All the Gish are great, but... [Archive] - Wizards Community

All the Gish are great, but... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
littlesaltz
01-06-04, 06:13 PM ...they tend to be 20 level builds.

I'm going to be making a new 4th level character, probably Ftr 1/Wiz 3, who will be aiming for Spellsword. In the meantime, I'd like to be able to melee some (my party is lacking that).

With the elimination of many 1 hr/level buffs in 3.5, this seems difficult. Right now, I'm probably going to specialize to get some more spells. My ideas for spells include an Extended Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Weapon, and False Life. Playing an Elf, I can hopefully get a +3 Dex bonus for an AC of at least 17 (probably 18 from a Ring of Protection).

I'll have the proficiencies for armor, so I'd like to use long term buffs, then put the armor on. Right now, the only long term buff seems to be Mage Armor, which eliminates the need for regular armor....

Suggestions/ideas?

Thanks.
JosephKell
01-06-04, 06:41 PM Focus on your weapons and combat options. Center your spells around that. I'm not going to lie to you, Gish are difficult to play effectively. But it is MUCH easier with a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard. There is a lot of, "blah blah blah, level behind on spells, blah blah blah, limited spell knowledge, blah blah blah" But when it comes down to it, your spells are like your feats. So you want to be able to use them a lot.

Three 1st level spells: Mage Armor, Color Spray, Mount.

True strike is hard to use as it requires you to use a standard action to cast it, and then you have one round to attack.

If you don't want to bother with Mount (but it is a very viable option), take Feather Fall instead. That way you don't have to worry so much about ranks in climb (although without armor, your modifier is probably equal to a Dwarf Fighter with his armor check penalty).

Just carry a Lance, a sword (or halberd), and a ranged weapon (shortbow will do).

You can use Mount to suddenly have a mount for 2 hours/caster level that you can lance from.

A wizard has 2 1st and 1 2nd level spell at level 3. A sorcerer has 5 1st level spells. Funny... a Sorcerer has more KNOWN spells at level 3 than a Wizard has spells per day (just something to think about).

Sorcerers are just better at it.

But you will probably stay with Wizard anyway.

But for feats you have 3 (or 4 if human).

So I suggest Improved Initiative and Combat Casting. Then maybe Weapon Focus to offset your penalty.
Snow Savant
01-06-04, 06:43 PM Your current direction looks pretty good. You may wish to become an Abjurer, with opposite schools of Evocation & Enchantment (you don't need no stinkin' charm spells!). This way you can be sure to have additional defensive spells at the ready. Evocation is a tough loss, but when you get Channel Spell (from Spellsword), there are a bunch of other good spells you can channel from the other classes.

Since you are a Wizard-3, the Alter Self spell should definitely be in your repertoire. Assuming the form of a Troglodyte will give you a natural armor bonus of +6, which is pretty sweet.

I don't have my books with me right now, but I think there is a Familiar who gives you a natural armor bonus of +1. Hedgehog maybe? Anyone?

XO,
Snow :)
JosephKell
01-06-04, 06:57 PM Rage, Heroism, and Greater Heroism are enchantment spells. And Hold Person is a GREAT spell to channel.

Gish can't really specialize as anything but Diviners... but how useful is divination to a Gish? True Strike, See Invisibility, Arcane Sight, Scrying, Rary's Telepathic Bond (this is a fun spell), True Seeing, Greater Arcane Sight or Greater Scrying (switch off those on and off days), Moment of Prescience.

Few Gish get 9th level spells (and if they do you have to wonder what they gave up, and it is usually BAB). But if they did, Foresight is nice (the +2 to Reflex can help salvage the clumsiness of most Gish).
Snow Savant
01-06-04, 07:12 PM My suggestions to LittleSaltz were to min/max his immediate metagame concerns and preferences. I tend to think Diviners are the best specialists in the game as well. But having a spare True Strike and Detect Thoughts at his level 4 character may not be the strongest angle he can take at this point.

One of the other problems with suggesting Diviners to many players is the potential dislike, shoddy ajudication/mechanics, & uncooperativeness of many DM's with divination spells. So beyond suggesting that as a primary best specialist, I usually like to offer a secondary one as well (for cases like the above). Littlesaltz sounds like defense & AC is a crux issue for his character, hence Abjuration. Which is also an excellent Specialist to take as well. You can never argue with an extra Dispel Magic, Protection Against Evil, etc.

