Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lilt 06-08-04, 12:43 PM	OK. I'm trying to think-up an effective build for an Ur Priest for an evil campaign I'm going to be playing in soon. The characters should be starting somewhere around ECLs 4-6. IE: the character may not be an Ur Priest yet, but I want something effective to start-off with. My thoughts on the matter are: It's tempting to go some form of arcaine spellcaster so that my spell focus (evil) would be of some use. It also leaves the prospect open of some kind of sick Mystic Theurge/Ur Priest combo. Charisma could be important, because I might be able to get some interesting Divine feats. Bard looks good as it gets all of the relevant skills, Savage bard looks even better as it gets good fortitude saves too. Wisdom is important for the Ur Priest. If I max it completely, I could be looking at 9th level spells at 14th level if I managed to get it up to 28. Thits means a level of Monk could give me an AC boost and some better saves, but I'd need a class with knowledge (the planes), Bluff, and Spellcraft. I'm looking at a build something like: Bard 1 (Iron Will) Monk 1 Bard 2 (Spell Focus (Evil)) Bard 3 Bard 4 Ur Priest 1 (Practiced Spellcaster (Ur Priest)) Going human would give me an extra feat at level 1, any ideas?
big bear 06-08-04, 01:12 PM	I'm looking at a similar situation for an upcoming campaign but I wonder on your build. The monk idea is nice, but you will only have 4 levels of spell caster. That gives you +2 levels to your spellcasting ability and your spells are weak. Effectively you get 9th level spells at 15 instead of 18 (correct) but you lose so much more.
phoenixnemo 06-08-04, 01:17 PM	1-Wiz1-iron will/spell focus (evil) 2-Wiz2 3-Wiz3-ability focus (spell craft) if you go Acm 4-Wiz4 5-MsH1-skill focus (diplomacy)-(minor aura-determined caster) 6-UrP1-spell focus (???) if you go Acm 7-UrP2 8-MyT1 9-MyT2-spell focus (???) if you go Acm 10-MyT3 11-MyT4 12-MyT5-craft woundrous items 13-MyT6 14-MyT7 15-MyT8-improved toughness 16-wiz5-maximize spell 17-AcM1 or Wiz6 18-Acm2 or Wiz7-??? 19-Acm3 or Wiz8 20-Acm4 or Wiz9 wiz caster level 17- 17wiz level spellcasting (9th level spells) arcane UrP caster level 18-10UrP level spellcasting (9th level spells) divine allignement any EVIL wiz-wizard (PHB) Msh-Marshal (MHB) UrP-Ur priest (CD) MyT-mystic theurge (DMG) Acm-archmage (DMG) try this for major spellcasting. :D
jedrious 06-08-04, 01:18 PM	um how are you alternating bard and monk levels?
Lilt 06-08-04, 01:31 PM	um how are you alternating bard and monk levels? By changing allignment like a b***h :D
Lilt 06-08-04, 02:24 PM	Hmm. I'm a bit confused as to how the character gets UrP caster level 18... Surely it would only be 10? Very impressive build still. I'm tempted to use divine feats, so I'll probably be picking those feats rather than all the stuff required for Archmage... What would happen if you tried to take extra mystic theurge levels putting your spells ur priest beyond 10th level?
guarnasco 06-08-04, 02:31 PM	Lilt, he just adds 1/2 his caster levels in wiz to his caster level of ur priest, as the Book says... if u can tolerate a 3 stats dependency (needs wis 19, int 19 and cha as high as u colud manage) i will go for divine metamagic alot..........
Tekara 06-08-04, 03:33 PM	Originally posted by Lilt What would happen if you tried to take extra mystic theurge levels putting your spells ur priest beyond 10th level? He would cast spells at one level higher but would gain no additional spells. Very much like what would happen if you went into epic levels with that PrC.
Lilt 06-08-04, 03:36 PM	Hmm. Any ideas for a good 32-point BP attribute set? Also: What other races might do this well? What about if the rules for buying off LA were used?
