An artifacer based challenge [Archive] - Wizards Community

An artifacer based challenge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
StoneTree
11-04-04, 07:09 PM I have here a challenge for you guys.

Often, optimization is based on taking a broken rule mechanic and seeing what you can do with it. Of course, the logical conclusion is the more broken rule mechanics you can stack, the better. The problem lies in when they don't stack cleanly, or emphasize different strengths... for example, I've yet to see an even stacking of the Ur Priest and the Hulking Hurler.

And, of course, sometimes they run at cross purposes.

So, the challenge! What is the strongest level 20 Vow of Poverty artifacer build known to man?
PhoenixInferno
11-04-04, 08:02 PM Is this a new Zen koan? That's like asking "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" The artificer is based entirely off of his items - most (if not all) of his class skills are useless if he's denied items. The best he can do perform comissioned work for Exalted causes and can't even charge for that.
scrollreader
11-04-04, 08:12 PM Obviously, the answer is "an artificer with leadership"

Pass those metamagic item wands out. Get yourself a strong cohort (maybe even a dragon) who has either spellcasting ability, or UMD, or both. Kit them the heck /out/. Use the blastificer or the buffer or a bit from both. Build him wands, and the like, as well as a custom suite of defensive items. Hell. Be a melee artificer. Use Spell Storing Item to buff yourself persistantly (a rock is not an item of value), and then infuse that quarterstaff and go kick some evil ass. You'll pay some Xp, which will hurt. But in exchange ... imagine all your level one followers (sorcerors, all) with maximized wands. :D
Impeesa
11-04-04, 08:32 PM Here's a nifty one that works without VoP, but synergizes nicely. Take Exceptional/Legendary/Extroardinary Artisan feats. Notice something unusual? They're Item Creation feats, but they basically apply to anything you craft. Magical Artisan applies to a single Item Creation feat each time you take it, and reduces the cost by 25% any time you craft an item using that feat. The math comes out nicely to "cost = 0". Use item classes that don't require MW-value material components (contingent spell, infusion, etc), or deck out your allies in the finest gear no money can buy.

--Impeesa--
Bacris
11-04-04, 08:35 PM errata nerfed that
Impeesa
11-04-04, 08:43 PM In what way? Are the Eberron Artisan feats no longer Item Creation? If that's the case, you can still pull it off in a roundabout way by making things that require more than one item creation feat (say, wondrous + scroll for a reuseable spell-completion item).

--Impeesa--
Eyeless Blond
11-04-04, 08:48 PM So does normal everyday math. Discounting someting by 25% four times does not give you a net discount of 100%; it's actually more like 68%.

*Edit* What, did you think you could take one of those feats five times and *earn* money while crafting?
Bacris
11-04-04, 08:49 PM sorry, misread your post.

But, the math doesn't quite work that way:

100 X .75 X .75 X .75 X .75 != 0, it is 31.64

So at best, you're paying 1/3 cost instead of 3/4 cost, so still need funds to create unless you spend XP instead.
Impeesa
11-04-04, 08:58 PM I am well aware of diminishing returns and asymptotic behaviour. Trust me. However, that's how math works - not D&D. ;) Observe the multiplier rule:

(x2) + (x2) = x3

Essentially, this is a special definition of multiplication, where "xN" means "add N-1 to the original value". Magical Artisan says you pay 75%. Multiply by .75 translates to subtracting 25% of the base cost from your final cost. Do that four times and you get pretty close to zero. :D

Addendum:
*Edit* What, did you think you could take one of those feats five times and *earn* money while crafting?

What do you mean, five times? Perhaps you could take Magical Artisan for whatever actual item creation feat you were working with, you can't take the Eberron Artisan feats more than once (despite the footnote - that's a mistake). In either case, you obviously couldn't go below a 100% discount. The difference between a 100% discount and a 125% discount is that one is ridiculous because it breaks game balance, while the other is ridiculous because it makes no sense at all inside or outside the game. One of these is welcome here, the other is not. ;)

--Impeesa--
scrollreader
11-04-04, 09:04 PM Regardless, the feats from Eberron do not stack with a feat by the same name. The feat descroption (remember, those override the tables) makes this clear enough in the original printing, while the Erratta makes it obvious.

How about a legitimate suggestion, for the request? :rolleyes:
Impeesa
11-04-04, 09:06 PM Regardless, the feats from Eberron do not stack with a feat by the same name. The feat descroption (remember, those override the tables) makes this clear enough in the original printing, while the Erratta makes it obvious.

Good thing that has absolutely nothing to do with my proposal.

