Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harye 02-01-07, 10:22 AM	Doesnt sound too spectacular now does it? There are numerous methods for obtaining skirmish, and if anyone can do it better then post it here and let me know :P But here is what I am gong with: The Carpet of Flying. (DMG page 252) I dont know if someone has already posted this one, but the carpet requires 1 action to activate and from that point on it is active. You can turn it off but it has no limit to its duration of flying. Heres the important part. The rug follows spoken directions from the owner once its activated. Why does this matter? As per the table of actions allowed in combat (PHB page 141), speaking is a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You don't have to spend a movement action to control its movement, so if you get on it and command it to move anywhere (thats not too close to your enemies) you move 40' as a free action (it's the carpet's move action...as long as you remain on the carpet of course...) Essentially this allows you to activate your skirmish, improved skirmish (if you have complete scoundrel which is why I started to think of how to skirmish better) AND many shot (or just standard full attack as you see fit) every round, while maintaining mobility (flying is good for staying away from guys with big pointy things). I dont think this works with spring attack, as it is not your movement action, its the carpet's that this whole concept rides on (bad pun alert, nut-pun demi god token deployed to destroy the desecrator of pun-pun's name!), but for an archer build this is pretty cool. Not bad for a melee scout (close in, full attack, keep ac bonuses from skirmish and improved skirmish, then fly to someone else and repeat) but not as effective, imo. Comments? Found out that I did something horrendously wrong? I eagerly await this either getting shot down (more puns) or get the thumbs up if no one can find anything wrong with it...
bungo_underhill 02-01-07, 10:32 AM	I'm not sure where RAW stands on this but I know it says that skirmish can't be triggered by the movement of your mount (a horse archer can't make a full skirmish attack because his horse moved 10'+ for example). So if I was DMing I'd rule that a flying carpet cann't trigger it either.
BrazilRascal 02-01-07, 10:43 AM	This is a bit lame, historically speaking. Lots of skirmishers were light cavalry with bows/swords, hitting and moving and avoiding pursuit by footmen or heavier cavalry. But oh wel...game balance, and all that. This reminds me of the Dwarven Defender on the flying carpet. ;)
Harye 02-01-07, 10:47 AM	Well, if newer is what we use (although I dont see anything about not getting skirmish from mounts in Complete Adventurer) then let me quote Complete Scoundrel: Skirmish (EX) A scout relies on mobility to deal extra damage and improve her defense. She deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet. The extra damage applies only to attacks taken during the scout’s turn. This extra damage increases by 1d6 for every four levels gained above 1st (2d6 at 5th, 3d6 at 9th, 4d6 at 13th, and 5d6 at 17th level). The extra damage applies only against living creatures that have a discernible anatomy. Undead, constructs, oozes, plants, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits are not vulnerable to this additional damage. The scout must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. Scouts can apply this extra damage to ranged attacks made while skirmishing, but only if the target is within 30 feet. At 3rd level, a scout gains a +1 competence bonus to Armor Class during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet. The bonus applies as soon as the scout has moved 10 feet and lasts until the start of her next turn. This bonus improves by 1 for every four levels gained above 3rd (+2 at 7th, +3 at 11th, +4 at 15th, and +5 at 19th level). A scout loses this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load. If she gains the skirmish ability from another class, the bonuses stack. I see nothing about not being able to use a mount in the text. Also, I dont think this counts as a mount. You dont ride it, that requires a movement action I think (?)... All is well once more BrazilRascal :D lol.
SageBahamut 02-01-07, 10:52 AM	Bungo, where does it say that? Er, not in the "them's fightin' words" sense, but more like in the "I'm curious and wanna know" sense. :D
bungo_underhill 02-01-07, 11:02 AM	Bungo, where does it say that? Er, not in the "them's fightin' words" sense, but more like in the "I'm curious and wanna know" sense. :D I'm sure that I read it somewhere recently, I'm at work at the moment so I can't check my books but I think it could have been in an ask wizards answer. Either way I think its in the same place that it says you can't move 5ft forward and then 5ft back into the same square to activate skirmish. I do appologise if I've dreamt this up but I'm pretty sure it does exist somewhere.
