Am I a Turning Machine [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I a Turning Machine [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gijoel
12-23-04, 02:40 AM Critique my priest. Campaign's got a horde of undead sucking the life out of everyone. So I need to be able to be a really good turner.

stats
st 13
dx 11
con12
Int 10
wis 17
cha 17

Race: human
Domains: Sun, Protection
lvl 1 Extra turn, Empowered Turning, Disciple of the sun
lvl 2 cleric
lvl 3 cleric sacred healing

then might go contemplative to get the glory domain. Not sure about sacred excorist.

Comments?
Tempest Stormwind
12-23-04, 02:50 AM Ehrm... 3 feats at first level? I assume that's a houserule and will let it slide.

Seems good for your level.

You may find some interesting resources in the October contest -- it was "build an undead slayer." One of them in particular (McKnuggle's) was playable at every level and could do some insane stuff like turning demiliches without a roll.

Another source of interesting anti-undead tricks is Libris Mortis.
Zan
12-23-04, 02:51 AM Is the radiant servant banned in your games?
Zan
12-23-04, 02:53 AM Another source of interesting anti-undead tricks is Libris Mortis.
In the world post libris mortis, corpses spend most of their time exploding for no apparent reason so you'd just need a long stick. :D
paradoxmage
12-23-04, 02:55 AM Looks good. I would take 10 levels of "The Morninglord of Lathander" from PGTF.
will need to have Improved Turning, cast 3rd level divine and have Lathander as a patron deity. You get very nice abilities to fight undead (including turning continues and spell advancement). You get special abilitys every level. You get fort/will save. Base attack as a cleric. HD d8.
I see no skill points listed (I imagine it is 2 + int).
gijoel
12-23-04, 02:56 AM Ehrm... 3 feats at first level? I assume that's a houserule and will let it slide.

:mad: CRAP!! ok move disciple of the sun up to level 3 and sacred healing to six.

Not sure about radiant servant. Have to ask.
Zan
12-23-04, 03:06 AM Not sure about radiant servant. Have to ask.
IMC it's considered quite cheesy (cleric with bonuses and no losses). I don't remember what's the general opinion here in CO.

Anyway, to squish undead it's quite good. (rsop player in my rttoee campaign kept erradicating all my undead, ignoring the many +4 bonus and unhallows Montecook put there)
Tempest Stormwind
12-23-04, 03:34 AM http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4544657

^-- McKnuggle's build that I suggested looking though earlier.

In my opinion, a good 90% of the full-casting-progression PrCs (for any caster) are cheesy for exactly the same reasons that Zan said about the Morninglord (I mean, name ONE build that uses more than six levels in plain wizard. Nearly all I see are some variant on wiz 5 / PrC 10 / Acm 5, if they're even remotely resembling a wizard at the end), as are most of the ones that people just take one level in (Dragonslayer and Spellsword in gishes, for instance) -- You'd think WotC had figured out how to fight against dipping when they revised the 3.0 ranger to 3.5, but it seems they forgot to apply that to caster PrCs.

Personally, I think the only system that got it right was the psionic system -- none of the PrCs there give full progression, and most don't give a progression at level 1... but the options they give are far beyond what the base class could get. The pull of the plain, old base class IS THE MANIFESTATION PROGRESSION. In order to get those crazy-cool powers, you should be hurting somewhere else -- and as any caster in a level-adjusted race can tell you, caster level is the weak spot.

You've heard the saying (now frequently found in sigs): "Taste that indecision? That's balance, right there." I've seen people debate for hours whether they should take the 10th level of Constructor or just advance in their psion/wilder class. The 10th level gives you some real goodies in that class's niche... but doesn't provide a manifester level. Thrallherd works the same way. I could list off a half-dozen more (which is a huge chunk of the existing psionic prestige classes); could you even name two wizard/cleric ones that have the same balancing factors in there? Probably not, but you could name about three hundred that don't harm your caster level one bit.

Not all prestige classes should suffer from the caster level drop, though -- I mean, for ones with less-than-munchkin prerequisites and who don't have an absurd array of class features, by all means, let them keep their CLs. Most of these are niche versions of the base class -- Loremaster and Mage of the Arcane Order (for wizards, less so than sorcs) come to mind, and the Archmage is the iconic version of this (in order to qualify, you already have to be a mage of no small power...). Meanwhile, look at ones like the 3.0 Elemental Savant, which lost one caster level and gained class features far exceeding what any base character could accomplish with the same loss (say, wizard 19/noncaster 1), and the prerequisites were piddly for virtually any wizard (an easy-entry feat and two of the more useful Knowledge skills -- if you're trying to go for an elemental theme you probably already have the feat, too). And we all know that wasn't the worst of the prestige classes.

If the only thing you lose when your wizard takes a PrC are the infrequent bonus feats, and you get a class with full or nearly-full casting progression, plus any one of: amazing class features, better saves, a better hit die, more bonus feats, or more skill points, you're not taking a well-designed PrC.

