An attempt to optimise a Swash 20 [Archive] - Wizards Community

An attempt to optimise a Swash 20 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AngelLemmingThief
03-31-06, 08:37 AM I don't know why but I thought I'd have a try at optimising a Swashbuckler 20. Maybe it is becauses no-one ever seems to take more than 3 level of Swash. Maybe it is because I really like the class, concept, & genre. Maybe I'm just dumb.

I'm not sure where to go build-wise but I thought I'd break it down into individual steps.

Skills Swashies get a nice range of skills including movement based skills such as climb, jump, and tumble which are essential for swashbuckling maneuevres. They also get a few social skills such as bluff and sense motive. They could go the feinting route. I figure without multi-classing they won't benefit hugely from feinting though. They also get balance which may come in handy later. They get a mediocre 4 skill points per level. Not enough for a skill monkey but hopefully enough for our needs (when these needs are actually decided).

BAB Full BAB. Handy. Implies an in your face warrior type (at least to me). Good for the iterative attacks, also good for use with combat expertise and power attack.

HD d10 hit die, again helpful for a melee sort.

Good save Fort. Worth pointing out as I always think of them as a reflexy type class. They aren't, but see Grace later (oo-er matron)

Armour and weapons Simple, martial, and light. So the traditional rapier is fine but I might consider other weapons later. We'll want probably some mithral medium armour, or some other suitably buff light armour.

And now for the abilities.

Free Weapon Finesse So Dex over Str it is. Also worth watching out for extra sassy finessable weapons like the elven ___blades for example.

Grace Brings the Ref save up to be medium (between good and poor). One of the reasons not to wear too heavy armour. Worth noting that although Swashies are not proficient with shields their abilities don't prevent their use.

Insightful Strike One of the rarer abilities this might need some introduction... oh who am I kidding :) So Dex was good, and now so is Int. Doesn't work against constructs etc, but then constructs probably can't swing on a chandeliers. Also worth pointing out that this works with light weapons and those that are finessable (*cough* elven courtblade 2handed finesse cheese)

Dodge bonus At little titbit, a nice +4 dodge bonus that stacks nicely. It was this ability that got me thinking. This is open to interpretation but I think being able to add a second dodge target when combining this ability with the Dodge feat allows a second target on Elusive Target's Diverting Defense, which if allowed is kind of nice.

Acrobatic charge/Acrobatic skill mastery I'm combining these two into one section. Basically we can charge through rough terrain (swinging happily on chandeliers on the way) and we can take 10 in doing so. I think this is where the build will have to come into its own. What we need I think is an item, probably custom, though I'm not overly familiar with magic items and the item may already exist. This item basically needs to create a difficult terrain. What I am thinking is if you can create small walls, and/or distribute caltrops or marbles, and/or hang chandeliers from the sky you'll create an environment where the swashbuckler can move more efficiently than anyone else (other than thief-acrobats, exemplars, high-level rogues, skill monkeys, fliers, teleporters, ...). OK, OK, it is thin but I think this is where the niche is. Give a swashbuckler a busy environment and they should be able to use it their advantage. Grease would be fun too. Let me know if this actually viable or not.

Slippery mind Nice to have, not sure what else to say about this. I don't think there are any feats (at least pre-epic) this qualifies for but still, it is nice to have. Goes some way to making up for the poor will save.

Weakening/Wounding critical Yeah baby, weakening and wounding fun. I'm not sure how often this will be effective at 20th level but good none the less. We have a big choice of the Keen weapon enhancement or the Improved Critical feat to improve our chances of this kicking off. I'm going to go with Keen. Combine with Wounding for more con damage loving.

That's the abilities now to attempt some kind of build.

Hmmm, well. I think I want an elf for a dex bonus and cheaper access to the elven cheeseblades. Fire elf seems to be the best bet without LA. Dex and Int bonuses, sadly Cha and Con penalties. But +1 AC, to hit, damage, and skill points per level seems good to me.

Statwise I guess they'd line up something like Dex, Int, Con, Str, Wis/Cha. My point buy is rusty but it would be nice to have 16 Dex and Int, with a half-decent Con & Str. If not, well there's always magic.

Given a 16 Int plus 2 racial gives up to 8 skills to potentially max. I'd be tempted to max Jump, Tumble and spread the rest. They only have 12 skills anyway including Profession and Craft. Some cross-class skills might come in handy. Listen and Spot are handy. UMD....?

