Am I crazy or is everyone forgetting bits of MT and ability to cast spells prereq [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I crazy or is everyone forgetting bits of MT and ability to cast spells prereq [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thannin
11-17-04, 08:19 PM I've noticed this quite a lot this week and my hope is that everyone's just so excited about a mediocre book in my opinion.
IMO, most of the stuff is reprints, but thats not what Im creating this thread about.
1. that feat that allows you to cast A single 2nd level spell ONCe per day.
2. Mystic theurge requirements.
The two DO NOT MESH
you cannot just ignore the fact that mystic theurge specifically states:
Able to cast 2nd-level divine spellS and 2nd-level arcane spellS.
Am I the only one seeing the obvious S's at the end of the requirements? That feat DOES NOT allow you to qualify for mystic theurge. You cannot just ignore part of a word when it suits you. Are we mix/maxers or are we power gamers who are willing to ignore words/phrases. It also ties into what I have been noticing about debating words in order to make broken combo's.
HoshiAdam
11-17-04, 08:33 PM By your definition, a low Int wizard couldn't become a mystic theurge at 3 cleric /3 wizard, since they only have one second level arcane spell per day.

There are several threads that mention this. There is also a thread somewhere that links to an unofficial errata for Percoucious Spellcaster that changes it to remove the ability to qualify for PrC's. Not because it is only a single spell, but because you have to make a skill check to cast it.

Also, the 'able to cast second level spellS' doesn't specify a time frame for being able to cast them. If you only could cast a spell once ever, then you wouldn't be able to qualify.
Ranthanas
11-17-04, 08:41 PM "Ability to cast second level spells"

Doesn't say it must be able to cast them on the same day... You can cast one today and one tomorrow.
ancalimohtar
11-17-04, 08:46 PM "Didn't say per day" is kind of lame, so I'll ignore that objection.

But the 13 Int Wiz3 is a thoroughly good counterexample. Plus, if you wanted to be picky about the number of spells known, he could have used 1 of the 2 given from leveing up to learn a level 2 spell, and then used the other to learn a level 1 spell. So he would only know one level-2 spell, and could only cast it once a day.

The only difference between the wiz3 above and a wiz1 with this feat is the failure chance. Which, as someone pointed out, isn't hard and fast because of Arcane Spell Failure in armor the wiz3 could be wearing, or other problems that require a roll to cast.
Rod Howard
11-17-04, 09:10 PM "Didn't say per day" is kind of lame, so I'll ignore that objection.

It isn't lame.
It is correct.
Nowhere it states that "ability to cast 2nd level spells" implies multiple uses per day or different spells.
You could cast different Webs, in different days, and that would mean being able to cast 2nd level spells.
Mucknuggle
11-17-04, 09:19 PM It works, stop complaining about it.

CA is a bad reprint, with some even worse new rules, just stop complaining about it. No wait, do complain about it, but not on the CO board. Complain to the game designers so that a bad product like this does not get released again.
Musrum
11-17-04, 09:24 PM The plural in "spells" could also mean that there are multiple spells that qualify.

e.g.
The applicant must have at least 3-5 years experience working in industry related roles.

If you had 4 years working in only one job which was relevant, you would certainly apply.
rilem
11-17-04, 10:11 PM The best reason I think it should work -- though, judging by Rich Baker's comments, it won't for long -- is the implications of what happens if it doesn't work.

As HoshiAdam suggested, a 3rd level Wizard of moderate intelligence wouldn't meet the MT requirements by a strict definition of the "2nd level spells" rule. (Though it's not really the case; the wizard can still cast at least two different spells, just far apart).

The battle sorceror is even worse off. At 4th level, assuming 13 Cha, they only get 1 2nd spell, and can cast it only once per day. Are they to be prohibited from prestige classes because of a literal interpretation of this rule? I doubt that was WotC's intent.

So, by that reasoning, the Precocious Spellcaster feat MUST work, because ruling otherwise would void existing Prestige Class progressions.

(That's if you allow it at all. It's easy to toss).

