Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gopher 02-06-06, 11:48 PM	Does anyone have any ideas on how to make a weapon thrower effective? I've looked into Master Thrower, and I like the tripping and palm throw special abilities. I've also considered taking the feat that allows you to throw normal weapons with no penalty, and feats like Quick Draw, Point Blank, and Rapid Shot. These all seem workable in most ways, but I'm running into one big problem: how do you get around the fact that most of the weapons you throw are probably mundane? At low levels this is no problem, but at higher levels magical weapons are a must. I'm certainly not going to be able to get 15 +3 daggers to throw. This gives a thrower a big disadvantage over an archer, who can simply enchant his bow. Any ideas or effective builds? I don't want to break my DM here, just be on par or close to on par with an archer. EDIT: Sorry, I guess I should have included what books I have so people know what I can work with. Not to say I wouldn't buy another book if I got attached enough to a concept, but my supply ATM is 3.5 core, Complete series, RotD, Arms and Equipment, BoED (although we've come to disallow most of it), Fiend Folio, MM3, DMGII, MoI, Expanded Psionics, and Weapons of Legacy. Probably a fairly limited selection in most people's view.
AramilWindwalker 02-06-06, 11:51 PM	that is a god question, my thrown weapons are only lightly enchnted but use the returning enchantment so I only need as many weapons as I can throw in a round either that or use shuriken and just buy a pack of 50 shuriken+1 for 2000 whenever you need them I dunno otherwise....
Zendu 02-06-06, 11:52 PM	errm returmninng?
Pinky's brain 02-07-06, 12:32 AM	The problem with returning is that it still costs a bundle and there is no quick-stow feat ... how exactly do you throw weapons when you have your hands full with so many daggers? The only real solution is the psionic power telekinetic boomerang from RotW.
SoulGamit 02-07-06, 12:38 AM	Boomerangs (there are a lot of cool boomerang only feats anyways) and/or telekinetic boomerang (power from races of the Wild)
jstorrie 02-07-06, 01:00 AM	A Stormlord (Complete Divine) 'auto-enchants' any javelin he throws.
Redeemer of Ogar 02-07-06, 01:00 AM	If you have a cooperative DM, ask about making Gloves of Enchanted Throwing, basically price them as you would a magical bow and allow them to enchant thrown weapons. ...don't even THINK about mentioning the strange things that happen when you throw the wizard's familiar though... :D
Khan the Destroyer 02-07-06, 01:03 AM	As SoulGamit suggested, Boomerangs may be the way to go. I'm not sure if you play Eberron, or have access to Eberron material, but their are a couple of options in there that lend themselves to a decent thrower. The required books would be Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, Races of Eberron, and the Eberron Campaign Setting (for the Talenta Boomerang statistics). Basically, you go into Master Thrower up to the 5th level and grab Weak Spot. This allows you to make your ranged attacks into touch attacks, but you do not apply strength to damage. Then, you grab Brutal Throw and Power Throw from Complete Adventurer. Power Throw allows you to Power Attack with a thrown weapon. Since they are ranged touch attacks, the penalty will not matter so much. But you can get up to a +20 bonus to damage. Out of Races of Eberron, we get Boomerang Daze and Boomerang Ricochet. With Boomerang Daze, any creature struck by your Talenta boomerang has to make a Fort save or be stunned for 1 round. With Ricochet, you can strike a secondary target after hitting your first. You can daze both of them if you have both feats. I can't remember who originally introduced this build. For some reason, I want to say RadicalTaoist, but I can't be sure. In other words, I may have missed something that makes the build more lethal. For now though, you can hit multiple targets, with ranged touch attacks, with power attack damage, that can daze them (and the save DC against the daze effect is 10+damage dealt).
Vikjunk 02-07-06, 01:53 AM	If you go with Khan the Destroyer Member advice with the Talenta Boomerang you also might want to pick up a level of Exotic Weapon Master to grab Close-Quarters Ranged Combat so that you don't have to worry about someone getting an AoO on you when you throw.
