An end to the metapsionic blues! [Archive] - Wizards Community

An end to the metapsionic blues! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zemyla
05-31-05, 02:18 PM The Mobile Spellcasting feat (CV), altered with psionics-magic transparency to become Mobile Manifestation, would completely solve the problem of requiring a move action to refocus and being unable to move while manifesting altered powers.

You take the Psychic Meditation and Mobile Spellcasting feats. Then, you can make a Concentration check to manifest a power and move at the same time as a standard action, which leaves you with a move action to refocus. Best of all, this works with any psionic character.
carnivore
05-31-05, 07:19 PM nice catch Zemyla :clap:

:D
Megrim_Lord
05-31-05, 07:36 PM i love transparency...
Betrayer of Hope
05-31-05, 08:42 PM I don't think magic-psionics transparency works that way. The SRD specifically refers to magic items and spells affecting psionic items and powers (as well as SR/PR).

It doesn't say anything about feats becoming transparent. I can't see allowing this sort of feat transparency for the same reason why you can't simply transform Practiced Spellcaster into Practiced Manifester (which is a way broken feat). Psionics and magic are still different at certain important levels, even if they are transparent at others.

In short, it would be a house rule (if you can Mind Trick your DM) but it really can't be inferred from the rules (as written or not).
Shandrakor
05-31-05, 08:43 PM Brilliant! Bloody Brilliant!
catharz
05-31-05, 11:08 PM As far as I can tell, Mobile Spellcasting allows a character to split a move action to take effects before and after casting a spell. Because refocusing is a move-equivalent action, you might be able to start refocusing, cast a spell, and then finish refocusing.

It won't do you much good though: Even with two feats and a house-rule, you still only get a total of one move-equivalent action.

So you're stuck using Hustle or Schism to refocus, just like before.
DarknessEternal
06-01-05, 12:58 AM Transparency doesn't apply to feats like this; Precedent: Combat Manifestation.
catharz
06-01-05, 01:02 AM Transparency doesn't apply to feats like this; Precedent: Combat Manifestation.

Transparency doesn't apply to much of anything:
Psionics–Magic Transparency: Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.
When the rule about psionics–magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.
Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)
All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.
The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).
Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

That is it.
Tempest Stormwind
06-01-05, 02:32 AM Transparency doesn't apply to feats like this; Precedent: Combat Manifestation.
Heck, case in point: ANY METAPSIONIC FEAT.

Empower Spell: Empower effect, +2 spell levels.
Empower Power: Empower effect, +2 pp (+1 spell level), expend focus.

Transparency is only applied when powers and spells directly interact (or when resistances to them interact, i.e. spell resistance).

The OP therefore appears to be "Look at this houseruled feat which completely breaks an otherwise balanced class!"
djinni
06-01-05, 02:34 AM As far as I can tell, Mobile Spellcasting allows a character to split a move action to take effects before and after casting a spell. Because refocusing is a move-equivalent action, you might be able to start refocusing, cast a spell, and then finish refocusing.

It won't do you much good though: Even with two feats and a house-rule, you still only get a total of one move-equivalent action.
problem with your logic it the feat states that you cast the spell and move combined as a standard action.
so you a human spellcaster can move 30' cast his spell and then move 30 more feet...
with the transparency (regardless if it is RAW) if it works you would be able to use hustle to refocus with your move action pass your concentration check and manifest a power while moving into an advantagous position.
Tempest Stormwind
06-01-05, 02:45 AM The way I read it, you could do the following:

Standard Action: Move and Manifest (Concentration check).
Move action: Refocus.

No need for Hustle.

The problem is, transparency doesn't work that way. Thus, this feat is homebrew, and it is yet another example of when something relatively "simple and commonplace" for mages would terribly break the psionics system (the first is Practiced Spellcaster).
Gravmyr
06-01-05, 10:25 AM Can anyone tell me why practiced manifester would be so broken?
DarknessEternal
06-01-05, 10:25 AM Just because something exists for magic doesn't mean it must exist for psionics (due to cries of transparency or not). Likewise, not everything that exists for psionics exists for magic.