ShadowDreamer 06-08-04, 04:53 PM	changes the build a little, but would sorc be better than wiz? then you just ave 2 main stats, Wis for ur priest, and cha for sorc/divine turning based feats/marshals aura edit: for races check out the Sharn from MoF. Sure you are 2 caster levels back, and the cleric caster levels wont mean much if you go Ur priest, but +8 or 10 to every stat, extra actions every round, hex portals, SR, regen 6 arms and more are deffinitly worth the 2 levels i feel could do Sharn (9)/Marshal 1/Ur 2/MT 8 i belive to get sorc caster 17 and 18 Ur priest, plus the marshl's Determined caster aura... works better in epic though so you can get 9th level in both sorc and Ur ;)
widow 06-09-04, 12:25 AM	If you can play a sharn, I would not worry about ur-priest. Just go 10MT and 1 True necromancer and you are set. Also if you are going to try and stick with your monk/bard build the OA monk can get iron will as a bonus feat. That will free up another feat slot. Be warned about divine metamagic, it is official that you need to have the feat before you can take divine metamagic.
ShadowDreamer 06-09-04, 12:31 AM	yeah, you dont really need ur preist, but its kinda fun to have ;) anyway, yeah, sharn with the level buy back can be pretty sick
Lilt 06-09-04, 06:12 AM	I know how sick sharn would be. As we're startiong at around level 5 though, and the campaign will be an evil campaign, I don't think it'd be appropriate. Sorc might be better, but then I could never get 9th level arcaine spells.
Lilt 06-09-04, 07:35 PM	Update: We'll be starting the evil campaign at 6th level and have been given full reign to optimise our characters as much as we want under the 3.5 rules. AFAIK the shapeshifter PrC is disallowed, but anything else (apart from stuff that has been superceded under 3.5) is fair game. I do like the idea of the Ur Priest, but I have also been advised to look at the book of vile darkness for some powerful evil ideas. As I don't have the book of vile darness, I'm a bit at a loss... Could someone direct me to which bits of it are choicest? I'm not wanting full class descriptions, the GM does have a copy of the book, I'd just like to know if there's anything there that really stands out.
wtfpwned 06-09-04, 11:12 PM	I only built one ur priest. But I THINK the progression went something along the lines of. Ftr Wiz Wiz Wiz Wiz Ur-Priest 1 MT 7 7 Incantatrix. That Gave me at lvl 20, 18 Wiz caster levels. Lvl 9 Cleric spells at a crap caster level. Improved once with an ioun stone. And this was 3.0 where incantantrix got imp metamagic as well. Possibly the levels of incantatrix were droped for just 5 or 6 Prc dips like mystic wanderer, blood magus for a free uber epic feat. And other stuff along those lines.
horndgod 06-09-04, 11:29 PM	Originally posted by Lilt I'm a bit at a loss... Could someone direct me to which bits of it are choicest? I'm not wanting full class descriptions, the GM does have a copy of the book, I'd just like to know if there's anything there that really stands out. The Disciple of Dispater is a fairly nice PrC. Full BAB progression, all good saves, d10 HD, relatively easy to qualify for, and good class abilities. As well, a DoD with a level of Rogue can fill the trap monkey slot (Search and Disable Device are class skills, although Open Locks is not). They have a good skill list, and good skill points per level. Requires 13 Str and Int, but Con is your ability of choice.