SageBahamut 02-01-07, 11:06 AM	Well, now I'm gonna say the fightin' words (sorry!), but I wanna see this one in print. Not because I think you're a raving madman (you could well be, but not because of this), but simply because it's counterintuitive. No skipping back and forth to trigger it, fine, that makes sense. Your net movement is zero even though you've wasted 10' of your move speed, where Skirmishing is all about jockeying for position. That said, when mounted you've done exactly that. Jockey. (Nice coincidence there, too. :D) So, seeing as mounted skirmish is supported by both history and common sense, and not outed by the rules, I'm gonna have to see it to believe it.
Pinky's brain 02-01-07, 11:08 AM	Complete Adventurer Errata : Page 12: Skirmish (class feature) The second sentence of the skirmish class feature should read as follows (new text indicated in red): She deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet away from where she was at the start of her turn. The extra damage applies only to attacks made after the scout has moved at least 10 feet. The skirmish ability cannot be used while mounted. This update should be made wherever the skirmish ability description is presented (see also pages 31, 56, and 177).
lonewolf 02-01-07, 11:11 AM	Its a question of relative movement. The next step in this line of thought is that if youre on a moving ship you also gain skirmish. If you spin this even further you can argue that you always move because the earth is always moving through space. I doubt any sane DM would allow this though ... :P
bungo_underhill 02-01-07, 11:13 AM	Thank-you Pinky's Brain my mental status is no longer in question. Well at least not because of this anyhow. :P
Xylem 02-01-07, 11:23 AM	This is a bit lame, historically speaking. Lots of skirmishers were light cavalry with bows/swords, hitting and moving and avoiding pursuit by footmen or heavier cavalry. But oh wel...game balance, and all that. I think you're confusing the (Ex) ability with the military tactic of the same name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirmishing) -- they really aren't the same thing at all.
Harye 02-01-07, 11:44 AM	Hmm, I've read the errata and only have 2 responses really. 1. Do we use the errata for complete adventurer or the newest publication (complete scoundrel)? I suspect that the errata is closer to what we should follow, but it was worth mentioning that they didnt use this version in the skirmish ability special note they made in complete scoundrel... or 2. Does someone on a magic carpet count as mounted? What counts as mounted? Its merely my opinion, but I believe something counts as a mount (and you as mounted) when you are riding something. That is, you are controlling the mount using the ride skill (which does actually prevent full attack options by the way, according to mounted combat in the PHB, page 157). Basically, since the mount requires so much of your attention, you cannot make a full attack and perhaps cannot concentrate enough to get precision damage (skirmish)...it does not prevent sneak attack, but it would be interesting to sneak attack someone from the back of a war horse heh. Anyways, I can accept that much, however the carpet does NOT require attention as such, nor any rolls or actions. It specifically states that controlling it is done via speaking (which is why I dont think a broom of flying works for this trick, it requires you to use your movement action I think...) and not any ride checks. Also, usually when it counts as a mount, such is specified. Read the entries for the wondrous figurine entries all of 4ish pages later in the DMG. I say you do not count as being mounted on a carpet of flying, merely as on one and it is moving. Much like you dont mount a ship, you are just on one. (Although, being on a ship only works if the thing you are shooting at is moving slower/not moving at all, and is not on the same ship...IMO :P) If none of this succeeds in convincing you that skirmish would activate with a flying carpet, that is fine, but I still am inclined to believe that it works. I have submitted an entry to CustServ to see what they have to say, will post the response here when I get one.
Harye 02-01-07, 12:39 PM	:bump:
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 02-01-07, 12:49 PM	What this tells us is that WOTC doesn't read their own errata. However, I'm inclined to go with the description in Complete Scoundrel since it is the most recent publication.
FeceMan 02-01-07, 01:22 PM	I don't even get why moving ten feet allows for extra damage in the first place. AC, yes; damage? Maybe someone can explain this to me.
