Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CompleteSatori 02-11-04, 03:56 PM	Dont know why I didnt think of this earlier, but my CN FrzBsrk at 10th level gets a 4-1 return on her power attack, yes? Well I have already used the True Striking, charging PA +17 death FB, and let me tell you how insane that is, but thats old news. Heres a continuation of the same combat... So we know that on the initial charge, the Frenzied Berserker does insane damage right? (Clocked mine at 2d6(greatsword)+ 24 (str 40 [20 natural plus 6 Str item plus 4 rage and 10 berserk] plus +2 weapon in 2 hands) + 68 (PA +17) + Valorous Charge enchantment = 190 average damage on a die roll, and 196 max.) So thats gross enough for a character thats not overspecialized, please note thats raging AND frenzied, but it gets worse! So the first hit is huge, and strikes @ +39, but the next round the damage usually peters down, as you are now in melee with multi attacks but no True Strike to let you PA alot right? So I had an amulet of Sadism made... :mymy: Now that first charge gives my lovely FB a +19 luck bonus on his next round of attacks/skill checks/saves, allowing him to PA for lots of damage, take ANY spell damage and make the save and then that cycle continues on for many rounds, with NO diminishing returns. Heres my quick breakdown of Sadism charging/melee goodness. 1st Round: 190 damage charge/+19 to attacks next round. 2nd Round: 5 attacks PA for 17, average 98 damage per attack. Thats ALL added together for total of 490 average, with 36/36/31/26/21 to hit. 3rd Round: 5 attacks PA for 17, luck bonus of +49 to hit on each. Add in the Str and enchantment to hit, and you have a +66/66/61/56/51/ attack round EVERY round. 4-nth Round: Average damage 490 with 5 attacks that cant miss. Now I know that there are some Hulking Hurler and other rarified builds that are better, but this is MUCH more acheivable in an average campaign, and when you add in Deathless Frenzy, etc etc, this is a virtual killing machine that has NO end, and can make his save to get out of Frenzy at will due to high Sadism luck bonus to saves. All you need is a hihg Con score, and a good cleric or a potion of Heal accessible via a Master Alchemist (MoF) and you are fine afterwards. EDIT: I did NOT make a combination Sadism/Masochism item intentionally, as even though it is the Uber extent of this build, it is also a Minor Artifact in the BoVD, and I don't need it to be THAT badass. EDIT: Man I need to stop editing, but GODS help you if you Supreme Cleave a few times, as that to hit bonus just KEEPS ON GOING UP!!!
nihility 02-11-04, 04:08 PM	Combine that with a way to get HP back by doing damage, such as the ol' +X Wrathful Healing weapon, and you don't even need the heal potion. You and this build (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144104) need to sit down and talk. Good work.
CompleteSatori 02-11-04, 04:16 PM	Tx Nih, I was including the Heal potions as this guy has no room for Horizon Walker levels, and wants to avoid being Fatigued after all of that Rage/Berserking. I had thought about Wrathful Healing, and we will see if I can get my DM to approve that bit of powergameage. In an optimal build you are correct, that would be the best way to go, as well as mixing up some of those feats from CW for more damage, but this guy is actually very RP'able with the extraneous feats he has outside of FB prereqs, and I wanted to keep it that way, as thats the attraction to real game play.
newblar32 02-11-04, 07:07 PM
LordShade 02-12-04, 12:37 AM	Satori, You have skillz. Hat's off to you.
CompleteSatori 02-12-04, 02:20 AM	Originally posted by newblar32 Also it's an evil spell...so being an evil spell this would have consequences if any of your party members are good. Meh. Frenzied Berserker is not exactly what I would call a GOOD class. I mean, you attack your friends, you make THEM lose control and Frenzy... The only FB's I've played have been some version of Chaotic non good. CN for the one in question to be exact. As for follow through, here is what this build would look like with some cross breeding from the build that Nih linked... Barbarian2/Fighter 4/Frenzied Berserk 10/Berserk 2/xx2 Feats: 1st- Power Attack, Intimidating Rage 3rd- Destructive Rage, Cleave 4th- Improved Sunder 6th- Extra Rage, Combat Brute 9th- Improved Bullrush 12th- Shock Trooper 15th- Extended Rage 18th- Greater Cleave Special Abilities: Rage 3/Day, Uncanny Dodge, Fast Movement +20 Greater Frenzy 5/Day, Diehard, Supreme Cleave, Deathless Frenzy, Supreme Power Attack, Inspire Frenzy 3/Day, Tireless Frenzy, Battle Fury 1/day, DR -/1 Primary Stat: Strength 16/18 with level, Con 16/18 with level On a 25 point buy. Dump stats Cha/Int/Dex. Equipment: Amulet of Sadism (Use Activated x5/Day, caster level 20), Belt of Mighty Prowess, +3 Furious, Wrathful Healing, Valorous Charge Greatsword Tome of Strength +5, Tome of Con +5, Mithril Breastplate +4 Now heres the breakdown. Rage + Furious weapon = +6 Strength/ +6 Constitution Battle Rage + Furious weapon = +8 Strength/ +8 Constitution Frenzy = +10 Strength and one additional attack Belt of Prowess = +6 Strength/ +6 Constitution = 53 Strength (+21)/ 43 Constitution (+16) Thats 21 rounds of Frenzy/Rage/Battle Rage (Extended Rage). Now for the painful part. Damage breakdown. 1st Round: Drink Potion of True Strike, move to Charge distance. 2nd Round: Charge, PA for full Base Attack (+19 assuming levels 19 and 20 are Full BA) Frenzy/Battle Rage/Rage as a free action Hit @ +65 with an AC of 0 due to Shock Troop, Average damage = 113.5 * 2 = 227. 3rd Round: Full Round PA with full Base Attack Hit @ 43 + 22 Luck = 65/65/60/55/50 Average damage 116 * 5 = 580 4th Round: Full Round PA with full Base Attack and Momentum Swing Hit @ 43 + 58 Luck = 101/101/96/91/86 Average damage 148 * 5 = 740 Note that these Luck bonuses apply to both Attacks/Skills/Saves. No more missing those critical save or die rolls, and with Wrathful Healing, you are getting back half of that damage. Just call it the unkilla character and be done with it. Oh ya, step aside if it comes barreling your way, its got a mean temper. Note: There really isnt any need for Combat Brute or Shock Troop, but AC just isnt important, and the mechanics of the feats might come in handy in general combat, so why not eh? I made the assumption that FB's Supreme PA would stack with Combat Brute the same way everything else does, ie: x4 + x3 = x6 PA. EDIT: Again, may the gods help the poor bastards who are anywhere near a 5' step when the first/second/third/etc baddy goes down, cause that attack aint gonna miss, and its gonna HURT!!
Elmaster of Thay 02-12-04, 02:35 AM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori So I had an amulet of Sadism made... :mymy: We had a fighter/monk/blackguard/disciple of dispater/weapon master who did the same. Nedless to say, sadism is a baned spell in our games now :ayyyy!: Originally posted by CompleteSatori Meh. Frenzied Berserker is not exactly what I would call a GOOD class. I mean, you attack your friends, you make THEM lose control and Frenzy... You know, I always wondered if the feat righteous wrath (BoED) could be used as a loophole to prevent you from harming your party members. It should work as long as you are in a barbarian rage at the same time, I think...
DeadEye 02-12-04, 02:41 AM	One problem, but not with the Sadism bit. You mentioned a combined Sadism/Masochism possibility. However, wouldn't this give you two luck bonuses? Say you dealt 190 damage in a round, giving you a +19 luck bonus from Sadism, and received 70 damage in a round, giving you a +7 luck bonus from Masochism. This wouldn't stack, would it? You'd end up with a +19, as that overpowers the +7 from the Masochism luck bonus. Frenzied Berserker + Combat Brute + Shock Trooper + Wrathful Healing weapon of Speed still very tasty, though. Adding Sadism just makes it absolutely delicious. Who wouldn't love six max PA-ed attacks while taking the attack penalty from your AC, expecially since you're absorbing metric craploads of hitpoints with your attacks anyway? And I'd love to see someone trying to drop spells on you with those +40-something luck bonuses to saves.