sparkster4242 06-10-04, 01:18 AM	wtfpwned: are you spending a feat to get your bluff ranks up high enough? thats the only way i know of for Fighter/Wizard to work as a UP prefix. phoenix: i havent looked at MiniHB, does Marshall have Bluff as a class skill? also, your UP caster-level calculations are a bit off. the UP only gets the 1/2-level boost from other spellcasting class-levels, not caster-levels. Your build would have either 2 (UP) + 8 (MT) + 2 (Wiz 5/2) = 12, or 1 + 8 + 4 (Wiz 9/2) = 14 ... Acm and MT are not spellcasting classes, so UP doesnt get the extra boost from them. lilt: bard/UP/MT sounds interesting ... ill have to look into that. it may sound a little odd, but Cleric 1/Wizard 4 makes a pretty decent prefix for UP. in most Wiz/UP builds, those d4's kinda suck, so a maxed-out d8 for hp at 1st-level is nice. weapon/armor/shield proficiency can be helpful, good Fort-save is a must for UP, there is lots of skill crossover, and with the Trickery domain you can even get Bluff as a class skill without spending a precious feat. Losing your cleric-spellcasting is a minor issue, really -- it was only 1 level, after all, and _that_ gets replaced as soon as you hit UP. monk is also a decent prefex, as heavily front-loaded as it is, but it still doesnt net you Bluff as a class skill. Ranger is another decent 1st-level, that BAB may come in handy later on. in 3.5, that good reflex save is nice too. now that i think of it, Barbarian is about as good as Ranger; it gives you fast movement and rage 1/day... hmm, i havent look at it, but if Savage Bard can get you Bluff and a good Fort save, that might be a good choice also. if nothing else, you can use wands and such from yet another spell-list :p
phoenixnemo 06-10-04, 08:37 AM	phoenix: i havent looked at MiniHB, does Marshall have Bluff as a class skill? yes, that's why I put it there.:D archmage and MT ARE spell casting classes, since they both give: "+1 level of existing spellcasting class". so the level of the other spell casting classes add as I calculated. either if you consider the "other spellcasting class" the WIZ or the MT and ARCHMAGE.
Lilt 06-10-04, 08:43 AM	Although a MT build would be nice, I'm very tempted by the higher level UP abilities. The Divine spell Resistance seems fairly poor, but the Siphon Spell Power and Steal Spell-Like Ability powers seem fairly sweet, especially considering the sickness that is Planar Binding + Efreeti, allowing me to grant 3 wishes per day to non-genies... Hey look, I'm a non-genie :D The Savage Bard option is interesting. Ideally I want something With abilities that aren't going to be disrupted significantly by taking many levels of Ur Priest. It's also true that going straight bard is nice, but it limits my choice of weapons slightly. Cleric may be fruitful... By taking the domains of Knowledge and Trickery for the extra class skills, or War and Trickery for an extra weapon proficiency and relying on wizard levels to fill the rest of the required skills and shell for a coupple of cross-class Bluff ranks.
Lilt 06-10-04, 12:12 PM	What are people's thoughts of the Feral Template from Savage Species? I'm thinking of going Feral Human, Savage Bard, buying-off the +1 LA for a meager 2000xp... (BTW: I was just told that we're using *36* point buy rather than 32 as I previously though)
Thannin 06-10-04, 09:38 PM	My favorite has to be the Fallen half celestial (the +2 LA one) which you buy back later, elf. Sorc 4/Monk 2/Seeker of misty isles 1/Ur priest 2/Contemplative 1/MT 5/havok mage 5 sorc Caster level is only 12 Ur priest Caster level is 18(22 with karmic beads,and the divine feats that boost caster level). Shapechange into Mr. Nasty Solar Angel and cast and used full attacks of ranged weapons. My favorite is earthquake and six bow attacks each round...Food for thought. You can get Shapechange at level 14 via contemplative(animal domain)
Lilt 06-11-04, 03:49 AM	Hmm... Fallen half celestial sounds interesting. Is that just a half celestial with an evil allignment or is it something specific from a book? Although the prospect of adding domains sounds good, I'm not sure how it would work. Would the character just add the spells to his spell list or would they get an extra +1 per day from a domain? Doesn't shapechange (when granted by the animal domain) only let you transform into animal forms? And what order does that build go in? I'm assuming it's out of order as Seeker of misty isles needs you to be able to cast divine spells. Also, is Havoc Mage actually worth it? It just never struck me as being all that good. I suppose I am planning on going the persistant buff route. My current build is: Feral Human (+1 LA) Savage Bard 5 Ur Priest 2 MT 8, I'm now considering putting Contemplative in there for the domain. I'm looking at Persistant Divine Power at 9th level, Persistant Divine Favour and Righteious Might at 12th level
TexasFriedCriminal 06-11-04, 03:55 AM	If a Ur-Priest gets a domain, he gets to cast the domain spells as one of his spells known, but only one domain spell per spell level per day. Says so in complete divine.