When it comes to feats I'd like to get Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Elusive Target. As mentioned above I've thought Improved Weapon Familiarity would be handy to get proficiency with all three Cheeseblades. But then... The TWF tree costs 3 feats, so I wouldn't be able to get all of it anyway, which reduces the effectiveness of the thinblade. Hmmm. Maybe just the first TWF for the extra attack. Feats would be, in some order.

Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Elusive Target
Improved Weapon Familiarity
Two Weapon Fighting
Combat Expertise

The idea being that sometimes he'd TWF with the light and thin blades. And sometimes he'd THF with the courtblade. Hmmm, the more I think about this the less I'm sure it is worth it.

Whichever I think all his weapons should be +1 to +4 Speed Keen Wounding. Any interesting weapon abilities I've missed?

Hmmm, OK, so that was more of a continued ramble than an actual build. Let me know what you think.
Timlagor
03-31-06, 08:48 AM If you are getting a nice Int to damage then you want to get it as often as possible which means TWF.

TWF+ITWF+OTWF+PA would give you some nice damage.
Probably stick to the Rapiers (+1 average damage isn't worth the EWP)

The Courtblade is certainly a decent alternative but the Int becomes less important.

If youre charging a lot then Pounce woulg be nice but I don't know a good way to get it without six delectable levels of Wildrunner. Can we get something like Shocktrooper?

Combat expertise is obviously good. I would probably leave off the Spring Attack myself.
rilem
03-31-06, 09:45 AM I think splitting between TWF and THW styles is a waste when you have few feats to play with. TWF and Spring Attack are also mutually exclusive.

Which style you go for will rest ultimately on your stat allocation. If you can add both Int and a decent strength to damage — plus wounding — that is probably sufficient to warrant TWF. With a low strength, you're not likely to be much better off than a high-str barbarian going TWF, because you're still only adding one stat to damage.

Now with weakening/wounding, that changes the math but only at late level. So unless you've got a high strength and Int., save the TWF feat for 15th or 18th level.

Even then, I'd probably stick to the Elven Courtblade, as your strength will be boosted enough by then to get the extra boost out of the two-handed style. Use TWF with Armor Spikes, blade boots, whatever.
Arikas
03-31-06, 01:02 PM Stupid Question, do elves get courtblade/thinblade etc's as free proficiency as dwarfs get waraxes and what not as proficiency?
Timlagor
03-31-06, 01:49 PM Rilem: Strength plays no part in the TWF v THF decision.
(Unless you are using Uncanny Blow) you get 1.5xStr to damage either way.

Power attack and damage bonuses that apply equally to the off-hand are what make the difference. (and if you're not sure then THF is still better)

In this case TWF isn't going to be worthwhile until at least 18Int pre-items.

TWF with Armour Spikes is of course a great option. The question then becomes whether the 'off-hand' damage is greater than the cut in PA you take for the penalty by a sufficient margin to be worth the Feats -with Int on it it should be.

Arikas: No they don't
Arikas
03-31-06, 04:51 PM *snip*

Arikas: No they don't

well thats just stupid (imo)

why do other races get their own weapons and their own profeciences but elves get screwed? *shrugs*
Thanatos42
03-31-06, 05:20 PM Elves get proficiencies with quite a few weapons. The new weapons, like the elven courtblade, are designed to be special - not even all elves use them, hence no proficiency.

That being said, the feat racial weapon proficiency makes you proficient with all weapons with your race's name in them.
Arikas
03-31-06, 05:30 PM Elves get proficiencies with quite a few weapons. The new weapons, like the elven courtblade, are designed to be special - not even all elves use them, hence no proficiency.

That being said, the feat racial weapon proficiency makes you proficient with all weapons with your race's name in them.

thanks for the clarification *thumbs up*
LogicNinja
03-31-06, 09:54 PM I'd just like to point out the ultimate cheeseblade for the Elven Swashbuckler: the Elven Courtblade.

Finesseable... GREATSWORD? WTFmate!

But, yep, it means you can Power Attack with a 2:1 return (in fact, you can even get a lot of jump and Leap Attack a bunch--the charging combines well with your Acrobatic Charge for style), and the sword has an 18-20 crit range for your Weakening and Wounding Critical.

Sure, you give up a shield, but what the hell. Get an Animated shield... or potions of Shield... or something.

You get Wounding Critical at Swash 19, so it might be worth starting as a Rogue 1 and giving up the whole "pure-classing" idea for UMD.

Alternatively, dip Exotic Weapon Master 1 for some sort of useful trick... but you're not here to hear about dipping. :P

-You may want to get Improved Initiative, or something like that--you're a dexer, but you do *not* get Uncanny Dodge; not being caught flatfooted is important.
Thanatos42
03-31-06, 10:34 PM The elven courtblade is a pretty cool weapon. And while you can power attack with a 1:2 ratio, it's not worth it for a swashbuckler for one simple reason: you only add Int 1x, while you add Str 1.5x (being a two-handed weapon).