Transparency applies to psionic and magical effects. Not all of magic and all of psionics.
Tempest Stormwind
06-01-05, 10:43 AM Can anyone tell me why practiced manifester would be so broken?
The consensus on the psi boards is that, since only two powers scale freely with your manifester level (like mages) instead of with PP costs:
1) Practiced Manifester as a direct port of Practiced Spellcaster would be underpowered.
2) Practiced spellcaster with bonus PP to account for the augmentation mechanic would be messy and/or overpowered.

Finally, ACID TEST: Compare to the ONLY existing way to increase your manifester level without being a wilder -- the Overchannel feat, which peaks at +3, for 5d8 damage, at level 15. (No, orange ioun stones don't work either; see the transparency quote.)
carnivore
06-01-05, 11:19 AM i would allow it like this:

Practiced Manifester:prerequisite:4 ranks Psicraft.
Benifit : You may manifest Powers as if your manifester level were 4 levels higher in regards to all Variable numeric effects that rely on manifester level. This also affects your manifester level cap, allowing you to manifest powers with a cost as if your manifester level were 4 levels higher.
However this will not allow your manifester level to exceed your HD. This feat does not give additional power points.

it is not over powered or underpowered, in this form..........IMHO ;)

:D
Gravmyr
06-01-05, 11:29 AM There are a few problems with looking at it that way.
1. I don't know who is running these psionicists but I have never run out of pp.
2. Yes spells scale automatically, but looking through the powers a majority of them do unless they deal damage or add a bonus.
3. What builds rely on Practiced Spellcaster? Few damage slinger builds if I remember right they are mostly for the buffers or such.
4. How would they ever introduce new mechanics if you couldn't add anything that wasn't already available or had nothing comparable?
5. Overchannel has no prerequisite while Practiced Manifester would require 4 ranks of Psicraft while not a huge thing this does dictate where 4 of your skill points are going to go for some classes that is a huge investment.

But that isn't what we are here to talk about, though some points bleed both ways. They obviously feel that psionics are slightly underpowered when compared to spells or they would make the metapsionic feats cost the same as casting an augmented spell by making each level for the metamagic equal 2 pp for the metapsionic. Yes the magic transparency rule does not apply to feats but lets be honest, enough of the mechanics for magic and psionics are identical that a feat altered here or there is hardly going to make a psionicist or caster greatly overpowered when something similar already exists for the other side.
catharz
06-01-05, 03:34 PM problem with your logic it the feat states that you cast the spell and move combined as a standard action.
so you a human spellcaster can move 30' cast his spell and then move 30 more feet...
with the transparency (regardless if it is RAW) if it works you would be able to use hustle to refocus with your move action pass your concentration check and manifest a power while moving into an advantagous position.

OK, I re-read the feat and what you're saying kinda makes sense (and yes, I was wrong). With a houserule that the feat could be used with psionic powers, you could refocus and then move 30' while manifesting a power, or vice-versa.

But the fact still stands that Psi-Magic transparency does not go nearly as far as you seem to think it does.

The consensus on the psi boards is that, since only two powers scale freely with your manifester level (like mages) instead of with PP costs:
1) Practiced Manifester as a direct port of Practiced Spellcaster would be underpowered.
2) Practiced spellcaster with bonus PP to account for the augmentation mechanic would be messy and/or overpowered.

Finally, ACID TEST: Compare to the ONLY existing way to increase your manifester level without being a wilder -- the Overchannel feat, which peaks at +3, for 5d8 damage, at level 15. (No, orange ioun stones don't work either; see the transparency quote.)

The difference is that Practiced manifester would only add +4 if your manifester level was 4 (or more) less than your character level.

There aren't many spellcasting feats which will add +4 (or even +1) to your caster level above your character level.
RadicalTaoist
06-01-05, 08:56 PM I fear that Practiced Manifester would break all the psionic PrCs that are balanced by losing manifester levels. It's just too powerful in a system without free scaling.
catharz
06-01-05, 09:12 PM I fear that Practiced Manifester would break all the psionic PrCs that are balanced by losing manifester levels. It's just too powerful in a system without free scaling.

