Amusing Security System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Amusing Security System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Skulan
12-07-05, 02:33 AM A friend and I were discussing the standard kobold defense strategy: hole up behind dangerous traps and let loose with ranged attacks from a numerically superior force. Thinking about how awful traps are to find, I started wondering if PCs could use them, and that's when I struck a problem: expense. Anyone who has read the trap rules may remember that a standard pit trap costs 1800 gold, presumably 600 gp if you craft it yourself. So I got to thinking: isn't there a better way for a kobold village to protect themselves with that money?

As it turns out, there is.

Minimum caster level for Lesser Planar Binding is 9, for a wizard. By the equipment charts, that would cost 450 gp to get someone to cast it for you. Another 150 gp gets you the Magic Circle spell needed to make it all work. There's your 600 gold. So what do you do with it? Hire a Bearded Devil to guard your village for the next century. If that's considered too open-ended (and thus only securing the devil for 9 days), get creative. "Patrol the outer tunnels, on foot, four million times." In any case, you now have a CR 5 monster wandering around to protect your kobold clan, instead of the puny, immobile CR 1 pit trap. And you'll have as many devils walking around as you would have had traps, which (considering most kobold villages) would be a few.

I realize that there are a few problems. One, the devil might make his save. Two, the wizard might want hazard pay. And so on. But still, from a pure economics standpoint, it seems to work.

Now, apart from just throwing out an odd trick, I'd like to turn this over to optimization exercises. What's the best outsider you can pull in with Lesser Planar Binding to protect your kobolds, and what's the best way of avoiding horrific, bloody death at the hands of your would-be security guard? I thought about using a Succubus, which clocks in at 6 HD and a CR 7, but I thought a Lawful creature would be a good idea, under the circumstances. And I didn't look anywhere but the SRD, so I'm sure there's plenty of other outsiders that could work. Anyway, that's the thought. Enjoy.

-Skulan
X-Codes
12-07-05, 02:48 AM Bearded Devil starts walking through the corridors. He comes across a party of adventurers. With a hearty bow, he greets them and points them in the direction of the kobold's main stronghold and continues walking along his path.

Or...

Bearded Devil starts walking through the corridors and encounters a group of kobolds. He unexpededly pounces on them and tears them to shreds with his claws.

Kobolds make pit traps because pit traps aren't smart enough to kill them, and trust me, any sentient demon is going to be really ****** about getting yanked outta his home and into some wizard's trap.
catharz
12-07-05, 02:51 AM Kobolds are Kobolds because they haven't realized how much their pit traps would fetch on the open market.
Zathyr
12-07-05, 03:25 AM How in the holy hell does it take 600 gold to dig a friggin pit?
xerofire
12-07-05, 03:28 AM On the up side for Kobolds, with all those creatures working in shifts they build traps really fast......

If they ever got a leader to organize them make mobile war machines that'd be scary....

Imagine a colony of low level kobold artificers.... :D
Cauthon
12-07-05, 07:15 AM How in the holy hell does it take 600 gold to dig a friggin pit?

Manpower. :P

And those stakes don't carve themselves you know!
Skulan
12-07-05, 02:38 PM Well, by the rules, mechanical traps have a base cost of 1000. The search DC on a camouflaged pit trap is 24, so that bumps the cost to 1800, or 1/3 of that if you craft it. I really don't get it, either. D&D craft rules always assume you're buying raw materials from somewhere, and have no mechanism for crafting something when the raw materials are all there. I doubt they're hiring laborers. At 3 sp per day, we're talking ten kobolds working 200 days to make one pit trap. You'd think they could bump it up a bit better.

As for the devil letting adventurers through and/or slaughtering kobolds, well, yes. That's why I'm looking for ways around that. There's got to be an ironclad deal somewhere. Or a more benevolent, protector-ish outsider to call.

-Skulan
PhaedrusXY
12-07-05, 02:54 PM Yes, the D&D crafting rules are horrible. You're better off just scrapping them entirely if you actually want crafting rules that work. I've seen several homebrewed crafting systems that work better, but unfortunately I didn't save any links to give you.What's the best outsider you can pull in with Lesser Planar Binding to protect your kobolds, and what's the best way of avoiding horrific, bloody death at the hands of your would-be security guard?Get a Nightmare, and abuse its Etherealness and Astral Projection abilities. Then you don't have to actually rely on it to defend you directly. You just use it to make your "guards" invincible. The Nightmare itself just chills on the Ethereal Plane and sends any of the guards back that manage to get their Astral bodies killed. :D
ninja1
12-07-05, 03:21 PM A big lightbulb above my head materialized when I decided to apply the profit portion of craft or profession skills to track the progress for attaining the "raw material cost" of craft checks.

For example, to track the progress of our Kobolds pit trap we would first determine the cost of raw materials (600 gp from this example).

Then, have our team of kobold trap builders begin making craft checks as if they were rolling to earn a weekly income. (1/2 skill check in gp per week... SRD lists this for Profession, but not Craft... PHB lists for both skills)

Once 600 gp worth of work was achieved, then our team of kobold trap builders make craft checks to construct the trap.