If you want to power attack, you're much better off grabbing oversized two-weapon fighting and using 2 rapiers. Same crit range, but you'll be able to add full int damage to each blow. Since neither weapon is considered light, you can power attack your heart out and get 1:1 with each weapon (unlike if you were using a dagger in your off-hand). With more attacks, you also increase your chances of hitting a critical.
Timlagor
04-01-06, 09:56 AM ...and the number of criticals you can land.

Taking Rogue1 would be a bad idea anyway because you want to get to Swash 14 and 19 asap and actually get to play with them before you hit 20. You could take it at 20th level I suppose...
ninjarabbit
04-01-06, 12:33 PM If you want to use a elven thinblade then a one level dip into exotic weapon master might not be a bad idea for uncanny blow so you can add 2x your str modifier in addition to your int modifier to damage.

However if you are set on being a swashbuckler 20 then I'd recommend twf and picking a weapon to get improved critical with.
AngelLemmingThief
04-02-06, 09:20 AM Thanks for all the advice.

One thing I thought I should mention. I chose the er, light/thin blade over the rapier not just for the higher damage but also because you can wield it two-handed if you want for extra damage. Not that was a necessarily a sound judgement :)

I think I'm going to stay away from dips. I know there are some delicious ones out there but I want this baby to stay pure. Since he'll never be used it shouldn't matter :)

That all said I think I'm going to go with the trusty rapier. No extra feats needed. The feat freed up can go into ITWF or OTWF. I think I'm going to can the Elusive Target 'trick' too. It costs 3 feats and is pretty situational. Hmmm, featwise then perhaps...

TWF/ITWF/GTWF/OTWF
PA
Combat Expertise
Improved Disarm (tis very Swashbuckly)

Sticking with Fire Elf for now and with a generous 32 point build

Str 13 (for PA & OTWF)
Dex 16 + 2 (racial) + 6 (item)
Con 11 - 2 (racial, erk) + 1 (level)
Int 16 + 2 (racial) + 4 (levels) + 6 (item)
Wis 10
Cha 10 - 2 (racial) --- hmmm, not very Swashbuckly

Dex 24 will help with hitting and AC somewhat. And Int 28 gives a nice +9 to damage

