An area damaging based caster, Sorceror/Cleric or Druid? [Archive] - Wizards Community

An area damaging based caster, Sorceror/Cleric or Druid? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Crimsonrhino
10-30-06, 11:56 AM Ok,

Im looking at adding a offensive caster to a group. One that can do damage to a radius instead of just to one or two creatures. I was thinking of having a worshipper of Kossuth and specializing with the fire domain spells. I guess Im just very use to playing clerics.

Then I thought that maybe a Sorceror or Druid may be the proper choice. I also assumed that human would be the best choice for race.

How would you guys optimize a caster that is specialized in damaging creatures in a large area?

Thx
Endarire
11-02-06, 04:55 PM Sorcerers seem better at this, but get others' opinions.

-EE
megageek
11-02-06, 04:57 PM If you're the main blaster go warmage from comlete arcane.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer
11-02-06, 05:06 PM Levels? Books Available?
LogicNinja
11-02-06, 05:08 PM Sorcerers are better at this, but overall, it's not one of the better tactics availible to spellcasters. Still, if you want to do it, go sorcerer. Avoid Warmage, because they can't do anything else. Clerics and druids don't have as many of the right spells, and the spells they have generally don't scale as quickly.

If you're going to be throwing around bursts of damage, consider adding battlefield control to your repetoire, so you can keep enemies separate from allies and keep them clumped together for convenient kabooming. Also make sure you have single-target spells, not just fireball-likes.
megageek
11-02-06, 05:10 PM With sorcer(wizard out of the question) you dont have the spells knwn to get that kind of variety...
Grayson
11-02-06, 05:19 PM Level and books available will make a huge difference.

I'd suggest a Warmage 6 / Incantatrix 10 (Player's Guide to Faerun) / Archmage 4.

The warmage can't do anything but blast (and a very few buffs, like fire shield), but they're very, very good at it. As was mentioned, as you get higher levels, blasting becomes less and less useful though.

I'm using a wizard 5 / Incantatrix 10 / Archmage 3 in a game right now, using Arcane Thesis (PHBII) to focus on Orb of Acid. As a 9th level spell, using Thesis and Incantatrix 10, you can get an Orb (4th level) with Empower (4th), Maximize (5th), Twin (7th), and Energy Admixture (9th). With a ranged touch (SR applies), and no save, you're then doing 320 + 15d6 damage to a single target. If you can find the feat space for Easy Metamagic (any one of max/twin/admix), you can add Chain Spell in there, and have all secondary targets within 30' take half on a successful attack roll (they get a save for 1/2 as well). So an average of about 360 damage to your main target, and 180 to secondaries (90 on succ ref save).

As an 18th level human, with the above build, you'd have 14 feats (7 from level, 2 from wizard, 1 from human, 4 from Incantatrix).

Scribe Spell
Arcane Thesis (Orb of Acid)
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
Twin Spell
Energy Subsitution (Whatever)
Energy Admixture (Whatever)
Chain Spell
Quicken Spell
Iron Will
+3 feats

Not taking Archmage makes that combo much easier, as you don't have to pick up Spell Focus x2 and Skill Focus x1. You could use the 3 feats for Easy MM (Quicken, Twin, Admixture), and be able to add in a Quicken (it'd be +1 mod for Orb, heh).

The huge, huge problem with the build is that if someone pops up a Globe of Invulnerability, they're laughing at you. Or Spell Immunity, Energy Immunity, etc. It's a very focused build, and while it's great against an unprepared opponent, you're going to lose a lot of steam against a prepared enemy.
LogicNinja
11-02-06, 05:25 PM The sorcerer will have a LOT more variety than the Warmage, because the Warmage just plain has none.

A sorcerer who chooses his spells carefully can do more than just one thing; battlefield control plus damage is certainly feasible. Part of it is feat selection, metamagic use, and not picking too many overlapping spells; there's no need to take Cone of Cold if you have Fireball and Empower (and Energy Substitution, say).