Harye 02-01-07, 02:17 PM	Received response from Cust Serv. Response (Chris L.) 02/01/2007 10:31 AM Thank you for contacting us. Just because the carpet of flying takes only a free action to activate, doesn't mean that its movement is considered a free action. A carpet of flying with a 40 ft speed, can move up to 40 feet as a move action. However, if the scout were riding the carpet and using a ranged weapon, they could take a full attack action. This would be similar to doing the same while mounted, however the scout must be on foot in order to get the skirmish bonus. Hmm, it doesnt take a free action to activate and it specifically states that you dont need to ride it, just command it verbally, but at the same time I can sort of see where he is coming from. As for why movement allows more damage, basically its a real world tactic that units (called skirmishers!) used to manuver around slower opponents to essentially catch their opponents before they could react. In a way its almost like saying "I move so fast I flank you on my own!"...helpful? Meh, sorry for the waste of time guys/gals... I'll play with the ruling unless someone can get a diff cust serv response with a different arguement than the one I used. :P I aint willing to drop it that easy. Just not willing to argue with the guys who can walk down the hall and talk to the guys who WROTE these rules. (although after the limited wish sucks incident I begin to wonder about that too...)
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 02-01-07, 02:47 PM	One thing that you'll discover Harye, is that often custserv's answers are wrong and contradictory. It has been shown by a few people that they don't always read the rules they're referring to. So, I wouldn't get too hung up about their response ;) Edit: and I want to congradulate you on your discovery. I like it!
FeceMan 02-01-07, 03:03 PM	As for why movement allows more damage, basically its a real world tactic that units (called skirmishers!) used to manuver around slower opponents to essentially catch their opponents before they could react. In a way its almost like saying "I move so fast I flank you on my own!"...helpful? Makes sense.
Harye 02-01-07, 03:09 PM	Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer One thing that you'll discover Harye, is that often custserv's answers are wrong and contradictory. It has been shown by a few people that they don't always read the rules they're referring to. So, I wouldn't get too hung up about their response Edit: and I want to congradulate you on your discovery. I like it! Thanks! Especially from an experienced CO board member. (Im a youngling :P)
jameswilliamogle 02-01-07, 03:10 PM	Hey, if the carpet doesn't really trigger your movement, couldn't you use this with all those "can't move more than 5 feet" abilities? Like a Dwarven Defender, for example? And wouldn't you be able to make full attacks while the carpet moves to the square you want to be in? That would make it worthwhile...
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 02-01-07, 03:16 PM	Hey, if the carpet doesn't really trigger your movement, couldn't you use this with all those "can't move more than 5 feet" abilities? Like a Dwarven Defender, for example? And wouldn't you be able to make full attacks while the carpet moves to the square you want to be in? That would make it worthwhile... James!!! That's a great idea! I want to see what Custserv has to say about that!!:plotting:
jameswilliamogle 02-01-07, 03:30 PM	CustServ incident #'070201-000096' Does the Flying Carpet trigger movement by a character? Is a character riding a Flying Carpet considered to be riding a mount? The Complete Adventurer errata suggests it doesn't, since movement by it can't activate Skirmish damage for a riding character (at least its suggested by the errata, which has to deal with mounted riders). But if it doesn't count as movement, then it wouldn't deactivated abilities that require you don't move too far, like the Dwarven Defender's Defensive Stance ability. Also, activating is a standard action, but then you simply tell it where to go, which is a free action (from "actions in combat"), so a character on a magic carpet could tell the carpet to fly 5' above someone, and then get a full attack on them. I'm still not sure if riding a carpet is the same as being on a mount, though.