Isn't it less powerful in a system without free scaling?
lokkesmadr
06-01-05, 09:28 PM No, because in a system without free scaling the given effects are usually more potent on a case by case basis as a result. Being able to scale the effect higher than one should normally be able to is overpowering in a situation where the ability to scale effects is purposefully limited.
djinni
06-01-05, 09:31 PM [QUOTE=Tempest Stormwind]Standard Action: Move and Manifest (Concentration check).
Move action: Refocus.

No need for Hustle.[\QUOTE]
I didn't mean the power hustle I meatn the feat that allows you to refocus as a move action. since it is normally a full round action to refocus
Gravmyr
06-01-05, 10:21 PM Lets have a quick look at what this would actually do in the case of times when you would be loosing the 4 levels of manifeter. There are 3 main PrC's that you would truely care if you took the feat for, Thrallherd which would net you a whopping 2 levels, Psion Uncarnate which would net you the total bonus of 4, and the actual worst case for this Metamind which nets you the full 4 also. Taking it as a thrallherd is kinda a waste of a feat as I said it nets you only an additional 2 levels and the ones that scale with the most effect are those that cost at least 2pp more to manifest. The psion uncarnate it does help quite a bit with the 4 levels returned that are lost, you are looking at the most bonus being 4pp per spell without the addition of pp through standard level and the levels that this would net you the full bonus four levels nearly doubles your pp pool. The worst case is when you give it to the metamind at 10th level because of the unlimited pp ability but that is a balance issue in itself not a problem with the feat. By not gaining more pp yes you can scale your damage up a maximum of 4d6 or average 14 dmg on a few spells, but you are also making so they cast at least one less second level power per additional 14dmg. How many wizards or even sorcerers would be willing to take practiced spellcaster if it meant that they would have to sacrifice a second level spell every time they cast a spell to gain the benefit of PS without gaining any additional spells per day? I'm guessing very few.
catharz
06-01-05, 10:28 PM No, because in a system without free scaling the given effects are usually more potent on a case by case basis as a result. Being able to scale the effect higher than one should normally be able to is overpowering in a situation where the ability to scale effects is purposefully limited.

The fact that 'Practiced X' is limited to character level already keeps characters from scaling effects to higher than one normally should be able to.

There are 3 main PrC's that you would truely care if you took the feat for, Thrallherd which would net you a whopping 2 levels, Psion Uncarnate which would net you the total bonus of 4, and the actual worst case for this Metamind which nets you the full 4 also.

No, you take it for Warmind. Which nets a total +4 bonus to MLevel starting at PrCLevel 1.
Gravmyr
06-02-05, 02:18 AM OK assuming that you can take it with a PrC that grants you your first level in manifesting and you have four other levels in which you can gain the maximum bonus to ML you still hit the same problem as before with few PP to use to augment those powers, in this case, Warmind, you would have to have at least a +3 Wis Mod to be able to take the best advantage of the feat right off the bat. The other option is to take a psionic race and gain free points but that is a bit silly if you are not going to go full caster anyway though I suppose you could in order to gain a few more points for an otherwise suboptimal build. Either way you look at it you are investing quite a bit to get a relatively minor bonus to manifesting as compared to Practiced Spellcaster.
catharz
06-02-05, 03:09 AM OK assuming...[Blah Blah Blah]...compared to Practiced Spellcaster.

An X 5/Warmind 1 with a wisdom of 12 has 2 power points.
An X 5/Warmind 1 with a wisdom of 12 and "Practiced Manifester" has 4 power points (twice as many).

An X 5/Warmind 10 with a wisdom of 15 has 80 power points and can manifest a 2d6 (medium), 10-hour Claws of the Beast.
An X 5/Warmind 10 with a wisdom of 15 and "Practiced Manifester" has 85 power points and can manifest a 4d6, 15-hour Claws of the Beast.

Compare to Psychic Warrior:
A Psychic warrior 15 with a wisdom of 15 has 72 power points and can manifest a 4d6 (medium), 15-hour Claws of the Beast.