Lilt 06-11-04, 10:24 AM	I just had an idea: My character is going to have an insanely high will save. He has many levels in classes with high will saves, an excessively high wisdom, and the iron will feat. Why don't I take the Weak Willed Flaw (from Unearthed Arcana) to give me an extra feat? That way I could take Extend Spell at 1st level, Persistant spell at 3rd level, and Persistant Metamagic at 6th level. Sound Good? Actually: Scratch that, I won't have the ability to turn/rebuke until 7th level so, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I can take divine Metamagic at 6th level. What other feats would be good for my character?
Lilt 06-14-04, 10:50 AM	Hmm. We had a first test-session but, as it was a test session, we're allowed to change our characters based on what happened. As I expected, my character wasn't all that powerful yet. I went as a 35-year-old (middle-aged for +1 to mental and -1 to physical) feral human, buying-off the +1 LA with 2000xp at 3rd level. My stats were: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 18 HP: 23 AC: 21 I went with Savage Bard 5 and the feats Iron Will, Spell Focus (Evil) and Extend Spell. The main problems I had were my low AC, combined with my low HP. In-fact I almost went down only to be saved by my fast healing from feral. The main reason I went with a low constitution was that I was thinking of becoming a Lich at some point so that the D12s could replace my D6 and D4 hit dice. IE: there would be no point in having a good con if I did that as when I became undead my con would disappear. I'm looking for a good way to put my AC up. I presently have a mithril breastplate which I didn't enchant as I was planning on using Magic Vestiment on it. Assuming I trade that in I have about 12k to spend on Armor and protective items. Any ideas? I want to keep the armor light so that I don't have any problems casting bardic spells, but I don't have much dex to speak of (I'll be cat's graceing myself at some point, and Persistant Greater Visage of the Deity-ing myself once I hit 14th level) so my AC sucks right now. The characters are fairly malleable at the moment, but I'd like to keep the Feral template which rules-out Wizard due to the int hit. Any ideas?
catharz 06-14-04, 01:32 PM	Two builds: Bard 5/Ur priest 5/Contemplative 2/Nar demonbinder 1/Mystic theurge 8, with the Bloodline of evil feat (huge caster level). Bard 5/Ur priest 2/Geomancer 5/Nar demonbinder 1/Mystic theurge 2, then Geomancer 6-10 to finish things up. Just a thought.
Lilt 06-14-04, 03:03 PM	Nice, where are the Bloodline of Evil feat and Nar Demonbinder PrCs from?
Blade2718 06-14-04, 03:46 PM	Nar Demonbinder is from Unapproachable East
catharz 06-14-04, 04:07 PM	Bloodline of evil is from Dragon 311. It is nice but not neccesary.
Thannin 06-15-04, 05:48 PM	Sorc 4/Monk 2/Seeker of misty isles 1/Ur priest 2/Contemplative 1/MT 5/havok mage 5 1 sorc-iron will,spell focus evil, extend spell, persistant spell(2 flaws and half human half celestial) 2 sorc 3 sorc- sudden extend 4 sorc 5 monk-monk feat 6 ur priest- divine metamagic 7 ur priest 8 MT 9 MT-extra domain(minatures handbook) 10 MT 11 contemplative 12 seeker-precise shot 13 mt 14 mt 15 havok mage- point blan k shot 16 havok mage 17 havok mage 18 havok mage-rapid shot 19 havok mage 20 monk havok mage allows you to take a full attack action AND cast a spell. here's how this dex maxed solar angel with 9th level divine spells looks. round 1: earthquake(8th level spell), full attack with bow round 2: fly up, one attack with bow, 1st-8th level spell(heal, etc) round 3+(cast a 9th level spell, or make a full attack action and cast a 8th or lower level spell. With this build havok mage really is that good...Reason havok mage isnt that great normally is because your main spellcasting class would hurt as far as caster level, except with ur priest(you'll see this a lot around here, being fairly new and all) you only need 9 levels of divine caster after 5 levels of non divine caster... Animal domain(shapechange), luck domain(luck reroll), travel domain(the ability), and other domains are incredible.
