Post/Author/DateTime	Post
androcles 07-06-06, 05:25 AM	i was just looking at the preview for the tome of battle, and there's a feat that allows you to take a 5' step whenever an opponent provokes an AoO. and the best thing about it is that it doesnt count against your AoO's. so for example, if you have a guissarme/armor spikes, if the opponent runs away from you, you can run right after him and then still take a full attack action on your turn
BloodSpill 07-06-06, 05:50 AM	Or you could move through your opponent's threatened space and provoke an attack of opportunity. Yes, it sounds weird but I wouldn't be surprised if there were those out there that could actually use that.
androcles 07-06-06, 06:59 AM	you know what, i wouldnt be surprised if it showed up in a lot of heavy armor fighter builds, just because they have no movement capability, and this allows them to chase down a foe
VonRichthofen 07-06-06, 07:01 AM	@ androcles: Those capable of reading are at great advantage: The feat description says you can take a 5ft-step instead of your attack of opportunity.
Zemyla 07-06-06, 07:20 AM	So what does this mean for monk/elocators who've used the Sparring Dummy of the Masters?
Senevri 07-06-06, 07:32 AM	Sparring dummy... IIRC, Feat allows you to take a 5ft step instead of AoO Sparring Dummy training allows you to take a 10ft step instead of 5ft step...
androcles 07-06-06, 07:35 AM	@ androcles: Those capable of reading are at great advantage: The feat description says you can take a 5ft-step instead of your attack of opportunity. i am fully aware of that, however, while it says instead of an AoO, it does not say that it counts as your attack of opportunity for the round, as many other "instead of AoO" abilities do. i would also appreciate it if you would in the future refrain from insulting my intelligence.
Some Like It Hot 07-06-06, 07:58 AM	i am fully aware of that, however, while it says instead of an AoO, it does not say that it counts as your attack of opportunity for the round, as many other "instead of AoO" abilities do. i would also appreciate it if you would in the future refrain from insulting my intelligence. Before you reprimand someone, in writing no less, for insulting your intelligence, you should get a handle on basic English grammar. -SLIH
androcles 07-06-06, 08:23 AM	meaning what exactly?
Skulan 07-06-06, 08:28 AM	Before this thread sets a world acceleration record for flame wars, I think I'll start pondering the actual use of the feat. At first glance, it seems very niche. Being able to move 5 feet won't chase down anybody. Without the "only one AoO" rule, you could theoretically stay right behind them, but that smells like an ommission that will be corrected shortly. Perhaps a combination of excessive reach and the knight's ability to make difficult terrain? Combine with that new feat (Rogilar's Gambit, or something of the sort) to cause enemy attacks to provoke AoOs, then use your 5-foot step to escape the full attack action? There's got to be something better, but nothing's jumping to mind just now. -Skulan
Some Like It Hot 07-06-06, 08:31 AM	meaning what exactly? You should expect people to question your intelligence when the only thing in your post that was capitalized was AoO. -SLIH
androcles 07-06-06, 08:42 AM	personally i was thinking a treant with inhuman reach and a spiked chain with knight levels could do some battlefield control, especially with enlarge or expansion. the only thing that i would be worried about with that would be the net -2 dex penalty that treants get. this char. would end up with 30'-ish reach. also, if you manage to slip monkey grip into a build already strapped for feats, you might be able to get some extra reach out of it (i dont know if thats an official rule, but i know my dm allows it). with 35' reach you could seriously use pretty much any movement in order to reposition yourself. now if you combine that with a sparring dummy of the master, anytime an enemy within 35' moves 1 square, you can move 2. btw, the reason im not capitalizing everything is because im typing and feeding my son at the same time
tui 07-06-06, 12:17 PM	I think androcles's original question was really good... if Evasive Reflexes doesn't count as using your round's limit of AoOs, and you're weilding a reach weapon against someone who is trying to Withdraw away from you. Each time your foe moves from 10' to 15' away, he triggers an AoO from your reach weapon. Instead of attacking, you could 5' step closer. Then he goes 5' further, triggering a new AoO and 5' step (and so on). You'd end up 10' away from your opponent, allowing you to full attack on your turn. Of course this requires multiple 5' steps in a round to pull off.. which I think is safe to assume you can't do even without language saying that it uses your 5' step for the round. Where the feat would be more confusing is whether you could get the step when you've already either moved or taken your 5' step that round. I would assume not, unless the feat says you do. In any case, this discussion is probably better suited for the Skills and Feats board.