CompleteSatori 02-12-04, 03:44 AM	For one, Righteous Wrath specifically mentions Rage, which is not Frenzy, which is why they stack. It is NOT specific, but its my inclination to say that it does not remove the 'Attack everything that moves' part of Frenzy. Second, you run Sadism and Masochism concurrently just in case the Luck bonus from one is higher than the other, that way you are always receiving bonus' to your saves and attacks, wether you hit or not! Third, that weapon is NOT a weapon of Speed, FB's get a free attack at their highest bonus as if they were hasted. I used Wrathful Healing in conjunction with Frenzied (Increases bonuses to Rage by a step from +4 - +6 or +6- +8), and then Valorous Charge for HUGE upfront damage to get that Luck bonus going.
DodgerJPS 02-12-04, 06:35 AM	Hm, just a suggestion about the amulett of sadism: Amulett of sadism (1/day persistent sadism, command word activated: DIE!); 23.760 GP or if ur gm is in a good mood :rolleyes: Amulett of sadism (1/day persistent sadism, use activated); 13.200 GP If I didn 't miscalculate those things are pretty cheap stuff for pretty much effekt :D guess I 'll get one too, thx for the idea. btw: Originally posted by CompleteSatori Barbarian2/Fighter 4/Frenzied Berserk 10/Berserk 2/xx2 what do u mean by berserk? in which book is this PrC? And what is a valourus charge weapon?
Devlin_StormWeave 02-12-04, 07:25 AM	in your first post you state that you are level 10, if this is correct then you can only power attack for +10, due to power attacking has a maximum of your BAB. (i play 3.0. if the rules for max PA has changed in 3.5 sorry) If i have read you post incorrectly i apologise.
toftof 02-12-04, 11:23 AM	valorous: unapprochable east berzerk: deities and demigods
Hva 02-12-04, 11:40 AM	Originally posted by Devlin_StormWeave in your first post you state that you are level 10, if this is correct then you can only power attack for +10, due to power attacking has a maximum of your BAB. (i play 3.0. if the rules for max PA has changed in 3.5 sorry) If i have read you post incorrectly i apologise. frenzied berserker gives you power attack of 1-4 this means power attack of 10 gives 40 damage:D
CompleteSatori 02-12-04, 01:36 PM	Hva: I was actually restating the Supreme Power Attack ability that Frenzied Berserkers get at 10th level of the class. Not that my character is 10th level, the first and real build is level 17, and the second iteration is 18-20. Dodger: The breakdown for Command Word items is Spell Level * Caster Level * 1800. For a Sadism spell cast at 3rd level ya, thats cheap, but thats only 3 rounds of Sadism, clearly not enough for this character, or that level of combat. So I made it Use Activated... At Spell Level * Caster Level * 2000 * 4 = 48,000. So this guys is ON pretty much 24/7. Much safer that way.
DeadEye 02-12-04, 04:26 PM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori Third, that weapon is NOT a weapon of Speed, FB's get a free attack at their highest bonus as if they were hasted. I used Wrathful Healing in conjunction with Frenzied (Increases bonuses to Rage by a step from +4 - +6 or +6- +8), and then Valorous Charge for HUGE upfront damage to get that Luck bonus going. I'd still say Sadism's probably more than enough on its own. Oh well. YMMV. And is that right about the Frenzied Berserker's extra attack being 'as if hasted'? Crud, I wasn't aware of that. Have to re-read my CW...
CompleteSatori 02-12-04, 11:06 PM	Ya, they are pretty specific about the extra attack not stacking with Haste or other effects that grant additional attacks. Did you have a hasted FB?
mean_liar 02-12-04, 11:32 PM	Great build. I really like the fact that with the Luck bonus going you're easily able to make your save to end your Frenzy early. I suggest an Amulet of Fortune Revealed (MiniHB), if only because at the end of combat if you roll a '1' to end your Frenzy you're going to kill a PC more or less guaranteed.
CompleteSatori 02-13-04, 02:13 AM	Meh, at this point in the build, I almost just want to leave the possibility of a natural 1 up to fate. If the gods needs a blood sacrafice, then thats that! And pray you aren't the poor bastard in the way! :smirk: Also, at exactly average roll, this character has 397 hit points at 18th level while rage/zerk/frenzy. Thats so disgusting, I can't even live with myself. Then again, maybe I can.
Grizley 02-13-04, 03:17 AM	This is why those horribly balanced books have been forbidden in every campagin I have played in. No urpriest, no sadism, no nothing. Not that I blame them, but still.
DodgerJPS 02-13-04, 04:15 AM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori Dodger: The breakdown for Command Word items is Spell Level * Caster Level * 1800. For a Sadism spell cast at 3rd level ya, thats cheap, but thats only 3 rounds of Sadism, clearly not enough for this character, or that level of combat. So I made it Use Activated... At Spell Level * Caster Level * 2000 * 4 = 48,000. So this guys is ON pretty much 24/7. Much safer that way. Then how about my second suggestion: Amulett of sadism (1/day persistent sadism, use activated); 13.200 GP That makes Spell Level 6 (sadism 2 +4 for persistent) * caster Level 11 * 2000 gp(for use activated) = 132000 / 2 (for a spell with a 24 hour duration) = 66000 / 5 (for an item with just 1 charge) = 13200 gp :D Only disadvantage: if u get dispelled u 'll have to wait till tomorrow to start ur combo all over again.
CompleteSatori 02-13-04, 01:29 PM	Well mostly because I have yet to see any high level combat go by without Dispel or even Greater Dispels fly around like mad, it is the best tactic anyone with access to the spell has to even the playing ground, and I have no desire to be hamstrung by the loss of an item for a whole day. Better to pay the cost for a true Use Activated Item, and only lose it for d4 rounds.
DeadEye 02-15-04, 01:51 AM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori Ya, they are pretty specific about the extra attack not stacking with Haste or other effects that grant additional attacks. Did you have a hasted FB? No, luckily. I was considering creating a FB as my next character sometime soon, and I haven't actually gone through and checked the specific wording of the Frenzy. Ah well.
Golem1972 02-15-04, 06:53 AM	Since this build doesn't care if it gets hit, and sacrifieces AC, has anyone considered adding in Karmic Strike? I mean, as long as you are getting hit, you might as well make them pay for hitting you. Has anyone checked the damage potential of this build with the standard spiked chain build added in in some way? If you are using a Large character and a large or huge chain, it seems like there's a lot of damage potential there. Last but not least, I notice that your build has 2 empty levels. Perhaps something like Bear Warrior 1/ War Shaper 1 (to become immune to crits) would be useful? Though, I am sure there is a much better use for those 2 levels. Your build has given me some pretty good ideas for my half ogre barb. Thanks a lot.
CompleteSatori 02-15-04, 11:33 AM	Anytime Golem, actually the really great thing about the build is that it mostly does its magic due to class abilitiesand a weapon enhancment, and isn't terribly dependent on feats, I mean even without Combat Brute and Shock Troop its 2nd combat round damage is 490, which is nothing to spit on, and leaves LOTS of room for class prereq feats. And heres a question, does Great Cleave and Supreme Cleave work on AoO <shiver>? If so, then certainly Karmic Strike/Combat Reflexes etc. I did not build his stats to reflect a high Dex, but that could be done pretty easily on a high point buy or stat roll system. Actually, now that I look at it, the build without Combat Brute and Shock Troop at 18 will have that level of Berserk, giving it +8 Str and +8 Con, which is 6 more damage with a 2 handed weapon and 30 points more damage over 5 attacks... So, 520 a round. Again, not too shabby, and maintains a decent AC, calculated to 23 with Mithril Breastplate +4 and 18 modified Dex, with maybe some Deflection and Natural Armor if you arent going the Karmic Strike way.
mean_liar 02-15-04, 01:37 PM	Indeed Great Cleave and Supreme Cleave work on AoOs. Its moments like these that really make me appreciate these boards. Shine on, you lunatic Sadist Berzerker! Shine on!
toftof 02-18-04, 04:39 AM	Hey guys, Hannibal had a great idea in another post, adding one level of thayan knight so Red wizard can control that beast when there isn't anymore ennemies around.... we could compete in the tread about 2 person parties... now I am asking in your build CompleteSaori is there room for iron will and weapon focu(longsword) (a waste) seems a bit tough to achieve
mean_liar 02-18-04, 08:26 AM	The build works with ... Barbarian2/Fighter 3/Thayan Knight 2/Frenzied Berserker 2/Berzerk 1/Fighter +1/Thayan Knight +1/Frenzied Berzerker +8 Feats: 1st- Destructive Rage, Power Attack 3rd- Iron Will, Cleave* 4th- Wpn Focus (longsword)* 6th- Intimidating Rage 9th- Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave 11th- Dodge* 12th- Combat Expertise*, Karmic Strike 15th- Combat Brute 18th- ??? Smokin' Hot.