Here's an off-the-top-of-my-head just-looking-at-the-SRD spell selection:

Level 1: Mage Armor, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Disguise Self, Magic Missile
Level 2: Scorching Ray, Web, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Mirror Image
Level 3: Fireball, Slow, Haste, Ray of Exhaustion
Level 4: Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Greater Invisibility, Wall of Fire
Level 5: Teleport, Overland Flight, Wall of Stone (or Force), Telekinesis
Level 6: Greater Dispel Magic, Disintegrate, Repulsion
Level 7: Finger of Death, Delayed Blast Fireball, Greater Shadow Conjuration
Level 8: Horrid Wilting, Incendiary Cloud, Prismatic Wall
Level 9: Time Stop, Meteor Swarm, Foresight

There's battlefield control, single person damage, multiple-target damage, and even a little bit of utility (you can fly, teleport, go invisible, and keep things from getting to you).

Edit: the Warmage isn't significantly better at blasting--especially if the sorcerer takes, say, Bloodline of Fire, and Calimshite Elementalist. The sorcerer should pick up Energy Substitution, Empower Spell, Accelerate Metamagic(Quicken Spell), Quicken Spell... and, say, the Bloodline and Calimshite feats to boost CL with fire spells, then Searing Spell.

The sorcerer will be able to fill the role of the group's primary arcanist as well as being an AoE blaster. Note that Fireball can be Empowered to be a fifth-level spell as well; then you move up to Delayed Blast Fireball. Battlefield control lets you AoE-blast *more* effectively, because you keep your targets where you want'em and don't worry as much about hitting your friends. Flight and teleport keep you alive to blast longer.
There's more to being a good blaster than just knowing 50 bajillion different AoE spells and casting them randomly.
megageek
11-02-06, 05:26 PM He asked for AOE help...
Grayson
11-02-06, 05:40 PM He asked for AOE help...

Chain spell. Instant AoE that doesn't kill your friends, like Fireball or whatever else would. And no save for the primary target ;)

Sorcerer definately has versatility over the Warmage, so if that's important, definately go Sorcerer. The Warmage just gets a lot more variety of blasting. Having fireballs available is great, until you run up against something that's immune to fire. Warmage also gets spells that aren't normally available, such as Flamestrike, Blade Barrier, Firestorm (one of the best AoE spells in the game), Implosion.. I'm probably forgetting a few.

Warmage isn't weak on battlefield control either. Evard's Black Tentacles, Sleet Storm, Acid Fog, Wall of Fire, Blade Barrier, Earthquake, Prismatic Wall.. Definately not as good as a sorcerer who focused on it would be, but I've never found it an aspect that's lacking in my repetoire.

Oh, depending on how your DM views "Extra Spell", you can use the feat to pick up Limited Wish as a warmage. Or just go with the wiz/sorc route, and get it anyways. 300xp per casting, which hurts, but it gives you the best versatility available (any sorc/wiz 5th or lower, 4th level for any other spell list)
megageek
11-02-06, 05:44 PM And sorcer focused on battlefeild control wouldn't have as many other options. Besides warmages are harder to kill and simpler:cool: .
LogicNinja
11-02-06, 05:48 PM That's not true. Armor or not, warmages are much easier to kill, because they don't have Fly, Teleport, Mirror Image, or any of the spells that casters usually use to keep safe.
Grayson
11-02-06, 05:49 PM Warmage isn't harder to kill at all. That extra 1hp per level on average and medium armour doesn't make up for the defensive spells you're missing. Mage Armour Greater, Mirror Image, Displacement, Blur, Invisibility, Invisibility Greater, etc etc.. all are options available to the sorcerer.

I had a fairly generalist warmage that was warmage 7 / incantatrix 10, and it worked quite well. He suffered with poor saves though, and since he didn't have Arcane Thesis, his damage potential was way lower than it could have been. That guy died, and the party still needed an arcane blaster, so I brought in the wizard/incant/archmage, and it works way, way better, including killing groups (chain spell makes it easy).

If you wanted to focus purely on AoE, without going with orbs, use the same Arcane Thesis stuff on whatever AoE spell you prefer. Orb is, imo, superior, but it's got it's drawbacks - requiring the ranged touch, and short range (Widen Spell doubles the range, which is quite worthwhile).
megageek
11-02-06, 05:51 PM With 1 feat it's heavy armor... And they get bonus metamagic feats.
Grayson
11-02-06, 06:00 PM I'll take Greater Inivisiibility over platemail anyday ;) A bit higher AC will certainly help, but Dimension Door to get out of reach is a heckuva lot better. Or not getting attacked at all because you can fly, have invisiblity, displacement, mirror images going, etc.