SKB 07-06-06, 12:30 PM	The withdraw is one AoO trigger. So, you-move-then-I-move done repeatedly would not work.
ThePo 07-06-06, 12:35 PM	I think androcles's original question was really good... if Evasive Reflexes doesn't count as using your round's limit of AoOs, and you're weilding a reach weapon against someone who is trying to Withdraw away from you. Each time your foe moves from 10' to 15' away, he triggers an AoO from your reach weapon. Instead of attacking, you could 5' step closer. Then he goes 5' further, triggering a new AoO and 5' step (and so on). You'd end up 10' away from your opponent, allowing you to full attack on your turn. Of course this requires multiple 5' steps in a round to pull off.. which I think is safe to assume you can't do even without language saying that it uses your 5' step for the round. Where the feat would be more confusing is whether you could get the step when you've already either moved or taken your 5' step that round. I would assume not, unless the feat says you do. In any case, this discussion is probably better suited for the Skills and Feats board. Only problem is that no enemy can provoke attacks of opportunity for movement more than once in a round. It's in the basic PHB as per the SRD. Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. So because of this rule you can't chase someone down.
Some Like It Hot 07-06-06, 12:39 PM	btw, the reason im not capitalizing everything is because im typing and feeding my son at the same time I apologize, most sincerely. Trying to get a moment to yourself and take care of the kids at the same time is hard. Try not to think ill of me, though I'm sure I've ruined the chances of that already. :blush: -SLIH
Some Like It Hot 07-06-06, 12:43 PM	Only problem is that no enemy can provoke attacks of opportunity for movement more than once in a round. It's in the basic PHB as per the SRD. So because of this rule you can't chase someone down. Hmm...didn't know that. -SLIH EDIT: Post revised for redundancy.
Kuroi Kenshi 07-06-06, 02:09 PM	Get off of your high horse about grammar when the person in question only didn't capitalize and sometimes left out final punctuation. There are so much worse offenses to commit when writing in the English language, and much more pertinent points at hand, like the rules related to the feat in question.
scarymike 07-06-06, 02:38 PM	The feat "Sidestep" from the Mini Handbook is much better. The pre-reqs are steep however. Anytime you can 5 foot step during someone elses turn, you can avoid full attacks, if you have reach. Person steps through your threatend square, you smack em (possibly trip or disarm or standstill) and them move 5 feet back. They can no longer attack you. works even better with Karmic strike or Robiliars gambit. They hit you once, you trip em and move 5 feet away.
Some Like It Hot 07-06-06, 02:57 PM	The feat "Sidestep" from the Mini Handbook is much better. The pre-reqs are steep however. Anytime you can 5 foot step during someone elses turn, you can avoid full attacks, if you have reach. Person steps through your threatend square, you smack em (possibly trip or disarm or standstill) and them move 5 feet back. They can no longer attack you. works even better with Karmic strike or Robiliars gambit. They hit you once, you trip em and move 5 feet away I think that these two in tandem would work very well together. Makes for some very tactical movement. Would be useful for getting into flanking position to help rogues. -SLIH
androcles 07-06-06, 03:08 PM	I apologize, most sincerely. Trying to get a moment to yourself and take care of the kids at the same time is hard. Try not to think ill of me, though I'm sure I've ruined the chances of that already. :blush: -SLIH i try not to formulate opinions on ppl till i meet them in person, so no worries. more on topic though, doesnt moving through diffucult terrain provoke aoo's, or is that just a house rule we adopted? even if it is a house rule i believe it's one that makes sense. on a further note, when exactly would the movement take place? because what i'm thinking is that if they move 5 feet, and then you take your 10'-step (sparring dummy of the master), then would you move into their square? and if so, wouldnt that effectively shut down their escape? hmm, i see lots of potential for this feat to do some pretty nasty stuff
allenchan 07-06-06, 03:26 PM	if they move 5 feet, and then you take your 10'-step (sparring dummy of the master), then would you move into their square? and if so, wouldnt that effectively shut down their escape? hmm, i see lots of potential for this feat to do some pretty nasty stuff No, you cannot enter another creature's square unless grappling, or they are two or more size catagories different then you. In which case, its still pointless. Personally, I dont find this feat "zomgz amazing". I think it'd be a nice little addition to some specific AoO builds that already exist, but the limitation on one AoO per action (ie movement) is pretty restrictive. And AFAIK difficult terrain doesnt provoke AoO, just costs double movement, and thats only for moving through it. Leaving difficult terrain doesnt have any hinderances at all, which is one reason why Knights arent so good.
