Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Karkul 09-02-04, 07:02 AM	Flipping through the BoED I sort of caught notice of the Anointed Knight for the first time. Not really a terrific PrC imho but the unicorns blood ravage weapon ability gave me an idea for a character that sucks the strength out of his enemies. Sorcerer 6 Paladin 2 Spellsword 10 Anointed Knight 2 *note: charisma must be 20+ prior to entering Anointed Knight PrC -Only feats specifically needed are Ancestral Relic (prereq for AK) and Two weapon fighting, Arcane strike would be good also. Any double weapon will do, but quarterstaff is best since it doesnt require an extra feat. Both ends need to have the same enchantments; +1 Spellstoring and Enfeebling (BoED +1 enhancement, target takes 1d6+2 str dmg, no save :mymy: ). Prior to combat you want to have both of your spellstored ends charged with...you guessed it, Ray of Enfeeblement. You also want to channel 2 Ray of Enfeeblements (via spellswords lv10 multi-channel) into your weapon. When combat starts trigger your Arcane Strike just to help insure all your hits connect, and the fun starts. *note: My example only requires 2 hits, one with each end of your quarterstaff. 2*(1d6+5) = Spell Storing Wpns 2*(1d6+2) = Enfeeblement Weapon Enchantment 2*(1d6+5) = Multi-Channel total = 30-60 str damage w/o possibility of save. However, the ray of enfeeblement spell will not take a subject below zero...but the unicorn's blood ravage from Anointed Knight will. +1d3/1d4 (DC 17) So all you need to do is keep wacking them until they fail a DC 17. One could argue that the weapon enchantment enfeeblement could take them below 1 (since it does not mention this restriction), but I like it better this way.
Sang-Drax 09-02-04, 07:23 AM	The problem is, Ray Of Enfeeblement is *not* ability damage and it doesn't stack with itself. It's just a temporary reduction... you would only use the best number of all your hits.
Karkul 09-02-04, 07:37 AM	Can you direct me to that in the SRD? I couldnt find anything saying that, and if its the case it seems directly conflicting with many monsters special attacks. p.s. the part about ability damage does mention that some spells are different, but it says they are different because all ability damage goes away at the end of the spell. Nothing about not stacking is mentioned. And actually, in the brief description for the spell, it does call the effect strength damage.
fiftyvolts 09-02-04, 09:10 AM	The spell does not stack with itself because it is not damage of any kind; it is just a penalty to strength. And penalties from the same do not stack.
TheDarkLord 09-02-04, 09:54 AM	The spell does not stack with itself because it is not damage of any kind; it is just a penalty to strength. And penalties from the same do not stack. Now, could you direct me to that? I was under t he impression, if i one hand severely cut I took a penalty on all activities involving that hand, should my other hand ever be cut bad, then Iwould take even a greater penalty due to the stacking of the penalties together?
olothfaern 09-02-04, 10:14 AM	...to answer out of turn. If you define a penalty as a negative bonus (makes sense right?) and identical bonuses don't stack with each other, why would identical penalties?
TheDarkLord 09-02-04, 10:31 AM	I view penaltie's and bonus' seperately. Why do you get a bonus for being on higher ground and why do you get a bonus if the character is kneeling also? I just want a reference to where it say's penalties dont stack. Those two above bonus' i mentioned do. I don't have my DMG handy it may be in there or the PHB which i also don't have with me. I just want to know Where and Why?
Enoch Van Garret 09-02-04, 12:25 PM	PHB specifically mentions it in the spell description of ray of enfeeblement - it lists the str reduction as an 'enhancement penalty', as opposed to ability damage or drain. And, as we all know from Bonus Stacking 101, enhancement anything never stacks with either itself or enhancement anything else.
olothfaern 09-02-04, 12:26 PM	Why do you get a bonus for being on higher ground and why do you get a bonus if the character is kneeling also? ...notice that the two above aren't identical bonuses...
Karkul 09-02-04, 12:45 PM	PHB specifically mentions it in the spell description of ray of enfeeblement - it lists the str reduction as an 'enhancement penalty', as opposed to ability damage or drain. And, as we all know from Bonus Stacking 101, enhancement anything never stacks with either itself or enhancement anything else. The only mention of an enhancement penalty is from the 3.0 book. The 3.5 description does not mention it at all, and in fact, in the short description is refers to the effect as "strength damage" which definitly DOES stack. Maybe im just trying to rationalize it (i've been known to do that), but it seems to me if it was in the 3.0 book and is not in the 3.5, that was no accident. ...to answer out of turn. If you define a penalty as a negative bonus (makes sense right?) and identical bonuses don't stack with each other, why would identical penalties? Actually I dont agree with this at all. This is the if A = B and B = C then A = C rational, and it is wrong in many cases. ability damage is a penalty and it stacks, ability drain is a penalty and it stacks, negative levels are a penalty and they stack. The list could go on and on. I just dont see this as a set precedent in the DND rules, if anything its contrary to them. Regardless of the outcome of this, another str sapper you could add is the weakening touch feat from CW. Stunning Fist-like attack that imposes -6 str on a hit.