What does this demonstrate?
1) Secondary manifesters often have (roughly) as many PP as primary manifesters.
2) A Psychic Warrior 15 has a signifigant manifesting edge over an X 5/Warmind 10, while a Warmind with "Practiced Manifester" is roughly equal (more PP, fewer powers known).
Gravmyr
06-02-05, 03:41 AM The math appears to be slightly off though. A war mind 10/15 wis with the full +4 from PM would manifest the claws at 3d6 (m) for 14 hours and only have 80pp. At best the Warmind 10/15 wis/+4 PM would have 14 bonus pp, 84 pp total, as they are determined though manifester level not character level. You are assuming that it would affect your bonus PP which I'm not seeing why it would having reread the Practiced Spellcaster feat and it not affecting spells per day, I'm not sure why it would be allowed to affect power points per day.
catharz
06-02-05, 04:10 AM The math appears to be slightly off though. A war mind 10/15 wis with the full +4 from PM would manifest the claws at 3d6 (m) for 14 hours and only have 80pp. At best the Warmind 10/15 wis/+4 PM would have 14 bonus pp, 84 pp total, as they are determined though manifester level not character level. You are assuming that it would affect your bonus PP which I'm not seeing why it would having reread the Practiced Spellcaster feat and it not affecting spells per day, I'm not sure why it would be allowed to affect power points per day.

You're right, I was using +5 for some reason.

Anyway, bonus power points are specifically based on a manifester level vs. ability score matrix, unlike spellcasting (which is based on a max spell level vs. ability score matrix). So anything which increases manifester level will increase PP.
carnivore
06-02-05, 07:33 AM practiced manifester should not raise PP or powers Known............it should only raise the following:
manifester cap
manifester level for variable numeric effects related to manifester level
manifester level vs PR/SR

and it should not raise it beyond the HD or character level of the Character

:D
Gravmyr
06-02-05, 10:58 AM Actually it should increase with an increase manifester level but no where does it say that is does and if you would translate the feat into psionic terms then it would state that it does not affect your power points per day or powers known. Beyond that I'm not sure it would allow for more power point usage anyway as the last line would be converted to say, "It increases your manifester level only, which would help you penetrate power resistance and increase the duration and other effects of your powers." I suppose becuase the mechanic is not automatic scaling you could say that it would also include something about increased PP usage but the is all in how you write it.
Tempest Stormwind
06-02-05, 10:59 AM practiced manifester should not raise PP or powers Known............it should only raise the following:
manifester cap
manifester level for variable numeric effects related to manifester level
manifester level vs PR/SR

and it should not raise it beyond the HD or character level of the Character

:D
However, Practiced Manifester is a permanant adjustment to your numeric "manifester level" -- and this is the variable used in the bonus PP calculation, which is AbilityMod*ManifesterLevel/2. Any permanant change to ML will alter your bonus power points.
carnivore
06-02-05, 11:11 AM practiced manifester should ONLY affect the manifesting of powers...not getting new powers, not Gaining Power Points.....the same as Practiced Caster does not give additional spells known or spell slots, it only affects the Caster level when You CAST a spell.

thus Practiced Manifester should also only affect:

manifester cap
manifester level for variable numeric effects related to manifester level
manifester level vs PR/SR

and it should not raise it beyond the HD or character level of the Character

:D
Antendren
06-02-05, 12:00 PM manifester level for variable numeric effects related to manifester levelBonus PPs are a numeric effect related to manifester level. If you don't want the feat to affect them, then rephrase this.
carnivore
06-02-05, 12:07 PM ok, how about this:

Practiced Manifester:prerequisite:4 ranks Psicraft.
Benifit : You may manifest Powers as if your manifester level were 4 levels higher in regards to all Variable numeric effects that rely on manifester level when manifesting Powers. This also affects your manifester level cap, allowing you to manifest powers with a cost as if your manifester level were 4 levels higher. This also affects your Manifester level in regard to overcoming PR/SR.
However this will not allow your manifester level to exceed your HD. This feat does not give additional power points or Powers known, it only affects manifester level when Manifesting powers.

:D
Betrayer of Hope
06-02-05, 02:36 PM This is an excellent case in point as to why magic-psionics transparency doesn't extend to feats (and is actually quite narrow). There are some fundamental differences in the psionics/magic mechanics that don't fit together well.