Rage, Heroism, and Greater Heroism are enchantment spells. And Hold Person is a GREAT spell to channel.

True. But using all the spells published so far, you can find equivalent spells at each level with just as much efficacy. Although I do dig the Heroism spells.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
JosephKell
01-06-04, 07:19 PM I agree about the Divinations. I was running a game and a player used Divination, so I had to think of a rhyme to "answer" the question. Granted the player misinterrepted what I thought was an obvious thing and started running around people's shacks without totally communicating his plan.

But the Wizard's shortage of spells per day (even with a decent Intelligence of 16) severly hinders its effectiveness as a Gish. Aside from the having to prepare spells in advance (which just sucks even more).

Edit: Think of Gish as the lower hp version of a Barbarian. You have to go for damage, i.e. two-handed weapon. Barbarians have crappy AC also, but they make up for it with lots of hp.

"Mounted" Combat would make sense (Mounted as in riding the Mount spell, which lasts 2 hours a caster level).

If you do decide to go Wizard, don't bother preparing Extend Mage Armor because if that was your plan, you should've just gone Sorcerer and use 2 of your spells to get the same duration (although you won't waste duration between those encounters). Same with any Extended first level spell...
Elmaster of Thay
01-06-04, 07:24 PM Originally posted by JosephKell

You can use Mount to suddenly have a mount for 2 hours/caster level that you can lance from.

Just a small detail. Remember that the mount the spell gives you isn't combat trained, so using it on a fight isn't such a good idea. A ride DC of 20 that takes a move action on every round or lose the round...
JosephKell
01-06-04, 07:34 PM Originally posted by Elmaster of Thay
Just a small detail. Remember that the mount the spell gives you isn't combat trained, so using it on a fight isn't such a good idea. A ride DC of 20 that takes a move action on every round or lose the round... Too bad you can't cast Rage or Heroism on it... *laugh*

Well Light Warhorses aren't so expensive, then you can use the Mount spell for something else... There just aren't many good level 1 spells for Gish.. Most are too short a duration, effect an enemy (which you hopefully kill before it expires in the case of Ray of Enfeeblement), or doesn't work. Perhaps just Mage Armor, Color Spray, and Burning Hands (if you hit even 2 foes the spell is more effective than Magic Missile).
pawsplay
01-06-04, 08:48 PM Divination is nice, but mostly at higher levels, for recon, and of course, for combinining with Power Attack.
littlesaltz
01-06-04, 09:52 PM Heh, never realized quite how fast these boards are. Thanks for all the responses!

JosephKell: I don't think that mounted combat is an effective combat style for a wizard if Mount doesn't work. It certainly isn't the end of the world, but I'm not sure if I see the advantage of worrying about a permanent mount; the spell would be nice because it lasts so long but is dismissable.

I will seriously consider the sorceror option. Seems like sound min/maxing and fits my character well.

You called the gish a lower hp version of the barbarian. The fact that a Barbarian would have almost twice as many hitpoints as me, ignoring a possibly larger con modifier and rage, makes me wonder about the validity of the analogy. A Barbarian can afford to have a crappy AC; a gish...?

SnowSavant: You know, I never looked at Alter Self. Thanks.

I was sorted disappointed that the toad got nerfed (completely justly); I'll have to look for other familiars.

Yeah, defense and survivability are my prime concerns. My party has a rogue and monk who are fairly adept at dealing damage, but aren't so good at taking it. I know that a Wizard won't be great either, but I'd like to help out.

As far as specialization, I would probably take Abjuration; it's not a terrible min/max option and fits my character nicely.