But that's just me. Back on topic.
gijoel
12-23-04, 04:10 PM thanks tempest

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gijoel 12-23-04, 02:40 AM	Critique my priest. Campaign's got a horde of undead sucking the life out of everyone. So I need to be able to be a really good turner. stats st 13 dx 11 con12 Int 10 wis 17 cha 17 Race: human Domains: Sun, Protection lvl 1 Extra turn, Empowered Turning, Disciple of the sun lvl 2 cleric lvl 3 cleric sacred healing then might go contemplative to get the glory domain. Not sure about sacred excorist. Comments?
Tempest Stormwind 12-23-04, 02:50 AM	Ehrm... 3 feats at first level? I assume that's a houserule and will let it slide. Seems good for your level. You may find some interesting resources in the October contest -- it was "build an undead slayer." One of them in particular (McKnuggle's) was playable at every level and could do some insane stuff like turning demiliches without a roll. Another source of interesting anti-undead tricks is Libris Mortis.
Zan 12-23-04, 02:51 AM	Is the radiant servant banned in your games?
Zan 12-23-04, 02:53 AM	Another source of interesting anti-undead tricks is Libris Mortis. In the world post libris mortis, corpses spend most of their time exploding for no apparent reason so you'd just need a long stick. :D
paradoxmage 12-23-04, 02:55 AM	Looks good. I would take 10 levels of "The Morninglord of Lathander" from PGTF. will need to have Improved Turning, cast 3rd level divine and have Lathander as a patron deity. You get very nice abilities to fight undead (including turning continues and spell advancement). You get special abilitys every level. You get fort/will save. Base attack as a cleric. HD d8. I see no skill points listed (I imagine it is 2 + int).
gijoel 12-23-04, 02:56 AM	Ehrm... 3 feats at first level? I assume that's a houserule and will let it slide. :mad: CRAP!! ok move disciple of the sun up to level 3 and sacred healing to six. Not sure about radiant servant. Have to ask.
Zan 12-23-04, 03:06 AM	Not sure about radiant servant. Have to ask. IMC it's considered quite cheesy (cleric with bonuses and no losses). I don't remember what's the general opinion here in CO. Anyway, to squish undead it's quite good. (rsop player in my rttoee campaign kept erradicating all my undead, ignoring the many +4 bonus and unhallows Montecook put there)
Tempest Stormwind 12-23-04, 03:34 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4544657 ^-- McKnuggle's build that I suggested looking though earlier. In my opinion, a good 90% of the full-casting-progression PrCs (for any caster) are cheesy for exactly the same reasons that Zan said about the Morninglord (I mean, name ONE build that uses more than six levels in plain wizard. Nearly all I see are some variant on wiz 5 / PrC 10 / Acm 5, if they're even remotely resembling a wizard at the end), as are most of the ones that people just take one level in (Dragonslayer and Spellsword in gishes, for instance) -- You'd think WotC had figured out how to fight against dipping when they revised the 3.0 ranger to 3.5, but it seems they forgot to apply that to caster PrCs. Personally, I think the only system that got it right was the psionic system -- none of the PrCs there give full progression, and most don't give a progression at level 1... but the options they give are far beyond what the base class could get. The pull of the plain, old base class IS THE MANIFESTATION PROGRESSION. In order to get those crazy-cool powers, you should be hurting somewhere else -- and as any caster in a level-adjusted race can tell you, caster level is the weak spot. You've heard the saying (now frequently found in sigs): "Taste that indecision? That's balance, right there." I've seen people debate for hours whether they should take the 10th level of Constructor or just advance in their psion/wilder class. The 10th level gives you some real goodies in that class's niche... but doesn't provide a manifester level. Thrallherd works the same way. I could list off a half-dozen more (which is a huge chunk of the existing psionic prestige classes); could you even name two wizard/cleric ones that have the same balancing factors in there? Probably not, but you could name about three hundred that don't harm your caster level one bit. Not all prestige classes should suffer from the caster level drop, though -- I mean, for ones with less-than-munchkin prerequisites and who don't have an absurd array of class features, by all means, let them keep their CLs. Most of these are niche versions of the base class -- Loremaster and Mage of the Arcane Order (for wizards, less so than sorcs) come to mind, and the Archmage is the iconic version of this (in order to qualify, you already have to be a mage of no small power...). Meanwhile, look at ones like the 3.0 Elemental Savant, which lost one caster level and gained class features far exceeding what any base character could accomplish with the same loss (say, wizard 19/noncaster 1), and the prerequisites were piddly for virtually any wizard (an easy-entry feat and two of the more useful Knowledge skills -- if you're trying to go for an elemental theme you probably already have the feat, too). And we all know that wasn't the worst of the prestige classes. If the only thing you lose when your wizard takes a PrC are the infrequent bonus feats, and you get a class with full or nearly-full casting progression, plus any one of: amazing class features, better saves, a better hit die, more bonus feats, or more skill points, you're not taking a well-designed PrC. But that's just me. Back on topic.
gijoel 12-23-04, 04:10 PM	thanks tempest