This is a fun exercise, but any porting of Practiced Spellcaster or Mobile Spellcasting is going to be a house rule (and won't really impact builds here since it has no foundation in the RAW).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zemyla 05-31-05, 02:18 PM	The Mobile Spellcasting feat (CV), altered with psionics-magic transparency to become Mobile Manifestation, would completely solve the problem of requiring a move action to refocus and being unable to move while manifesting altered powers. You take the Psychic Meditation and Mobile Spellcasting feats. Then, you can make a Concentration check to manifest a power and move at the same time as a standard action, which leaves you with a move action to refocus. Best of all, this works with any psionic character.
carnivore 05-31-05, 07:19 PM	nice catch Zemyla :clap: :D
Megrim_Lord 05-31-05, 07:36 PM	i love transparency...
Betrayer of Hope 05-31-05, 08:42 PM	I don't think magic-psionics transparency works that way. The SRD specifically refers to magic items and spells affecting psionic items and powers (as well as SR/PR). It doesn't say anything about feats becoming transparent. I can't see allowing this sort of feat transparency for the same reason why you can't simply transform Practiced Spellcaster into Practiced Manifester (which is a way broken feat). Psionics and magic are still different at certain important levels, even if they are transparent at others. In short, it would be a house rule (if you can Mind Trick your DM) but it really can't be inferred from the rules (as written or not).
Shandrakor 05-31-05, 08:43 PM	Brilliant! Bloody Brilliant!
catharz 05-31-05, 11:08 PM	As far as I can tell, Mobile Spellcasting allows a character to split a move action to take effects before and after casting a spell. Because refocusing is a move-equivalent action, you might be able to start refocusing, cast a spell, and then finish refocusing. It won't do you much good though: Even with two feats and a house-rule, you still only get a total of one move-equivalent action. So you're stuck using Hustle or Schism to refocus, just like before.
DarknessEternal 06-01-05, 12:58 AM	Transparency doesn't apply to feats like this; Precedent: Combat Manifestation.
catharz 06-01-05, 01:02 AM	Transparency doesn't apply to feats like this; Precedent: Combat Manifestation. Transparency doesn't apply to much of anything: Psionics–Magic Transparency: Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics. When the rule about psionics–magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications. Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.) All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa. The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura). Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas. That is it.
Tempest Stormwind 06-01-05, 02:32 AM	Transparency doesn't apply to feats like this; Precedent: Combat Manifestation. Heck, case in point: ANY METAPSIONIC FEAT. Empower Spell: Empower effect, +2 spell levels. Empower Power: Empower effect, +2 pp (+1 spell level), expend focus. Transparency is only applied when powers and spells directly interact (or when resistances to them interact, i.e. spell resistance). The OP therefore appears to be "Look at this houseruled feat which completely breaks an otherwise balanced class!"
djinni 06-01-05, 02:34 AM	As far as I can tell, Mobile Spellcasting allows a character to split a move action to take effects before and after casting a spell. Because refocusing is a move-equivalent action, you might be able to start refocusing, cast a spell, and then finish refocusing. It won't do you much good though: Even with two feats and a house-rule, you still only get a total of one move-equivalent action. problem with your logic it the feat states that you cast the spell and move combined as a standard action. so you a human spellcaster can move 30' cast his spell and then move 30 more feet... with the transparency (regardless if it is RAW) if it works you would be able to use hustle to refocus with your move action pass your concentration check and manifest a power while moving into an advantagous position.
Tempest Stormwind 06-01-05, 02:45 AM	The way I read it, you could do the following: Standard Action: Move and Manifest (Concentration check). Move action: Refocus. No need for Hustle. The problem is, transparency doesn't work that way. Thus, this feat is homebrew, and it is yet another example of when something relatively "simple and commonplace" for mages would terribly break the psionics system (the first is Practiced Spellcaster).
Gravmyr 06-01-05, 10:25 AM	Can anyone tell me why practiced manifester would be so broken?
DarknessEternal 06-01-05, 10:25 AM	Just because something exists for magic doesn't mean it must exist for psionics (due to cries of transparency or not). Likewise, not everything that exists for psionics exists for magic. Transparency applies to psionic and magical effects. Not all of magic and all of psionics.
