Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tiejaz 03-26-06, 01:58 AM	Can it? The Sneaktank Commander Scout (CV) 7 / Nightsong Enforcer (CV) 10 / Dread Commando (HB) 3 Human Skillful, Combatant, Mobile, Leader 1 Dodge, Mobility 3 Improved Initiative 4 Spring Attack B (Scout) 6 Leadership 9 Goad (CW) 12 Expeditious Dodge (RW) 15 Extra Followers (HB) 18 Improved Cohort (HB) Nets great leadership, spring attack, 3 different types of precision damage. 北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北 北北北北北北北北北北 Trapmaster / Skill Rogue Elf Rogue 7 / Nightsong Infiltrator (CV) 10 / Exemplar (CV) 2 / Dungeon Delver (CV) 1 1 Alertness 3 Jack of All Trades (CV) 6 Dive for Cover (CV) 9 Quick Reconnoiter (CV) 12 Skill Focus (Search) 15 Blind-Fight 18 Spell Hand (CA) Nets: Massive skills. Take 10 on many of them. Can see an invisible stirge in pitch dark with his eyes closed. 北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北 北北北北北北北北北北北 Acrobat / Combat Rogue Whisper Gnome (RS) Rogue 3 / Ninja (CV) 2 / Thief-Acrobat (CV) 5 / Shadowdancer 10 1 Agile Acrobat (CV) 3 Dodge 6 Mobility 9 Combat Reflexes 12 Brachiation (CV) 15 Improved Diversion 18 Dive for Cover Nets: Hide in plain sight, incredible acrobatics. Not dependent upon strength score, because of agile acrobat and sudden strike. 北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北 北北北北北北北北北北北 Arcanist / Master Illusionist Gnome Gnome Illusionist 5 (RS) / Mindbender (CA) 1 / Mage of the Arcane Order 1 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 (RS) / Mage of the Arcane Order 2-9 1 Spell Focus (Illusion) 3 Extend Spell 6 Cooperative Spell 9 Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) 12 Sudden Extend Spell 15 Persistant Spell 18 Heighten Spell 北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北北 北北北北北北北北北北北 Divinist / Diplomat Gnome Gnome/Divine Bard 5 (RS/UA) / Divine Prankster 10 / Gnome Divine Bard 6-10 (RS/UA) 1 Spell Focus (Enchantment) 3 Extend Spell 6 Cooperative Spell (for dual-illusion/enchantment with the arcanist) 9 Subsonics 12 Lyric Spell 15 Lingering Song 18 Extra Bardic Music
fnord 03-26-06, 02:50 AM	Can it? Probably. Plus, nice synergy in that everyone can sneak past obstacles, not just the rogue, especially with all the Nightsong stuff. The Sneaktank Commander Scout (CV) 7 / Nightsong Enforcer (CV) 10 / Dread Commando (HB) 3 Human Skillful, Combatant, Mobile, Leader 1 Dodge, Mobility 3 Improved Initiative 4 Spring Attack B (Scout) 6 Leadership 9 Goad (CW) 12 Expeditious Dodge (RW) 15 Extra Followers (HB) 18 Improved Cohort (HB) Why Extra Followers? What's your cohort? Trapmaster / Skill Rogue Elf Rogue 7 / Nightsong Infiltrator (CV) 10 / Dungeon Delver (CV) 3 1 Alertness 3 Jack of All Trades (CV) 6 Dive for Cover (CV) 9 Quick Reconnoiter (CV) 12 Spell Hand (CA) 15 Blind-Fight 18 Communicator (CA) Not sure what the point of Spell Hand is. Also, with the reflex save as high as it's likely to be, why Dive for Cover? Do you expect to fail lots of saves vs. traps? Incidentally, I think Exemplar is a good dip for skill types, for the Skill Mastery; you may want to consider that. I might go for Whisper Gnome for this one, two; you