sparkster4242 09-01-04, 04:01 PM	phoenixnemo: archmage and MT ARE spell casting classes, since they both give: "+1 level of existing spellcasting class". nope. what is the caster-level of a MT 1? which spells are on his spell list? what ability score(s) is his casting based upon? how many spells per day does he have? arcane or divine? most importantly, where is the Spells: section in his class description? the official stance is that any class that has that section is a spellcaster, any class without it is not. this is why 'trickle-down' doesnt work: you cannot use a '+1 spellcaster level' class (like archmage) to boost MT and get +1 to two different classes. MT is not a spellcasting class, so '+1' classes cannot boost it. MT and Archmage are not spellcasting classes, so UP does not get its extra boost from them.
phoenixnemo 09-01-04, 08:12 PM	I never added archmage levels to MT... archmage levels add to wiz MT boosts ur priest and wiz arch boosts wiz check it out: 1-Wiz1-iron will/spell focus (evil) 2-Wiz2 3-Wiz3-ability focus (spell craft) if you go Acm 4-Wiz4 5-MsH1-skill focus (diplomacy)-(minor aura-determined caster) 6-UrP1-spell focus (???) if you go Acm 7-UrP2 8-MyT1 9-MyT2-spell focus (???) if you go Acm 10-MyT3 11-MyT4 12-MyT5-craft woundrous items 13-MyT6 14-MyT7 15-MyT8-improved toughness 16-wiz5-maximize spell 17-AcM1 or Wiz6 18-Acm2 or Wiz7-??? 19-Acm3 or Wiz8 20-Acm4 or Wiz9 wiz caster level 17- 17wiz level spellcasting (9th level spells) arcane UrP caster level 18-10UrP level spellcasting (9th level spells) divine allignement any EVIL wiz-wizard (PHB) Msh-Marshal (MHB) UrP-Ur priest (CD) MyT-mystic theurge (DMG) Acm-archmage (DMG)
sparkster4242 09-02-04, 05:39 AM	phoenixnemo: i never said you _did_. i _did_ say it cannot be done, and i gave the reason why that is the case. for that same reason, UP cannot gain extra half-levels from Archmage or MT. your UP caster-level should be: 2 (wiz 5/2) + 2 (UP) + 8 (MT) = 12 ^ | extra half-levels a UP's extra half-levels are based upon 'levels in other spellcasting classes'. your build has only 5 levels in another spellcasting class - Wizard.
Dracophile 09-02-04, 07:26 AM	Lilt, with that sick Wisdom score, seems like your AC problems would be solved by mixing in Monk. Monk/Ur Priest/Sacred Fist can be a powerful build.
Sang-Drax 09-02-04, 07:33 AM	Why bother taking fighter levels? Pale Master nets you +2 Fort saves at first level, and +1 spellcasting progression, though I don't quite remember if it has Bluff a class skill. If not, I would go Wiz 5/Pale Master 1/Shadow Adept 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/PrC 5 Shadow Adept has Bluff as a class skill, for that I'm pretty sure. The last 5 levels could be just about anything... maybe Dweomerkeeper (doest it get supernatural spell prior to level 6?), if you want to be *really* goddam powerful. edit: forget it, you gotta have access to the Magic domain.