--Impeesa--
scrollreader
11-04-04, 09:14 PM Well then. Don't leave us all in suspense. Posit us an item, and the feats you'd use to make it for free.
RadicalTaoist
11-04-04, 09:43 PM Obviously, the answer is "an artificer with leadership"

Pass those metamagic item wands out. Get yourself a strong cohort (maybe even a dragon) who has either spellcasting ability, or UMD, or both. Kit them the heck /out/. Use the blastificer or the buffer or a bit from both. Build him wands, and the like, as well as a custom suite of defensive items. Hell. Be a melee artificer. Use Spell Storing Item to buff yourself persistantly (a rock is not an item of value), and then infuse that quarterstaff and go kick some evil ass. You'll pay some Xp, which will hurt. But in exchange ... imagine all your level one followers (sorcerors, all) with maximized wands. :DI didn't think it at all possible...then you posted.
You are now the official best min/maxer ever.
Impeesa
11-04-04, 09:59 PM Well then. Don't leave us all in suspense. Posit us an item, and the feats you'd use to make it for free.

Anything. As per my original post, the three Eberron artificer feats are [Item Creation], and Magical Artisan applies to Item Creation feats (and can be taken multiple times for different feats). The Eberron feats apply to any item you craft, so by extension so does the matching Magical Artisan. It works out quite nicely that the three different Eberron feats together give you 25% off everything, and then applying Magical Artisan for each of those three gives you the other 75% off gp and xp costs.

--Impeesa--
scrollreader
11-04-04, 10:10 PM Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

:bow:

Most Impressive.

I'm not sure if it would work with a VoP, since reductions in cost to make do not reduce market value. So you'd own something of value. You might be able to argue that a contingent spell (which is a feat all artificers should have anyway, IMO) is of no value to anyone else, and free for you to make ... but it still has a GP value.

Also ... Wow. That's awesomely cheesy. Bravo. :bow:
Impeesa
11-04-04, 10:45 PM Yeah, it would really work best combined with something like your idea (twinking out a cohort and/or followers), but it does just fine decking out your fellow party members. And you need never save or spend a single penny (or even precious craft reserve, now that I think about it) - just time, and 3/4 the normal time at that. Of course, you've spent six feats setting it up, so it better be cool. ;)

--Impeesa--
Tempest Stormwind
11-05-04, 12:48 AM The two-doubles-equal-a-triple thing only applies to dice rolls.

When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead.

I read your first post and immediately gathered what you were trying to do, and it still doesn't work out. You'd have to pay about 30%, as Bacris pointed out.

You can reduce that by a further 25% by taking Magical Artisan with the item creation feat you actually use to make the item (you get them all as bonus feats anyway).

That's the best you can do. Believe me, though, it's enough. If you did this (took Legendary/Exceptional/Extraordinary Artisan, Magical Artisan with each of them, AND Magical Artisan with any relevant item creation feats), you'd effectively have a budget of 3,202,633.75 GP at level 20 (760000 base, five reductions of 25% mean .75 ^ 5, and multiplying the reciprocal of that with your base cash). This is a shipload of money.

To make matters a bit easier to handle, and not eat up every character feat you have, the Arms and Equipment guide provides rough guidelines for the creation of items that grant feats. Could you imagine? Making yourself a forge/kiln/workbench/toaster oven (stationary items are usually cheaper) that grants Magical Artisan to relevant feats? Would it be possible? Could you find a DM that would allow you to do SOME approximation of this?

Probably. But it's not applicable to this challenge, sadly.

I apologize for the aside. Now, back to your regularily scheduled topic.
Impeesa
11-05-04, 01:22 AM I think the SRD quote you refer to is more intended for things like size/weight/carrying capacity multipliers based on size (since using the multiplier rule on those would just completely mess things up). I think item creation cost isn't considered a 'real world value' - it's something you calculate based completely on abstract game concepts, and then translate into a cost in character resources. The argument could be made that gp is a real world value, but I wouldn't say so - also, XP really isn't, and with regards to this debate the XP cost really shouldn't be handled differently from the GP cost. It's one or the other.

PHB, page 304 has the relevant rules. It looks to me from a quick reading there that the multiplier rule applies to anything defined by game rules, while normal math applies to any real-world measurements that are simply referred to by the game.

But failing all that (or ignoring it to maintain some distant semblance of balance), yeah, it's still pretty cool. ;)

Edit: Almost forgot. Yeah, I can totally see those items working. "Lathe of Efficient Staff Creation" or some such thing. As for whether a DM would let it fly, I don't know, but I believe there's actually precedent (a hammer that granted a discount or reduced time when crafting arms & armor, I think).

--Impeesa--
Skulan
11-05-04, 02:19 AM There is some precedent for applying the multiplying rule to experience points, at least. The experience penalty for multiclassing applies a cumulative -20% per class that isn't within one level of the highest class. The examples given on page 60 of the PHB clearly indicate that two such penalties add up to -40%. And if it works for xp, it might work for gold as well. Just another bit of evidence to consider.

