpass the Psuedonatual Dire Bear's average damage vs Good and Neutral creatures in the first round (assuming full attacks for both kinds of Bears). Next it is not unreasonable to ask for the ability to summon other creatures from the far realms/Xoriot. And any feats that give other powers/templates to summoned creatures may be applied to these creatures afterwards. No, its not unreasonable to assume that our DM will let you trade out monsters you can summon for other ones; however, how many Far Realm creatures are there? I can only think of 3-4 that have been published. So unless the DM adds 52 monsters to your list, you are getting cheated of problem solving and tactical options, as well as raw combat ability. (The list actually increases if you count the additions in the Monster Manuals [II, III, and Fiend Folio], Complete books, and the Planar Handbook, and if you count that the "any" listing for elementals and mephits also means that things like Ice Elementals are also technically on the list.) With the rules as written, Alienists fall quite short. Any argument based on "and then my DM changes the Rules As Written and makes Alienists better" is destined to fall short. Now I’m not saying that all summoners need to be alienists. Just the ones who want to be any good. (Actually I’m not saying that either. Alienists are actually quite effective and really flavorful characters, and I assume someday another summoner will be their equal) I won't fault alienists on flavor. They have that, even if it is weird and not good for party play. But tactically speaking, at best an Alienist is a little bit better than just taking core Wizard levels. At worst, it hopelessly railroads you into a weak position. Personally, I'd rather be good all of the time rather than being a little better than good in a very specific circumstance and crippled the rest of the time.
stembolt 08-31-05, 09:19 AM	The only problem here is that in practice I know that it is worth it. I have had an unusual amount of summoners both in characters I played and DMed. The difference has been startling. The only loss is utility. creatures that fly or move through the earth. Aside from that the characters go from "why can't" any of my creatures hit?" to "take that fiend."
Jimbo19 08-31-05, 11:18 AM	where can i find arcane disciple?
K 08-31-05, 03:21 PM	The only problem here is that in practice I know that it is worth it. I have had an unusual amount of summoners both in characters I played and DMed. The difference has been startling. The only loss is utility. creatures that fly or move through the earth. Aside from that the characters go from "why can't" any of my creatures hit?" to "take that fiend." The numbers don't support that viewpoint, but I think I know where its coming from. Alienists excel in only one field. That field is the "fire and forget" style of monster summoning. First, the "fire and forget" style of summoning involves not researching all your monsters. Most people are not aware that at any one spell level there are only a few great choices for combat monsters and the rest of that level's list for is utility monsters or "special circumstances"(SC) monsters. When someone chooses a utility or SC monster to fight in a "equal CR to your level" combat, they will be heartily disappointed by its combat performance. A Psuedonatural monster will at least get the first hit, even if its the worse possible monster for that situation. Secondly, since the pseudonatural monster is autohitting on the very first strike, you can cast low-level summoning spells every turn and have them hit your enemies before taking a hit or two and dropping. This keeps up a steady flow of small amounts of damage at the expense of wasting large amounts of spell slots. Now, if a non-Alienist tried this tactic, he'd be quite frustrated. Summoning poorly suited and underleveled monsters into a high CR encounter is a recipe for disaster. Personally, I don't like this tactic with or without an Alienist. My standards are too high. I demand a steady flow of large amounts of damage. To reach this end, I research every monster available to me so that I can summon the best monster for the situation, I cast highly synergistic spells to aid those monsters, and I summon only the most powerful monsters to deal with the most powerful enemies. In addition, I pre-mark certain monsters for utility roles so that I know every utility option available to me (I've always liked the Dretch Stink Corp, a tactic that involves summoning Dretches to cast Stinking Cloud and cripple an army's ability to fight. Five Stinking Clouds in one round is quite nice against large numbers of level 1-2 enemies). I also like to conserve spell slots in order to maximize my contributions to the party and to the adventure. For my overall strategy, called the "being an awesome Conjuror and player" strategy, taking a level of Alienist is a huge hindrance. But, if you are the kind of player that doesn't want to work very hard and doesn't need to be very good, then Alienist is for you. It turns the art of summoning into a foolproof exercise of making a minimum contribution to party. For a "beer and pretzels" game, its perfect. You might even want to play a Sorcerer in order to free yourself up from choosing spells before every adventuring day. I wouldn't recommend it, though. Even a Core-rules Evoker is going to out-damage you and add more to the party.
sornet 08-31-05, 03:48 PM	where can i find arcane disciple? Arcane Disciple, Complete Divine, pg. 79
stembolt 08-31-05, 08:15 PM	Five Stinking Clouds in one round is quite nice against large numbers of level 1-2 enemies). That’s probably the most telling statement right there. Summoned creatures spell like abilities are generally underpowered given their level. Against level appropriate foes the abilities are, not useless, but underpowered. Rarely will it not simply be better to cast the spell yourself. Generally summoned creatures bolster and support the rest of the party more than they accomplish anything themselves (again that’s vs. appropriate threat levels).
K 08-31-05, 08:31 PM	That’s probably the most telling statement right there. Summoned creatures spell like abilities are generally underpowered given their level. Against level appropriate foes the abilities are, not useless, but underpowered. Rarely will it not simply be better to cast the spell yourself. Generally summoned creatures bolster and support the rest of the party more than they accomplish anything themselves (again that’s vs. appropriate threat levels). What's your point? And how does it prove that Alienist Conjururs are better than non-Alienist Conjurors?
stembolt 08-31-05, 09:32 PM	What's your point? And how does it prove that Alienist Conjururs are better than non-Alienist Conjurors? Summoners. Conjurers are a different animal. At any rate it doesn’t. It just shows how you arrived at your false conclusions.
Nifft 08-31-05, 10:25 PM	Alienist was teh k3wl back when you could summon pseudonatural elementals, and devils, and such. Now it is clearly teh suxx0rz. "Hi, I'd like to sell my Sanity for a reduction in summoning options." "Sorry, pal, if you're eager to trade, your Sanity isn't worth much." -- N