I can't remember which book Twilight is in - Complete Arcane? Some mithril twilight armour is going to be nearly as good as heavy armour, plus you don't lose movement, take huge armour check penalties, and don't have to waste a feat.
megageek
11-02-06, 06:03 PM That last part helped my point... Imagine that you have used up most of your spell slots so you have to save yourself instead of chainspelling the hobgoblins swarming your lvl10 fighter friends...
megageek
11-02-06, 06:04 PM Then agan I'm probaly biased.
NineInchNall
11-02-06, 06:20 PM And maybe you're not thinking about this clearly. Simply by being able to cast fly a Sorcerer presents a harder target than a Warmage in heavy armor.

It doesn't take many spells known to be a good to great blaster. In fact, some of the nastiest blasters in recent times only use one low level spell as their primary AoE/single target damage option. Bill Bisco above can point out how that works. This is done while maintaining spell versatility for utility, defense, and battlefield control.
Crimsonrhino
11-02-06, 07:25 PM I have to agree that for my game I think the Sorceror would be the best choice. Imp invis plus fly and fireballs/chain or m.missle makes a nasty mo fo.
Zemyla
11-02-06, 07:37 PM Dragon Magic, PHBII, and Complete Mage give more options to warmages. There is an evocation spell in Dragon Magic that gives you flight (albeit at 5th level), a 4th level evocation teleport in Dragon Magic, and the eclectic learning class feature in PHBII.
ChristopherGroves
11-02-06, 07:41 PM Sorcerers are better at this, but overall, it's not one of the better tactics availible to spellcasters. Still, if you want to do it, go sorcerer. Avoid Warmage, because they can't do anything else. Clerics and druids don't have as many of the right spells, and the spells they have generally don't scale as quickly.

If you're going to be throwing around bursts of damage, consider adding battlefield control to your repetoire, so you can keep enemies separate from allies and keep them clumped together for convenient kabooming. Also make sure you have single-target spells, not just fireball-likes.

Changeling Beguiler - Recaster is my vote. Beguiler is so much better than Warmage that it is silly.