-Skulan

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StoneTree 11-04-04, 07:09 PM	I have here a challenge for you guys. Often, optimization is based on taking a broken rule mechanic and seeing what you can do with it. Of course, the logical conclusion is the more broken rule mechanics you can stack, the better. The problem lies in when they don't stack cleanly, or emphasize different strengths... for example, I've yet to see an even stacking of the Ur Priest and the Hulking Hurler. And, of course, sometimes they run at cross purposes. So, the challenge! What is the strongest level 20 Vow of Poverty artifacer build known to man?
PhoenixInferno 11-04-04, 08:02 PM	Is this a new Zen koan? That's like asking "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" The artificer is based entirely off of his items - most (if not all) of his class skills are useless if he's denied items. The best he can do perform comissioned work for Exalted causes and can't even charge for that.
scrollreader 11-04-04, 08:12 PM	Obviously, the answer is "an artificer with leadership" Pass those metamagic item wands out. Get yourself a strong cohort (maybe even a dragon) who has either spellcasting ability, or UMD, or both. Kit them the heck /out/. Use the blastificer or the buffer or a bit from both. Build him wands, and the like, as well as a custom suite of defensive items. Hell. Be a melee artificer. Use Spell Storing Item to buff yourself persistantly (a rock is not an item of value), and then infuse that quarterstaff and go kick some evil ass. You'll pay some Xp, which will hurt. But in exchange ... imagine all your level one followers (sorcerors, all) with maximized wands. :D
Impeesa 11-04-04, 08:32 PM	Here's a nifty one that works without VoP, but synergizes nicely. Take Exceptional/Legendary/Extroardinary Artisan feats. Notice something unusual? They're Item Creation feats, but they basically apply to anything you craft. Magical Artisan applies to a single Item Creation feat each time you take it, and reduces the cost by 25% any time you craft an item using that feat. The math comes out nicely to "cost = 0". Use item classes that don't require MW-value material components (contingent spell, infusion, etc), or deck out your allies in the finest gear no money can buy. --Impeesa--
Bacris 11-04-04, 08:35 PM	errata nerfed that
Impeesa 11-04-04, 08:43 PM	In what way? Are the Eberron Artisan feats no longer Item Creation? If that's the case, you can still pull it off in a roundabout way by making things that require more than one item creation feat (say, wondrous + scroll for a reuseable spell-completion item). --Impeesa--
Eyeless Blond 11-04-04, 08:48 PM	So does normal everyday math. Discounting someting by 25% four times does not give you a net discount of 100%; it's actually more like 68%. Edit What, did you think you could take one of those feats five times and earn money while crafting?
Bacris 11-04-04, 08:49 PM	sorry, misread your post. But, the math doesn't quite work that way: 100 X .75 X .75 X .75 X .75 != 0, it is 31.64 So at best, you're paying 1/3 cost instead of 3/4 cost, so still need funds to create unless you spend XP instead.
Impeesa 11-04-04, 08:58 PM	I am well aware of diminishing returns and asymptotic behaviour. Trust me. However, that's how math works - not D&D. ;) Observe the multiplier rule: (x2) + (x2) = x3 Essentially, this is a special definition of multiplication, where "xN" means "add N-1 to the original value". Magical Artisan says you pay 75%. Multiply by .75 translates to subtracting 25% of the base cost from your final cost. Do that four times and you get pretty close to zero. :D Addendum: Edit What, did you think you could take one of those feats five times and earn money while crafting? What do you mean, five times? Perhaps you could take Magical Artisan for whatever actual item creation feat you were working with, you can't take the Eberron Artisan feats more than once (despite the footnote - that's a mistake). In either case, you obviously couldn't go below a 100% discount. The difference between a 100% discount and a 125% discount is that one is ridiculous because it breaks game balance, while the other is ridiculous because it makes no sense at all inside or outside the game. One of these is welcome here, the other is not. ;) --Impeesa--
scrollreader 11-04-04, 09:04 PM	Regardless, the feats from Eberron do not stack with a feat by the same name. The feat descroption (remember, those override the tables) makes this clear enough in the original printing, while the Erratta makes it obvious. How about a legitimate suggestion, for the request? :rolleyes:
Impeesa 11-04-04, 09:06 PM	Regardless, the feats from Eberron do not stack with a feat by the same name. The feat descroption (remember, those override the tables) makes this clear enough in the original printing, while the Erratta makes it obvious. Good thing that has absolutely nothing to do with my proposal. --Impeesa--
scrollreader 11-04-04, 09:14 PM	Well then. Don't leave us all in suspense. Posit us an item, and the feats you'd use to make it for free.