The net result gives us completion times. The end product is one trap and zero gold.

Sure the trap is effectively Free for the Kobold overlord, but the labor does have an effective value that is pretty high IMHO....

(Edit: this application of skill checks is to comply with the cumbersome game mechanics... the flavor text for the kobolds in game is one/single, long, sweaty, job; the product of which is a single trap)
Skulan
12-07-05, 03:45 PM Hm... I really like that idea, actually. Profession (miner) and the like to provide raw materials... that's pretty neat. And since those skills would magically provide gold, anyway ("You want to buy my baskets! Basketweaving is king!"), it makes sense that the nebulous income would then go into craft production.

-Skulan
ninja1
12-07-05, 04:15 PM Cool, I started a thread outlining this approach and got one response (but a good one!).

If you are interested in checking it out, you can find it <here> (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=529597)

The key point I would like to make is that Free Labor does not equate to Equivalent Cash on Hand.

When you write: "isn't there a better way for a kobold village to protect themselves with that money?" I think it is important to note, that kobolds making traps for themselves don't need any money.

If a Kobold Overlord had several thousand gold, and a foolproof disguise/middleman to purchase stuff on the open market, then I'd expect those pricey goodies in addition to tons of kobold built traps.

Also, when you write: "those skills would magically provide gold, anyway ("You want to buy my baskets! Basketweaving is king!")" I would reinforce that as the DM, you are the final arbitar in financial aspects of your campaign.

Just because Profession (basketweaver) / Craft (basketweaving) could generate a weekly income, shouldn't stop you from making on the spot rulings for/against outlandish results.

Sure, we could pump out outrageous skill check results, but what small village could support a craftsman capable of DC 100 basketweaving check every week?

In the end, no matter what attempt to crush an economy, all a DM has to say is..... No. :)

(edit: I am so off to check out the nightmare thing.... as I recall, there's a nice BoVD spell for calling one with a significant duration)
SwordOfJustUs
12-07-05, 04:36 PM Rember also, prices set forth in the various handbooks are a guideline for player characters, those prices do not need apply to NPCs.

a hidden mechanical trap costs you X gold bacause you dont have 200 kobolds scavanging stuff and digging in the dirt to make them.

I havent looked but it would prolly only cost you copper or silver to have a perverbial 10foot hole dug, but to camo it pay other fees or experts etc, and keep you the player from creating 20 billion holes, it costs money.