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AngelLemmingThief 03-31-06, 08:37 AM	I don't know why but I thought I'd have a try at optimising a Swashbuckler 20. Maybe it is becauses no-one ever seems to take more than 3 level of Swash. Maybe it is because I really like the class, concept, & genre. Maybe I'm just dumb. I'm not sure where to go build-wise but I thought I'd break it down into individual steps. Skills Swashies get a nice range of skills including movement based skills such as climb, jump, and tumble which are essential for swashbuckling maneuevres. They also get a few social skills such as bluff and sense motive. They could go the feinting route. I figure without multi-classing they won't benefit hugely from feinting though. They also get balance which may come in handy later. They get a mediocre 4 skill points per level. Not enough for a skill monkey but hopefully enough for our needs (when these needs are actually decided). BAB Full BAB. Handy. Implies an in your face warrior type (at least to me). Good for the iterative attacks, also good for use with combat expertise and power attack. HD d10 hit die, again helpful for a melee sort. Good save Fort. Worth pointing out as I always think of them as a reflexy type class. They aren't, but see Grace later (oo-er matron) Armour and weapons Simple, martial, and light. So the traditional rapier is fine but I might consider other weapons later. We'll want probably some mithral medium armour, or some other suitably buff light armour. And now for the abilities. Free Weapon Finesse So Dex over Str it is. Also worth watching out for extra sassy finessable weapons like the elven ___blades for example. Grace Brings the Ref save up to be medium (between good and poor). One of the reasons not to wear too heavy armour. Worth noting that although Swashies are not proficient with shields their abilities don't prevent their use. Insightful Strike One of the rarer abilities this might need some introduction... oh who am I kidding :) So Dex was good, and now so is Int. Doesn't work against constructs etc, but then constructs probably can't swing on a chandeliers. Also worth pointing out that this works with light weapons and those that are finessable (cough elven courtblade 2handed finesse cheese) Dodge bonus At little titbit, a nice +4 dodge bonus that stacks nicely. It was this ability that got me thinking. This is open to interpretation but I think being able to add a second dodge target when combining this ability with the Dodge feat allows a second target on Elusive Target's Diverting Defense, which if allowed is kind of nice. Acrobatic charge/Acrobatic skill mastery I'm combining these two into one section. Basically we can charge through rough terrain (swinging happily on chandeliers on the way) and we can take 10 in doing so. I think this is where the build will have to come into its own. What we need I think is an item, probably custom, though I'm not overly familiar with magic items and the item may already exist. This item basically needs to create a difficult terrain. What I am thinking is if you can create small walls, and/or distribute caltrops or marbles, and/or hang chandeliers from the sky you'll create an environment where the swashbuckler can move more efficiently than anyone else (other than thief-acrobats, exemplars, high-level rogues, skill monkeys, fliers, teleporters, ...). OK, OK, it is thin but I think this is where the niche is. Give a swashbuckler a busy environment and they should be able to use it their advantage. Grease would be fun too. Let me know if this actually viable or not. Slippery mind Nice to have, not sure what else to say about this. I don't think there are any feats (at least pre-epic) this qualifies for but still, it is nice to have. Goes some way to making up for the poor will save. Weakening/Wounding critical Yeah baby, weakening and wounding fun. I'm not sure how often this will be effective at 20th level but good none the less. We have a big choice of the Keen weapon enhancement or the Improved Critical feat to improve our chances of this kicking off. I'm going to go with Keen. Combine with Wounding for more con damage loving. That's the abilities now to attempt some kind of build. Hmmm, well. I think I want an elf for a dex bonus and cheaper access to the elven cheeseblades. Fire elf seems to be the best bet without LA. Dex and Int bonuses, sadly Cha and Con penalties. But +1 AC, to hit, damage, and skill points per level seems good to me. Statwise I guess they'd line up something like Dex, Int, Con, Str, Wis/Cha. My point buy is rusty but it would be nice to have 16 Dex and Int, with a half-decent Con & Str. If not, well there's always magic. Given a 16 Int plus 2 racial gives up to 8 skills to potentially max. I'd be tempted to max Jump, Tumble and spread the rest. They only have 12 skills anyway including Profession and Craft. Some cross-class skills might come in handy. Listen and Spot are handy. UMD....? When it comes to feats I'd like to get Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Elusive Target. As mentioned above I've thought Improved Weapon Familiarity would be handy to get proficiency with all three Cheeseblades. But then... The TWF tree costs 3 feats, so I wouldn't be able to get all of it anyway, which reduces the effectiveness of the thinblade. Hmmm. Maybe just the first TWF for the extra attack. Feats would be, in some order. Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Elusive Target Improved Weapon Familiarity Two Weapon Fighting Combat Expertise The idea being that sometimes he'd TWF with the light and thin blades. And sometimes he'd THF with the courtblade. Hmmm, the more I think about this the less I'm sure it is worth it. Whichever I think all his weapons should be +1 to +4 Speed Keen Wounding. Any interesting weapon abilities I've missed? Hmmm, OK, so that was more of a continued ramble than an actual build. Let me know what you think.