Some Like It Hot 07-06-06, 03:34 PM	And AFAIK difficult terrain doesnt provoke AoO, just costs double movement, and thats only for moving through it. Leaving difficult terrain doesnt have any hinderances at all, which is one reason why Knights arent so good Because difficult terrain costs double movement you can't take a 5' step in it. Any movement through difficult terrain than an opponent is threatening provokes an AoO. Dumb question, but do you count the square that you're leaving or the square that you're moving into when calculating whether you loose movement? on a further note, when exactly would the movement take place? because what i'm thinking is that if they move 5 feet, and then you take your 10'-step (sparring dummy of the master), then would you move into their square? and if so, wouldnt that effectively shut down their escape? hmm, i see lots of potential for this feat to do some pretty nasty stuff If it takes place during your AoO, then it takes place before whatever provoked it. So, if used for Karmic Strike, you could get away to make it so that attack never happened. -SLIH
androcles 07-06-06, 06:02 PM	No, you cannot enter another creature's square unless grappling, or they are two or more size catagories different then you. yeah but with a large or huge creature, slap an expansion on them and suddenly its possible to enter their square. take for example, the treant knight i suggested. he is huge to start with, expand him to gargantuan, then when an enemy of large or smaller size tries to move away from melee with you he provokes the attack, you take a 10'-step, which takes you into his square for some nifty trample damage. the limitation on one AoO per action (ie movement) is pretty restrictive. you got me there. it is very restrictive.
kilroo 07-08-06, 11:04 PM	Dumb question, but do you count the square that you're leaving or the square that you're moving into when calculating whether you loose movement? -SLIH It's not a dumb question. Everything I have ever seen about difficult terrain or other movement-hampering conditions refers to moving either through (which doesn't help) or into. Therefore the way I have always interpreted it is that you count the square into which you are moving. However, the more I think about it, the more it seems that the other way around would make sense more often. Or at least some of the time. Imagine being in a sticky mud...er...thing. Stepping in isn't going to slow you down, but stepping out will. On the other hand, if you're dealing with loose rubble, you're going to have an easier time hopping off than stepping onto it. I'm pretty sure both my current DM's rule it as counting for the square you move into.
fil kearney 07-08-06, 11:30 PM	yeah but with a large or huge creature, slap an expansion on them and suddenly its possible to enter their square. take for example, the treant knight i suggested. he is huge to start with, expand him to gargantuan, then when an enemy of large or smaller size tries to move away from melee with you he provokes the attack, you take a 10'-step, which takes you into his square for some nifty trample damage. nice idea, that trampling. very clever
Zendu 07-09-06, 12:18 AM	im sorry, but usnt this just a crappy version of sidestep? (minihb) also, [qoute=srd]Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square.[/quote] (read my sig before any attempts to english/flame-optimise my post)
nittanytbone 07-09-06, 07:14 AM	It seems that this feat is easily combined with nanotechnology for fun and profit. Abused mildly: Have your ally provoke an AoO. Then use the 5' step to good advantage. Abused more: Get a few yappy lap dogs and train them to fall prone (free action) and then stand back up at your feet (or do anything else that provokes AoO with low consequences to you). They provoke AoOs and you get to move about the battle field as you wish. Abused mightily: Get a swarm of tiny animated objects, and have them enter your square (provokes an AoO). Move at velocity capped only by the number of objects following you around and the number of AoOs they can cause.
androcles 07-09-06, 08:35 AM	im sorry, but usnt this just a crappy version of sidestep? (minihb) not really, bc the pre-reqs for sidestep are verrry sharp, and the pre-reqs for this look like its going to be a 1 level dip. if my assumptions are correct, you could take this from the get-go, or at very latest level 3
kilroo 07-09-06, 09:28 AM	It seems that this feat is easily combined with nanotechnology for fun and profit. Abused mildly: Have your ally provoke an AoO. Then use the 5' step to good advantage. Abused more: Get a few yappy lap dogs and train them to fall prone (free action) and then stand back up at your feet (or do anything else that provokes AoO with low consequences to you). They provoke AoOs and you get to move about the battle field as you wish. Abused mightily: Get a swarm of tiny animated objects, and have them enter your square (provokes an AoO). Move at velocity capped only by the number of objects following you around and the number of AoOs they can cause. And then your DM has all of those dogs and nanocritters attack you because it does actually say it has to be an opponent. Which is kinda goofy in a way, but...