Himosan 09-02-04, 01:41 PM	The only mention of an enhancement penalty is from the 3.0 book. The 3.5 description does not mention it at all, and in fact, in the short description is refers to the effect as "strength damage" which definitly DOES stack. Maybe im just trying to rationalize it (i've been known to do that), but it seems to me if it was in the 3.0 book and is not in the 3.5, that was no accident. Yes and the reason is that penalties do not have a type in 3.5*. Nb: if it explicitly says it doesn't stack with itself in 3.5 then that too might not be an accident. * PHB p311: "Penalites do not have a type and always stack with other penalties (except those from the same source) unless otherwise stated."
Wearer of Purple 09-02-04, 01:51 PM	I agree with Karkul: From The Player's Handbook Ray of Enfeeblement Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: Ray Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1. No where is the word Enhancement listed. The words also imply that it can be done more than once, although I concede that it is quite ambiguous.
Wearer of Purple 09-02-04, 01:56 PM	Himosan: I stand corrected :banghead:
Enoch Van Garret 09-02-04, 01:57 PM	The 'enhancement penalty' is from the 3.0 spell description. I was unaware this spell had changed. However, the quote text listed in Himosan's post makes it fairly clear, at least to me, that as penalties do not stack with themselves, multiple applications of Ray of Enfeeblement, from whatever source, do not stack. The words also imply that it can be done more than once, although I concede that it is quite ambiguous. I fail to see this - from my understanding, the spell implies only a single application from the spell description, and states that that application cannot reduce a subject's strength score below 1 (for example, if cast on a target with a str of 10 and a 6 is rolled on the die with maximum applicable caster level).
Kyndig 09-02-04, 04:59 PM	From the SRD: "Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies." Two castings of Ray of Enfeeblement would be two identical spells operating on the same target, so only the "best" one applies. Therefore, you only suffer the effects of the single worst penalty from the spell. They don't stack.
potsick 09-02-04, 06:17 PM	Two castings of Ray of Enfeeblement would be two identical spells operating on the same target, so only the "best" one applies. Therefore, you only suffer the effects of the single worst penalty from the spell. They don't stack. I'd have to agree with this. If the spell was instantaneous in duration then maybe they could stack, but the spell has a duration of 1 min/level and therefore while the effect of the spell is happening another effect from the same spell will not stack. You don't even have to look into the whole stackable penalty argument.
Karkul 09-02-04, 06:21 PM	"Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies." Two castings of Ray of Enfeeblement would be two identical spells operating on the same target, so only the "best" one applies. Therefore, you only suffer the effects of the single worst penalty from the spell. They don't stack. I see what you are saying, but I just dont agree with that interpretation.This does not refer spells that take effect instantaneously. It says identical spells that are operating, not that have taken effect.This quote is for spells with sustained effects such as cloudkill or acid arrow.
potsick 09-02-04, 06:32 PM	According the the SRD it does have a duration of 1 minute per level. Thats not how long you have to shoot the ray but how long the effect is in place. Therefore if a third level caster drains 5 points of strength from something then that strength returns after 3 minutes. To me that indicates that the effect is not just instantaneous (which implies permanent or until some form of recovering the loss is used).
Nazzareth 09-02-04, 09:23 PM	Ray of enfeeblement can not stack with itself but it can stack with touch of fatigue, ray of exhustion, chill touch, contagion (blinding sickness & red ache) and bestow curse to name a few spells that it works with. Try a str damaging poison as well. Try this one on for size a 10th level spellsword with a spell storing weapon could get three of these spell of in a round, four with two spell storing weapons or a double weapon, five spells per round with a quickend spell such as ray of exhustion, then add a dose of poison to your weapon(s).
Mdar 09-02-04, 11:09 PM	* PHB p311: "Penalites do not have a type and always stack with other penalties (except those from the same source) unless otherwise stated." You omitted the part about Die rolls. Now, it does effect die rolls in a round about way, so it's probably just semantics. As for the actuall ruling, ask yourself if bulls str would stack with it self. The answer is simply "no" Ray of enfeeblement works the same way for the most part. Also, it would be a redundent effect. Such as having two charm spells in effect on the same target. Both are working, but only the most recent/highest level one is active. But both have to be dispelled. So with this build, you would max out on ray of efeeblement sooner or later for a -11 to str for a -5 penalty. But the spell won't stack on top of itself. And you really don't want to argue this point with a DM, cause if this spell can stack with itself, then spells like 'Nature's favour" and 'Greater magic weapon' can stack with themselves as well, not to mention spells that up stats.
Karkul 09-02-04, 11:52 PM	I give up *sets build on fire* :weep: This brings up a question for me however. The touch of golden ice feat from BoED, does it not stack with itself then i.e. only one use per victim?
malaegoth 09-03-04, 12:05 AM	Enfeebling from BoED is critical only Touch of Golden Ice stacks because it is damage, not a penalty.
Karkul 09-03-04, 12:10 AM	Enfeebling from BoED is critical only LOL I totally caught that the first time I read it and thought this build up and I dismissed the idea, and then I forgot it again and well here we are. Actually though the effect from the weapon enchantment enfeebling says its temporary strength damage, so its different from the spell ray of enfeeblement.