toftof 02-18-04, 09:20 AM	I like it a lot ! thanks Mean! i am know working on red wizard to work with this FB from hell
adiaven 02-18-04, 12:50 PM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori 1st Round: Drink Potion of True Strike, move to Charge distance. No such thing as a potion of True Strike. You can't make potions with a range of "personal" sorry
cowdragon 02-18-04, 01:41 PM	I had a sorcerer half-dragon who loved being in melee...usually not the smartest. But in my daily chain contingiency, I had sadism, masochism, and draconic might. When I ran up and hit something with a claw, I shredded it. Claw+Vampiric Touch+spend 7th spell to arcane strike+claw+Vampiric Touch+spend 7th level spell for arcane strike(I had two heads and multi-voice). Next round was even worse for the poor bugger I was hitting. So, the I dea of an amulet of sadism is genious, and I'm just upset I didn't think of it. Kudos!!! The Cowdragon :mage:
CompleteSatori 02-18-04, 01:47 PM	Originally posted by adiaven No such thing as a potion of True Strike. You can't make potions with a range of "personal" sorry <whistles> Holy S**t, is that a major rules grenade or what? Thats a big change from 3.0, True Strike used to be touch as well. <sigh> So its got to be a use activated or charged item of True Strike. Makes it a little more costly, but hey, a 5/day true strike something would not be so bad. Thanks Adiaven, I had NEVER noticed that change, since True Strike used to be on the list of prerolled potions. Originally posted by toftof Hey guys, Hannibal had a great idea in another post, adding one level of thayan knight so Red wizard can control that beast when there isn't anymore ennemies around.... we could compete in the tread about 2 person parties... now I am asking in your build CompleteSaori is there room for iron will and weapon focu(longsword) (a waste) seems a bit tough to achieve. In this build there isnt any need for Thayan Knight for making those Will saves, your base check after your first combat round is going to be at least +50, and the DC is only 20, so you do the math. Ah, I just noticed that you are talking about out of combat. Well again, if there are no beasties to attack, he wont be raging. Yes you may have to be concerned about random damage making him go bonkers, but he gets to make a free action Will save every round to get out of Frenzy, which you should most certainly have him do the round he destroys the last bad guy. So there we go, still under the effects of Sadism/Rage/Frenzy/Berserk, he makes his Will save the moment he drops the last baddy, and <poof>, succeeds with a +50-70 modifier.
Voivode 02-18-04, 02:45 PM	Can I suggest using one of your spare levels for the Feral template from SS? It will give you Fast Healing 5, in case the Wrathful Healing weapon is somehow not keeping you alive enough, and most amusingly, will give you the Pounce ability. Full attack on a charge, anyone?
CompleteSatori 02-18-04, 03:06 PM	I actually intentionally avoided that Feral template, Ive used it so often in builds that I tire of it. Plus I like this guy as one of the few non Feral combat builds on this board. He still does decent damage... Wait, I am oversimplifying... He does more damage than the Hulking Hurler build, since that guy is limited to the 20d6+Str+Magic limit to weight/falling damage. Regardless of where that Hulking Hurler goes, this guy can kill anything it can, and live longer. I vote no to the Feral template. EDIT: I dont know if I mentioned it, but with Deathless Frenzy and the Wrathful Healing weapon, this guy is actually unkillable for about 2 minutes of combat, and probably has full health afterwards, no matter what you toss at him. And I cant think of anything that can kill him once hes in Rage/Frenzy/Berserk/Wrathful Healing/Sadism mode.
nihility 02-18-04, 04:37 PM	I agree with Satori on the Feral issue. At the rate this guy is getting life back, 5 hp/round isn't going to even be noticed. That said, it might be useful if you are starting from level 2 and know your party is going to be short on healing. Overall, I'd leave additional healing to the cleric and focus on the wrathful healing beatdown.
Boondoggle 02-18-04, 04:52 PM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori And I cant think of anything that can kill him once hes in Rage/Frenzy/Berserk/Wrathful Healing/Sadism mode. Dispell Magic, Calm Emotions, sunder.
Hanniball 02-18-04, 06:34 PM	And I cant think of anything that can kill him once hes in Rage/Frenzy/Berserk/Wrathful Healing/Sadism mode. not to nitpick, but what about a flying opponent? i don't see a way for your build to deal with that at all. i'm just trying to enhance the build by presenting something that it can't deal with, not trying to rip it down. it's pretty frickin' good. either way...just my 0.02 cp
CompleteSatori 02-19-04, 12:10 AM	I am just presenting a base build, I only bought a weapon for him, and put forth an idea for armor, other than that, you have several hundred thousand gold peices to buy him whatever you need. Note, in my game he would have wings of flying, or a cape, or something, and his Sadism item I had already put forth at 20th caster level, so even a 20th level dispel only affects him on a natural 20, or greater dispel 50% of the time. I make the assumption that this guy is part of a party, if hes a solo npc BBEG, then he kills the caster FIRST, as always. Now, without that Dispel working, he cant be Calmed, because he cant miss a DC 12+modifier save with Sadism in effect, and his weapon cant be sundered, because noone can hit his weapon, Sadism makes that impossible, as long as he continues to pump out damage. If he is part of a party, then he would assume the party mage/monk/whatever would be preventing the other wizards/clerics from figuring out where all of the buffs are coming from (item of Sadism) and/or whacks that silly caster, and/or target dispels any dispels coming from said caster. As a party death machine, hes pretty well covered.
horndgod 02-19-04, 12:34 AM	No potion of True Strike? Use an unfettered candle of True Strike. Would also work if dipped or striped with Sadism.
mean_liar 02-19-04, 12:56 AM	This is clearly an "ultimate melee build". Anything effective that can conceivably done to it can be done to any melee character. This character's main weakness is trickery, in that if he's among friends and is attacked by a villian with Hide in Plain Sight and scads of Hide/Move Silently/Forestfold, there's a chance his Frenzy would trigger and he would start rampaging against the only targets in sight, his friends. Variations of this include clever and especially sneaky rangers placing caltrops in his path routinely as he travels, attacks from great heights by wizards using Enlarge spells while hiding in cloud cover, and basically any other attack from an unseen source. But even then, you're not taking out the madman, you're only redirecting him. As far as non-cheesy ways to take this character out in any sort of battle that's already in progress, I just don't see it. If this guy isn't eliminated in round 1 or early in 2, you pretty much should get out of there via teleport and hope that he kills his allies.
CompleteSatori 02-19-04, 02:30 AM	Originally posted by mean_liar This is clearly an "ultimate melee build". Anything effective that can conceivably done to it can be done to any melee character. If this guy isn't eliminated in round 1 or early in 2, you pretty much should get out of there via teleport and hope that he kills his allies. Liars right on, in fact that caltrop thing almost made me fall out of my chair when I visualized it... But fat chance of him attacking his friends, assuming he isnt Evil and doesnt care about it. Will save is way too high, and he makes it as a free action. Another thought, how about one more 'must have' item?? Boots of Lions Charge. Use Activated, 1st level spell/20th level caster, 40,000 gold. You could make it cheaper, but really need the high end caster level to avoid getting dispelled. So now he makes a full attack action at the end of his charge, making his first round totally viable, instead of waiting for the 2nd. A question, since he takes a full attack on a charge, does that mean the charge bonus applies on ALL his attacks? And if it does, does that mean Valorous Charge applies to ALL his attacks that round? Just a thought... I will do the silly math once that question is answered.
Boondoggle 02-19-04, 06:48 AM	You are aware that you will spend the first/surprise round activating your item of sadism, correct? Even as a use activated item, you need to spend a standard action activating it. I still think this is a great exploitation of the sadism spell, but that just further entrentches my dislike for the book.
