Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BladeMaster2088 09-22-04, 05:29 PM	I came to a realization a little while ago while thinking about how to optimize my rogue.. is it possible to bypass armor with heavy fortification if your using a brilliant energy dagger? I mean technically the weapon goes straight thru it.. so I thought that rogues could still be somewhat effective with sneak attack damage at high levels.. Obviously creatures immune to criticals are immune anyways but JUST for heavy fortification? Gimme some feedback on this interesting concept
Vapor IX 09-22-04, 05:41 PM	Fortification: This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. Emphasis mine.
Timely Drought 09-22-04, 05:44 PM	Interesting. But I don't think it works with the RAW. Fortification "produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively", and brilliant energy only mentions bypassing armor AC and enhancement, not any other properties granted by the armor.
allenchan 09-22-04, 05:59 PM	But it just says armor enchantments, and fortification is an armor enchantment, no? It doesn't specificy which kind of enchantment, strictly by the RAW.
SpiritGlyph 09-22-04, 06:44 PM	It does, actually. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor.
allenchan 09-22-04, 07:22 PM	Yes, as I read it, the armor qualifies as a bonus to AC, so automaticly everything on the armor qualifies
Caelic 09-22-04, 07:27 PM	Yes, as I read it, the armor qualifies as a bonus to AC, so automaticly everything on the armor qualifies 'Fraid not. The text is very specific about what is disregarded: armor bonus to AC, shield bonus to AC, and enhancement bonuses to same. An enhancement bonus is a specific type of bonus, not a general catch-all term for any old bonus or enchantment placed on the armor.
BladeMaster2088 09-22-04, 07:48 PM	Look the point isn't weither or not its in the rules.. because the rules don't say anything about enhancements like heavy fortificaton. It also doesn't say anything under heavy fortification on if it still apllies even if the armor is bypassed.. I'm going off of the description that it PASSES THROUGH THE ARMOR.. I'm just interested in how DMs would rule on a decision like that.. logically it makes sense because even though heavy fortification is MAGICAL FORCE.. so is armor enhancements.. weither or not its magical doesn't effect brilliant energy
Timely Drought 09-22-04, 07:59 PM	Look the point isn't weither or not its in the rules.. because the rules don't say anything about enhancements like heavy fortificaton. It also doesn't say anything under heavy fortification on if it still apllies even if the armor is bypassed.. I'm going off of the description that it PASSES THROUGH THE ARMOR.. I'm just interested in how DMs would rule on a decision like that.. logically it makes sense because even though heavy fortification is MAGICAL FORCE.. so is armor enhancements.. weither or not its magical doesn't effect brilliant energySo you want to follow the rules while not following the rules? I think you're a little too zen for us.
BladeMaster2088 09-22-04, 08:02 PM	Umm.. no I was establishing that the rules really don't go into that.. and that i don't think it makes sense that the weapon ignores your armor and the magical properties of the armor but gets stopped by a magical force.. I was wondering more what DMs would say in regards to this.. My personal oppinion is that brilliant energy would ignore heavy fortification.. i want to know what others think.. I'm trying to establish some sort of LOGIC.. while still keeping within the DM rules..
Aerk 09-22-04, 08:15 PM	No, you want us to agree with you and say Brilliant Energy bypasses armor and all enhancements on the armor - but Brilliant Energy just bypasses the AC bonus provided by armor, including the enhancement bonus that adds to AC. That is still pretty damn powerful, but Heavy Fortification is magical property added to armor that has an equivalent enhancement bonus cost. The magical force still applies, like if you had an epic level brilliant energy sonic dagger, and the armor had Greater Sonic Resistance, it would ignore the sonic damage as well. If you want to give a logical arguement that it should bypass all magical properties of the armor as well as the material of the armor, go ahead. The arguement you present is the best I can see, and if your DM will allow it, sure. The way I read it and understand it, though, is that fortification is a magical force that 'fills in the gaps' if you will, protecting critical sensetive areas, much like brilliant energy wouldn't ignore Bracers of Armor. In the end, its a judgement call by your DM.
Vapor IX 09-22-04, 08:23 PM	Brilliant Energy: A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition. Fortification: This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. Again, emphasis mine. Here is basically what we are saying. 1) Brilliant energy allows you to bypass nonliving matter. Armor is nonliving matter. 2) Fortification is a -magical- force. Magic is not nonliving matter. Therefore, brilliant energy does not bypass the magical force and thereby does not bypass fortification. Further: 3) Brilliant energy allows you to bypass armor and shield bonuses, including enchantment bonuses to AC (i.e. straight plusses on your armor/shield). 4) Fortification is not an armor or shield bonus, nor is it an enchantment bonus to AC. So, again, brilliant energy does not bypass fortification. You're not really using logic. We play by the rules on this board because otherwise it is just guesswork as to what a DM would allow. So, we make decisions based on the RAW (Rules As Written) and then make allowances for DM decision, not the other way around.