And I love warmages. Love the concept. It's only for the serious masochist though.
GaffeR
11-02-06, 07:57 PM Kineticist isn't a bad option either. Some of the energy powers are plain nasty.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crimsonrhino 10-30-06, 11:56 AM	Ok, Im looking at adding a offensive caster to a group. One that can do damage to a radius instead of just to one or two creatures. I was thinking of having a worshipper of Kossuth and specializing with the fire domain spells. I guess Im just very use to playing clerics. Then I thought that maybe a Sorceror or Druid may be the proper choice. I also assumed that human would be the best choice for race. How would you guys optimize a caster that is specialized in damaging creatures in a large area? Thx
Endarire 11-02-06, 04:55 PM	Sorcerers seem better at this, but get others' opinions. -EE
megageek 11-02-06, 04:57 PM	If you're the main blaster go warmage from comlete arcane.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-02-06, 05:06 PM	Levels? Books Available?
LogicNinja 11-02-06, 05:08 PM	Sorcerers are better at this, but overall, it's not one of the better tactics availible to spellcasters. Still, if you want to do it, go sorcerer. Avoid Warmage, because they can't do anything else. Clerics and druids don't have as many of the right spells, and the spells they have generally don't scale as quickly. If you're going to be throwing around bursts of damage, consider adding battlefield control to your repetoire, so you can keep enemies separate from allies and keep them clumped together for convenient kabooming. Also make sure you have single-target spells, not just fireball-likes.
megageek 11-02-06, 05:10 PM	With sorcer(wizard out of the question) you dont have the spells knwn to get that kind of variety...
Grayson 11-02-06, 05:19 PM	Level and books available will make a huge difference. I'd suggest a Warmage 6 / Incantatrix 10 (Player's Guide to Faerun) / Archmage 4. The warmage can't do anything but blast (and a very few buffs, like fire shield), but they're very, very good at it. As was mentioned, as you get higher levels, blasting becomes less and less useful though. I'm using a wizard 5 / Incantatrix 10 / Archmage 3 in a game right now, using Arcane Thesis (PHBII) to focus on Orb of Acid. As a 9th level spell, using Thesis and Incantatrix 10, you can get an Orb (4th level) with Empower (4th), Maximize (5th), Twin (7th), and Energy Admixture (9th). With a ranged touch (SR applies), and no save, you're then doing 320 + 15d6 damage to a single target. If you can find the feat space for Easy Metamagic (any one of max/twin/admix), you can add Chain Spell in there, and have all secondary targets within 30' take half on a successful attack roll (they get a save for 1/2 as well). So an average of about 360 damage to your main target, and 180 to secondaries (90 on succ ref save). As an 18th level human, with the above build, you'd have 14 feats (7 from level, 2 from wizard, 1 from human, 4 from Incantatrix). Scribe Spell Arcane Thesis (Orb of Acid) Empower Spell Maximize Spell Twin Spell Energy Subsitution (Whatever) Energy Admixture (Whatever) Chain Spell Quicken Spell Iron Will +3 feats Not taking Archmage makes that combo much easier, as you don't have to pick up Spell Focus x2 and Skill Focus x1. You could use the 3 feats for Easy MM (Quicken, Twin, Admixture), and be able to add in a Quicken (it'd be +1 mod for Orb, heh). The huge, huge problem with the build is that if someone pops up a Globe of Invulnerability, they're laughing at you. Or Spell Immunity, Energy Immunity, etc. It's a very focused build, and while it's great against an unprepared opponent, you're going to lose a lot of steam against a prepared enemy.
LogicNinja 11-02-06, 05:25 PM	The sorcerer will have a LOT more variety than the Warmage, because the Warmage just plain has none. A sorcerer who chooses his spells carefully can do more than just one thing; battlefield control plus damage is certainly feasible. Part of it is feat selection, metamagic use, and not picking too many overlapping spells; there's no need to take Cone of Cold if you have Fireball and Empower (and Energy Substitution, say). Here's an off-the-top-of-my-head just-looking-at-the-SRD spell selection: Level 1: Mage Armor, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Disguise Self, Magic Missile Level 2: Scorching Ray, Web, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Mirror Image Level 3: Fireball, Slow, Haste, Ray of Exhaustion Level 4: Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Greater Invisibility, Wall of Fire Level 5: Teleport, Overland Flight, Wall of Stone (or Force), Telekinesis Level 6: Greater Dispel Magic, Disintegrate, Repulsion Level 7: Finger of Death, Delayed Blast Fireball, Greater Shadow Conjuration Level 8: Horrid Wilting, Incendiary Cloud, Prismatic Wall Level 9: Time Stop, Meteor Swarm, Foresight There's battlefield control, single person damage, multiple-target damage, and even a little bit of utility (you can fly, teleport, go invisible, and keep things from getting to you). Edit: the Warmage isn't significantly better at blasting--especially if the sorcerer takes, say, Bloodline of Fire, and Calimshite Elementalist. The sorcerer should pick up Energy Substitution, Empower Spell, Accelerate Metamagic(Quicken Spell), Quicken Spell... and, say, the Bloodline and Calimshite feats to boost CL with fire spells, then Searing Spell. The sorcerer will be able to fill the role of the group's primary arcanist as well as being an AoE blaster. Note that Fireball can be Empowered to be a fifth-level spell as well; then you move up to Delayed Blast Fireball. Battlefield control lets you AoE-blast more effectively, because you keep your targets where you want'em and don't worry as much about hitting your friends. Flight and teleport keep you alive to blast longer. There's more to being a good blaster than just knowing 50 bajillion different AoE spells and casting them randomly.