CompleteSatori 02-19-04, 01:44 PM	Actually, he will spend a standard action at the beginning of his day every day. Its Use Activated, meaning always on. So no wasted rounds. The True Strike item needs activation, but again, so would a potion require a standard action, before I realized that you cant have a potion of True Strike in 3.5. EDIT: And IMO this is not an exploitation of Sadism, its the intended use of the spell, exactly as worded, and there is even an item IN the BoVD that is a Use Activated Sadism/Masochism item, which would make this guy rock even harder. But theres no need for it.
Riznar 02-19-04, 04:22 PM	Originally posted by adiaven No such thing as a potion of True Strike. You can't make potions with a range of "personal" sorry Wha? Where does it say that? I've never seen that rule...
Ranger-99 02-19-04, 04:35 PM	Originally posted by Riznar Wha? Where does it say that? I've never seen that rule... According to the SRD: CREATING POTIONS ... The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions. Note the emphasis.
Stoned Golem 02-19-04, 05:15 PM	Which I think is fantastically dumb because the SRD says "The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect."
Hanniball 02-19-04, 07:50 PM	As far as non-cheesy ways to take this character out in any sort of battle that's already in progress, I just don't see it. HiPS, invisibility, flight, trip the beast and keep him down with AoOs, displacement, enervation, ray of enfeeblement, spirited charging paladin/cleric, 1st or 2nd turn hold person...etc. if you need more, ask...
nihility 02-19-04, 08:18 PM	HiPS, invisibility, flight, trip the beast and keep him down with AoOs, displacement, enervation, ray of enfeeblement, spirited charging paladin/cleric, 1st or 2nd turn hold person...etc. Good for you. Here's a :cookie: We have established that this guy can be killed. That's not news. The point is that this build has no special weakness relative to other melee fighters, is highly resistant to a number of tactics that usually stop melee fighters, and is highly resiliant overall. So he can die. The point is that you have to try. Oh, some other things: you cannot prevent someone from standing by using your AoO to trip, if that's what you meant. The charging Paladin isn't going to work very well, either, since this guy doesn't drop at negative hitpoints. You could use hit-and-run, of course, but then you're not the melee fighter's problem anymore and you give the cleric time to heal him. You also give him time to beat up your help and get HP back that way.
Hanniball 02-19-04, 08:53 PM	such hostility nihility! i was merely assisting mean_liar in generating a few options as he stated that he was unaware of any... So he can die. The point is that you have to try. of course he can die and of course you have to try. no build can be defeated without a small amount of effort (i.e. swinging a sword, casting a spell, throwing a rock...) You could use hit-and-run, of course, but then you're not the melee fighter's problem anymore and you give the cleric time to heal him. You also give him time to beat up your help and get HP back that way. frenzy only lasts so long and a dead cleric can't heal... it's not that big of a deal, i just don't see this as an "ultimate melee build." as i already stated, it's flippin' sweet, but not ultimate, IMO. kudos to C.S.
Boondoggle 02-20-04, 08:07 AM	From what you've said, it's a continuous item at caster level 20. The cost would then be 2 (spell level) * 20 (caster level) * 2000 gp * 4 (duration in rounds) = 320,000 gp. The original pricing for the item you gave was 2 * 3 (minimum caster level) * 2000 gp * 4 = 48,000 gp. This item is easily dispelled, by anyone thus making the character extremely vulnerable. If you wanted the item at caster level 20, a 1/day use activated item of sadism would cost 64,000 gp. I think you need to get your argument straight :angel: This guy is either using an epic item, or is easily dispelled.
mean_liar 02-20-04, 08:25 AM	For the record, I put "ultimate melee build" in quotes because its clearly a 1st-tier build, not because it was undefeatable. There is no truly ultimate build, but I think you can say with some confidence that this thing is a melee terror of the 1st degree. And I wouldn't go so far as to say that a targetted non-area Dispel that suppresses his Sadism item for d4 rounds makes this guy a chump. Thats a heck of a waste of resources in my mind (suppressing for d4 rounds vs Sudden Maximized Scorching Ray against the Cleric), not to mention that because it has to be targetted I believe that Spellblade Armor Spikes should cancel it anyway.
Boondoggle 02-20-04, 09:18 AM	That's what the BBEG's lackey is for. Remember, cars screetch when they come to a sudden stop, all problems can be solved in 22 minutes, and all BBEGs have a devoted and loyal lackey. I never did doubt the power of this combination of frenzied berserker and sadism, I just think it's important to point out that there is one very major weakness and that CS needs to figgure out exactly which item of sadism he's using.
toftof 02-20-04, 11:09 AM	i got a funny idea for the companions of the frenzied berzerker, having a necromancer around to animate the guys he killed with animate dead , so the berzerker keep hitting the ennemies instead of turning against the party :)
CompleteSatori 02-20-04, 01:58 PM	Shoot Boondoggle, didnt even see that math mistake. Thanks for that, and aside from his dispel weakness, which is 4 rounds max, but does have the effect of 'stopping the madness' for a few moments... I think its about as well covered as any build could be. I do not, however, think that the lack of high caster level on a Use Activated item is a 'major' weakness, this guy can't die for about 2 minutes or so, and there had better be some really great preparation on that dispel/calm emotions multiple caster combo tactic. Someone's been talking to their gods about the upcoming combat with 9th level divinations, cause short of that, who EVER prepares Calm Emotions? lol. Again, thanks Boon, always good to have someone correcting design mistakes before they become in-game rules grenades. EDIT: Toftof, funny idea! I know I have lots of ideas in creating a fully developed 20th level version of this build, with full gear list, skills, and whatnot. If I get the time in the middle of building my gestalt npc's, I will.
nihility 02-20-04, 02:17 PM	such hostility nihility! i was merely assisting mean_liar in generating a few options as he stated that he was unaware of any... Sorry, but I really thought you needed a cookie. Don't you like cookies? I know I do. I think I'll go eat one right now...
adiaven 02-20-04, 03:07 PM	Complete Satori, I think word would get around if there was a barbarian who could slay young dragon in a single charge, defeat a tarrasque, and sometimes even fight on after death has come to him. Warriors like this one are legendary, and it wouldn't take too powerful of a divination to know what to expect.
mean_liar 02-20-04, 04:13 PM	Goodness knows those LG Loremasters and Divine Oracles are going to keep tabs on this guy. "O Heavens, when will yon Atomic Bomb that walks as Man come to despoil our fair kingdom?" Thats assuming you leave any survivors to tell your tale. :devil:
toftof 02-20-04, 04:27 PM	regarding the dispel magic issue, the berzerker can have an armor with some spikes enchanted with the spellblade enchantment storing a dispel magic , and also wear some spiked gauntlets with the spellblade enchantment greater dispel (also useful if somehow his weapon is destroyed , taken away or whatever)
KashGarinn 02-20-04, 05:57 PM	two things which bother me.. where is wrathful healing, and how are you gettin 4 damage for each -1 to attack? I'm reading MotW and only seeing 2 damage for each -1.. K.
nihility 02-20-04, 06:04 PM	The new CW Frenzied Berserker gets 4 for 1 Power Attack with 2-handed weapons, since 2 for 1 with 2-handed weapons is now standard. Wrathful Healing is from Enemies and Allies page 20, I believe.
toftof 02-20-04, 06:17 PM	was going to answer that but your were faster nihility :) , yep page 20 of E&A
KashGarinn 02-20-04, 08:54 PM	thanks man, found it.. what a cool combo :D but I'm not finding furious... where is it? K.
CompleteSatori 02-22-04, 08:05 PM	Furious is in OACS, under new magic weapon enchantments... let me get a page number for ya. Page 125. Also, you could enchant the thing with Raging, the one that makes it act like a weapon with +2 enhancement MORE to hit and damage when the weilder is raging. I didnt even bother.
adiaven 02-22-04, 08:58 PM	an old DM of mine made a house rule that if you did more than 200 points of damage in 1 round, the god of war (depending on the setting) would come down and challange you in avatar form. the scary part is this build might have a chance against that deity.
CompleteSatori 02-22-04, 10:44 PM	Well that depends, in your campaign, is the god of war a major deity, lesser deity or a greater deity? Cause thats what matters when fighting god avatars. I mean, do they always roll 20's? Thats what the avatars of Greater Deity's do, so there its all about a hit point war, and does he just go head to head? Cause the avatar of a god probably has Epic items, and when he creates a being to fight a Frenzied Berserk, he probably makes that avatar an FB as well. Inwhich case its all about the Constitution score, I mean, who comes out of Deathless Frenzy first. Cause they heal most damage, cant fail the saves on Save or Die spells... So who has the higher Con modifier. And thats who wins. This means the gods avatar will win, though his ass will be at -10k hit points if he doesnt have Wrathful Healing on his weapon, which he will, cause hes a god.