RadicalTaoist 11-04-04, 09:43 PM	Obviously, the answer is "an artificer with leadership" Pass those metamagic item wands out. Get yourself a strong cohort (maybe even a dragon) who has either spellcasting ability, or UMD, or both. Kit them the heck /out/. Use the blastificer or the buffer or a bit from both. Build him wands, and the like, as well as a custom suite of defensive items. Hell. Be a melee artificer. Use Spell Storing Item to buff yourself persistantly (a rock is not an item of value), and then infuse that quarterstaff and go kick some evil ass. You'll pay some Xp, which will hurt. But in exchange ... imagine all your level one followers (sorcerors, all) with maximized wands. :DI didn't think it at all possible...then you posted. You are now the official best min/maxer ever.
Impeesa 11-04-04, 09:59 PM	Well then. Don't leave us all in suspense. Posit us an item, and the feats you'd use to make it for free. Anything. As per my original post, the three Eberron artificer feats are [Item Creation], and Magical Artisan applies to Item Creation feats (and can be taken multiple times for different feats). The Eberron feats apply to any item you craft, so by extension so does the matching Magical Artisan. It works out quite nicely that the three different Eberron feats together give you 25% off everything, and then applying Magical Artisan for each of those three gives you the other 75% off gp and xp costs. --Impeesa--
scrollreader 11-04-04, 10:10 PM	Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. :bow: Most Impressive. I'm not sure if it would work with a VoP, since reductions in cost to make do not reduce market value. So you'd own something of value. You might be able to argue that a contingent spell (which is a feat all artificers should have anyway, IMO) is of no value to anyone else, and free for you to make ... but it still has a GP value. Also ... Wow. That's awesomely cheesy. Bravo. :bow:
Impeesa 11-04-04, 10:45 PM	Yeah, it would really work best combined with something like your idea (twinking out a cohort and/or followers), but it does just fine decking out your fellow party members. And you need never save or spend a single penny (or even precious craft reserve, now that I think about it) - just time, and 3/4 the normal time at that. Of course, you've spent six feats setting it up, so it better be cool. ;) --Impeesa--
Tempest Stormwind 11-05-04, 12:48 AM	The two-doubles-equal-a-triple thing only applies to dice rolls. When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. I read your first post and immediately gathered what you were trying to do, and it still doesn't work out. You'd have to pay about 30%, as Bacris pointed out. You can reduce that by a further 25% by taking Magical Artisan with the item creation feat you actually use to make the item (you get them all as bonus feats anyway). That's the best you can do. Believe me, though, it's enough. If you did this (took Legendary/Exceptional/Extraordinary Artisan, Magical Artisan with each of them, AND Magical Artisan with any relevant item creation feats), you'd effectively have a budget of 3,202,633.75 GP at level 20 (760000 base, five reductions of 25% mean .75 ^ 5, and multiplying the reciprocal of that with your base cash). This is a shipload of money. To make matters a bit easier to handle, and not eat up every character feat you have, the Arms and Equipment guide provides rough guidelines for the creation of items that grant feats. Could you imagine? Making yourself a forge/kiln/workbench/toaster oven (stationary items are usually cheaper) that grants Magical Artisan to relevant feats? Would it be possible? Could you find a DM that would allow you to do SOME approximation of this? Probably. But it's not applicable to this challenge, sadly. I apologize for the aside. Now, back to your regularily scheduled topic.
Impeesa 11-05-04, 01:22 AM	I think the SRD quote you refer to is more intended for things like size/weight/carrying capacity multipliers based on size (since using the multiplier rule on those would just completely mess things up). I think item creation cost isn't considered a 'real world value' - it's something you calculate based completely on abstract game concepts, and then translate into a cost in character resources. The argument could be made that gp is a real world value, but I wouldn't say so - also, XP really isn't, and with regards to this debate the XP cost really shouldn't be handled differently from the GP cost. It's one or the other. PHB, page 304 has the relevant rules. It looks to me from a quick reading there that the multiplier rule applies to anything defined by game rules, while normal math applies to any real-world measurements that are simply referred to by the game. But failing all that (or ignoring it to maintain some distant semblance of balance), yeah, it's still pretty cool. ;) Edit: Almost forgot. Yeah, I can totally see those items working. "Lathe of Efficient Staff Creation" or some such thing. As for whether a DM would let it fly, I don't know, but I believe there's actually precedent (a hammer that granted a discount or reduced time when crafting arms & armor, I think). --Impeesa--
Skulan 11-05-04, 02:19 AM	There is some precedent for applying the multiplying rule to experience points, at least. The experience penalty for multiclassing applies a cumulative -20% per class that isn't within one level of the highest class. The examples given on page 60 of the PHB clearly indicate that two such penalties add up to -40%. And if it works for xp, it might work for gold as well. Just another bit of evidence to consider. -Skulan