Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bleedalbeans 02-09-06, 06:06 PM	Imagine a campaign that takes place in a completely sealed maze-like underground environment; The players can't leave (this includes teleporting out) until they hit level twenty. No shops, no starting equipment (save spellbooks and holy symbols), and the only safe places are ones that the PC's make safe. Players must secure any equipment they need to use, as well as food and water they need to survive. CRs in this environment are slightly higher than normal for a fully equiped party of the same level, and in many cases chock full of traps and secret doors, many of which are deadly and tough to find (about 60% of the enviroment is accessible only through traps and secret doors). Magic Items and equipment are effectively random and very sporadic. I would figure a character that makes it to lvl 20 in said environment would have the equipment of a lvl 15 character in a normal campaign. If spells need specific high value components it is up to the party to find/make them. 90% of the population of said environment is hostile. This environment is not set in any specific campaign world. Here is the good news: Item creation is possible in certain locations with the following restrictions; you are limited to materials and tools that you can find, areas that contain forges and other necessary materials are usually unsafe and would require a large amount of work to protect for a significant period of time (more than a couple of days). Most spell components (ignore spell components that cost under 1 gold), tools, and base materials can be found, but not in large numbers, and often not until higher levels. The Really Bad News: Time is a factor. Imagine you are racing through said enviroment against other parties, racing to be the first to level 20. Now enters the party of four. They are limited to 4 or less total different classes for each character. These classes can include any combination of base classes and prestige classes as long as they don't exceed 4 total. You can use any 3.5 WotC books and any prestige classes that doesn't have prereqs that would be prohibited by the above enviroment. Also remember these characters have to be viable at nearly every level to survive this enviroment. What is your opinion of the most optimized party for this unfortunate and loaded situation?
deathwishjoe 02-09-06, 06:13 PM	whats the starting level? and Im pretty sure its quite doable. there are quite a few characters that do very well with out any outside influence.
bleedalbeans 02-09-06, 06:15 PM	Starting level is 1 of course. :D
deathwishjoe 02-09-06, 06:18 PM	ouch! there goes my divine minion MoMFs build. *goes back to the drawing board*
Gavinfoxx 02-09-06, 06:20 PM	I predict people using lots of vow of poverty cheese...
deathwishjoe 02-09-06, 06:24 PM	we using any specialrules like action points? I was think artificer while not strong early on would make a good power house player after being carried by the party for a few levels.
Otto the Bugbear 02-09-06, 06:32 PM	Sounds hostile, and fun in a wargaming sort of way. :) I'd start with a melee guy that also helps the party in other ways. The classic Fighter 1 / Cleric 4 / Prestige Paladin 5 / Fist of Raziel 10 should do nicely. Loads of healing to help the party out, while maintaining that fighter feel with a BAB of +19. Also lots of smiting, which is good in an environment of 90% hostiles. I'd focus on Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper/Combat Brute. Perhaps both if you can swing it. Craft Wondrous Item perhaps, to further boost your ability scores. Next is the skilly guy. Because it's in a dungeon, I'd stick with the rogue. Perhaps throw a little something extra in to help him survive, like Hide in Plain Sight (Shadowdancer) and Defensive Roll (Thief-Acrobat, and others. Some levels of warlock would also be a nice touch. For Arcane, I'd stick with a spontaneous caster. Dread Necromancer is pretty sick when combined with the proper feats from Libris Mortis (a book I don't own, so I can't comment further). Dread Necromancer 10 / Fiend-Blooded 10 for some killer extra spells known. Alternatively you could do Dread Necro 8 / Fatespinner 2 / Fiend-Blooded 10. (NOTE: This relies on a reasonable DM changing the F-B's skill rank requirement for Know: Planes. Check out the sample characters for backup on this one.) For the divinity, a cleric is golden. Specifically a cleric with Radiant Servant of Pelor. I'd stay away from Divine Metamagic: Persistant and instead take DM: Quicken. The other thing I'd consider is the Archivist. Though I would lean away from it considering the whole spellbook aspect. Plus, domains can help make up the difference. Travel should be a good one for this, perhaps luck as well. Cheers Otto :)