Harye 02-01-07, 03:31 PM	:P BrazilRascal already mentioned the Dwarven Defender on a carpet about 17 posts ago. But yes, it would be hilarious to see a squad of dwarven defenders roaming the skys, owning everything behind them (they're supposed to be living walls, keeping what they own safe :D just move the wall forward a bit, now some more, there we go, all of a sudden the negative to dwarven charisma makes more sense!) As for being mounted or not. I dont think so. The carpet essentially has a mind of its own. You dont use any form of skill (apart from maybe speak language ?) to make it move. It understands where you want to go and takes you there itself. Just my opinion, but I think of it as riding on a ship. A Dwarven Defender could certainly defend a ship (I must admit, I love playing dwarves, and am sorta against the idea of defending the carpet and then making it fly foward, but thats a role play problem (I dont HAVE to play one), mechanically it works). As far as I know, because you cannot ride it, you cannot apply the mounted feats to the carpet. (Charger builds are a joke if you can, field control has always been one way a DM can stop someone from abusing chargers, if I can "mount" a 5'x5' flying object, NOTHING should be able to really stop you...with a lance...AND SKIRMISH MAYBE!) However, that does not seem to fit to me, nor does the concept of riding a carpet like a horse. In the end, maybe it will be Dm's call, but basically if you dont need to EXERT yourself to control the thing under your feet, you arent riding it exactly, its just transporting you. Dimension Door works, its magic and so is this. I KNOW that is not a good argument, but it should still be partially valid. The carpet is a magic item, if Dimension Step/Door works because its magic, maybe this does too. (its late here, my arguments should be getting less coherent)
jameswilliamogle 02-01-07, 03:42 PM	:P BrazilRascal already mentioned the Dwarven Defender on a carpet about 17 posts ago. But yes, it would be hilarious to see a squad of dwarven defenders roaming the skys, owning everything behind them (they're supposed to be living walls, keeping what they own safe :D just move the wall forward a bit, now some more, there we go, all of a sudden the negative to dwarven charisma makes more sense!)lol, reminds me of the invisible wizard with 3-4 floating disks, all with small artillery squads... edit: and credit where credit's due, I say, if someone found it first (it is SRD, after all).
ronyon 02-01-07, 03:47 PM	Meh.I love Scouts as horse archers, hate em other wise. This silly ruling makes Wilderness Rogues better skirmishers than the guys with Skirmish...
Harye 02-01-07, 03:57 PM	ronyon Meh.I love Scouts as horse archers, hate em other wise. This silly ruling makes Wilderness Rogues better skirmishers than the guys with Skirmish... Agreed, glammered carpet to look like a horse? :P Actually it was this gimping of skirmish that made me angry and start wanting to build one. The release of complete scoundrel (and the apparent removal of that clause) made me happy enough to actually make one, and then the carpet idea popped in while trying to get improved skirmish to work.
ThePrivateer 02-01-07, 04:25 PM	I can only wonder why they felt the need to eliminate mounted skirmishing. Did they not like the idea of a skirmish-lance-charge, or is a slightly faster move granted by a fragile sack of HP just too powerful for WotC? :P
PhaedrusXY 02-01-07, 04:42 PM	Hey, if the carpet doesn't really trigger your movement, couldn't you use this with all those "can't move more than 5 feet" abilities? Like a Dwarven Defender, for example? And wouldn't you be able to make full attacks while the carpet moves to the square you want to be in? That would make it worthwhile...Exactly. For every rules-hole that is plugged, another is opened. It's like that story about the kid trying to stop the **** from bursting by putting his finger in it (or something like that... wonder if this will get through the word filter :P ).
FlimFlam 02-01-07, 04:56 PM	FWIW, errata takes precedence. So "no skirmish when mounted" is the current official ruling. That still leaves us with "is riding a flying carpet considered being mounted"? I don't think it does...
Harye 02-01-07, 05:50 PM	FlimFlam FWIW, errata takes precedence. So "no skirmish when mounted" is the current official ruling. That still leaves us with "is riding a flying carpet considered being mounted"? I don't think it does... I thought latest publication took precedence, including latest errata (which is supposed to come after the publication it is fixing). Since complete scoundrel had a special block set aside just to describe the skirmish ability after the complete adventurer errata was released, it is the latest and could be considered the most revised version. However I can accept that skirmish does not work when you are mounted, mostly because the errata *might* still be in effect. This goes against logic, but it probably is a balance issue. Basically, I will accept the errata until the complete scoundrel's errata. If they do not errata it there, I will run with the skirmish rules in that book. Being the latest publication and errata. Well, my DM doesn't count it as being mounted. The inability to control it without verbal commands is actually big enough of a problem that creatures and vehicles do not normally experience that he will run it as essentially a mobile disk (tenser's telekinetic disk or something, I cant look it up right now), under your basic control but not requiring any ride skill or actions as such. ^^ Well if it isn't a mount (the general outcome of this thread so far), how about some build ideas that do not have to worry about mobility? I think a ranged scout (shockingly, with ranger levels and scout levelsm thank you swift hunter!) would work best...
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 02-01-07, 05:57 PM	Let's be careful when throwing the word "balanced around." Core is far from balanced let alone the supplements that come after it. d6s applying to every ranged attack is paltry to the power of spellcasters.