sparkster4242 09-02-04, 03:55 PM	sang drax: hes taking fighter at first level for the 10 hit points, weapon/armor profs, fort save, and the bonus feat. it may not be the best choice, but its ok. PM does not have Bluff as a class skill. hmm, the way i read the Bonemail ability is that he can make armor out of bone, and that it provides a natural armor bonus instead of an armor bonus - this could be interesting, if your DM also allowed armor enhancements on it :p it may even be worth delaying your entry into UP by a level. the absolutely fastest way into UP that i have found (for standard races, anyway) is Wiz4/SW1 - The Swamp Witch is from Ultimate Prestige Classes v.2, by Mongoose publishing i believe. it is another +1 arcane class, with a good fort save. Of course, using this prefix would require spending a feat to gain Bluff as a class skill, but it would let you take UP as your 6th level, and it only costs you 2 caster-levels on the arcane side.
Norad 09-02-04, 04:46 PM	Hexblade 3/Fighter 2 (Thug variant UA)/Ur-Priest 10/Hierophant 5 Race: Up to you really, but I would probably use Human to get there the quickest, Aasimar is a possibility also. Feats: 1st: Iron Will, Skill Knowledge (Knowledge: Arcana, Spellcraft) 3rd: Malign Spell Focus 4th: Power Attack 5th: Combat Expertise 6th: Practiced Caster (Divine) 9th: Divine Spell Power 12th: Extend Spell 15th: Persistent Spell 16th: Divine Reach 17th: Spell Power 18th: Spell Power, Divine Metamagic 19th: Spell Power 20th: Spell Power This guy ends up with with an effective caster level of 18th most of the time, but can easily pump himself up to effectively 22nd with Divine Spell Power. If you are thinking more along the lines of buffing yourself to be pimped out for melee you might go this way instead: 9th: Divine Metamagic 12th: Extend Spell 15th: Persistent Spell 16th: Spell-like Ability: Divine Power 17th: Metamagic Feat: Quicken Spell 18th: Spell-like Ability: Righteous Might, Quicken Spell-like ability: Divine Power 19th: Divine Reach 20th: Divine Reach
Lilt 09-14-04, 10:54 AM	Ok... An update: Sadly, my GM has ruled that Mystic Theurge is broken in the campaign layout we're going to be using (Lots of 1-offs with rest periods inbetween) and as-such isn't allowed. He has also disallowed Flaws. It's about a week before the game is due to start. Right now I'm still looking at going a feral-template human and taking some human paragon levels for the bonus feats, skill points, and ability points. I know that feral human paragon dosen't seem to quite go, but I think it's still legal. I'm also looking to get the Leadership feat at 6th level for some optimised follower fun (marshal followers make for great down-time activity boosters). I'm still contemplating going Savage Bard as it gives me the saves that I need, a few funky abilities, lets me use my high charisma. I'm not sure, however, how much of a point there is in going too deep into a spellcasting class when I'm not going to be advancing it much. It also restricts my use of armor heavier than light, which isn't ideal. My other ideas for classes to base the character on are: Psychic Warrior (High wisdom=many power points. Combine with human paragon for will saves and skills) Marshal (Make use of high Cha, Mix with human paragon for spellcraft skill) From the builds that other people have posted: Norad: What exactly is the Skill Knowledge feat? Sadly many of the above builds have been voided by my GM's ban on Mystic Theurge. He's probably not the first GM to do it, but it seems a bit silly of him to do it after we were told to make our characters as effective as possible.
RadicalTaoist 09-14-04, 01:50 PM	Although a MT build would be nice, I'm very tempted by the higher level UP abilities. The Divine spell Resistance seems fairly poor, but the Siphon Spell Power and Steal Spell-Like Ability powers seem fairly sweet, especially considering the sickness that is Planar Binding + Efreeti, allowing me to grant 3 wishes per day to non-genies... Hey look, I'm a non-genie :DBEST COMBO EVAR! Yeah, if you can't theurge go full UP. I'm also thinking that Ftr2/Wiz3/Geomancer 5 might do the trick for those other levels. Focus all your Geomancer extra levels towards Wizard and you can still cast every arcane spell you have access to in full armor. Lastly, dump stat Cha and take Extra Turning feats to power your Divine feats. Has anyone thought up an Ur-Priest/Nar Demonbinder combo?