BladeMaster2088 09-22-04, 08:32 PM	Well you've already come to your first contradiction... it says that it ignores nonliving matter.. yet Bracers of Armor produces a magical effect... but it counts as armor so brilliant energy still passes through it.. because it counts as armor.. and enhancement bonus' are magical.. (so why wouldn't it bypass Heavy fort. because in the rules it is a +5 enhancement) look I'm not saying you guys need to change your ways.. I just thought it was interesting... and RAW doesn't explain this very well.. due to the reasons I pointed out.
Andaran 09-22-04, 08:47 PM	Well Fortification is no AC enhancement its a magical force effect or, in game terms, a special ability. You may bypass the armor but you wont be able to bypass the special ability Fortification. (only armor and armor enhancement bonus)
Vapor IX 09-22-04, 08:58 PM	Well you've already come to your first contradiction... (1)it says that it ignores nonliving matter.. (2)yet Bracers of Armor produces a magical effect... but it counts as armor so brilliant energy still passes through it.. because it counts as armor.. (3)and enhancement bonus' are magical.. (so why wouldn't it bypass Heavy fort. because in the rules it is a +5 enhancement) look I'm not saying you guys need to change your ways.. I just thought it was interesting... and RAW doesn't explain this very well.. due to the reasons I pointed out. Broken apart for coherency. 1) Yes, they ignore nonliving matter. We've established this. 2) Bracers of armor give you an ENHANCEMENT BONUS TO AC. Brilliant energy does not pass through the bracers because they are armor (not by game defintions anyways) but because brilliant energy says that it ignores ENHANCEMENT BONUSES TO AC. 3) Enhancement bonuses are magical, but not all magic is enhancement bonuses. Fortification isn't a +5 enhancement bonus, it has a price equivalent to a +5 enhancement bonus. You have fallen prey to the logical fallacies of Argument from Ignorance (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/distract/ig.htm) and Composition (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/compos.htm). It's nothing personal, but that website has helped me learn a lot about how I think and how to prove a point.
RadicalTaoist 09-22-04, 09:42 PM	It's just barely vague enough to deserve an official clarification from WotC. Me, I wouldn't play it that way simply because it's not fair to make a +5 armor enhancement useless even with a +4 weapon one.
Qaetar 09-23-04, 04:04 AM	Well, look at it this way: Let's say you have an Armor of Silent Moves and you're attacked by a Rogue with a Brilliant Energy Dagger. Do you lose your Silent Moves bonus? Do you lose it while the Rogue is attacking you? (Qaetar)
Pathanus 09-23-04, 05:48 PM	Once you start running into enemies with a constant +6 armor value (or even +4) for +1 then Heavy Fortification, you will probably have alternatives to your sneak attacking, and get some expensive loot after winning that is worth alot of gold. UMD Scrolls of Entagle and stuff or other spells instead of sneak attacking or something. Path
Part-Human2 09-24-04, 01:44 AM	a) Enhancement bonuses never rise about +5 (until Epic) and add to the Armor bonus of the armor or shield. Armor Special Abilities are priced in bonus cost but are called Armor Special Abilities, not Enhancements. b) Brilliant Energy only ignores nonliving matter. A Force Effect is not matter so it is not bypassed. c) "Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor" doesn't help in the case of Bracers of Armor because it is not armor, it's a Force Effect that provides an Armor bonus. I'm more concerned as to if an Silver Brilliant Energy weapon is still treated as silver for overcoming Damage Reduction since a "significant portion" of it is transformed into light.