lose the + to sense skills, but you get net +4 to Con, and bonuses to hide. The elf autosearch ability only works on secret doors, not traps, so I don't find it that useful. Acrobat / Combat Rogue Whisper Gnome (RS) Rogue 3 / Ninja (CV) 2 / Thief-Acrobat (CV) 5 / Shadowdancer 10 1 Agile Acrobat (CV) 3 Dodge 6 Mobility 9 Combat Reflexes 12 Brachiation (CV) 15 Improved Diversion 18 Dive for Cover Dive for Cover again, in another high reflex build? Are you expecting that many ref saves? Arcanist / Master Illusionist Gnome Gnome Illusionist 7 (RS) / Shadowcraft Mage 5 (RS) / Archmage 5 / Gnome Illusionist 8-10 (RS) 1 Natural Trickster 3 Trivial Knowledge 6 Spell Focus (Illusion) 9 Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) 12 Spell Mastery 15 Spell Mastery 18 Spell Mastery Spell Mastery? Why? Given that you can use Unearthed Arcana, why not just take the Illusion Mastery varient if you want it that badly? You don't meet the prerequisites for Archmage. Also, the really trick of Shadowcraft Mage involved Heightening the image spells (Silent Image, etc), to Emulate lots of spells, with Earth Spell as gravy. You're not set up for any of those tricks. Finally, I'd consider Mindbender, for the silent telepathy, maybe Mindsight. Divinist / Diplomat Halfling Gnome/Divine Bard 5 (RS/UA) / Divine Prankster 10 / Gnome Divine Bard 6-10 (RS/UA) 1 Spell Focus (Enchantment) 3 Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment) 6 Lyric Spell 9 Subsonics 12 Ironskin Chant 15 Lingering Song 18 Extra Bardic Music Well... I don't really like Ironskin Chant, but other than that, this seems like a good build. However, I don't feel it fills the "cleric" slot. While the UMD potential in this party can help, clerics have a very broad selection of spells, some of which can be very important (Restoration). Edit: Also, Stalinism is not facism. Stalinism can't really be called anything but Stalinism (OK, totalitarianism, but that's kind of broad). Facism and Stalinism are both totalitarianism, but they are not the same.
Khazra Reborn 03-26-06, 09:14 AM	May i suggest a dwarf cleric3/rogue1/church inquisotr6/shadowbane stalker10 for the divine caster? It casts as a cleric 17 which is pretty good, atleast enough to lay down some decent healing. With a persistant divine power it could make a nice back up melee character aswell. You really need atleast 1 dedicated melee rogue. As it is your strongest melee character has spring attack which seems odd to me as it means 1 attack/round. For a melee frontliner (which i suggest you replace your acrobat with), how about: dwarf ranger2/rogue7/nightsong enforcer1/vasself of bahumat2/nightsonf enforcer2-9 Feats are: 1.sacred vow, vow of obedience 3. vow of obedience 6. TWF 9. ITWF 12. OTWF 15. PA 18. GTWF Vassel of bahumat is very unusual to see in rogue builds but it has good HD and full BaB which helps you survivability. Then it also has the best light armour around for good protection without your movement/skills being hampered, darkvision 120ft and of course 2000 gold free. Even with your very limited spell list, if your using high crit weapons (eg 2 rapiers or 2 scimitars) bless weapon is pretty helpful.
