Allied Defence & Improved Combat Expertise (Easy 100+ to AC) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Allied Defence & Improved Combat Expertise (Easy 100+ to AC) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Esponer
07-27-06, 09:33 PM Allied Defence: Shining South, Page 19
Improved Combat Expertise: Complete Warrior, Page 100

This isn't a build, nor a question: it's just a suggestion for any future CO builds. When your character is at 20th level, you can easily have a 17th level cohort fighter with BAB 17, standing next to you and providing you with +17 AC as a dodge bonus. It's quite handy.

It can get worse. Replace the fighter cohort with an XXX 7 / War Chanter 10. You have at least 133 followers, although you only need a few here (you could get more crazy if you needed to). Take four of those with you wherever you go, and have your war chanter friend use inspire legion. Now, all six of you have BAB 20 (or however high your BAB is — or the war chanter's, if you have low BAB). Have the other five all use Improved Combat Expertise and Allied Defence, and enjoy the +100 dodge AC bonus to you and your allies. If your allies do manage to get themselves killed (probably to a spell), have them replaced with your 129 others and hire some more followers later.

+100 AC is quite handy.

As an aside, if you're considering implementing some of this but think it's too much, consider that a "lite" version might actually help you. If you're in a battle and are hitting less than 50% of the time (clearly, you have not optimised much!), using Improved Combat Expertise and Power Attack both to their maximum with a Blessed (+1) weapon with at least a x3 critical multiplier will probably raise your average damage (from natural 20s) whilst rendering your AC sufficiently high. This is just a general tip for passersby who wanted to take something from this without being extremely abusive.

I hope nobody minds a somewhat "different" topic. If anyone's interested and wants to take this further, feel free. Also, don't point out the flaws here (unless it's "This doesn't work!), because this is only a suggestion for any builds that might benefit, not something along the lines of "Oh my god! I just found a way to beat Pun-Pun!"

In case anybody noticed, I posted about making a halberdier a little while ago. I forgot to reply and thank everyone, but the topic's gone way down now and I don't want to resurrect it just to say thank you. Anyway, I took some suggestions there and built something a little nasty. I noticed Allied Defence in the D&D Feats Index, and whilst I assumed it was probably bad ("when you take a penalty of at least -2 to your attack rolls with Combat Expertise, one ally near you that you choose gets a +1 to their AC", for instance), I checked it out — a friend had Shining South.

Course, it wasn't bad. Your CE bonus to all adjacent allies? Very nice. Even with just CE. But of course, ICE changes all that. I wanted the halberdier to do it on his own, ruining his ability to attack whilst in the process making his allies and himself very hard to hit. The DM banned it anyway, but I've gone for Supernatural Opportunist and am happy with that.

I then realised that I would do more damage with full PA and full ICE than with none of either, thanks to my Blessed halberd. Then it occurred to me that a sensible person would use a cohort. Finally, as I was reading Complete Warrior at the time, using war chanter suddenly came to mind.
Sir_Maximus
07-27-06, 09:36 PM If you did that, the DM would likely find a way to kill you ;). Rule 0 - DM says you're dead so you're dead lol
Esponer
07-27-06, 09:41 PM If you did that, the DM would likely find a way to kill you ;). Rule 0 - DM says you're dead so you're dead lol
Indeed! I added a background section in an SBLOCK, since I know I'd want to read how people found things like that. I did in fact try a minor version of this with my DM, to which he quite resoundingly said no. Now I just sidestep away from breath attacks and reply to elan's resilience by attacking again, thanks to Supernatural Opportunist.

I don't think it's too unbalanced if you just use the two feats on your own, unless you start full power attacking after calculating it'll improve your average damage. It can get insane if you use Small cohorts with Close-Quarters Fighting stacked together giving you an AC over 300. Though after a while there's no point bothering, and there are a sufficient number of inadequacies with just using this plan on its own that you couldn't rely on it solely: not when the meteor swarm arrived.
Xeraph
07-30-06, 11:28 AM It is an old trick, but quite powerful, you can find it in the Feat Combos thread that is floating around.

As a sidenote, Quickstaff and Swarmfighting could turn out very usefull with all those goblin followers. Hehe.

Cheers.
King_Bulba
07-31-06, 03:54 AM A char in my group did this. The tuaric dino/halfing would use shock trooper and lower ac while the other PC was on his back with allied defense to offest it. A NASTY combo!