Lilt 09-14-04, 04:42 PM	Hm. I just had a look at the Nar Demonbinder. It's definately a powerful PrC, but in the case of the Ur Priest it kindof slows the character's advancement. The great thing about the Ur Priest is that it gets its next level of spells every level. Nar Demonbinder interrupts this, giving the next level of spells every 2nd level. It would, of course, be possible to take Nar Demonbinder levels after the character reaches 10th level in the PrC, but by that point (15th level) 4th and 5th level spells don't mean as much and you wouldn't be able to complete the PrC before epic levels. Then-again, I am still discounting mystic theurge due to my GM's ban on it. I suppose it would be very powerful if it was allowed. It could be taken first at 10th level, with Mystic Theurge from levels 11-16 so you still get 9th level spells from UrP as other people are getting 8th. Oddly enough, as Nar Demonbinders never actually get 2nd level spells, I think you'd need 2nd level spellcasting from some other spellcasting class in your 1st 5 levels.
Lilt 09-14-04, 04:54 PM	What do people think of the idea of taking a few levels of Dragon Disciple after the UrP progression has completed? That'd counter what is (IMHO) the problem with the UrP PrC in that it only ever gets 1 9th level spell before bonuses.
pawsplay 09-14-04, 11:01 PM	I like Cleric (Domains: Trickery and Knowledge) up until you qualify for Ur-Priest. True, you don't get to keep your divine casting, or get arcane casting as a backup, but you do get: - rebuke/command undead - two good saves - all the class skills to qualify early - medium BAB So I'm digging Cleric 5/Ur-Priest 10/Entropomancer 5 which, with Practiced Caster, gets you a caster level of 16. Also, it just seems very badass. Benefits include rerolls and a nasty little shard of entropy (Su, ignores SR).
Norad 09-15-04, 03:26 PM	I was considering the following: Hexblade 3/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Ur-Priest 10/Fighter 1/Hierophant 3 Benefits: Arcane Resistance - Cha bonus to saves vs spells/spell-like abilities Divine Grace - nothing like doubling up Mettle +16 BAB Base Saves: Fort +12, Ref +5, Will +13 Practiced Caster, Divine Spell Power, Divine Metamagic are probably all fairly must-have feats for this build also. This build is also well situated for rolling into Epic levels as well, saves should be pretty ridiculous as well. As far as race, I would probably make him an Aasimar or a Deep Dwarf so you don't get the Cha penalty, I'm trying to get out of my "every build could be a Goliath" rut, but there I just mentioned them again...
Lilt 09-16-04, 10:04 AM	At first glance, that build is very nice... I especially like the doubling-up of divine grace and arcaine resistance with mettle. The one problem with the build, however, is that it dosen't get all the class skills I'd need. Specifically it's missing Knowledge(The Planes), plus I'd need to put my intelligence up to get enough skill points. True Optimisation Challenge: Find a way to get (and keep) the requirements for Ur Priest allong with Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, and Persistant Divine Metamagic by 5th level. there are two catches: No Flaws (Banned by GM) No Domains to get any of the required feats (they're lost as an ex-cleric)
Norad 09-16-04, 01:21 PM	True Optimisation Challenge: Find a way to get (and keep) the requirements for Ur Priest allong with Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, and Persistant Divine Metamagic by 5th level. there are two catches: No Flaws (Banned by GM) No Domains to get any of the required feats (they're lost as an ex-cleric) Race: Human Artificer(Eberron) 4/Monk(UA) 1 - Note: One of the Monk variants gets Iron Will at first level, don't remember offhand which one though. Feats: 1: Divine Metamagic/Spell Focus (Evil) 3: Extend Spell 4: Persistent Spell 5: Iron Will I hadn't really thought of using this route to qualify for Ur-Priest, it looks pretty good up front though. As far as Knowledge (Planes) goes, well, you might be able to find a Planar substitution level that would take care of that, but I'm not 100% on that. You might want to check out Human Paragon from UA also, that might do what you're looking to do also.