tiejaz 03-26-06, 09:25 AM	Why Extra Followers? What's your cohort? 1. Extra Followers is awesome. Hundreds of low-level ninja running around causing chaos while we sneak in undetected. 2. Cohort will depend on how the game runs. If we start to buy a lot of healing, might be an urban druid who wild-shapes into a quiet form, or some type of cleric/divine prankster Not sure what the point of Spell Hand is. Also, with the reflex save as high as it's likely to be, why Dive for Cover? Do you expect to fail lots of saves vs. traps? Incidentally, I think Exemplar is a good dip for skill types, for the Skill Mastery; you may want to consider that. I might go for Whisper Gnome for this one, two; you lose the + to sense skills, but you get net +4 to Con, and bonuses to hide. The elf autosearch ability only works on secret doors, not traps, so I don't find it that useful. 1. Spell hand is a nice feat, but somewhat of a filler. 2. Yes. Yes, I do. 3. I agree with exemplar. Another whisper gnome is not fitting. I was looking for diversity among the party. I would very much consider doing this: Rogue 7 / Nightsong Infiltrator 10 / Exemplar 3 or Exemplar 2 / Dungeon Delver 1 Dive for Cover again, in another high reflex build? Are you expecting that many ref saves? Yes. It is a very flavorful feat. With a party such as this, we will need it. Not to mention how many traps we find, in the current party while we have nobody with trapfinding. Spell Mastery? Why? Given that you can use Unearthed Arcana, why not just take the Illusion Mastery varient if you want it that badly? You don't meet the prerequisites for Archmage. Also, the really trick of Shadowcraft Mage involved Heightening the image spells (Silent Image, etc), to Emulate lots of spells, with Earth Spell as gravy. You're not set up for any of those tricks. Finally, I'd consider Mindbender, for the silent telepathy, maybe Mindsight. Oops. Sorry. Forgot to research. Drop archmage. Don't care about Earth Spell. Not too fond of the flavor. This is a more urban group. Oh, mindbender 1 is great. Go with this: Gnome Illusionist 5 / Mindbender 1/ MoTAO 1 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 / MoTAO 2-9 Build will be edited to fit. [QUOTE=fnord] Well... I don't really like Ironskin Chant, but other than that, this seems like a good build. However, I don't feel it fills the "cleric" slot. While the UMD potential in this party can help, clerics have a very broad selection of spells, some of which can be very important (Restoration). [quote=SRD]Add the following spells to the divine bard's class spell list: 0梒reate water, cure minor wounds; 1st梔etect evil/good/law, protection from evil/good/law; 2nd梒onsecrate, desecrate, gentle repose; 3rd梞agic circle against evil/good/law, prayer; 4th梤emove disease, speak with dead, sending; 5th梔ivination, restoration; 6th梒ommune, hallow, unhallow, raise dead. doesn't fit the cleric Slot? do your reading like I didn't with archmage.
tiejaz 03-26-06, 09:28 AM	May i suggest a dwarf cleric3/rogue1/church inquisotr6/shadowbane stalker10 for the divine caster? dwarf ranger2/rogue7/nightsong enforcer1/vasself of bahumat2/nightsonf enforcer2-9 no. i'm not dropping the flavor of the party for the most powerful armor in the game. Sorry. Also, dwarves suck. That's it. They do. Especially for this type of quiet, mobile party.
Khazra Reborn 03-26-06, 12:45 PM	How can a character with 7 rogue levels and 9 levels in a rogue prc be dropping the flavour? Being lawful good doesnt stop you being a rogue you know, it just stops you being an assasin. Another whisper gnome is not fitting. I was looking for diversity among the party. Doesnt really support your idea about dwarves. You already have 2 gnomes and a whisper gnome, thats hardly diverse. dwarves suck. That's it. They do. Especially for this type of quiet, mobile party. Mobile? surely that comes down to a combo of speed and armour? they are no slower then the gnomes. Even if the average dwarf isnt exactly the sneakiest guy around, who wants to play an avergae character? Adventures arent normal, thats what makes them heroes. EDIT>dwarves also get a bonus with stone based traps... The fact is that you need someone in the frontlines and dwarf gives a con bonus whilst leaving you with medium weapons. Warforged could be another option but i feel that a character with high con and damage is necessary to your group. Sure theres lots of precision damage flying about but you need someone who can take out those immune to crits or you'll likely be creamed by the first group of these enemies. Heres another suggestion: Dwarf* rogue1/ninja7/ghostfaced killer10/battlesmith2 *if your really aginst dwarf there are suggetions in the description for adapting the prc so you can use it with other races. Take inuitive strike from BoED. Dual wield warhammers with OTWF It gets wis to attack, damage and AC. That wis to damage is fairly reliable and with 7 attacks a round hopefully enough to make any struggles with constructs/plants/etc easier for the party. It also has 8D6SS,1D6SA which is fairly good, BaB17 and 12 levels of decent HD. I cannot stress to you enough that a spring attacker cannot be your main combatatant and will never do enough damage to keep the party alive.