J-A-R-N-O 02-07-06, 03:27 AM	There is a wondrous item in one of the Forgotten realms books that gives every weapon you throw with the returning enchantment, IIRC. A set of bracers, I think. I'm At work so I can't check it out at the moment. Whisperknife from races of the wild is a nice halfling only thrower PrC, and coupling Master thrower with Invisible blade is a classic way of getting a better damage output. I played a Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Invisible blade 5/Master thrower 5 once in a quick campaign. He was the best damage dealer in the group. With two weapon fighting, palm throw, rapid shot, etc. he was able to throw a ridiculous amount of daggers a turn :D
Pinky's brain 02-07-06, 10:42 AM	Boomerangs don't help, they only return if they don't hit anything. Telekinetic boomerang is the only real solution. With returning you only end up with a dozen or so daggers materializing in your hand at once, with nowhere to put them.
Khazra Reborn 02-07-06, 12:00 PM	You all kind of ignored the stormlord solution and it seems to be the best so far, especillay as you could use the prc and be a cleric archer of sorts (persistant buffs). VoP and a sling works and slings technically count as thrown weapons IIRC>
Pinky's brain 02-07-06, 12:22 PM	The amount of levels you have to put in stormlord for some easily resisted elemental damage combined with the loss of palm throw hardly qualifies it as the best solution. Psychic warrior gets you feats (any master thrower build is feat starved) and telekinetic boomerang ... for the mundane damage master throwers, rather than sneak attack based ones, the class cannot be beat. I guess you could use a sling as a thrown weapon, but I don't think it would do much damage (halflings get a +1 racial bonus to attack with thrown weapons and slings, so Id say they are different).
Vikjunk 02-07-06, 04:17 PM	Boomerangs don't help, they only return if they don't hit anything. Telekinetic boomerang is the only real solution. With returning you only end up with a dozen or so daggers materializing in your hand at once, with nowhere to put them. With Power Throw with Weak Spot you don't really need any magic weapons to up the damage other then a few with ghost touch ones and something else for when you go up against something that is smaller then you, so you can have quite a few normal ones on you. And if you craft you own it wouldn't matter if you loose a few in combat. And with Two with One Blow and Boomerang Ricochet you can get three or four attacks off of one attack with a Talenta Boomerang (counts on how you read Boomerang Ricochet since your initial attack has the possibility to hit two targets when you use Two with One Blow), at admittedly that you need at least two opposites adjacent from each other. But yeah Telekinetic Boomerang would be nice to have but I feel it's not worth it to become a Psychic Warrior because of the lose of BAB and an extra attack. It would be worth it if you can convince you DM to let you get a custom item that is use activated item that grants it to your weapon when you throw it. Then it could be really fun adding Exit Wound to the Boomerang since it could be interesting to see how your DM will rule how Exit Wound, Two with One Blow, and Boomerang Ricochet would work together.
Gopher 02-07-06, 04:18 PM	Sorry, I should have posted what books I have access to. I've heard some fairly cool ideas, but unfortunately I don't have access to Faerun or Eberron books at this time, nor any Race book except RotD. I've edited the OP to include the selection of books I do have, any further help would be greatly appreciated.
Pinky's brain 02-07-06, 04:47 PM	Are you allowed to found your own legacy item?
Gopher 02-07-06, 04:52 PM	Don't know about that, what did you have in mind?
Pinky's brain 02-07-06, 05:12 PM	A shuriken thrower with an item which can cast greater magic weapon, twice per day would be the equivalent of a C-table ability (only at caster level 10 though, so a +2). Continuous compression/reduce-person would work well for you too, which would be the equivalent of a B-table ability.
SkaIsStillCool 02-07-06, 06:26 PM	Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver. Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes. Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb. You could change this item to fit your specific weapon needs. It came from this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=519482) thread on a similar topic.