megageek 11-02-06, 05:26 PM	He asked for AOE help...
Grayson 11-02-06, 05:40 PM	He asked for AOE help... Chain spell. Instant AoE that doesn't kill your friends, like Fireball or whatever else would. And no save for the primary target ;) Sorcerer definately has versatility over the Warmage, so if that's important, definately go Sorcerer. The Warmage just gets a lot more variety of blasting. Having fireballs available is great, until you run up against something that's immune to fire. Warmage also gets spells that aren't normally available, such as Flamestrike, Blade Barrier, Firestorm (one of the best AoE spells in the game), Implosion.. I'm probably forgetting a few. Warmage isn't weak on battlefield control either. Evard's Black Tentacles, Sleet Storm, Acid Fog, Wall of Fire, Blade Barrier, Earthquake, Prismatic Wall.. Definately not as good as a sorcerer who focused on it would be, but I've never found it an aspect that's lacking in my repetoire. Oh, depending on how your DM views "Extra Spell", you can use the feat to pick up Limited Wish as a warmage. Or just go with the wiz/sorc route, and get it anyways. 300xp per casting, which hurts, but it gives you the best versatility available (any sorc/wiz 5th or lower, 4th level for any other spell list)
megageek 11-02-06, 05:44 PM	And sorcer focused on battlefeild control wouldn't have as many other options. Besides warmages are harder to kill and simpler:cool: .
LogicNinja 11-02-06, 05:48 PM	That's not true. Armor or not, warmages are much easier to kill, because they don't have Fly, Teleport, Mirror Image, or any of the spells that casters usually use to keep safe.
Grayson 11-02-06, 05:49 PM	Warmage isn't harder to kill at all. That extra 1hp per level on average and medium armour doesn't make up for the defensive spells you're missing. Mage Armour Greater, Mirror Image, Displacement, Blur, Invisibility, Invisibility Greater, etc etc.. all are options available to the sorcerer. I had a fairly generalist warmage that was warmage 7 / incantatrix 10, and it worked quite well. He suffered with poor saves though, and since he didn't have Arcane Thesis, his damage potential was way lower than it could have been. That guy died, and the party still needed an arcane blaster, so I brought in the wizard/incant/archmage, and it works way, way better, including killing groups (chain spell makes it easy). If you wanted to focus purely on AoE, without going with orbs, use the same Arcane Thesis stuff on whatever AoE spell you prefer. Orb is, imo, superior, but it's got it's drawbacks - requiring the ranged touch, and short range (Widen Spell doubles the range, which is quite worthwhile).
megageek 11-02-06, 05:51 PM	With 1 feat it's heavy armor... And they get bonus metamagic feats.
Grayson 11-02-06, 06:00 PM	I'll take Greater Inivisiibility over platemail anyday ;) A bit higher AC will certainly help, but Dimension Door to get out of reach is a heckuva lot better. Or not getting attacked at all because you can fly, have invisiblity, displacement, mirror images going, etc. I can't remember which book Twilight is in - Complete Arcane? Some mithril twilight armour is going to be nearly as good as heavy armour, plus you don't lose movement, take huge armour check penalties, and don't have to waste a feat.
megageek 11-02-06, 06:03 PM	That last part helped my point... Imagine that you have used up most of your spell slots so you have to save yourself instead of chainspelling the hobgoblins swarming your lvl10 fighter friends...
megageek 11-02-06, 06:04 PM	Then agan I'm probaly biased.
NineInchNall 11-02-06, 06:20 PM	And maybe you're not thinking about this clearly. Simply by being able to cast fly a Sorcerer presents a harder target than a Warmage in heavy armor. It doesn't take many spells known to be a good to great blaster. In fact, some of the nastiest blasters in recent times only use one low level spell as their primary AoE/single target damage option. Bill Bisco above can point out how that works. This is done while maintaining spell versatility for utility, defense, and battlefield control.
Crimsonrhino 11-02-06, 07:25 PM	I have to agree that for my game I think the Sorceror would be the best choice. Imp invis plus fly and fireballs/chain or m.missle makes a nasty mo fo.
Zemyla 11-02-06, 07:37 PM	Dragon Magic, PHBII, and Complete Mage give more options to warmages. There is an evocation spell in Dragon Magic that gives you flight (albeit at 5th level), a 4th level evocation teleport in Dragon Magic, and the eclectic learning class feature in PHBII.
ChristopherGroves 11-02-06, 07:41 PM	Sorcerers are better at this, but overall, it's not one of the better tactics availible to spellcasters. Still, if you want to do it, go sorcerer. Avoid Warmage, because they can't do anything else. Clerics and druids don't have as many of the right spells, and the spells they have generally don't scale as quickly. If you're going to be throwing around bursts of damage, consider adding battlefield control to your repetoire, so you can keep enemies separate from allies and keep them clumped together for convenient kabooming. Also make sure you have single-target spells, not just fireball-likes. Changeling Beguiler - Recaster is my vote. Beguiler is so much better than Warmage that it is silly. And I love warmages. Love the concept. It's only for the serious masochist though.
GaffeR 11-02-06, 07:57 PM	Kineticist isn't a bad option either. Some of the energy powers are plain nasty.