Zsasz_Diedne 03-26-06, 05:19 PM	A Ghost Faced Killer cannot have Intuitive Attack, it's an Exalted feat. Aside from that I agree with Khazra, your being a bit shortsighted, Spring Attack is indeed ill suited for a frontliner, it only really works if the entire crew has it, and even then it is still limited in it's applications (you won't always be fighting in nice large open spaces). I would suggest a couple of Invisible Blades or Blade Bravos, and even then he makes yet another valid point; undead, constructs and all their crit immune brethren are going to tear you apart. Your lacking what most good criminal orginizations have. As for Dwarves sucking, pshaw sir! pshaw!
lostone 03-27-06, 10:12 AM	Easiest way to have an entire group of roguish characters is to use the gestalt rules. That way you can have a group similar to this: Rogue build/tank build (aka: enforcer or bodyguard) Rogue build/cleric build Rogue build/monk build (aka: Ninja) Rogue build/wizard build
Prominence 03-27-06, 10:53 AM	I think it would work better with 1. Rogue 16 / Nightsong Enforcer 4 -The Trapper, BaB 16. Focus on Disable Device, search, etc. 2. Elven Rogue 2 / Wizard 5 / Daggerspell Shaper 10 / Mindbender 1 / AT 2 -Only 2 caster level loss, mass telepath for coordination tactics. Focus on arcane sneakiness. 3. Druid 20 (or druid / rogue / daggerspell shaper) -Healer, vigor, tank, mobility, air scout.... I could go on. 4. Dwarven Cleric / Rogue / Shadowbane Stalker -There's a level 1 spell that makes armor lose its penalties, so you sneak without heavy armor penalty. That said, he also gets Grave Strike and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. Furthermore, it has turn undead, nab Divine Vigor and your base move speed will be 30. Focus skills on religion and stuff. 5. Some sort of bard gish involving fochal lyrist or the standard Eldritch Chord. Use Arcane Strike for that Rogue feeling attack. Focus skills on Face (diplomacy, bluff, intimidate). All 5 are capable of healing themselves (UMD, spells), have high sneaking abilities (supplimented by magic and wildshape), multiple forms of transporation (arcane teleports, wildshape into flying, alter self into xorn if Otherworldly is available), forced concealment (darkness, deeper darkvision, blindsight spells). Furthermore, they can drop the sneaking and still be incredibly strong. You can't sneak all the time - stuff will have blindsight, mindsight, true seeing.... you need a party capable of handling themselves when the main tactic goes sour. Anyway, I suggest getting everyone Claws of the Leopard or some form of full attack on a charge. That would be an easy 30 attacks on a blitz.
Prominence 03-27-06, 10:58 AM	Forgot to add, you may want to toss Marshal 3 on someone there for the Motivate Dex aura. This gives the marshal's cha to everyone on Dex checks and initiative. So... everyone will be getting +10 or something to hiding and move silent. Change the cleric if you want to... Human Marshal 3 / Rogue X / Divine Crusader 1 / Shadowbane Stalker 10 (iirc shadowbane stalker advances casting, if not scrap the idea and just use silence to replace move silently, and Invisibility to replace hide.) Another thought would be to replace the bard with an Illumian Chameleon. With a high charisma and Ability boon, you could probably get around 40+ charisma by level 20 and persist tons of stuff with the Naenhoon sigil. Perfect for Leadership and Marshal (motivate INT or Motivate Fortitude would be my second choices for auras).