Crash169 02-07-06, 06:36 PM	There is a pair of gloves in the Races of Faerun book that enchants whatever you throw with the returning property. They cost 10,000 gp, a decent price to pay if you ask me. Make sure you buy different metal types for your weapons so that you could overcome damage reduction. There are a few good ways to do decent damage as a thrower: Taking feats such as Power throw and Brutal throw or taking rogue levels for some sneak attack. I personally like combining Halfing paragon's Thrown weapon mastery with fighter weapon specialization. Add point blank shot and your doing +5 damage on every dagger thrown with palm throw. Take two weapon fighting, paired with those gloves of returning you could be throwing like 8 daggers a round. Sounds pretty effective if you ask me :P
Timlagor 02-07-06, 07:38 PM	I'm pretty sure there'a box somewhere that produces +1 shuriken. The way I'd do it is FULL BAB Master thrower: Strength 10 All the Dex you can sling with your halfing (or human if you need that extra Feat ..and it certainly helps) Feats: TWF ITWF GTWF Power Attack Power Throw (CV -power attack with thrown weapons) PBS (prereq) PS (prereq) WF (prereq) Far Shot Fighter4/Ranger2/Monk1/MT5 Ok not quite full BAB but you can now flurry the shuriken and that's worth the BAB hit since you will be using the following tricks: Palm Toss Two with one blow Weak Spot You can then Pick up Weapon Spec later. You don't need quickdraw as shuriken are ammunition. Make friends with a wizard for nice spells in batches of 50 -GMW will cover the magic needs if you do have such a friend. Of course this is predicated on being allowed to Power Throw on touch attacks that don't add strength bonus to damage which is rather dodgy imo. Otherwise you're pretty much stuck with a Rogue base and probably want IB too.
Seeker of Truth 02-07-06, 07:54 PM	The way I'd do it is FULL BAB Master thrower: Strength 10 <snip> Power Attack Power Throw (CV -power attack with thrown weapons) you don't qualify to take power attack without a str of 13 You also haven't taken brutal throw which is a pre-req for power throw.
Reinhart 02-07-06, 09:25 PM	Actually, you want at least eleven levels of monk, along with levels of exotic weapon master and master thrower. Whisper Knife might be good but I actually haven't read that one, I just know it's for halfing throwers. Anyway, since shuriken are exotic weapons you can use some of the tricks from exotic weapon master with them. Plus, they can be flurried, and drawn as a free action already. As ammunition, they are lost after they're thrown, but are relatively cheap. Monk 12/Master Thrower 5/Exotic Weapon Master 3 From Master Thrower take: 1. Palm Throw 2. Trip Shot 3. Deadeye Shot 4. Two with One Blow 5. Weak Spot From Exotic Weapon Master take: 1. Close-Quarters Ranged Combat 2. Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting 3. Ranged Disarm And for your feats take Weapon Focus (Shuriken), Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and the two weapon fighting tree. So even before you haste or use palm toss -3/-3/-3/-3/-3/-8/-8/-13/-13/-18! Throw in haste or some other supernatural extra attack with palm toss and you're firing at them with 22 shuriken in a full round attack! And they're all touch attacks. Now sadly that's just one damage each before enhancements or feats like point blank shot since you're probably a halfling and can't use your strength modifier for damage. Sounds sad but . . . with +1 flaming magical enhancements that's another +22+22d6 damage. That's not bad but . . . think about poison or wounding properties too. The fact that you go through 22 shuriken a round though will mean that this is a costly fighting style though.
Vikjunk 02-07-06, 09:51 PM	Monk 12/Master Thrower 5/Exotic Weapon Master 3 From Master Thrower take: 1. Palm Throw 2. Trip Shot 3. Deadeye Shot 4. Two with One Blow 5. Weak Spot You only get three thrown weapon tricks not five with Master Thrower. So it would be best to get Palm Throw, Two with One Blow, and Weak Spot. And it might not help Gopher since he doesn't have Planar Handbook or at least can't use it but there is a nice feat called Neraph Throw that that denies a creature their Dex to their AC for one attack against them that encounter. Really nasty with combined with Weak Spot.
Reinhart 02-07-06, 10:01 PM	Good catch. I don't think Neraph Throw is easy to justify though unless you actually are playing a planar game to encounter a Neraph or at least the plane of Limbo. But it's already a ranged touch attack, at least leave your enemies a fighting chance! Heheh.
Vikjunk 02-07-06, 10:38 PM	Good catch. I don't think Neraph Throw is easy to justify though unless you actually are playing a planar game to encounter a Neraph or at least the plane of Limbo. But it's already a ranged touch attack, at least leave your enemies a fighting chance! Heheh. Well you do need ranks in Knowledge (the planes) to get the feat, even if it isn't that many ranks. So you character would have most likely have heard about the Neraphim and their basic tactics. So the justification is that your character could have figured it out through trial and error. Like most combat feats it isn't so much about knowledge, even though there are likely tricks to making it easier to learn, but no matter how much knowledge you have of a weapon it will not help you use it better without practicing with it.