Effling 02-24-04, 04:11 PM	OACS? What sourcebook is that? Oriental Adventures Cdoesn't Smakesense?
Voivode 02-24-04, 04:14 PM	Oriental Adventures Campaign Setting, presumably.
Golem1972 02-24-04, 05:29 PM	So, when are we going to see your gestalt FB build? A double class, and a triple class build would be great. I've been trying to come up with one myself, but it's kinda hard to top what you've already done (it's kinda like getting creme brule' and adding canned pie filling on top). So far, I've been working on: FB//rage mage, FB//psywarrior, and FB//Shifter (imagine a frenzied dragon). Rage mage was more for between combat support, as it's next to impossible to match the damage dealing potential. Psywarrior gives some added versatility and a bunch of extra feats so you can follow some of the fighter feat trees. Shifter isn't so great, as wildshaping leads to weaker forms for the most part, but helps out between combats. I think I am missing the really good obvious combos here. On a slightly seperate note, UA has brought up a couple of other neat options. ECL buy down will allow low LA builds to work better. Item familiars will help out by having your favorite weapon get better with your character. Bloodlines might be a good investment as well.
CompleteSatori 02-24-04, 10:03 PM	I actually had a great idea, Golem. I will get right on character design tonight, and be done by early morning hopefully.
horndgod 02-25-04, 12:25 AM	I think I must have missed why this doesn't happen, but, doesn't the FB eventually go unconscious? Granted, with Deathless Frenzy it can keep going even with -10 or lower hp, but the ability says nothing about nonlethal damage. Since nonlethal damage rises until it meets your current hp instead of contributing to your hp dropping, the FB has no defense against it. If this is true, ( and again, I think I must have missed something), then nonlethal damage is the best way to take out an FB. In fact, there is no way for the FB to ever use the Deathless Frenzy for more than a round, because the moment the round ends and the FB takes 2 nonlethal damage, its nonlethal damage will exceed the FBs current hp, rendering it unconscious.
BotD 02-25-04, 01:52 AM	Originally posted by horndgod I think I must have missed why this doesn't happen, but, doesn't the FB eventually go unconscious? Granted, with Deathless Frenzy it can keep going even with -10 or lower hp, but the ability says nothing about nonlethal damage. Since nonlethal damage rises until it meets your current hp instead of contributing to your hp dropping, the FB has no defense against it. If this is true, ( and again, I think I must have missed something), then nonlethal damage is the best way to take out an FB. In fact, there is no way for the FB to ever use the Deathless Frenzy for more than a round, because the moment the round ends and the FB takes 2 nonlethal damage, its nonlethal damage will exceed the FBs current hp, rendering it unconscious. But with Sadism you will almost always be at full hp.
CompleteSatori 02-25-04, 03:05 AM	Originally posted by BotD But with Sadism you will almost always be at full hp. Actually, with Wrathful Healing you will almost always be at full, and more importantly, horndgod, Frenzied Berserks only accrue 2 points of subdual damage a round, which is peanuts on a raging creature that has over 300 hit points. By the by, if you havent seen it, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=188924) is the new gestalt FB build.
Nythrun 03-24-04, 02:39 AM	but...isn't the Berserker Class's Battle Fury a Standard Action to activate, and isn't it impossible to end early? (by "impossible" I mean by your own voilition and a Will save, not Calm Emotions, etc...) I mention this only because without a Furious weapon, losing 1 BAB for Berserker is already a net loss in damage, and having that enchantment only allows you to break even. Sure, the final attack bonus is slightly higher; nevertheless, taking Shock Trooper lets you dump the BAB loss into AC anyway - and +60 is plenty. Losing an action is too much even for +8 strength, I think. The CON loss would hurt more if you didn't already have Deathless Frenzy, but you do, and Extended Rage is the last feat I would want to take with a Frenzied Berserker ;) so I don't miss the extended duration so much. Nasty build anyway.
Voivode 03-24-04, 06:25 AM	Sorry if this is a stupid question, but where is the weapon ability that enhances rages to be found? It has been referred to as both "furious" and "frenzied," but I can't find it under either of those names.
KashGarinn 03-24-04, 07:05 AM	IIRC it's in a forgotten realms book, magic of faerun or some such. K.
Tha Sage 03-24-04, 07:37 AM	I feel this is a stupid question, but can you Rage and Frenzy at the same time? Do all of the bonuses and penalties stack? If so, I need to calculate some more damage for my build.:smirk:
CompleteSatori 03-24-04, 01:33 PM	Nythrun- Yes, standard action, Yes- No voluntary ending of the Battle Fury, but both of those are justifiable. I, as a Frenzied Berserker, would be Raging/Berserk until it became neccessary to be pushing out the super damage. And since I built that character with the ability to make will saves very efficiently, no worries about attacking friends. But when you need it, +3att/damage/hit points is very worth the standard action on an FB build. Thats 3 more points of Power Attack = 3:12, scaling his damage very nicely. Voivode- Furious is an enhancement bonus of +1 found on page 125 of the Oriental Adventures Campaign Handbook that grants your Rage/Frenzy/Ki Frenzy/Battle Fury a one step jump in power (thus your +4/+4 Rage becomes +6/+6, etc). Berzerker is in the Races of Faerun on page 171, it makes the enchantment bonus on your weapon jump by +2 when you are Rage/Frenzy/Battle Fury/Ki Frenzy etc (Also a +1 enhancement). The Sage- Yes, they all stack, its pretty specific about that.
Voivode 03-24-04, 01:41 PM	Thanks for the replies - if I'd being paying attention, I would have noticed that the page reference is at the top of this page! Only one thing - it appears to be a +2 enhancement, rather than a +1.
Norad 03-24-04, 05:24 PM	First off, let me say that is a damned nice build, especially with the Sadism/Masochism angle, but not the best FB I've seen. Shock Trooper allows you to sacrifice AC instead of BAB for Power Attack, I think that is key. You're AC is really meaningless anyways, any opponent worthy of actually fighting you is going to tag you with every swing. Secondly, the Greatsword is nice, but the Falchion is better, getting the 15-20 crit range with the massive damage bonuses you get from PA, Rage, Frenzy pays off big time. Besides, with the damage bonuses the difference between 2d6 and 2d4 is meaningless, but the difference between a 17-20 crit range and a 15-20 crit range is not. Without Sadism, I had a player without the above variation (he was using a Bastard Sword instead of a Falchion) crank out 743 points of damage in one round, against a monster with 53 AC and DR 25 epic/chaotic, so in reality he did 868 without Sadism (they were a good-aligned party). It got really bad when their cleric started throwing Persistent buffs on him, Savage Species has a spell that will let you grow multiple arms, combine this with another one in SS that lets you fuse the arms together for additional non-specified strength bonuses (he was somewhere in the region of 70 Str sometimes). Then he was throwing Persistent Monstrous Regeneration (all damage is subdual except Fire and Acid), Energy Immunity (Acid, player already had Fire immunity), and Favor of Ilmater (immune to subdual damage) and he was extremely difficult to kill without an MDJ to open things up. Bottom line, I had to nerf Power Attack to bring things back down to a realistic level. I think our group finally settled on a max of 1/2 BAB for PA, it was either that or I was gonna have to give any vaguely important melee NPCs Elusive Target, which allows you to ignore PA damage from one opponent. PA, esp with the FB gets REALLY out of hand when you get to epic levels also, we extrapolated that by 35th level he was going to be dealing upwards for 4k damage per round of combat without buffs. Thanks to Tha Sage for finding the feat names I was looking for, post edited appropriately.
Tha Sage 03-24-04, 06:30 PM	Originally posted by Norad First off, let me say that is a damned nice build, especially with the Sadism/Masochism angle, but not the best FB I've seen. There is a feat in CW that allows you to sacrifice AC instead of BAB for Power Attack, I think that is key .. any vaguely important melee NPCs the feat from CW that allows you to ignore PA damage from one opponent Shock Trooper and Elusive Target tactical feats, for those who dont want to comb through their books.
