Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chybi 03-18-06, 08:38 PM	Hi, I'm not sure if this is in the right place, but I pretty sure it is. Since my group is starting a new campaign soon, I've decided to play a character who has shunned magic in all forms from his life. I'm planning on playing a Swashbuckler/Scout/Fighter type, Not sure yet, haven't fully decided. But one thing is for sure, I don't plan on using anything magic related, This goes from spells to magic items. I was hoping I could get a few tips that would help me stay useful to the group later on even though I won't have the power of magic items and spells to help me. Having played with my group for quite awhile now, I know that the game is pretty combat heavy and I fear I'll be using all usefulness later on when we have enough wealth and the others start getting magic items. My DM is open to suggestions because he likes my concept, but knows how to others would react if I start being useless to our group. Hopefully, I can get some decent ideas my DM will accept to help my character out.
zaei 03-18-06, 08:47 PM	You could throw Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted Deeds) on your character, or, since your DM likes your idea, take the idea of VoP (make characters not suck at higher levels without material possesions), and come up with a custom tailored feat for your character specifically. If I were you, I'd try for the second option, since VoP comes with some rather hefty RP issues that you probably won't want to deal with.
Chybi 03-18-06, 08:55 PM	Well Vow of Poverty is pretty much out of the question for my character, But I like your idea of a custom version of it. I'll borrow my friend's copy in a few days and check it out to see if I can tweak it to something acceptable.
elfink 03-18-06, 08:58 PM	If you are staying completely away from magic, also consider one of two anti-mage PrCs: Occult Slayer (Complete Warrior) and, if you are playing with 3.0, Forsaker (From Masters of the Wild, I think; listed more for completeness than viability). If you're actively against magic, I highly recomend taking a look at the Occult Slayer though; it gets some very nice ability and has that flavor. I second the taking of Vow of Poverty or coming up with an alternative. If you are going to forgo magic items then you need SOMETHING to help you stay competative.
Gavinfoxx 03-19-06, 03:00 AM	A psionicist! :)
Generic Poster 03-19-06, 04:32 AM	The only base class I can think of that really stands any sort of chance at high levels without any sort of magic use is the Monk. Even using a Monk though, you'll be at a disadvantage without some magical assistance, and should probably work out some benefits he would get in exchange for forsaking magic use with your DM.
jstorrie 03-19-06, 04:39 AM	If you have access to Forsaker, a Forsaker/Deepwarden can do very well for himself. Your main troubles are going to be these: damage reduction and mobility. How do you deal with a situation that requires flight or teleportation? How do you deal with a creature immune to nonmagical weapons? Still, even if you can deal with those, you are going to run into many problems. Your wealth is part of your character level, and challenges are created assuming you have put a certain amount of capital to good use. Without purchasing magical items you simply won't be able to do that. If you can't use Forsaker and you can't use Vow of Poverty I strongly suggest you don't go with this character, as he'll fall far behind the rest of the party.
Serpe 03-19-06, 01:26 PM	A monk would be a good idea to start with beacause he can do all the swashbukling, scouting, and is a pretty decent fighter. Also at 3rd level the monk's unarmed attacks become treated like magic weapons for DR purposes. I've actually played this type of character and she held he own at the higher levels.
Surreal 03-19-06, 01:33 PM	Would wildshape be considered magic? A wildshaping ranger (UA) 5/Master of Many Forms could be your answer. Or play a monstrous character that's of high ECL and use savage progressions to progress along with your party. All that still doesn't make up for your lack of magic items though. As jstorrie mentioned, your wealth is figured into your character's strength and challenges are balanced accordingly. Without some way to compensate (such as by VoP), you're gimping yourself and hurting the party. If you go with the wildshaping route, maybe see if you'd be allowed to apply templates (progressively more powerful as you level up) on top of your forms.
Milo HoBo 03-19-06, 02:52 PM	There are many alchemic items and gagets in the Arms and Equiptment Guide. Those are non-magical. Healing will likely be a problem, as will bypassing DR. This will take a lot of talking with your DM and houserules, maybe something that lets you use heal checks to convert lethal damage to subdual damage to make up for lack of magical healing. Also, having the ability to bypass DR, maybe in a custom made feat? Since supernatural DR is normally only bypasses by some magical enhancment, a feat to bypass it seems in line with your character. Other damage reduction, extrodinary, shouldn't be able to be bypassed with this custom feat. Hope this helps.
Khazra Reborn 03-19-06, 03:34 PM	Um, helloe people? INCARNUM!!!!!!!! skarn monk11/spinemeld warrior9 with monk sub levels is a forceto be reckoned with. Chuck in the VoP and your pretty powerful. Technically could be a scout (your really fast and can choose to focus on your stealth focused skills). If you could convince your DM to allow a bow within the VoP (if you make it yourself then you may be able to argue that its worthless??) an elf scout1/incarnate9/highlandstalker2/incarnate10-17 is pretty powerful. Choose to be a chaos incarnate and get some truly stupid bonuses to your ranged attack rolls. Theres also an incarnum feat that can add alot to your skirmish damage (indigo something IIRC). BEWARE INCARNATES HAVE POOR BAB AND HD, THIS WILL BE HARD TO PULL OFF! Alternately, though its not particuarly swashbuckler/scouty an incarnate 20 with VoP can do about everything...Theres a thread around here somewhere. Also, the soulborn and totemist can also be pretty good with VoP (especially as the totemist uses natural weapons so the weapon restriction is eaisly by passed). Last of all, VoP allows simple weapons...the quarterstaff is pretty good (TWF or THF) and has a certain coolness to it.
