Ambush Optimization [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ambush Optimization [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Suin Bahhar
03-29-06, 02:11 PM How can a character make the most attacks in a surprise round? I want to optimize my GSword strength sneak with high initiave. Cleave seems the way to go but are there any other ways (dual strike stuff)?
RadicalTaoist
03-29-06, 02:14 PM 3 levels in Psion (or 4 in Wilder) and the Anticipatory Strike power from Races of Destiny is an option.
Suin Bahhar
03-29-06, 02:32 PM Wow thats a pretty neat power! Anyway of getting that from an item or with a dorje and UMD?
RadicalTaoist
03-29-06, 03:54 PM The skill you'll be looking for is Use Psionic Device. The problem is, if you use it in an item, then it's a standard action to activate, not an immediate action. You're better off taking the levels, sorry.
It's a sweet power for Psychic Rogues (from the Mind's Eye) to take with the Expanded Knoweldge feat, though.
Suin Bahhar
03-29-06, 05:14 PM Spellike devices use the castingtime of the spell they use, so an immediate action wand is possible. There are items with featherfalling, no?
Seeker of Truth
03-29-06, 07:42 PM No ... it's stated most clearly on page 4 of the spell compendium. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action even if the spell is an immediate action.
Timlagor
03-29-06, 10:56 PM Woodelf Wildrunner is a pretty good way to go.

If you're willing to wait 'til 15th level for it you can get:
- TWF, ITWF, GTWF
- OTWF + PA
- CoCL2 (Elegant Strike: Dex to Damage)
- Primal Scream (+6Dex, +2Str) + Bite attack
- Great Sneaky skills
- great sense skills
- POUNCE
- High Dex + Improved Initiative (for the upcoming Occult Slayer levels)
- Barb 1: Rage + Speed (now 60' unbuffed)

Unfortunately I couldn't squeeze Shock Trooper into this build (so try to get a flaw or two ;).

Combat plan:
- Creep up to gain surprise (this could be tricky -you only have maxed Hide+MS with a Dex-focussed build and you will need to get to within no more than 90'!)
- Scream

SURPRISE ROUND
- Roll Initiative (they aren't aware of you until you Sscream)
- Activate Boots of Speed
- Rage
- CHARGE! (full attack in the surprise round)
[that's 8 attacks btw and one more next level]

ROUND 1
- You'd better have jumped any obstacles (remember the +24 for speed) to get your full attack on the Elven Wizard with the hummingbird or you won't be going first.
(of course he had contingencies.. but hey ho... oh and your party is going to take 3 rounds to catch up)

Aside from such minor inconveniences you probably go first in this round and get another full attack while everyone else if flat-footed.
Gryftir
03-30-06, 01:14 AM No ... it's stated most clearly on page 4 of the spell compendium. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action even if the spell is an immediate action.

I believe that the DMG contradicts this. Is the spell compendium core (I don't have it). If not, I think the DMG overrides it.
RadicalTaoist
03-30-06, 07:41 AM Technically, you'd go to the XPH, as that has the rules on psionic items.

And the only item of feather fall I can think of off the top of my head has a constant effect (the ring). No activation. And it explicitly states so.
nittanytbone
03-30-06, 07:53 AM "Run" combined with "Fleet of Foot" might be helpful. Fleet of Foot lets you make one direction change during a run or charge action. It is kind of a waste of feats for you, but if you have a mount that can take them (horses already get Run by the book anyways) then it could allow you to make more effective charges during your surprise round.

I think Fleet of Foot is from Complete Warrior.
Kimbal
03-30-06, 09:27 AM About Anticipatory Strike, you can't use it if you are flatflooted, ergo you can't use it in the first round of combat until it is your turn, so you won't get any sneak attacks with it
Timlagor
03-30-06, 09:08 PM I believe that the DMG contradicts this. Is the spell compendium core (I don't have it). If not, I think the DMG overrides it.

the DMG most definitely does not contradict this. What it says is that spells that take longer than a standard action take that long to activate from a spell trigger item. It says nothing about quicker spells.