CompleteSatori 03-24-04, 11:42 PM	In response to all of that above <points>, that was not an optimized build, merely and exploration of an item combined with the FB 1:4PA. I went ahead and made a different one but never posted it, mostly out of lack of patience. I also have experimented with the Monstrous Regen/Favor of Ilmater combination, right after Magic of Faerun, and though it was done on a paladin in our group, it was so egregious that noone could forget it, thus I couldnt use it as a DM, everyone would call me on my b.s.! :rolleyes: If you follow the buildnotes, I even mention that I wasn't going to even seriously consider Shock Trooper, though I did the math for it, since I felt enough was enough. I guess I wanted to avoid this thread becoming another Hulking Hurler thread. Waaaayy out of control. :)
horndgod 03-25-04, 01:43 AM	I maintain that one of the best ways to take out this creature is nonlethal damage. An 18th level wizard with Subdual Substituition, Greater Metamagic rods of Quicken and Maximize, and a Contingency: (Dimension Door away when attacked) will torque the Sadist FB with little trouble. Granted, this would take care of any melee type, but it remains a weakness of the FB. Besides, I can picture a fairly competent wizard17/archmage1 with mastery of elements and subdual substituition walking around with all of his spells subdualed, since he can use mastery of elements to spontaneously change the damage type.
CompleteSatori 03-25-04, 12:20 PM	I must be missing something here Horndgod. For all intents and purposes, until they meet in the middle, subdual and normal damage are the same, subdual just heals faster. I know your line of thought here, make him go unconscious, since unconscious is not dead, thus Deathless Frenzy doesn't apply. Unfortunately Deathless Frenzy says pretty specifically that the FB scorns both death and unconsciousness. Totally aside from that, I built that guy to not even use Deathless Frenzy, its mostly a backup... When he is in melee, his Wrathful Healing weapon will be more than keeping him up without worries about either normal or subdual damage, and taking into account his insane saves while that Sadism item is in effect, you arent really going to be pushing out alot of your big subdual damagers (even several subdual Scorching Rays is only 9-12d6, easily healed with one single hit from his second round of attacks on). Coupled with Armor Spikes of Spellblade/Dispel, and his sword having Spellblade/Greater Dispel, he has no worries about targeted dispels.
ShadowDreamer 03-25-04, 02:17 PM	I only skimmed the last few posts, but someone may have already mentioned this... I noticed Garillion's blessing was brought up to get extra arms, and i just think i should remind people, there is a certain point where your str mod is high enough that you gain more damage by actually wielding the weapon in the extra arms (you get an extra .5 str bonus per arm after the first)... of course, now that i think about that, it might not work the same since you can power attack 4 to 1 so each 2 str bonus points you get is like +5 damage or something. but in general, and deffinitly if you dont have PA, there is a point where it is better to use all the arms than to fuse them. i jst bring this up once becuase i was looking at this and i had a Huge guy with like +30 from str, so he could fuse and get to like +38, or he could just wield in 8 arms and get +30*4.5, which was way more overall. I am too busy now to see how PA effects it, but i think it might make fusing better....
CompleteSatori 03-25-04, 03:31 PM	Savage Species pg67. The additional arms do not allow additional attacks or several simultaneous attacks, nor do they increase reach/ You don't get any extra attacks, the arms can be used to use equipment designed for multiple armed creatures, or to hold additional equipment (greatsword user with a large shield). Best to Fuse them and get a bonus to your Strength.
horndgod 03-25-04, 03:59 PM	No, you understand me CompleteSatori, knocking the FB unconscious via non-lethal damage is what I am suggesting. Unfortunately, Deathless Frenzy, despite its flavor text, does not protect the FB from being knocked out. The additional fact that his frenzy causes him to take non-lethal damage every round makes me take his scorning of unconsciousness with a little salt (as effectively miniscule as that non-lethal damage may be.) I suppose my basic idea for defeating the FB would be to not engage him in melee. However, apart from waiting for his frenzy to run out, which doesn't really count as beating him IMO, you need some way to do enough non-lethal damage to drop him. Range weapons are often incapable of doing non-lethal damage, or, at least, enough non-lethal damage while staying out of melee range of the FB. Spells are the other option. I was actually specifically contemplating Subdual Substituition in conjunction with a Meteor Swarm. Meteor Swarm does not allow a saving throw if used as a range touch attack. In fact, the range touch attack becomes even easier if the FB is using some AC reducing effects to boost his attack bonus and damage. Greater Metamagic rods of Quicken and Maximize allow you to get off, on average, in one round, 288 points of non-lethal damage. The Contingency is there so if the FB actually manages to close you DD farther than the FB can run in a couple rounds. This will allow you do get far enough away to hit the FB for at least one more round of massive non-lethal damage. Don't get me wrong, I think the Sadist FB is an inspired build. I'm just saying this is a fairly simple way to take him out. Actually, the wizard in question would do worse if he did have allies, as they would provide fodder for the FB and his Wrathful Healing.
CompleteSatori 03-25-04, 04:35 PM	Originally posted by horndgod No, you understand me CompleteSatori, knocking the FB unconscious via non-lethal damage is what I am suggesting. Unfortunately, Deathless Frenzy, despite its flavor text, does not protect the FB from being knocked out. Actually, the wizard in question would do worse if he did have allies, as they would provide fodder for the FB and his Wrathful Healing. I disagree concerning the subdual damage angle, Hornd... I think its a pretty convincing argument that if you ignore the effects of anything but death effects and massive damage, then simply being knocked unconscious by nonlethal damage is a silly thing. Put that into game context, outside of your nonlethal substitution Meteor Swarm, most nonlethal damage comes from physical attacks. So you are saying that while this creature can take blows from a Storm Giant until his range ends, no matter how tenuously his limbs are attached to his body, that same Storm Giant would successfully put him down by doing 'nonlethal' damage with the same Greatclub? In game mechanics it almost barely makes sense, and outside of metagame, it makes very little IMO. I think the flavor text, as it is the only descriptive text in this case (we are not comparing a table to text here), says that he ignores the effects of death and unconsciousness while in a Frenzy. However, this character is not made to solo a mage, without any fodder to smash (Sadism) and Wrathful Heal, any flying anything would just move around alot til he was either out of Frenzy, or if he didnt Frenzy in the first place, just do what you would to take down any other low Will save fighter. Hold Person/Dominate/Charm, whatever. This build relies on being one of a party of characters, to back up his strong out of Frenzy weakness' and allow the spellcasters in his own group to do most of the real damage, since nothing on the battlefield isn't either running towards or away from the frothing splattermachine behemoth churning towards them.
horndgod 03-25-04, 05:25 PM	I have to disagree Satori. The Deathless Frenzy text is carried almost verbatim from the MotW FB, which also mentions his scorn for death and unconsciousness. As far as I know, scorning is not a game mechanic. I can choose to scorn magic all I want, that doesn't make me immune to magic. I grant that it's probably an oversight and the mechanics should probably be altered, but as it stands, you can knock out the FB. Deep Slumber, which is essentially Greater Sleep will function on an FB. For that matter, Disintegrate presents a problem to the FB similar to a creature with regeneration. It's not clear what happens anymore.
CompleteSatori 03-25-04, 05:40 PM	Well the text still does say pretty much that save or die spells still mean save or die, I dont think that changes, but again, this character, while in melee combat, doesnt have to worry about any spell that requires a save, as the Sadism bonuses takes care of all of his saves to the extent that anything short of very very epic will not affect him. I can see your point, Hornd, just wouldnt run it that way IMC as it seems counterintuitive. Which doesnt mean its not correct, just that since its not totally covered by the short rule, I would rule against it.
Norad 03-25-04, 05:43 PM	Originally posted by horndgod I have to disagree Satori. The Deathless Frenzy text is carried almost verbatim from the MotW FB, which also mentions his scorn for death and unconsciousness. Per the letter it may be correct, but I think it is definitely contrary to the spirit or intention of the ability. Certainly the logic of it is questionable to say the least, if the guy can't get hacked down by a sword I doubt a well-placed haymaker is going to slow him down. Originally posted by horndgod Deep Slumber, which is essentially Greater Sleep will function on an FB. For that matter, Disintegrate presents a problem to the FB similar to a creature with regeneration. It's not clear what happens anymore. Deep Slumber-Coup De Grace is definitely a way to go here, and probably the quickest, most straight forward way for dealing with such a character. The FB in my campaign had a Cowl of Warding towards the end of the campaign though so I didn't have this option without MDJ first, the melee characters in my game worked hard on finding immunity items. Since Disintegrate no longer provides an instant death solution if the FB fails his save this might be a bit trickier. If he is already negative hps I guess you could argue that even if he made his save that he would still die. I don't have the books in front of me so I couldn't really debate effectively on that point though. In MoF there is an armor enhancement that makes you immune to Disintegrate, Polymorph and Petrification (+6 enhancement bonus, ouch!), but definitely worth it on something like a Buckler(Buckler +1, Haste, Proof Against Transmutation - +10) and worth the -1 penalty to hit while using a 2h weapon, not to mention balanced by the Haste effect.