Timlagor 03-31-06, 08:48 AM	If you are getting a nice Int to damage then you want to get it as often as possible which means TWF. TWF+ITWF+OTWF+PA would give you some nice damage. Probably stick to the Rapiers (+1 average damage isn't worth the EWP) The Courtblade is certainly a decent alternative but the Int becomes less important. If youre charging a lot then Pounce woulg be nice but I don't know a good way to get it without six delectable levels of Wildrunner. Can we get something like Shocktrooper? Combat expertise is obviously good. I would probably leave off the Spring Attack myself.
rilem 03-31-06, 09:45 AM	I think splitting between TWF and THW styles is a waste when you have few feats to play with. TWF and Spring Attack are also mutually exclusive. Which style you go for will rest ultimately on your stat allocation. If you can add both Int and a decent strength to damage — plus wounding — that is probably sufficient to warrant TWF. With a low strength, you're not likely to be much better off than a high-str barbarian going TWF, because you're still only adding one stat to damage. Now with weakening/wounding, that changes the math but only at late level. So unless you've got a high strength and Int., save the TWF feat for 15th or 18th level. Even then, I'd probably stick to the Elven Courtblade, as your strength will be boosted enough by then to get the extra boost out of the two-handed style. Use TWF with Armor Spikes, blade boots, whatever.
Arikas 03-31-06, 01:02 PM	Stupid Question, do elves get courtblade/thinblade etc's as free proficiency as dwarfs get waraxes and what not as proficiency?
Timlagor 03-31-06, 01:49 PM	Rilem: Strength plays no part in the TWF v THF decision. (Unless you are using Uncanny Blow) you get 1.5xStr to damage either way. Power attack and damage bonuses that apply equally to the off-hand are what make the difference. (and if you're not sure then THF is still better) In this case TWF isn't going to be worthwhile until at least 18Int pre-items. TWF with Armour Spikes is of course a great option. The question then becomes whether the 'off-hand' damage is greater than the cut in PA you take for the penalty by a sufficient margin to be worth the Feats -with Int on it it should be. Arikas: No they don't
Arikas 03-31-06, 04:51 PM	snip Arikas: No they don't well thats just stupid (imo) why do other races get their own weapons and their own profeciences but elves get screwed? shrugs
Thanatos42 03-31-06, 05:20 PM	Elves get proficiencies with quite a few weapons. The new weapons, like the elven courtblade, are designed to be special - not even all elves use them, hence no proficiency. That being said, the feat racial weapon proficiency makes you proficient with all weapons with your race's name in them.
Arikas 03-31-06, 05:30 PM	Elves get proficiencies with quite a few weapons. The new weapons, like the elven courtblade, are designed to be special - not even all elves use them, hence no proficiency. That being said, the feat racial weapon proficiency makes you proficient with all weapons with your race's name in them. thanks for the clarification thumbs up
LogicNinja 03-31-06, 09:54 PM	I'd just like to point out the ultimate cheeseblade for the Elven Swashbuckler: the Elven Courtblade. Finesseable... GREATSWORD? WTFmate! But, yep, it means you can Power Attack with a 2:1 return (in fact, you can even get a lot of jump and Leap Attack a bunch--the charging combines well with your Acrobatic Charge for style), and the sword has an 18-20 crit range for your Weakening and Wounding Critical. Sure, you give up a shield, but what the hell. Get an Animated shield... or potions of Shield... or something. You get Wounding Critical at Swash 19, so it might be worth starting as a Rogue 1 and giving up the whole "pure-classing" idea for UMD. Alternatively, dip Exotic Weapon Master 1 for some sort of useful trick... but you're not here to hear about dipping. :P -You may want to get Improved Initiative, or something like that--you're a dexer, but you do not get Uncanny Dodge; not being caught flatfooted is important.
Thanatos42 03-31-06, 10:34 PM	The elven courtblade is a pretty cool weapon. And while you can power attack with a 1:2 ratio, it's not worth it for a swashbuckler for one simple reason: you only add Int 1x, while you add Str 1.5x (being a two-handed weapon). If you want to power attack, you're much better off grabbing oversized two-weapon fighting and using 2 rapiers. Same crit range, but you'll be able to add full int damage to each blow. Since neither weapon is considered light, you can power attack your heart out and get 1:1 with each weapon (unlike if you were using a dagger in your off-hand). With more attacks, you also increase your chances of hitting a critical.
Timlagor 04-01-06, 09:56 AM	...and the number of criticals you can land. Taking Rogue1 would be a bad idea anyway because you want to get to Swash 14 and 19 asap and actually get to play with them before you hit 20. You could take it at 20th level I suppose...
ninjarabbit 04-01-06, 12:33 PM	If you want to use a elven thinblade then a one level dip into exotic weapon master might not be a bad idea for uncanny blow so you can add 2x your str modifier in addition to your int modifier to damage. However if you are set on being a swashbuckler 20 then I'd recommend twf and picking a weapon to get improved critical with.
AngelLemmingThief 04-02-06, 09:20 AM	Thanks for all the advice. One thing I thought I should mention. I chose the er, light/thin blade over the rapier not just for the higher damage but also because you can wield it two-handed if you want for extra damage. Not that was a necessarily a sound judgement :) I think I'm going to stay away from dips. I know there are some delicious ones out there but I want this baby to stay pure. Since he'll never be used it shouldn't matter :) That all said I think I'm going to go with the trusty rapier. No extra feats needed. The feat freed up can go into ITWF or OTWF. I think I'm going to can the Elusive Target 'trick' too. It costs 3 feats and is pretty situational. Hmmm, featwise then perhaps... TWF/ITWF/GTWF/OTWF PA Combat Expertise Improved Disarm (tis very Swashbuckly) Sticking with Fire Elf for now and with a generous 32 point build Str 13 (for PA & OTWF) Dex 16 + 2 (racial) + 6 (item) Con 11 - 2 (racial, erk) + 1 (level) Int 16 + 2 (racial) + 4 (levels) + 6 (item) Wis 10 Cha 10 - 2 (racial) --- hmmm, not very Swashbuckly Dex 24 will help with hitting and AC somewhat. And Int 28 gives a nice +9 to damage