Caelic 02-01-07, 06:17 PM	Unless the most recent publication explicitly contradicts the errata, the errata remains in effect. A lack of repetition is not contradiction. The errata says you can't use Skirmish mounted. The most recent publication doesn't say you CAN use Skirmish mounted. Ergo, the errata is still in effect and valid.
jameswilliamogle 02-01-07, 11:38 PM	CustServ incident #'070201-000096' Does the Flying Carpet trigger movement by a character? Is a character riding a Flying Carpet considered to be riding a mount? The Complete Adventurer errata suggests it doesn't, since movement by it can't activate Skirmish damage for a riding character (at least its suggested by the errata, which has to deal with mounted riders). But if it doesn't count as movement, then it wouldn't deactivated abilities that require you don't move too far, like the Dwarven Defender's Defensive Stance ability. Also, activating is a standard action, but then you simply tell it where to go, which is a free action (from "actions in combat"), so a character on a magic carpet could tell the carpet to fly 5' above someone, and then get a full attack on them. I'm still not sure if riding a carpet is the same as being on a mount, though. The Answer (or, as it turns out, lack thereof): Hi there James, It really isn't covered clearly by the rules. It seems like it would best be used in a manner similar to a mount, even though it does not say so. Since Dungeons & Dragons seeks to simulate entire worlds of fantasy, where anything under the sun(s) can happen, there are many situations that the rules in the source books simply don’t cover. Because of this, Dungeon Masters are frequently called upon to come up with house rules that adjudicate these situations, so their players (and the Dungeon Master as well) can do the things they want to do. This is heartily encouraged since it adds more depth to the game. Unfortunately, we are unable to assist you with the creation of these house rules, or even in the adjudication of such matters that aren’t specifically covered by the rules. If you are the player, you can certainly suggest house rules and work with your Dungeon Master to create them, but in the end the Dungeon Master is solely responsible for deciding on which house rules to use, as well as explaining those rules to their players. Take Care and Good Gaming! :)
BrutalMisery 02-02-07, 12:43 AM	(makes a screwy face) This is really wrong. Okay, per the way the rules are written, using a carpet to get Skrimish works, but...image has a lot to do with how I rule things. If I can picture it, then I'll allow it or assign the penalties or bonuses. When I picture a Scout, she's sprinting passed her target, firing her arrows at the opening created when he can't turn fast enough to track her. Or he's bolting right next to the foe, tumbling under his weapon, slashing the bakc of his calves, and then tumbling away. ...standing on a carpet, spinning around a guy, stabbing with knives...that's not an image that works. Does this movement provoke AoO? Can the Scout tumble to avoid those AoO? I mean, the character is actually standing on a flat peice of ground that moves around. Another comparison, if a giant picks the wagon the scout is on, and swings it around (following the scout's verbal commands), will the scout get his skrimish dice because of the wagon's movement? I'd say no, personally, but I only have a say in my game.