AviLazar 03-25-04, 10:34 PM	Where is feral?
CompleteSatori 03-26-04, 12:04 AM	Savage Species page 115 I believe. As far as save or die spells, as long as this last build has things to hit, he will save. Deep slumber, same thing. I have a non Sadism FB build for a gestalt game that will also laugh away the saves with his Champion of Gwhennyfar levels... Also, this last build with Warshaper would not care about Coup de Grace either, has he is immune to critical hits and stunning, so your damage would be some pitiful amount that his save of 19+stats&bonuses would make pretty easily. The strength of CdG is the automatic critical, otherwise the damage can be very low and the Fort save as well.
AviLazar 03-26-04, 08:22 PM	I know you guys are not keen on adding classes from other companies, but what do you think of adding levels of the Brute in there. THis class specializes in breaking things Maybe Barb 2/Fighter2/Frenzied10/Brute6? edit: Also why not have a ring of shock shield? (or the equivlent of). If someone hits you, they take damage. Makes them not want to hit you -A
ShadowDreamer 03-26-04, 09:24 PM	I am not saying to use it get more attacks per round, i am using the rules for wielding a weapon in multiple hands. I asked this question on the SS boards like when this first game out, and the writer (name escapes me) said you could use this clause to wield weapons designed for multiple arms and get the str bonus for wielding in multiple arms IE use the extra arms to say, wield your weapon in 8 hands, you get your str bonus x4.5 to weapon damage
CompleteSatori 03-26-04, 09:31 PM	By "weilding weapons designed for multiple arms" the book does not mean Weilding weapons designed for multiple hands, it refers directly to some of the weapons in the Savage Species books that require 4 or more arms to use. You can't fit 4 hands on a 2 handed weapon, or it would be called a 4 handed weapon.
ShadowDreamer 03-26-04, 09:47 PM	you can have weapons specialy crafted to be designed to be held in more then 2 hands (i think this may have been mentioned in SS, but i made a char based around this at the time, and i know the author mentioned that this was an okay use, he also suggeste a limit for the number of hands on a weapon based on the weapons size, which i htink he may have made up, but i think the part about designing weapons for multiple hands is in SS) edit: check the example under the heading "three or more hands" on page 42 of SS, talks about a girillion wielding a great club in all 4 hands getting 2.5 str bonus. I am sure that if you make a great club for a 4 handed guy, a sword for a 4 handed guy could be made ;) I also find it funny the example and the spell are related so closely ;) true, you would need the weapon especially made, but if you had a reliable source of the spell, it wouldn't be too risky to make it your main weapon, you can stil lcarry a backup 2 handed weapon aswell ;) if you want to argue the "multiple hands" vs "multiple arms" thing you can, but to me since if you are using those extra arms, chances are they have hands (IE extra ahnds), and chances are if you have extra hands you would have extra arms too (since it would be wierd to have hands with no arms). but you can design weapons specificly for a wierd number of hands, and i would count that the same as arms, but i mean that can be ruled however since i dont think either condtion is defined anywhere in any book since it doesnt really come up
bitnine 03-26-04, 11:22 PM	If you're very worried about someone sniping your FB and having him go nuts on the party, consider the following: Keep your primary weapon in a glove of storing. Wear +1 merciful spiked gauntlets. If you want to frenzy (you know enemies are about), you can get your weapon as a free action. If you go into frenzy not of your choice, you can't activate magic items (not to get your weapon, not to deactivate the merciful enchantment) and pummel your friends to unconsiousness instead of death.
quester 04-30-04, 05:16 PM	Question. What is 'spellblade enchantment greater dispel' what exactly does it do and where is it found?
CompleteSatori 04-30-04, 07:12 PM	Spellblade is an enchantment that was originally in the Magic of Faerun, but has been erratad and put in the new Players Guide to Faerun. If a specific spell (chosen at the time of the enchanting) is targeted at you, it is automatically absorbed, and on the next round (your next round) you can choose to either cast it back as a free action, or release it. So, Spellblade (Greater Dispel), or Spellblade (Disentigrate) would be two seperate enchantments. Best part is that it is a straight 6000gp price, so it takes up no +1 slots on your weapon. Oh ya, can only be put on a weapon.
Funny Slaughter 04-30-04, 08:54 PM	Oh ya, can only be put on a weapon. armor spikes. nuff said :) gs Funny
Daffydd ap Hywell 05-02-04, 01:19 AM	Small question on your x4 power attack. In 3.5, a two-handed power attack gives x2 damage. The FB gave x2 power attack at 10th level in 3.0. Wouldn't those together become x3? Two doublings and all... (if it is x4, those poor pc's won't know what hit them when the FB Feral Minotaur of Legend gets a hold of them...)
CompleteSatori 05-02-04, 11:18 AM	Umm, there is a 3.5 version of the FB. Its the updated version, as the 3.0 version doesn't work well with 3.5, and it gets (incrementally) 3x and then 4x PA with a two handed weapon, or 1.5x and then 2x with a one handed weapon.
Daffydd ap Hywell 05-03-04, 12:43 AM	Concerning the x4 for the two-handed supreme power attack, I just found the updated FB in my copy of CW. Icky. Feral Minotaur of Legend goes *Swing*... PC goes *spat* (IIRC: while frenzied, it has an attack bonus of 38 while using 20 points for power attack... 80(attack)+42(str)+5(weapon)+6d8=OW!!!!! )
Sang-Drax 05-03-04, 08:33 AM	That's why I simply does not allow Frenzied Berserkers in my campaigns... it's a really cool PrC, and I just hate to forbbid anything, but man... it's a really, *REALLY* damn powerfull class... unless, as someone has stated, every monster takes Elusive Target feat :D
CompleteSatori 05-03-04, 10:44 AM	So in your campaign there every NPC caster must have rings of wish so that all of those "*REALLY* damn powerfull " Incantatrix' can't mess with your game, or did you just ban them? For that matter, I guess there aren't any Ur-Priests, Mystic Theurges, or many other PrCs, since most of them are "*REALLY* damn powerfull." Thats too bad, since even the much vaunted Frenzied Berserk has quite a few weakness', and is pretty balanced as a PrC.
siswick 05-03-04, 11:35 AM	To me the thing that balances the FB out is the negative side of frenzy. A DC 20 Will Save is tough to make until later levels(even then a 1 still screws ya). Also anything setting them off to go into frenzy seems pretty bad. I mean an arrow or a trap could easily set them off. Now of course once you can make the DC 20 check rather easy(fail on maybe a 5 or lower), then the FB is a wrecking machine.
Sang-Drax 05-03-04, 01:34 PM	Originally posted by siswick Now of course once you can make the DC 20 check rather easy(fail on maybe a 5 or lower), then the FB is a wrecking machine. That's the problem. I knew someone would say something about incantatrixes or ur-priest. The problem is if you compare the fb with other melee classes. I don't see any fun when you're a fighter that does like 120 dmg in one round and the FB does 800. Why bother fighting? Let the crazy berserker do it by himself. And, if you are so much worried about rolling a 1 to get free of the frenzy, get a cleric level with Luck domain and roll again. Besides getting +2 on Will saves (it can be further increased with other stuff like Holy Liberator). Incantatrixes can get really powerful, specially if there's enough money in the campaign to easily craft rings of spellcraft - eventually, they will get the money to do it. But they are not so much more powerful than other wizard PrCs as FB is compared to other melee warriors.