Erudite 02-09-06, 06:41 PM	Elan Warlock 1-20. This character can, as an Elan Warlock, survive under these conditions indefinitely. No need for food or water, weapons or ammunition. When you get Dark Discorporation, life gets quite good. Adding in a level of Mindbender for Telepathy is nice. Taking 2 levels of Chameleon at levels 13 and 14 will net you a floating feat that allows you to make almost any magical item, including Contingent Spells. You might also think about a Warforged Artificer 1-20. An Artificer can turn almost any magical trap or equipment into any other magical item, so resources become less vital. Cheers, Erudite
swanyusd 02-09-06, 06:41 PM	I kind of like the idea of monk2/cleric4/prestige paladin3/kensai 10/cleric5-6. This nets you cleric casting of level 8, wis for casting and ac, cha for saves, as well as concentration for a reflex save. This character doesnt really need armor, and you only need a starting weapon that is decent, or find a mw anything and enchant it yourself via kensai. Survivable for sure. If you wanted, start off as a cleric4, then go from there. Cleric spells are very useful, although they would run out. Divine metamagic persistent spell is ur friend here. Edit: I have to also agree with the warforged artificer 1-20. The fact that you can take ANY magical item, albeit powerful or worthless, and craft it into something useful for your party is HUGE. I also like the elan warlock1-20 as well. Being able to blast baddies all day long is critical for your party, especially since you may not have ammunition or proper weapons to defend "safe zones". I also will mention a sorcerer 1-20, with any full casting PrCs as you see fit. The various mansion/hut spells are great for party resting, because they are safe spots to do so. Include illusions and walls of force to further make your safe zones safer. Rogue seems nice, but I think the artificer does the dungeon rogue stuff better. I suppose that depends on how you play it. Note: I'm extremely jealous. This sounds like a very fun game to play. I had a similar concept a while back but with running a war-like campaign where the party gets very little time to rest and re-arm between conflicts, and they are always getting hard pressed by an overwhelming number. Very fun stuff. Hope you have a good time playing!
UMiskatonic 02-09-06, 06:50 PM	There are a number of World's Largest Dungeon Threads, you'll find a lot of useful things within. Common themes include: wizards are lame, if they can't learn new spells. it's important to find/make safety you need to be able to use what you find don't count on getting that XXX magic item PrC's that require an organization won't work. Common builds include: Warlock of some kind. Unlimited blasting. Half-fey is my personal favorite. Warforged something. A guy who doesn't sleep is your sentry for the people that do. Listen and Spot are critical. Fighter of some kind. Stick with Power Attack (good with anything) and stay away from Imp. Critical (weapon specific) Vow of Poverty monk. Doesn't need anything. At all. More gear for everyone else.
bleedalbeans 02-09-06, 06:55 PM	It's a resounding no to VoP for this. Sorry I forgot to put that down. It makes the challenge less challengeish. Action points are a no as well. But you can use the stuff from Eberron if you nix the action point stuff.
Noria Merfolk Mage 02-09-06, 07:13 PM	Dungeon World, from Fast Forward Entertainment, by any chance?? Incarnum might be worth looking into. A Totemist would work pretty well in this setup.
NinjaDebugger 02-09-06, 07:34 PM	Why not add a Psion(Shaper) to the mix? Even at low levels, if you're willing to take a risk, he can contribute amazing amounts of power via Psionic Minor Creation, and he can grab whatever temporary equipment you need via Call Item. Add on Astral Construct and Augmented Construct and you've got someone who can contribute to combat -and- provide whatever equipment you need.
WarDragon 02-09-06, 08:33 PM	Exactly like a standard party, except everyone takes Vow of Poverty. Problem solved.
Seeker of Undeath 02-09-06, 09:14 PM	I think this is one of the few places in which a Psiforged Soulknife might actually get along pretty well. A few points in craft to fix yourself up and you should be good to go. I might even recommend a Psiforged Soulknife5/Egoist5/Slayer10. Obviously you'll want to play with the ratio to suit, but that seemed to balance manifesting with having some of the more functional mindblade options. If you absolutely hate the whole mindblade thing, just try an Egoist10/Slayer10. It works fairly well. ^_^
Rokku 02-09-06, 09:19 PM	I think the only class that can operate largely without equipment that has yet to be mentioned here is the Druid. So here I am, mentioning it. Straight out Druid 20 should do quite well in this environment.
xerofire 02-09-06, 10:44 PM	If you have an artificer his goal is to at some point build a Uses/day item of Fabricate, and Major Creation. you'll have what ever you need including after combat healing with vats of alchemical healing salve. Suggesting the Warlock, Artificer, Combat Clericx2 grouping
Cormulan 02-09-06, 10:58 PM	Psychic Warrior focussed on Claws of the Beast would make a decent tank-type too.