Thanks to everybody for the great responses.
Eagle Prince
01-07-04, 03:29 AM I'm working on a fighter/spellsword build also, and trying to make it so you could play him from 1st to 20th level. One cool thing that fighter/mage has over regular mage in the familiar department are these cool new improved familiar choices in Complete Warrior that you need good BAB to get, like a blink dog or winter wolf. Some can even be used as a mount, like hippogriph and howler. Plus it gets familiar abilities, which means all of your feats and skills, improved evasion, share spells, empathy link, and Alterness if he is close (which you'd both get since you actually get the feat and the familiar gets all your feats). Familiars are just so danged cool now.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
littlesaltz 01-06-04, 06:13 PM	...they tend to be 20 level builds. I'm going to be making a new 4th level character, probably Ftr 1/Wiz 3, who will be aiming for Spellsword. In the meantime, I'd like to be able to melee some (my party is lacking that). With the elimination of many 1 hr/level buffs in 3.5, this seems difficult. Right now, I'm probably going to specialize to get some more spells. My ideas for spells include an Extended Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Weapon, and False Life. Playing an Elf, I can hopefully get a +3 Dex bonus for an AC of at least 17 (probably 18 from a Ring of Protection). I'll have the proficiencies for armor, so I'd like to use long term buffs, then put the armor on. Right now, the only long term buff seems to be Mage Armor, which eliminates the need for regular armor.... Suggestions/ideas? Thanks.
JosephKell 01-06-04, 06:41 PM	Focus on your weapons and combat options. Center your spells around that. I'm not going to lie to you, Gish are difficult to play effectively. But it is MUCH easier with a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard. There is a lot of, "blah blah blah, level behind on spells, blah blah blah, limited spell knowledge, blah blah blah" But when it comes down to it, your spells are like your feats. So you want to be able to use them a lot. Three 1st level spells: Mage Armor, Color Spray, Mount. True strike is hard to use as it requires you to use a standard action to cast it, and then you have one round to attack. If you don't want to bother with Mount (but it is a very viable option), take Feather Fall instead. That way you don't have to worry so much about ranks in climb (although without armor, your modifier is probably equal to a Dwarf Fighter with his armor check penalty). Just carry a Lance, a sword (or halberd), and a ranged weapon (shortbow will do). You can use Mount to suddenly have a mount for 2 hours/caster level that you can lance from. A wizard has 2 1st and 1 2nd level spell at level 3. A sorcerer has 5 1st level spells. Funny... a Sorcerer has more KNOWN spells at level 3 than a Wizard has spells per day (just something to think about). Sorcerers are just better at it. But you will probably stay with Wizard anyway. But for feats you have 3 (or 4 if human). So I suggest Improved Initiative and Combat Casting. Then maybe Weapon Focus to offset your penalty.
Snow Savant 01-06-04, 06:43 PM	Your current direction looks pretty good. You may wish to become an Abjurer, with opposite schools of Evocation & Enchantment (you don't need no stinkin' charm spells!). This way you can be sure to have additional defensive spells at the ready. Evocation is a tough loss, but when you get Channel Spell (from Spellsword), there are a bunch of other good spells you can channel from the other classes. Since you are a Wizard-3, the Alter Self spell should definitely be in your repertoire. Assuming the form of a Troglodyte will give you a natural armor bonus of +6, which is pretty sweet. I don't have my books with me right now, but I think there is a Familiar who gives you a natural armor bonus of +1. Hedgehog maybe? Anyone? XO, Snow :)
JosephKell 01-06-04, 06:57 PM	Rage, Heroism, and Greater Heroism are enchantment spells. And Hold Person is a GREAT spell to channel. Gish can't really specialize as anything but Diviners... but how useful is divination to a Gish? True Strike, See Invisibility, Arcane Sight, Scrying, Rary's Telepathic Bond (this is a fun spell), True Seeing, Greater Arcane Sight or Greater Scrying (switch off those on and off days), Moment of Prescience. Few Gish get 9th level spells (and if they do you have to wonder what they gave up, and it is usually BAB). But if they did, Foresight is nice (the +2 to Reflex can help salvage the clumsiness of most Gish).