catharz 09-24-04, 02:05 AM	You have fallen prey to the logical fallacies of Argument from Ignorance (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/distract/ig.htm) and Composition (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/compos.htm). It's nothing personal, but that website has helped me learn a lot about how I think and how to prove a point. Great link. Helps to analyze http://rawilson.com/main.shtml
hobbit_killer 09-24-04, 08:04 AM	Again, emphasis mine. Here is basically what we are saying. 1) Brilliant energy allows you to bypass nonliving matter. Armor is nonliving matter. 2) Fortification is a -magical- force. Magic is not nonliving matter. Therefore, brilliant energy does not bypass the magical force and thereby does not bypass fortification. Further: 3) Brilliant energy allows you to bypass armor and shield bonuses, including enchantment bonuses to AC (i.e. straight plusses on your armor/shield). 4) Fortification is not an armor or shield bonus, nor is it an enchantment bonus to AC. So, again, brilliant energy does not bypass fortification. You're not really using logic. We play by the rules on this board because otherwise it is just guesswork as to what a DM would allow. So, we make decisions based on the RAW (Rules As Written) and then make allowances for DM decision, not the other way around. Then, by the rules, a force weapon can dispel fortification. From the WoTC website: Force Weapon Property: On a successful hit, a force weapon emits a powerful jolt of magical force. The magical force does not harm the weapon's wielder. Force weapons deal +1d6 points of force damage on a successful hit. If the weapon successfully hits a target protected by a force effect, such as a shield spell or bracers of armor, it might dispel the force effect in addition to damaging the target. Make a dispel check (1d20+10) against the effect (DC 11 + caster level). If the check succeeds, the force effect is dispelled (if a spell) or suppressed for 1d4 rounds (if a magic item). Ranged weapons bestow this property on their ammunition. Incorporeal creatures get no miss chance against force weapons. This property first appeared in the Arms and Equipment Guide and has been updated. Moderate evocation; CL 11th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, wall of force; Price +3 bonus.
Zan 09-24-04, 09:55 AM	Well, then, in any case, a brilliant energy force dagger MUST bypass fortification. :D
Andaran 09-24-04, 11:49 AM	I repeat, Fortification is a special ability. You can bypass the armor, not its special abilities.
eRaz0r 09-24-04, 12:22 PM	You're assuming that all magical armor special abilities are force based, which is incorrect. Heavy Fortification is not specified as a [Force] effect. It's merely a magical effect. It cannot be rendered inactive by a Force weapon.
hobbit_killer 09-24-04, 01:09 PM	I am not assuming anything. Read the argument up until this point. One of the main arguments against brilliant energy bypassing fortification is that it is a force effect. If that is taken as fact, then a force weapon has a chance to dispel it. Notice that I bolded "if". I realize the only mention of fortification being a force effect is in its flavor text and that no force based spell is listed in its creation (though limited wish could technically mimic one). The argument is tenuous at best and I only present it to show the original poster that those who disagree with brilliant energy bypassing fortification are giving him a way (according to their arguments) a way to bypass it in a different way. You can argue that fortification is not a force effect and you would have a valid point, but then don't use it to your advantage when it suits you and dimiss it when it doesn't. My personal opinion is that the fortification enhancement should not be absolute and their should be ways (short of a targeted dispel) to bypass it. I think that the feat Deft Strike, the spell Find the Gap, the brilliant energy enhancement and force weapons can or have a chance to bypass fortification.
eRaz0r 09-24-04, 01:38 PM	Wrong - they're saying that Heavy Fortification is a magical effect. Bracers of Armor is a force effect. Read it again. Fortification is an unspecified magical effect. It is not bypassed by Brilliant Energy because the BE weapon doesn't bypass the magical effects of the armor. (Actually - I think someone does say it was a force effect - they're wrong. It's just a magical effect.) (edit - let me add, I agree that Heavy Fortification shouldn't be the end of all sneak attacks. But there currently isn't anything that does bypass it directly, AFAIK.)
Enoch Van Garret 09-24-04, 01:46 PM	Heavy Fortification is not a physical property of the armor. It is a magical ability granted to the wearer of the armor, similar to how a suit of Soulfire armor grants the wearer immunity to death attacks and level drain.
hobbit_killer 09-24-04, 01:53 PM	Wrong - they're saying that Heavy Fortification is a magical effect. Bracers of Armor is a force effect. Read it again. Fortification is an unspecified magical effect. It is not bypassed by Brilliant Energy because the BE weapon doesn't bypass the magical effects of the armor. (Actually - I think someone does say it was a force effect - they're wrong. It's just a magical effect.) (edit - let me add, I agree that Heavy Fortification shouldn't be the end of all sneak attacks. But there currently isn't anything that does bypass it directly, AFAIK.) We are saying the same thing here. When I said "you" I did not mean you specifically, I meant the ambiguos you that everyone knows but has never really met. ;)
Aerk 09-24-04, 02:37 PM	However, Rouges get UMD and can bypass the heavy fortification via a targetted Dispel Magic / Greater Dispel Magic. I like heavy fortification the way it is because it is the only way a fighter type has a chance against a rouge type - but the rouge still has many more possible tricks in his bag that he can use, thanks to UMD and the rouge's other (very) useful skills. I think one balance for it would be that you can only apply the types of fortification to their armor types - max light fortification on light armor, medium on medium, heavy on heavy. This would help make up for the fact that wearing full plate mail at high levels is an extremely bad idea for PCs, by attaching some award to it - you can have a 100% chance to negate criticals and sneak attacks. It also cracks down on the +1 mithril bucklers of heavy fortification I see running around :)
Aceon 09-24-04, 04:24 PM	I think it is safe to go by the actual rule statement here: When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. There is nothing ambiguous here. Also, even if the armor produce a "force effect" which it does not, since a heal spell and a fireball are both magical forces that are NOT force effects. A thing is not a "force effect" in D&D unless it is so NAMED, but even if it were a force effect there is nothing in the description that would indicate that brilliant energy bypasses the fortification. There is however a very clear statement: When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
boskone 09-25-04, 11:22 PM	Well, by that logic, the various elemental effects aren't blocked by elemental resistances; they are given elemental names, and require elemental spells, but it never actually gives an elemental resistance. Obviously, for instance, Flaming isn't actually flame blade, flame strike, or fireball, as it does different damage, or it's damage differently. Would you say that Resist Energy/Fire would cancel the damage, based on the fluff of the Flaming special ability? X Fortification quite clearly says in the DMG, "...produces a magical force <emphasis added> that protects..."; neither Fireball nor Heal says anything about "magical forces". Ergo, if you believe that Flaming is countered by RE/F, based on a purely fluff description, it follows that Fortification is countered by the Force weapon ability, also based on the fluff text.