I believe Complete Arcane strongly implies that wands of Swift Spells can exist and be used as Swift Actions though.
Wizard Random
03-30-06, 11:12 PM Don't get me wrong, but the word Ambush used in DnD i think would describe one huge burst of damage. If that is in fact what your looking for i belive there was a build that had like 27d6 sneak attack damage.
RadicalTaoist
03-31-06, 01:47 AM About Anticipatory Strike, you can't use it if you are flatflooted, ergo you can't use it in the first round of combat until it is your turn, so you won't get any sneak attacks with it
Ideally you're initiating the surprise round, so you're not flatfooted.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suin Bahhar 03-29-06, 02:11 PM	How can a character make the most attacks in a surprise round? I want to optimize my GSword strength sneak with high initiave. Cleave seems the way to go but are there any other ways (dual strike stuff)?
RadicalTaoist 03-29-06, 02:14 PM	3 levels in Psion (or 4 in Wilder) and the Anticipatory Strike power from Races of Destiny is an option.
Suin Bahhar 03-29-06, 02:32 PM	Wow thats a pretty neat power! Anyway of getting that from an item or with a dorje and UMD?
RadicalTaoist 03-29-06, 03:54 PM	The skill you'll be looking for is Use Psionic Device. The problem is, if you use it in an item, then it's a standard action to activate, not an immediate action. You're better off taking the levels, sorry. It's a sweet power for Psychic Rogues (from the Mind's Eye) to take with the Expanded Knoweldge feat, though.
Suin Bahhar 03-29-06, 05:14 PM	Spellike devices use the castingtime of the spell they use, so an immediate action wand is possible. There are items with featherfalling, no?
Seeker of Truth 03-29-06, 07:42 PM	No ... it's stated most clearly on page 4 of the spell compendium. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action even if the spell is an immediate action.
Timlagor 03-29-06, 10:56 PM	Woodelf Wildrunner is a pretty good way to go. If you're willing to wait 'til 15th level for it you can get: - TWF, ITWF, GTWF - OTWF + PA - CoCL2 (Elegant Strike: Dex to Damage) - Primal Scream (+6Dex, +2Str) + Bite attack - Great Sneaky skills - great sense skills - POUNCE - High Dex + Improved Initiative (for the upcoming Occult Slayer levels) - Barb 1: Rage + Speed (now 60' unbuffed) Unfortunately I couldn't squeeze Shock Trooper into this build (so try to get a flaw or two ;). Combat plan: - Creep up to gain surprise (this could be tricky -you only have maxed Hide+MS with a Dex-focussed build and you will need to get to within no more than 90'!) - Scream SURPRISE ROUND - Roll Initiative (they aren't aware of you until you Sscream) - Activate Boots of Speed - Rage - CHARGE! (full attack in the surprise round) [that's 8 attacks btw and one more next level] ROUND 1 - You'd better have jumped any obstacles (remember the +24 for speed) to get your full attack on the Elven Wizard with the hummingbird or you won't be going first. (of course he had contingencies.. but hey ho... oh and your party is going to take 3 rounds to catch up) Aside from such minor inconveniences you probably go first in this round and get another full attack while everyone else if flat-footed.
Gryftir 03-30-06, 01:14 AM	No ... it's stated most clearly on page 4 of the spell compendium. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action even if the spell is an immediate action. I believe that the DMG contradicts this. Is the spell compendium core (I don't have it). If not, I think the DMG overrides it.
RadicalTaoist 03-30-06, 07:41 AM	Technically, you'd go to the XPH, as that has the rules on psionic items. And the only item of feather fall I can think of off the top of my head has a constant effect (the ring). No activation. And it explicitly states so.
nittanytbone 03-30-06, 07:53 AM	"Run" combined with "Fleet of Foot" might be helpful. Fleet of Foot lets you make one direction change during a run or charge action. It is kind of a waste of feats for you, but if you have a mount that can take them (horses already get Run by the book anyways) then it could allow you to make more effective charges during your surprise round. I think Fleet of Foot is from Complete Warrior.
Kimbal 03-30-06, 09:27 AM	About Anticipatory Strike, you can't use it if you are flatflooted, ergo you can't use it in the first round of combat until it is your turn, so you won't get any sneak attacks with it
Timlagor 03-30-06, 09:08 PM	I believe that the DMG contradicts this. Is the spell compendium core (I don't have it). If not, I think the DMG overrides it. the DMG most definitely does not contradict this. What it says is that spells that take longer than a standard action take that long to activate from a spell trigger item. It says nothing about quicker spells. I believe Complete Arcane strongly implies that wands of Swift Spells can exist and be used as Swift Actions though.
Wizard Random 03-30-06, 11:12 PM	Don't get me wrong, but the word Ambush used in DnD i think would describe one huge burst of damage. If that is in fact what your looking for i belive there was a build that had like 27d6 sneak attack damage.
RadicalTaoist 03-31-06, 01:47 AM	About Anticipatory Strike, you can't use it if you are flatflooted, ergo you can't use it in the first round of combat until it is your turn, so you won't get any sneak attacks with it Ideally you're initiating the surprise round, so you're not flatfooted.