Tempest Stormwind 06-01-05, 10:43 AM	Can anyone tell me why practiced manifester would be so broken? The consensus on the psi boards is that, since only two powers scale freely with your manifester level (like mages) instead of with PP costs: 1) Practiced Manifester as a direct port of Practiced Spellcaster would be underpowered. 2) Practiced spellcaster with bonus PP to account for the augmentation mechanic would be messy and/or overpowered. Finally, ACID TEST: Compare to the ONLY existing way to increase your manifester level without being a wilder -- the Overchannel feat, which peaks at +3, for 5d8 damage, at level 15. (No, orange ioun stones don't work either; see the transparency quote.)
carnivore 06-01-05, 11:19 AM	i would allow it like this: Practiced Manifester:prerequisite:4 ranks Psicraft. Benifit : You may manifest Powers as if your manifester level were 4 levels higher in regards to all Variable numeric effects that rely on manifester level. This also affects your manifester level cap, allowing you to manifest powers with a cost as if your manifester level were 4 levels higher. However this will not allow your manifester level to exceed your HD. This feat does not give additional power points. it is not over powered or underpowered, in this form..........IMHO ;) :D
Gravmyr 06-01-05, 11:29 AM	There are a few problems with looking at it that way. 1. I don't know who is running these psionicists but I have never run out of pp. 2. Yes spells scale automatically, but looking through the powers a majority of them do unless they deal damage or add a bonus. 3. What builds rely on Practiced Spellcaster? Few damage slinger builds if I remember right they are mostly for the buffers or such. 4. How would they ever introduce new mechanics if you couldn't add anything that wasn't already available or had nothing comparable? 5. Overchannel has no prerequisite while Practiced Manifester would require 4 ranks of Psicraft while not a huge thing this does dictate where 4 of your skill points are going to go for some classes that is a huge investment. But that isn't what we are here to talk about, though some points bleed both ways. They obviously feel that psionics are slightly underpowered when compared to spells or they would make the metapsionic feats cost the same as casting an augmented spell by making each level for the metamagic equal 2 pp for the metapsionic. Yes the magic transparency rule does not apply to feats but lets be honest, enough of the mechanics for magic and psionics are identical that a feat altered here or there is hardly going to make a psionicist or caster greatly overpowered when something similar already exists for the other side.
catharz 06-01-05, 03:34 PM	problem with your logic it the feat states that you cast the spell and move combined as a standard action. so you a human spellcaster can move 30' cast his spell and then move 30 more feet... with the transparency (regardless if it is RAW) if it works you would be able to use hustle to refocus with your move action pass your concentration check and manifest a power while moving into an advantagous position. OK, I re-read the feat and what you're saying kinda makes sense (and yes, I was wrong). With a houserule that the feat could be used with psionic powers, you could refocus and then move 30' while manifesting a power, or vice-versa. But the fact still stands that Psi-Magic transparency does not go nearly as far as you seem to think it does. The consensus on the psi boards is that, since only two powers scale freely with your manifester level (like mages) instead of with PP costs: 1) Practiced Manifester as a direct port of Practiced Spellcaster would be underpowered. 2) Practiced spellcaster with bonus PP to account for the augmentation mechanic would be messy and/or overpowered. Finally, ACID TEST: Compare to the ONLY existing way to increase your manifester level without being a wilder -- the Overchannel feat, which peaks at +3, for 5d8 damage, at level 15. (No, orange ioun stones don't work either; see the transparency quote.) The difference is that Practiced manifester would only add +4 if your manifester level was 4 (or more) less than your character level. There aren't many spellcasting feats which will add +4 (or even +1) to your caster level above your character level.
RadicalTaoist 06-01-05, 08:56 PM	I fear that Practiced Manifester would break all the psionic PrCs that are balanced by losing manifester levels. It's just too powerful in a system without free scaling.
catharz 06-01-05, 09:12 PM	I fear that Practiced Manifester would break all the psionic PrCs that are balanced by losing manifester levels. It's just too powerful in a system without free scaling. Isn't it less powerful in a system without free scaling?