eRaz0r 09-27-04, 01:54 PM	Sorry, but it specifically says "force effects" are a separate category with their own rules. Magical forces != "force effect". The Flaming description says "fire damage" and "fire energy" which is specifically what resistance:fire applies to. Just as spells have the [element] in their descriptor, magical items are explicit as to what types of effects they include. If Fortification were a "force" effect it would say "This is a force effect" or similar, such as it does for Beads of Force ("sending forth a burst that deals 5d6 points of force damage..."). Furthermore, an items prerequisites give you a clue...Miracle or Wish implies it's not a simple Force effect which can be bypassed. It's a very powerful ability with no easy counter. If it were merely a Force effect, then it would probably have Wall of Force as it's prerequisite.
DragonsArt 09-27-04, 05:24 PM	There's an enchantment bonus in the Arms and Equipment, FORCE, that can DISRUPT force effects... like bracers of armor, etc. Would it disrupt the force effect of fortification?
Arkat 09-28-04, 11:56 AM	There's an enchantment bonus in the Arms and Equipment, FORCE, that can DISRUPT force effects... like bracers of armor, etc. Would it disrupt the force effect of fortification? I think some people are having trouble distinguishing between the words enhancement and enchantment. Enchantment is a generic/broad/general term while enhancement is VERY specific. All enhancements are enchantments BUT not all enchantments are enhancements. Keeping these differences in mind and after a careful reading of the description for Brilliant Energy, it seems to me a Brilliant Energy weapon would bypass Armor and enhancement (+1, +2, +3, etc.) bonuses but not enchantments like Fortification.
Qaetar 09-28-04, 12:45 PM	I think some people are having trouble distinguishing between the words enhancement and enchantment. Enchantment is a generic/broad/general term while enhancement is VERY specific. Well, if you're gonna nitpick, I'm gonna nitpick you... Actually... Enchantment Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. All enchantments are mind-affecting spells. Two types of enchantment spells grant you influence over a subject creature. Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses). Most magic armor and shields only have enhancement bonuses. Such items can also have one or more of the special abilities detailed below. (Goes into Special Ability table) So actually, things such as flaming, frost, holy, etc. are Special Abilities. A +x to a weapon or shield is an Enhancement Bonus. The spell Charm Person falls into the Enchantment spell school. A Screaming Bolt could be modified into a +1 frost bolt that has a +1 Enhancement bonus, the frost Special Ability, and has a Faint Enchantment aura. (Qaetar)
Arkat 09-28-04, 01:28 PM	Well, if you're gonna nitpick, I'm gonna nitpick you... Actually... So actually, things such as flaming, frost, holy, etc. are Special Abilities. A +x to a weapon or shield is an Enhancement Bonus. The spell Charm Person falls into the Enchantment spell school. A Screaming Bolt could be modified into a +1 frost bolt that has a +1 Enhancement bonus, the frost Special Ability, and has a Faint Enchantment aura. (Qaetar) I stand corrected. Thanks! :) I still say Brilliant Energy weapons don't ignore the Fortification Special Ability. :D
eRaz0r 09-28-04, 07:30 PM	There's an enchantment bonus in the Arms and Equipment, FORCE, that can DISRUPT force effects... like bracers of armor, etc. Would it disrupt the force effect of fortification? My point was that Fortification is NOT a force effect. Therefore, no. Some suggest that the words "magical force" in the description imply that it *is* a force effect. However, I don't think that it's explicit enough to qualify.