And, as Nihility pointed out in his thread, Rich Baker has promised a clarification that effectively rules this trick out — not because of the spell-plurality issue, but because, since you have to make a skill check each time, you can't expect to reliably cast 2nd level spells. He admits the reasoning is thin, but there it is.
EvilDuck
11-17-04, 10:28 PM Yup, overwhelming evidence that it works. So min/maxxery for all! *goes off to make some abusive builds*

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thannin 11-17-04, 08:19 PM	I've noticed this quite a lot this week and my hope is that everyone's just so excited about a mediocre book in my opinion. IMO, most of the stuff is reprints, but thats not what Im creating this thread about. 1. that feat that allows you to cast A single 2nd level spell ONCe per day. 2. Mystic theurge requirements. The two DO NOT MESH you cannot just ignore the fact that mystic theurge specifically states: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spellS and 2nd-level arcane spellS. Am I the only one seeing the obvious S's at the end of the requirements? That feat DOES NOT allow you to qualify for mystic theurge. You cannot just ignore part of a word when it suits you. Are we mix/maxers or are we power gamers who are willing to ignore words/phrases. It also ties into what I have been noticing about debating words in order to make broken combo's.
HoshiAdam 11-17-04, 08:33 PM	By your definition, a low Int wizard couldn't become a mystic theurge at 3 cleric /3 wizard, since they only have one second level arcane spell per day. There are several threads that mention this. There is also a thread somewhere that links to an unofficial errata for Percoucious Spellcaster that changes it to remove the ability to qualify for PrC's. Not because it is only a single spell, but because you have to make a skill check to cast it. Also, the 'able to cast second level spellS' doesn't specify a time frame for being able to cast them. If you only could cast a spell once ever, then you wouldn't be able to qualify.
Ranthanas 11-17-04, 08:41 PM	"Ability to cast second level spells" Doesn't say it must be able to cast them on the same day... You can cast one today and one tomorrow.
ancalimohtar 11-17-04, 08:46 PM	"Didn't say per day" is kind of lame, so I'll ignore that objection. But the 13 Int Wiz3 is a thoroughly good counterexample. Plus, if you wanted to be picky about the number of spells known, he could have used 1 of the 2 given from leveing up to learn a level 2 spell, and then used the other to learn a level 1 spell. So he would only know one level-2 spell, and could only cast it once a day. The only difference between the wiz3 above and a wiz1 with this feat is the failure chance. Which, as someone pointed out, isn't hard and fast because of Arcane Spell Failure in armor the wiz3 could be wearing, or other problems that require a roll to cast.
Rod Howard 11-17-04, 09:10 PM	"Didn't say per day" is kind of lame, so I'll ignore that objection. It isn't lame. It is correct. Nowhere it states that "ability to cast 2nd level spells" implies multiple uses per day or different spells. You could cast different Webs, in different days, and that would mean being able to cast 2nd level spells.
Mucknuggle 11-17-04, 09:19 PM	It works, stop complaining about it. CA is a bad reprint, with some even worse new rules, just stop complaining about it. No wait, do complain about it, but not on the CO board. Complain to the game designers so that a bad product like this does not get released again.
Musrum 11-17-04, 09:24 PM	The plural in "spells" could also mean that there are multiple spells that qualify. e.g. The applicant must have at least 3-5 years experience working in industry related roles. If you had 4 years working in only one job which was relevant, you would certainly apply.
rilem 11-17-04, 10:11 PM	The best reason I think it should work -- though, judging by Rich Baker's comments, it won't for long -- is the implications of what happens if it doesn't work. As HoshiAdam suggested, a 3rd level Wizard of moderate intelligence wouldn't meet the MT requirements by a strict definition of the "2nd level spells" rule. (Though it's not really the case; the wizard can still cast at least two different spells, just far apart). The battle sorceror is even worse off. At 4th level, assuming 13 Cha, they only get 1 2nd spell, and can cast it only once per day. Are they to be prohibited from prestige classes because of a literal interpretation of this rule? I doubt that was WotC's intent. So, by that reasoning, the Precocious Spellcaster feat MUST work, because ruling otherwise would void existing Prestige Class progressions. (That's if you allow it at all. It's easy to toss). And, as Nihility pointed out in his thread, Rich Baker has promised a clarification that effectively rules this trick out — not because of the spell-plurality issue, but because, since you have to make a skill check each time, you can't expect to reliably cast 2nd level spells. He admits the reasoning is thin, but there it is.
EvilDuck 11-17-04, 10:28 PM	Yup, overwhelming evidence that it works. So min/maxxery for all! goes off to make some abusive builds