lokkesmadr 06-01-05, 09:28 PM	No, because in a system without free scaling the given effects are usually more potent on a case by case basis as a result. Being able to scale the effect higher than one should normally be able to is overpowering in a situation where the ability to scale effects is purposefully limited.
djinni 06-01-05, 09:31 PM	[QUOTE=Tempest Stormwind]Standard Action: Move and Manifest (Concentration check). Move action: Refocus. No need for Hustle.[\QUOTE] I didn't mean the power hustle I meatn the feat that allows you to refocus as a move action. since it is normally a full round action to refocus
Gravmyr 06-01-05, 10:21 PM	Lets have a quick look at what this would actually do in the case of times when you would be loosing the 4 levels of manifeter. There are 3 main PrC's that you would truely care if you took the feat for, Thrallherd which would net you a whopping 2 levels, Psion Uncarnate which would net you the total bonus of 4, and the actual worst case for this Metamind which nets you the full 4 also. Taking it as a thrallherd is kinda a waste of a feat as I said it nets you only an additional 2 levels and the ones that scale with the most effect are those that cost at least 2pp more to manifest. The psion uncarnate it does help quite a bit with the 4 levels returned that are lost, you are looking at the most bonus being 4pp per spell without the addition of pp through standard level and the levels that this would net you the full bonus four levels nearly doubles your pp pool. The worst case is when you give it to the metamind at 10th level because of the unlimited pp ability but that is a balance issue in itself not a problem with the feat. By not gaining more pp yes you can scale your damage up a maximum of 4d6 or average 14 dmg on a few spells, but you are also making so they cast at least one less second level power per additional 14dmg. How many wizards or even sorcerers would be willing to take practiced spellcaster if it meant that they would have to sacrifice a second level spell every time they cast a spell to gain the benefit of PS without gaining any additional spells per day? I'm guessing very few.
catharz 06-01-05, 10:28 PM	No, because in a system without free scaling the given effects are usually more potent on a case by case basis as a result. Being able to scale the effect higher than one should normally be able to is overpowering in a situation where the ability to scale effects is purposefully limited. The fact that 'Practiced X' is limited to character level already keeps characters from scaling effects to higher than one normally should be able to. There are 3 main PrC's that you would truely care if you took the feat for, Thrallherd which would net you a whopping 2 levels, Psion Uncarnate which would net you the total bonus of 4, and the actual worst case for this Metamind which nets you the full 4 also. No, you take it for Warmind. Which nets a total +4 bonus to MLevel starting at PrCLevel 1.
Gravmyr 06-02-05, 02:18 AM	OK assuming that you can take it with a PrC that grants you your first level in manifesting and you have four other levels in which you can gain the maximum bonus to ML you still hit the same problem as before with few PP to use to augment those powers, in this case, Warmind, you would have to have at least a +3 Wis Mod to be able to take the best advantage of the feat right off the bat. The other option is to take a psionic race and gain free points but that is a bit silly if you are not going to go full caster anyway though I suppose you could in order to gain a few more points for an otherwise suboptimal build. Either way you look at it you are investing quite a bit to get a relatively minor bonus to manifesting as compared to Practiced Spellcaster.
catharz 06-02-05, 03:09 AM	OK assuming...[Blah Blah Blah]...compared to Practiced Spellcaster. An X 5/Warmind 1 with a wisdom of 12 has 2 power points. An X 5/Warmind 1 with a wisdom of 12 and "Practiced Manifester" has 4 power points (twice as many). An X 5/Warmind 10 with a wisdom of 15 has 80 power points and can manifest a 2d6 (medium), 10-hour Claws of the Beast. An X 5/Warmind 10 with a wisdom of 15 and "Practiced Manifester" has 85 power points and can manifest a 4d6, 15-hour Claws of the Beast. Compare to Psychic Warrior: A Psychic warrior 15 with a wisdom of 15 has 72 power points and can manifest a 4d6 (medium), 15-hour Claws of the Beast. What does this demonstrate? 1) Secondary manifesters often have (roughly) as many PP as primary manifesters. 2) A Psychic Warrior 15 has a signifigant manifesting edge over an X 5/Warmind 10, while a Warmind with "Practiced Manifester" is roughly equal (more PP, fewer powers known).