Luckly my DM is not of the DM vs PC minset(which is good) and enjoys us killing stuff way past our CR like we do. Trust me if my DM wanted to kill us WITHOUT rule 0 he can and has.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Esponer 07-27-06, 09:33 PM	Allied Defence: Shining South, Page 19 Improved Combat Expertise: Complete Warrior, Page 100 This isn't a build, nor a question: it's just a suggestion for any future CO builds. When your character is at 20th level, you can easily have a 17th level cohort fighter with BAB 17, standing next to you and providing you with +17 AC as a dodge bonus. It's quite handy. It can get worse. Replace the fighter cohort with an XXX 7 / War Chanter 10. You have at least 133 followers, although you only need a few here (you could get more crazy if you needed to). Take four of those with you wherever you go, and have your war chanter friend use inspire legion. Now, all six of you have BAB 20 (or however high your BAB is — or the war chanter's, if you have low BAB). Have the other five all use Improved Combat Expertise and Allied Defence, and enjoy the +100 dodge AC bonus to you and your allies. If your allies do manage to get themselves killed (probably to a spell), have them replaced with your 129 others and hire some more followers later. +100 AC is quite handy. As an aside, if you're considering implementing some of this but think it's too much, consider that a "lite" version might actually help you. If you're in a battle and are hitting less than 50% of the time (clearly, you have not optimised much!), using Improved Combat Expertise and Power Attack both to their maximum with a Blessed (+1) weapon with at least a x3 critical multiplier will probably raise your average damage (from natural 20s) whilst rendering your AC sufficiently high. This is just a general tip for passersby who wanted to take something from this without being extremely abusive. I hope nobody minds a somewhat "different" topic. If anyone's interested and wants to take this further, feel free. Also, don't point out the flaws here (unless it's "This doesn't work!), because this is only a suggestion for any builds that might benefit, not something along the lines of "Oh my god! I just found a way to beat Pun-Pun!" In case anybody noticed, I posted about making a halberdier a little while ago. I forgot to reply and thank everyone, but the topic's gone way down now and I don't want to resurrect it just to say thank you. Anyway, I took some suggestions there and built something a little nasty. I noticed Allied Defence in the D&D Feats Index, and whilst I assumed it was probably bad ("when you take a penalty of at least -2 to your attack rolls with Combat Expertise, one ally near you that you choose gets a +1 to their AC", for instance), I checked it out — a friend had Shining South. Course, it wasn't bad. Your CE bonus to all adjacent allies? Very nice. Even with just CE. But of course, ICE changes all that. I wanted the halberdier to do it on his own, ruining his ability to attack whilst in the process making his allies and himself very hard to hit. The DM banned it anyway, but I've gone for Supernatural Opportunist and am happy with that. I then realised that I would do more damage with full PA and full ICE than with none of either, thanks to my Blessed halberd. Then it occurred to me that a sensible person would use a cohort. Finally, as I was reading Complete Warrior at the time, using war chanter suddenly came to mind.
Sir_Maximus 07-27-06, 09:36 PM	If you did that, the DM would likely find a way to kill you ;). Rule 0 - DM says you're dead so you're dead lol
Esponer 07-27-06, 09:41 PM	If you did that, the DM would likely find a way to kill you ;). Rule 0 - DM says you're dead so you're dead lol Indeed! I added a background section in an SBLOCK, since I know I'd want to read how people found things like that. I did in fact try a minor version of this with my DM, to which he quite resoundingly said no. Now I just sidestep away from breath attacks and reply to elan's resilience by attacking again, thanks to Supernatural Opportunist. I don't think it's too unbalanced if you just use the two feats on your own, unless you start full power attacking after calculating it'll improve your average damage. It can get insane if you use Small cohorts with Close-Quarters Fighting stacked together giving you an AC over 300. Though after a while there's no point bothering, and there are a sufficient number of inadequacies with just using this plan on its own that you couldn't rely on it solely: not when the meteor swarm arrived.
Xeraph 07-30-06, 11:28 AM	It is an old trick, but quite powerful, you can find it in the Feat Combos thread that is floating around. As a sidenote, Quickstaff and Swarmfighting could turn out very usefull with all those goblin followers. Hehe. Cheers.
King_Bulba 07-31-06, 03:54 AM	A char in my group did this. The tuaric dino/halfing would use shock trooper and lower ac while the other PC was on his back with allied defense to offest it. A NASTY combo! Luckly my DM is not of the DM vs PC minset(which is good) and enjoys us killing stuff way past our CR like we do. Trust me if my DM wanted to kill us WITHOUT rule 0 he can and has.