*warning heretical statement to follow*

the DnD rules are guidelines not absolutes, just cause it says it in the "rules" doesnt always make it so.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Skulan 12-07-05, 02:33 AM	A friend and I were discussing the standard kobold defense strategy: hole up behind dangerous traps and let loose with ranged attacks from a numerically superior force. Thinking about how awful traps are to find, I started wondering if PCs could use them, and that's when I struck a problem: expense. Anyone who has read the trap rules may remember that a standard pit trap costs 1800 gold, presumably 600 gp if you craft it yourself. So I got to thinking: isn't there a better way for a kobold village to protect themselves with that money? As it turns out, there is. Minimum caster level for Lesser Planar Binding is 9, for a wizard. By the equipment charts, that would cost 450 gp to get someone to cast it for you. Another 150 gp gets you the Magic Circle spell needed to make it all work. There's your 600 gold. So what do you do with it? Hire a Bearded Devil to guard your village for the next century. If that's considered too open-ended (and thus only securing the devil for 9 days), get creative. "Patrol the outer tunnels, on foot, four million times." In any case, you now have a CR 5 monster wandering around to protect your kobold clan, instead of the puny, immobile CR 1 pit trap. And you'll have as many devils walking around as you would have had traps, which (considering most kobold villages) would be a few. I realize that there are a few problems. One, the devil might make his save. Two, the wizard might want hazard pay. And so on. But still, from a pure economics standpoint, it seems to work. Now, apart from just throwing out an odd trick, I'd like to turn this over to optimization exercises. What's the best outsider you can pull in with Lesser Planar Binding to protect your kobolds, and what's the best way of avoiding horrific, bloody death at the hands of your would-be security guard? I thought about using a Succubus, which clocks in at 6 HD and a CR 7, but I thought a Lawful creature would be a good idea, under the circumstances. And I didn't look anywhere but the SRD, so I'm sure there's plenty of other outsiders that could work. Anyway, that's the thought. Enjoy. -Skulan
X-Codes 12-07-05, 02:48 AM	Bearded Devil starts walking through the corridors. He comes across a party of adventurers. With a hearty bow, he greets them and points them in the direction of the kobold's main stronghold and continues walking along his path. Or... Bearded Devil starts walking through the corridors and encounters a group of kobolds. He unexpededly pounces on them and tears them to shreds with his claws. Kobolds make pit traps because pit traps aren't smart enough to kill them, and trust me, any sentient demon is going to be really ****** about getting yanked outta his home and into some wizard's trap.
catharz 12-07-05, 02:51 AM	Kobolds are Kobolds because they haven't realized how much their pit traps would fetch on the open market.
Zathyr 12-07-05, 03:25 AM	How in the holy hell does it take 600 gold to dig a friggin pit?
xerofire 12-07-05, 03:28 AM	On the up side for Kobolds, with all those creatures working in shifts they build traps really fast...... If they ever got a leader to organize them make mobile war machines that'd be scary.... Imagine a colony of low level kobold artificers.... :D
Cauthon 12-07-05, 07:15 AM	How in the holy hell does it take 600 gold to dig a friggin pit? Manpower. :P And those stakes don't carve themselves you know!
Skulan 12-07-05, 02:38 PM	Well, by the rules, mechanical traps have a base cost of 1000. The search DC on a camouflaged pit trap is 24, so that bumps the cost to 1800, or 1/3 of that if you craft it. I really don't get it, either. D&D craft rules always assume you're buying raw materials from somewhere, and have no mechanism for crafting something when the raw materials are all there. I doubt they're hiring laborers. At 3 sp per day, we're talking ten kobolds working 200 days to make one pit trap. You'd think they could bump it up a bit better. As for the devil letting adventurers through and/or slaughtering kobolds, well, yes. That's why I'm looking for ways around that. There's got to be an ironclad deal somewhere. Or a more benevolent, protector-ish outsider to call. -Skulan
PhaedrusXY 12-07-05, 02:54 PM	Yes, the D&D crafting rules are horrible. You're better off just scrapping them entirely if you actually want crafting rules that work. I've seen several homebrewed crafting systems that work better, but unfortunately I didn't save any links to give you.What's the best outsider you can pull in with Lesser Planar Binding to protect your kobolds, and what's the best way of avoiding horrific, bloody death at the hands of your would-be security guard?Get a Nightmare, and abuse its Etherealness and Astral Projection abilities. Then you don't have to actually rely on it to defend you directly. You just use it to make your "guards" invincible. The Nightmare itself just chills on the Ethereal Plane and sends any of the guards back that manage to get their Astral bodies killed. :D
ninja1 12-07-05, 03:21 PM	A big lightbulb above my head materialized when I decided to apply the profit portion of craft or profession skills to track the progress for attaining the "raw material cost" of craft checks. For example, to track the progress of our Kobolds pit trap we would first determine the cost of raw materials (600 gp from this example). Then, have our team of kobold trap builders begin making craft checks as if they were rolling to earn a weekly income. (1/2 skill check in gp per week... SRD lists this for Profession, but not Craft... PHB lists for both skills) Once 600 gp worth of work was achieved, then our team of kobold trap builders make craft checks to construct the trap. The net result gives us completion times. The end product is one trap and zero gold. Sure the trap is effectively Free for the Kobold overlord, but the labor does have an effective value that is pretty high IMHO.... (Edit: this application of skill checks is to comply with the cumbersome game mechanics... the flavor text for the kobolds in game is one/single, long, sweaty, job; the product of which is a single trap)
Skulan 12-07-05, 03:45 PM	Hm... I really like that idea, actually. Profession (miner) and the like to provide raw materials... that's pretty neat. And since those skills would magically provide gold, anyway ("You want to buy my baskets! Basketweaving is king!"), it makes sense that the nebulous income would then go into craft production. -Skulan
ninja1 12-07-05, 04:15 PM	Cool, I started a thread outlining this approach and got one response (but a good one!). If you are interested in checking it out, you can find it <here> (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=529597) The key point I would like to make is that Free Labor does not equate to Equivalent Cash on Hand. When you write: "isn't there a better way for a kobold village to protect themselves with that money?" I think it is important to note, that kobolds making traps for themselves don't need any money. If a Kobold Overlord had several thousand gold, and a foolproof disguise/middleman to purchase stuff on the open market, then I'd expect those pricey goodies in addition to tons of kobold built traps. Also, when you write: "those skills would magically provide gold, anyway ("You want to buy my baskets! Basketweaving is king!")" I would reinforce that as the DM, you are the final arbitar in financial aspects of your campaign. Just because Profession (basketweaver) / Craft (basketweaving) could generate a weekly income, shouldn't stop you from making on the spot rulings for/against outlandish results. Sure, we could pump out outrageous skill check results, but what small village could support a craftsman capable of DC 100 basketweaving check every week? In the end, no matter what attempt to crush an economy, all a DM has to say is..... No. :) (edit: I am so off to check out the nightmare thing.... as I recall, there's a nice BoVD spell for calling one with a significant duration)
SwordOfJustUs 12-07-05, 04:36 PM	Rember also, prices set forth in the various handbooks are a guideline for player characters, those prices do not need apply to NPCs. a hidden mechanical trap costs you X gold bacause you dont have 200 kobolds scavanging stuff and digging in the dirt to make them. I havent looked but it would prolly only cost you copper or silver to have a perverbial 10foot hole dug, but to camo it pay other fees or experts etc, and keep you the player from creating 20 billion holes, it costs money. warning heretical statement to follow the DnD rules are guidelines not absolutes, just cause it says it in the "rules" doesnt always make it so.