Harye 02-02-07, 02:18 AM	rutalMisery: (makes a screwy face) This is really wrong. Okay, per the way the rules are written, using a carpet to get Skrimish works, but...image has a lot to do with how I rule things. If I can picture it, then I'll allow it or assign the penalties or bonuses. Best way to run things usually. When I picture a Scout, she's sprinting passed her target, firing her arrows at the opening created when he can't turn fast enough to track her. Or he's bolting right next to the foe, tumbling under his weapon, slashing the bakc of his calves, and then tumbling away. ...standing on a carpet, spinning around a guy, stabbing with knives...that's not an image that works. I suspect this is why they say being mounted doesnt work either. Maneuverability is what its all about. Getting a ground speed increase is nice and all, but between the way movement works in DnD and the way damage works in DnD, the skirmisher tactic is not as good as it was for the real world skirmishers (Oh no, real world physics...), admittedly I don't want a 1 shot kill situation against everyone. Just a crippling blow to a few opponents and then retreat and attack from a different angle. This is how (I believe) skirmishers became so feared. If being able to walk twice as fast as everyone else is capable of giving a person trained in mobile combat an advantage, why not the ability to fly and move close to as fast? Hard to imagine, sure, maybe. But watch Alladin again, that carpet of his sure gave him some mobility options for better attacks. See if that movie helps you picture it better maybe. Does this movement provoke AoO? Can the Scout tumble to avoid those AoO? I mean, the character is actually standing on a flat peice of ground that moves around. Another comparison, if a giant picks the wagon the scout is on, and swings it around (following the scout's verbal commands), will the scout get his skrimish dice because of the wagon's movement? I'd say no, personally, but I only have a say in my game. 1. It follows the standard rules for movement provoking AoOs, if you move out of a threatened square, they get to swing at you, and yes, you can tumble to avoid the AoO. Nothing in the movement rules states that you have to move out of a threatened square under your own power to provoke an AoO. 2. If a giant picks up a wagon and swings it based on the scouts orders...Hmm. That one is tricky, on the one hand you now have higher ground, and choice of position. On the other, you *could* technically be counted as riding the giant, as we have been discussing through out this thread. Basically, if its an advantageous move for the scout to get swung to a particular spot, then yes, I would rule that he gets skirmish. If it was just circular motion specifically designed to get skirmish going with no real tactical benefit, I would rule not. But that is DM fiat. Essentially what I am saying: DM's get to choose, but I want to make your options clear. There *is* a debate as to if this works or not, and I personally believe it does. Also, BrutalMisery, thank you for being polite in your post. When I read the first sentence, I was expecting to have to don my flame retardant suit :P
xerofire 02-02-07, 03:49 AM	Its a question of relative movement. The next step in this line of thought is that if youre on a moving ship you also gain skirmish. If you spin this even further you can argue that you always move because the earth is always moving through space. I doubt any sane DM would allow this though ... :P in the ship example there is still a change of frame of reference between attacker and target as long as the "skirmisher" is on a different ship or move their position when on the same ship. the earth example is silly but brought up the morphic nature of pandemonium.. where the REALITY is always moving whether or not you necessarily are. Planar Skirmish?
BrutalMisery 02-02-07, 03:52 AM	Speaking of verbal commands, the carpet is not intelligent, is it? How many words can you speak as a free action? (flips through books, finds it on page 144) Books says a few sentences. Without using a lot of 'and', 'um', and odd punucution, that limits the movements of the carpet. So how accurate can your instructions be? Even when taking in account the character will be an expert at what they do (to afford a flying carpet, they should be an elite scout type guy), a magic carpet can only understand so much. Most of the complex maneuvers the character does (these aren't represented in the rules, so maybe I'm just yapping) is often instinctive. Dumb carpets have no chance of moving as well as a back flipping skirmisher. Yeah, I guess I am in the boat that says standing on a carpet isn't considered "mounted", though I don think standing on a moving platform should have to make some balance checks like a horseman does. I'm also in the boat that say it shouldn't work (weather is does or not is for people smarter than me). But only because it makes my brain hurt. Also, BrutalMisery, thank you for being polite in your post. When I read the first sentence, I was expecting to have to don my flame retardant suit :P Oh, yer welcome. I have been hit by enough people who violently disagreed with what I said. As moronic as those folks sounded, I decided I really didn't want to be them.
Harye 02-02-07, 07:11 AM	But only because it makes my brain hurt. Lol, I can accept that more than most things! Well, the motion is not violent nor surprising to you... So maybe some balance checks are in order, but not huge DC's at the least. How complex the commands are allowed to be? Well, I assume to carpet has some intelligence, nothing spectacular or intuitive (yes, that means it isnt actually intelligent, but lets not argue the meaning of intellect please >.<) but it definitely follows your orders on its own. Now this could mean you could just shout, take me to that one *points* and the carpet would plot the shortest distance to that being, or you could say "I want to get to the left side of the minotaur while being as close to its back as possible!" and then it would take you to the rear left square adjacent to the minotaur. Would it fly through the front right square of said minotaur first? Probably if that was the shortest route, thus invoking an AoO. It's not brilliant, but its not so out to get you as a wish spell. Anyways, thats my 2c.
jameswilliamogle 02-02-07, 09:38 AM	Well, the Scout would only have to say "go next to that guy then past him", right? That doesn't seem like it would be too much. "Go next to that guy, then past that guy, then past that guy, then further" doesn't seem too bad, either. I dunno, I don't think the command is what should nix it. If anything, the "relative frame" movement should nix it, but it seems like a flimsy argument, as people have already pointed out (the Pandemonium example is a good point).