zaei 03-19-06, 03:57 PM	Um, helloe people? INCARNUM!!!!!!!! skarn monk11/spinemeld warrior9 with monk sub levels is a forceto be reckoned with. Chuck in the VoP and your pretty powerful. Technically could be a scout (your really fast and can choose to focus on your stealth focused skills). If you could convince your DM to allow a bow within the VoP (if you make it yourself then you may be able to argue that its worthless??) an elf scout1/incarnate9/highlandstalker2/incarnate10-17 is pretty powerful. Choose to be a chaos incarnate and get some truly stupid bonuses to your ranged attack rolls. Theres also an incarnum feat that can add alot to your skirmish damage (indigo something IIRC). BEWARE INCARNATES HAVE POOR BAB AND HD, THIS WILL BE HARD TO PULL OFF! Alternately, though its not particuarly swashbuckler/scouty an incarnate 20 with VoP can do about everything...Theres a thread around here somewhere. Also, the soulborn and totemist can also be pretty good with VoP (especially as the totemist uses natural weapons so the weapon restriction is eaisly by passed). Last of all, VoP allows simple weapons...the quarterstaff is pretty good (TWF or THF) and has a certain coolness to it. MAGIC of Incarnum... =)
Lokiyn 03-19-06, 10:50 PM	If you are willing to make the effort you could work out some sort of alchemical rewrite of the second edition athasian lifeshaping to create quirky and flavorful items that replace magic fo your character. Just watch out for those mutated boots of speed, they'll bite your feet off and scurry off.
Khazra Reborn 03-20-06, 02:12 PM	MAGIC of Incarnum... Yeah but... This goes from spells to magic items there not spells or magic items. Incarnums no more magic then the VoP IHMO(as it grants magical bonuses, hence an ongoing debate as to whether a VoP forsaker is ok).
Chybi 03-20-06, 03:39 PM	@Lokiyn I have no idea what that is, since I started playing with 3E. @KhazraReborn As for using things in Magic of Incarnum, I don't have access to the book, so using it is pretty much out of the question. @Elfink I've checked in on a few other things as well. Namely the Occult Slayer, but it doesn't really fit with what I'm trying to achieve. @Those who suggested the Monk Class I've considered it, but I've never really gotten into monks. Mainly because a player in my group plays monks almost exclusively, and gets pretty annoying with the Pro-Monk talk.
Generic Poster 03-20-06, 03:50 PM	have you considered a soulknife? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm all of their abilities are supernatural or extraordinary, so they are no more spellcasters then Monks are. They do get a couple of powerpoints, but not any powers, so the most they can possible do with it is create a psionic focus to occasionally pull off some unusual feats. While they are considered slightly underpowered even when they do have access to magic, manifesting blades of energy does take care of one of the biggest hurdles of having a character without access to magic items.
Chybi 03-21-06, 12:05 AM	After going over this thread a couple of times with my DM, we've come up with this: Voluntary Anti-Magic (Requires Vow of Denial) Level Benefit 1 SR 10 + Character level, AC Bonus +2 2 3 Excellent Strike +1 4 AC Bonus +3, 5 6 7 Ability Enhancement +2, Excellent Strike +2 8 AC Bonus +4 9 10 Magic Check Failure 5% 11 Ability Enhancement +4/+2, Excellent Strike +3 12 AC Bonus +5, Magic Check Failure 10% 13 Magic Check Failure 15% 14 Magic Check Failure 20%, Excellent Strike +4 15 Ability Enhancement +6/+4/+2, Magic Check Failure 25% 16 AC Bonus +6, Magic Check Failure 30% 17 Magic Check Failure 35% 18 Magic Check Failure 40%, Excellent Strike +5 19 Ability Enhancement +8/+6/+4/+2, Magic Check Failure 45% 20 AC Bonus +7, Magic Check Failure 50% Excellent Strike: Equivalent to +1 for Damage Reduction and increase the dice category by 1. Magic Check Failure: Similar to arcane spell failure, but affects any magic targetting the character. This is based heavily on the vow of poverty. I like the idea of magic fizzling when near the character, I feel it gives a sense of the character will to overcome any magic that gets near him. I'm a little reticent about "Excellent Strike", I feel it becomes too powerful. I myself would have gone with a build similar to skirmish, where one level you gain power to overcome damage reduction and the next your dice category increases, Or maybe even replace it by something similar to the Soulknife's ability to enhance his weapons. So anyways, I've given my thoughts on this, my DM having done most of the legwork on this, I know it's being accepted in my game. What are your thoughts on this?
Blade2718 03-21-06, 12:40 AM	If you're playing a 3.5 game, Excellent Strike will need a different progression, as the damage reduction types have changed drastically. Instead of magical strength, you can resist damage based on alignment, metal type, damage type, or magic. Magic Check Failure just seems like Spell Resistance. I'd consider an ASF aura, but only at a higher level like 12.
Chybi 03-21-06, 12:57 AM	If you're playing a 3.5 game, Excellent Strike will need a different progression, as the damage reduction types have changed drastically. Instead of magical strength, you can resist damage based on alignment, metal type, damage type, or magic. Magic Check Failure just seems like Spell Resistance. I'd consider an ASF aura, but only at a higher level like 12. I know all that, but at least I'll be able to get through certain DR, Metal type and Damage type can be done. The only real problem will be allignment and Magic DR, other than that I should be fine.
colm_l 03-21-06, 05:46 AM	MCF & SR together are pretty broken. At the higher levels 1/4 spells will effect you.