Gravmyr 06-02-05, 03:41 AM	The math appears to be slightly off though. A war mind 10/15 wis with the full +4 from PM would manifest the claws at 3d6 (m) for 14 hours and only have 80pp. At best the Warmind 10/15 wis/+4 PM would have 14 bonus pp, 84 pp total, as they are determined though manifester level not character level. You are assuming that it would affect your bonus PP which I'm not seeing why it would having reread the Practiced Spellcaster feat and it not affecting spells per day, I'm not sure why it would be allowed to affect power points per day.
catharz 06-02-05, 04:10 AM	The math appears to be slightly off though. A war mind 10/15 wis with the full +4 from PM would manifest the claws at 3d6 (m) for 14 hours and only have 80pp. At best the Warmind 10/15 wis/+4 PM would have 14 bonus pp, 84 pp total, as they are determined though manifester level not character level. You are assuming that it would affect your bonus PP which I'm not seeing why it would having reread the Practiced Spellcaster feat and it not affecting spells per day, I'm not sure why it would be allowed to affect power points per day. You're right, I was using +5 for some reason. Anyway, bonus power points are specifically based on a manifester level vs. ability score matrix, unlike spellcasting (which is based on a max spell level vs. ability score matrix). So anything which increases manifester level will increase PP.
carnivore 06-02-05, 07:33 AM	practiced manifester should not raise PP or powers Known............it should only raise the following: manifester cap manifester level for variable numeric effects related to manifester level manifester level vs PR/SR and it should not raise it beyond the HD or character level of the Character :D
Gravmyr 06-02-05, 10:58 AM	Actually it should increase with an increase manifester level but no where does it say that is does and if you would translate the feat into psionic terms then it would state that it does not affect your power points per day or powers known. Beyond that I'm not sure it would allow for more power point usage anyway as the last line would be converted to say, "It increases your manifester level only, which would help you penetrate power resistance and increase the duration and other effects of your powers." I suppose becuase the mechanic is not automatic scaling you could say that it would also include something about increased PP usage but the is all in how you write it.
Tempest Stormwind 06-02-05, 10:59 AM	practiced manifester should not raise PP or powers Known............it should only raise the following: manifester cap manifester level for variable numeric effects related to manifester level manifester level vs PR/SR and it should not raise it beyond the HD or character level of the Character :D However, Practiced Manifester is a permanant adjustment to your numeric "manifester level" -- and this is the variable used in the bonus PP calculation, which is AbilityMod*ManifesterLevel/2. Any permanant change to ML will alter your bonus power points.
carnivore 06-02-05, 11:11 AM	practiced manifester should ONLY affect the manifesting of powers...not getting new powers, not Gaining Power Points.....the same as Practiced Caster does not give additional spells known or spell slots, it only affects the Caster level when You CAST a spell. thus Practiced Manifester should also only affect: manifester cap manifester level for variable numeric effects related to manifester level manifester level vs PR/SR and it should not raise it beyond the HD or character level of the Character :D
Antendren 06-02-05, 12:00 PM	manifester level for variable numeric effects related to manifester levelBonus PPs are a numeric effect related to manifester level. If you don't want the feat to affect them, then rephrase this.
carnivore 06-02-05, 12:07 PM	ok, how about this: Practiced Manifester:prerequisite:4 ranks Psicraft. Benifit : You may manifest Powers as if your manifester level were 4 levels higher in regards to all Variable numeric effects that rely on manifester level when manifesting Powers. This also affects your manifester level cap, allowing you to manifest powers with a cost as if your manifester level were 4 levels higher. This also affects your Manifester level in regard to overcoming PR/SR. However this will not allow your manifester level to exceed your HD. This feat does not give additional power points or Powers known, it only affects manifester level when Manifesting powers. :D
Betrayer of Hope 06-02-05, 02:36 PM	This is an excellent case in point as to why magic-psionics transparency doesn't extend to feats (and is actually quite narrow). There are some fundamental differences in the psionics/magic mechanics that don't fit together well. This is a fun exercise, but any porting of Practiced Spellcaster or Mobile Spellcasting is going to be a house rule (and won't really impact builds here since it has no foundation in the RAW).