Snow Savant 01-06-04, 07:12 PM	My suggestions to LittleSaltz were to min/max his immediate metagame concerns and preferences. I tend to think Diviners are the best specialists in the game as well. But having a spare True Strike and Detect Thoughts at his level 4 character may not be the strongest angle he can take at this point. One of the other problems with suggesting Diviners to many players is the potential dislike, shoddy ajudication/mechanics, & uncooperativeness of many DM's with divination spells. So beyond suggesting that as a primary best specialist, I usually like to offer a secondary one as well (for cases like the above). Littlesaltz sounds like defense & AC is a crux issue for his character, hence Abjuration. Which is also an excellent Specialist to take as well. You can never argue with an extra Dispel Magic, Protection Against Evil, etc. Rage, Heroism, and Greater Heroism are enchantment spells. And Hold Person is a GREAT spell to channel. True. But using all the spells published so far, you can find equivalent spells at each level with just as much efficacy. Although I do dig the Heroism spells. XO, Snow :cloud9:
JosephKell 01-06-04, 07:19 PM	I agree about the Divinations. I was running a game and a player used Divination, so I had to think of a rhyme to "answer" the question. Granted the player misinterrepted what I thought was an obvious thing and started running around people's shacks without totally communicating his plan. But the Wizard's shortage of spells per day (even with a decent Intelligence of 16) severly hinders its effectiveness as a Gish. Aside from the having to prepare spells in advance (which just sucks even more). Edit: Think of Gish as the lower hp version of a Barbarian. You have to go for damage, i.e. two-handed weapon. Barbarians have crappy AC also, but they make up for it with lots of hp. "Mounted" Combat would make sense (Mounted as in riding the Mount spell, which lasts 2 hours a caster level). If you do decide to go Wizard, don't bother preparing Extend Mage Armor because if that was your plan, you should've just gone Sorcerer and use 2 of your spells to get the same duration (although you won't waste duration between those encounters). Same with any Extended first level spell...
Elmaster of Thay 01-06-04, 07:24 PM	Originally posted by JosephKell You can use Mount to suddenly have a mount for 2 hours/caster level that you can lance from. Just a small detail. Remember that the mount the spell gives you isn't combat trained, so using it on a fight isn't such a good idea. A ride DC of 20 that takes a move action on every round or lose the round...
JosephKell 01-06-04, 07:34 PM	Originally posted by Elmaster of Thay Just a small detail. Remember that the mount the spell gives you isn't combat trained, so using it on a fight isn't such a good idea. A ride DC of 20 that takes a move action on every round or lose the round... Too bad you can't cast Rage or Heroism on it... laugh Well Light Warhorses aren't so expensive, then you can use the Mount spell for something else... There just aren't many good level 1 spells for Gish.. Most are too short a duration, effect an enemy (which you hopefully kill before it expires in the case of Ray of Enfeeblement), or doesn't work. Perhaps just Mage Armor, Color Spray, and Burning Hands (if you hit even 2 foes the spell is more effective than Magic Missile).
pawsplay 01-06-04, 08:48 PM	Divination is nice, but mostly at higher levels, for recon, and of course, for combinining with Power Attack.
littlesaltz 01-06-04, 09:52 PM	Heh, never realized quite how fast these boards are. Thanks for all the responses! JosephKell: I don't think that mounted combat is an effective combat style for a wizard if Mount doesn't work. It certainly isn't the end of the world, but I'm not sure if I see the advantage of worrying about a permanent mount; the spell would be nice because it lasts so long but is dismissable. I will seriously consider the sorceror option. Seems like sound min/maxing and fits my character well. You called the gish a lower hp version of the barbarian. The fact that a Barbarian would have almost twice as many hitpoints as me, ignoring a possibly larger con modifier and rage, makes me wonder about the validity of the analogy. A Barbarian can afford to have a crappy AC; a gish...? SnowSavant: You know, I never looked at Alter Self. Thanks. I was sorted disappointed that the toad got nerfed (completely justly); I'll have to look for other familiars. Yeah, defense and survivability are my prime concerns. My party has a rogue and monk who are fairly adept at dealing damage, but aren't so good at taking it. I know that a Wizard won't be great either, but I'd like to help out. As far as specialization, I would probably take Abjuration; it's not a terrible min/max option and fits my character nicely. Thanks to everybody for the great responses.
Eagle Prince 01-07-04, 03:29 AM	I'm working on a fighter/spellsword build also, and trying to make it so you could play him from 1st to 20th level. One cool thing that fighter/mage has over regular mage in the familiar department are these cool new improved familiar choices in Complete Warrior that you need good BAB to get, like a blink dog or winter wolf. Some can even be used as a mount, like hippogriph and howler. Plus it gets familiar abilities, which means all of your feats and skills, improved evasion, share spells, empathy link, and Alterness if he is close (which you'd both get since you actually get the feat and the familiar gets all your feats). Familiars are just so danged cool now.