CompleteSatori 05-03-04, 02:44 PM	I don't know thats neccesarily true, (about the Incantatrix) you pay for the power with specialization, yet you (even without ANY spellcraft items) can destroy any mages chances of opposing your party, as well as positively affect buff spells cast by members of your own party, and all these are easy to accomplish without any Spellcraft items. (18Int + SKillfocus + maxranks@20 + +6 item +Synergy from Knowledge Arcana = 35 Spellcraft.) As far as the FB is concerned, if you take all 10 levels of FB, and you have to take at least 6 levels of +1 base attack classes just to get TO the pre-reqs for FB (thats Ranger or Fighter), then your Will save is going to be junk. 16 levels of Will non favored looks alot like this : Fort-14 Ref-4 Will-4 (Fighter4/Barbarian2/FB10) Thats terrible! Even WITH a +5 Cloak of Resistance that character has less than a 50% chance to make his save to get out of Frenzy, and depending on damage taken, maybe NO chance of ignoring incidental damage to not Frenzy accidentally. As for the 800 damage, yes the FB does lots of raw PA damage, but he is overspecialized to be a raging machine, hes got no Trip/Disarm stuff, he cannot choose to run away or tactically change position, and that stuff is pretty important to any real combat. This guy runs forward and attacks, taking whatever damage can be dished out by the bad guys very very fast, while the rest of the party disables/outmaneuvers/traps anything that isn't swarming the scary foaming mouth guy. It is my belief that the FB builds make better tanks, but tanks always serve only one purpose, to take the heat off of the rest of the party by soaking enemy resources until they fail a Will save or die.
quester 05-03-04, 04:03 PM	Well said and I agree. But then I injoy playing a non-thinking killing machine.
Glabrezubane 11-28-04, 04:18 PM	Then how about my second suggestion: Amulett of sadism (1/day persistent sadism, use activated); 13.200 GP That makes Spell Level 6 (sadism 2 +4 for persistent) * caster Level 11 * 2000 gp(for use activated) = 132000 / 2 (for a spell with a 24 hour duration) = 66000 / 5 (for an item with just 1 charge) = 13200 gp :D Only disadvantage: if u get dispelled u 'll have to wait till tomorrow to start ur combo all over again. Haven't dug through the whole thread yet (please don't hurt me!), but according to the PGtF, they upped Persistent to a 6 level boost. (Just trying to help.)
KashGarinn 11-28-04, 05:57 PM	I've always wondered whether the FB can activate a magical item while in frenzy and thought that the rage/frenzy description hints that he shouldn't be able to.. I mean he can't tell the difference between a friend or foe.. how can he cognitively make a decision to stop attacking for 6 seconds to activate something? If an item, which gives the FB the sadism enchantment, is user-activated or command word, can the FB activate it after going into frenzy? I'd be interested in seeing how someone better at the magic-item creation formulas would make an item of sadism (cost and how you use it), and perhaps an item of true strike which the fb could use while in frenzy. I've always liked the pure fighter types.. but always felt they kind of suck compared to spellcasters, especially at high levels, mostly because my group only have very few encounters per day, enough so that the spellcasters are always fully prepped, makes fighter types, especially the plain fighter useless. K.
RadicalTaoist 11-28-04, 05:59 PM	Just as well, Persistent Spell is much less broken with a 6 slot increase. Best FB IMHO is Barb1/Ftr4/War Mind5/FB 10 with the feats Education, Wild Talent (to qualify for War Mind), Combat Brute, and Shock Trooper (FB staples). Psionic Lion's Charge on the 1st round, pwn with a Sweeping Strike Full Attack on the second, power attacking with a x5 to hit penalty to damage bonus ratio. Woo.
Glabrezubane 11-28-04, 11:58 PM	No command words, etc? As suggested 'die' might work, if in a language that the character doesn't use commonly (worth the 2 ranks spent in SL. I mean, does a char like this focus all that much on skill ranks anyway?)
Glabrezubane 11-29-04, 12:24 AM	Item of true strike- use activated, trigger set at the swing of a weapon. 5 spell levels*9th caster level*2000=90,000 gp. That seems ludicrously low, however. Ah, well. Constant sadism... 2 spell levels*3rd caster level*4 duration*2,000=48,000 gp. Again, oddly low, but that's probably because of the lowest caster level possible. Please note both items are easily dispellable.
CompleteSatori 11-29-04, 08:42 AM	As noted, this is why the Sadism use activated item is created at 20th caster level, so it is harder to dispel, and certainly worth the extra expenditure of cash.
LordKiwi 11-29-04, 09:01 AM	Ex-Paladin 1 / Blackguard 7 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Barbarian 1 / Frenzied Berserker 10 Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper And you can do every thing by yourself without custom items (Sadism and initial damage bonus on charge). Metamagic rods of Lesser Extend and Quicken Spell would be useful for this build as you can buff up before you rage in no time and Sadism is likely to outlast your Frenzy duration. You also have Uncanny blow for your Bastard sword for insade damage from your strength. Get your allies to flank them for an additional 2d6 damage SA per hit. In our games we put a cap on Sadism and Macochism equal to CL, max +10. Lord Kiwi,
MoonWizard 11-29-04, 11:21 AM	The original build has 4 Ftr levels. I'd take 2 out for the following changes: 1 lvl in Exotic Weapon Master - the damage from this build is highly dependent on STR, so choose Uncanny Blow to increase that damage output Half Ogre - again, this build relies on STR, a LA of 1 for +6 STR and +4 CON is worth it For EWM, you need to use a one-handed weapon in two hands. If you play a Half Ogre, get a Large Bastard Sword (base dam=2d8)
Jeremymc 11-29-04, 01:28 PM	Umm.. I hate to bring this up, but you all DO know that Frenzy doesn't STACK with Rage, but merely overlaps with it, right? You don't get ANOTHER +10 str when you frenzy.
Felonius 11-29-04, 03:57 PM	I hate to bring this up, but you all DO know that Frenzy doesn't STACK with Rage, but merely overlaps with it, right? You don't get ANOTHER +10 str when you frenzy. Please read the description of Frenzy again. Pay close attention to the last sentence of the first paragraph. - F
KashGarinn 11-29-04, 07:28 PM	No command words, etc? As suggested 'die' might work, if in a language that the character doesn't use commonly (worth the 2 ranks spent in SL. I mean, does a char like this focus all that much on skill ranks anyway?) a barbarian can't use command word activated thingies while in rage.. check teh text in the phb. And no DM is going to allow a use-activated unless you actually _use_ the item.. Meaning it needs to be a weapon enhancement.. and no DM is going to allow a use-activated true-strike item or sadism. So if you forget to ativate sadism before raging, or someone dispels its effect.. you'll actually have to use more rounds to kill the thing! btw.. why are spellcasters still more uber than even the twinked FB? Damn bastads. K.
phoenxhwk 11-30-04, 10:48 AM	Ex-Paladin 1 / Blackguard 7 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Barbarian 1 / Frenzied Berserker 10 Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper This build is nice, though not legal. Only 11th level fallen paladins can trade paladin levels in for blackguard levels. You had me wanting to play a blackguard for a second there.
Uthred 03-04-05, 12:09 AM	What are the thoughts on using Goliath as the base race for an fb build ? I would imagine the "powerful build ability" (which I believe would allow you to use a Large Greathammer (Goliath) whos stats I believe would be Dmg s/m/l 2d8/3d6/4d6 x4) would seem to be well worth the LA.
scrollreader 03-04-05, 02:00 AM	Probably not worth it. Another d6 of weapon damage pales next to the multipliers the FB is throwing out. If you're not using LA buyoff, the Goliath's not worth the +1 BAB you could otherwise be power attacking with. If you /are/ using LA buyoff, the Half Ogre is a better deal, at +2 LA, and it makes you /actually/ large, gives reach, and massive Str bonuses.
xXVladimusXx 12-09-06, 11:35 PM	What are the thoughts on using Goliath as the base race for an fb build ? I would imagine the "powerful build ability" (which I believe would allow you to use a Large Greathammer (Goliath) whos stats I believe would be Dmg s/m/l 2d8/3d6/4d6 x4) would seem to be well worth the LA. Greathammer, goliath is actually s/m/l 1d10/1d12/3d6.
Hanniball 12-10-06, 06:15 PM	God this thread brings back memories. Ah the good ol' days.
fricot_1 01-06-07, 09:06 PM	What about throwing in the charging/jumping feats from Unapprochable East? There are a couple that throw in double damage on a jumping charge. It might be able to work here. They are under the "Miscellanous" at the bottom of this page. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4758988&amp;postcount=3 Just a thought on an old build.