FreAkOuTRG 02-02-07, 09:49 AM	I would love to see a PrC/feat that allows you to skirmish on a mount.
Arem_K 02-02-07, 11:58 AM	The broom of flying only costs 17,000 gp and has almost the same effect. Plus all your friends can make fun you because you look absolutely ridiculous.
Harye 02-02-07, 12:10 PM	Well I am unsure if I mentioned it already, but I did look at the broom. The only problem I have with it is it does not say how it flies. I know theres the lines about over land flight...but theres some evidence of it being commanded by what you say (it can go to any location you know), but no actual rule on how it maneuvers when you are on it. The generalized rule for objects without rules on activation is command word activated, and reading the broom, this does not seem far fetched. The carpet specifically states that after a command word activation it is controlled by spoken directions. This is why for 3,000gp more the carpet seemed the better buy. (Also, I didnt want to argue about balancing and fighting at the same time, its easier to balance on a carpet than on a broom, IMO)
FeceMan 02-02-07, 02:42 PM	No, you can't do this. You simply cannot--you are mounted and thus skirmish does not apply. Yes, it would be grand if skirmish would work on a mount--I'm not even sure why it doesn't--but it does not. Can anyone tell me why it doesn't work on a mount? Even with this example, I fail to see the brokenation, as one could simply get a high Tumble check and move ten feet with a five-foot step. And, with the feat that lets your skirmish damage apply to things without discernable anatomies...well, that's a bigger concern, in my most humble of opinions.
Harye 02-02-07, 03:09 PM	FeceMan No, you can't do this. You simply cannot--you are mounted and thus skirmish does not apply. Yes, it would be grand if skirmish would work on a mount--I'm not even sure why it doesn't--but it does not. Can anyone tell me why it doesn't work on a mount? Even with this example, I fail to see the brokenation, as one could simply get a high Tumble check and move ten feet with a five-foot step. And, with the feat that lets your skirmish damage apply to things without discernable anatomies...well, that's a bigger concern, in my most humble of opinions. Mounted? No. They made mounted skirmishing not work because they felt it would be unbalanced, who "they" are, and what "they" think of as "balanced" I wont discuss. Mounted combat will not work on a carpet. If you believe it will, feel free to use that as a house rule in games you DM. However, mounted charge does not work on a carpet, you simply do not have to ride the carpet nor can you brace yourself on it as well as you could on a horse or other mount. Would you allow someone to take mounted charge abilities on a carpet? That would be fun mind you, power attack charge feats with a 5x5 "mount" that flies and is steered as a free action. Removes the whole field control problem chargers experience. UbEr ChArGeR Mk2: the (illiterate) child of UBER CHARGER! Or some crap like that... The high tumble check rule is from OA (and a large number od DMs, mine included, do not allow OA in a non OA campaign game), and also the check is 40. I know its achievable, believe me I do, but it still requires quite a bit of character tweaking and focus on tumble. This method doen't require much beyond a basic ability to balance, and 20K gp. Swift Skirmisher is wonderful from a optimizer stand point, but I'm more than a little confused as to WHY this works precisely?
xerofire 02-03-07, 10:34 PM	The broom of flying only costs 17,000 gp and has almost the same effect. Plus all your friends can make fun you because you look absolutely ridiculous. It may have looked silly.. but My Racist Gold Elf Wizard was a tactical Beast with the lowly help of a broom of flying as a random item generated that no one else wanted. By the end I had "case modded" the broom with a nice seat and some siturps and cargo hooks and a swivel mount for my mechanical trap beefed up crossbow... put in a place to mount my cube of force. You see a broom..... I see a mobile weapon platform I've taken this concept to the logical extreme with the Magic carpet becoming a weaponized armored sphere my wizard calmly sits cross legged inside casting spells out of. But hey, what else would a warforged wizard do? Don't forget to fail you sculpting check for similacurming a beholder that way you shape mini replicas of beholders that have all the same magical potency and are pocket sized. The disentegrate rays are great missle interceptors =D