Lilt 09-16-04, 02:31 PM	Sadly, none of the UA Monk Variants get iron will... Was it from some other book, a dragon magazine, or something? As the ability to turn or rebuke undead needs to be in there too, I think at-least 1 level of cleric (or something) needs to be in there too. My current ponderings are something allong the lines of: I need 5 feats. I get 3. I need 2 bonus feats from somewhere, and to have the turn undead class feature. 1: Cloistered Cleric 1 (Knowledge domain free, trickery domain gives bluff, last domain pointless) 2: Something 1 3: Human Paragon 1 4: Human paragon 2 (Bonus Feat) 5: Human Paragon 3 I'm not sure what to do with the something class, but I need one feat out of it from Iron Will, Spell Focus (Evil), Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, and persistant divine metamagic. I could shuffle human paragon down to 2 levels if the 2nd level of something gives me the feat, but then Something would need high fort saves. Anyway... Just thinking in public...
Norad 09-16-04, 02:59 PM	Sadly, none of the UA Monk Variants get iron will... Was it from some other book, a dragon magazine, or something? As the ability to turn or rebuke undead needs to be in there too, I think at-least 1 level of cleric (or something) needs to be in there too. Ok, I see where you are going, and if Dragon magazine is an option for you then check out the issue with all the variant fighter types such as Bodyguard, Commander, etc. I know Bodyguard has Iron Will on their bonus feat list, in which case you can do this: Cloistered Cleric 1: Knowledge Domain, Trickery Domain, Travel Domain, Divine Metamagic, Spell Focus (Evil) Fighter(Bodyguard) 1: Iron Will (bonus) Fighter(Bodyguard) 2: Power Attack (bonus), Extend Spell Human Paragon 1 Human Paragon 2: Persistent Spell (bonus) Double check me on this one if you can, I don't have the Dragon Mag # for you unfortunately, but I am 100% certain Bodyguard gets Iron Will as a bonus feat. However, your reqs for this build are extremely tight when the simple fact is that you get Rebuke Undead at 2nd level Ur-Priest, but I think I understand the gimmick you are shooting for here.
Lilt 09-16-04, 05:50 PM	Yes, it does place very, very, tight resrictions on the character and it is somewhat cheesy. It essentially means is retrieving Persistant Divine Metamagic 2 levels sooner, only losing it at 6th level, whilst keeping leadership at level 6. Perhaps I shoudl go back to trying to both min and max? That Artificier build does look rather nice, but my current planned race (Feral Human) dosen't give me much intelligence (and makes no use of his high charisma). I like the Hexblade/Paladin's ability to shrug-off most save-based attacks, but I can't help but feel that he's 'ignoring' reflex saves. Perhaps 2 levels of Monk in-place of Paladin? That gives him Evasion, and increases his reflex and will saves by 3, although it does lower them by his +4-+6 cha bonus. Maybe just drop a level of hexblade for a level of monk for the nice saves whilst keeping both Divine Grace and Arcaine Resistance? Maybe a primarily marshal build could work? It has everything but spellcraft and puts my charisma to good use. I'm still thinking that a psionic build would be interesting. Psychic warrior 2/Human paragon 3 gets me 4th level manifestation, two fighter/psion bonus feats (one of which could be Iron Will if using the bodyguard feat list), any one other bonus feat, and a +2 bonus to any attribute (probably willpower). It dosen't use charisma but it really focuses on his willpower (which will be around 22 with the +2, and eventually reach the dizzy heights of 26 or 28 with enhanceing items). Does that seem a good build?