xerofire 02-09-06, 11:09 PM	Right now I'm running a game where all the characters are warforged. They'd get through the dungeon real fast. Always alert, can take refuge in places other creatures can't (poisonous, diseased, under water) resistant to some crits. unfortunately no low light or dark vision, so get a light asap. But you're always armed even if all your stuff is taken. Warforged Warlock with Mithril Body; can see in the dark and see invisible enemies! Warforged Artificer Warforged Shaper Warforged Psywarrior. And make an item of Prestidigitation unlimited duration item (1000 gp market price only 500 in raw materials) This little item is the handiest item you will have ever had if you go back to Tome and blood and just read their suggestion on what you can do with a prest. spell. One thing is the ability to alter the shape of 8 oz of material and its cleaning properties which are instantanious types of spell effects sp the changes stay. Warp open locked doors, chests, jam hinges shut then return them to usefulness when you want to block doorways. Light fires, light moltov cocktails, flashlight, sound maker. refine gems you find into perfectly clear regular stones (gemcutting to get the facets) use with craft sculpting to turn gems into art objects (finished goods = 3xraw materials) use to bribe/ buy favors from magical monsters you find. but the basic idea is [found gem] -> [Max value for its type]-> [use as raw material to triple its market value] Blue quartz 4d4gp type -> 16 gp -> 48 gp Blue quartz statue of a water elemental.,..
Neeek 02-09-06, 11:30 PM	Elan Warlock is probably a good idea. Druid, also. Melee-focused DM cleric of cheating would be good. Supermount Halfling Paladin/etc.
Firion 02-09-06, 11:42 PM	If this is anything like World's Largest Dungeon, then trapfinding is a must. The ability to find/disable traps will greatly help the party's chances of survival.
deathwishjoe 02-10-06, 07:57 PM	well there are a few problems that need to be overcome before a party can hope to survive in a situation like this. 1. no towns to buy things that there gonna want or need to survive. (food, magic items, utility equipment) 2. no safe places to sleep at night. 3. no starting equipment. 4. traps, traps and more traps the real doozy seems to be number three. a level one character with out a weapon or armor is really going to have a hard time taking on challenges for characters fully equiped an dhigher level. theres just not much on can optimize with this. Alot will depend on luck untill level 5. number one can be gotten around with divine spells for the food and water, an artificer with the right creation spells can make any magic item they need in the places allowed and fabricate (or craft: whatever) and minor creation will cover most of the rest when it comes to utilitiy items. as for number two you can get around this with rope trick and the mansion series spells. number four can be gotten around with a good trap monkey and a few summons to walk in front of them. Ill be posting my builds in a few
nittanytbone 02-10-06, 08:08 PM	Step 1: Create four social/disguise rogues (or warlocks, or bards, you get the idea) Step 2: Level up until you can take levels of assassin. Step 3: Find other parties. Step 4: Kill them. Step 5: Find a bunch of rats. Kill them for 1 XP at a time until you hit level 20. :cool:
fnord 02-10-06, 08:19 PM	Warlock as others have said, is vital. One more trick to play with Warlock: have somebody take the Spellfire Wielder feat. This gives you unlimited out of combat healing for the whole party.
Malakai_Demonos 02-10-06, 09:44 PM	One answer, undead servants. They do not sleep or eat and never complain, and all of those badies' bodies are just asking to be put to good use. This will help with the zone control. -The main problem would be the onyx required, but use xerofire's gem making idea and that is fine. -The dread necro is the master of undead, can command and make more and those they make get +4 str, +4dex, and an effective +4con(+2 hp per hd) -Combine this with the feats from liberious mortis and the joy happens (like another +4str and +2 hp per hd, as well as nat armor I believe. Also a monk is pry the default character here; some argue, but strait up monk till 11th level is pretty nice, then some other prest class Have fun.
Tweedledope 02-10-06, 09:53 PM	My DM used to run worlds like this back in 2nd Ed (and still does today and they are SO much fun). I found that the best characters for these sorts of campaigns are those that can hide and hide good. I would take a look at the Skulk race from the Races of Destiny and perhaps something that will allow you to pass through walls or into the floor. With this, I would suggest a standard rogue build. If your enemy can't find you, then you can't be killed. I really like hiding in campaigns like this. If that's not your cup of tea, I would go with the Artificer idea and possibly go as a Warforged Artificer (that way you don't have to sleep and can watch over your resting party members safely). Don't forget the substitution levels either, they're perfect. ;) -=TD=-
EVILFOX 02-10-06, 10:57 PM	Elan monk 1 / rogue 19 (ascetic rogue) Warforged cleric (cleric 5/divine oracle 2/10 horus-re/contemplative1/prestige paladin 2) Shifterdruid (druid 20) Human Sorcerer (sorcerer 6/incantatrix 10 /Recaster4) from the top of my head is this..i'm still working.. EDITED : took out the mono, inside joke at my group
Quenditar 02-10-06, 11:21 PM	How's an artificer supposed to work in this environment? As I understand the concept, there will be no raw materials for making magic items.
DisposableHero_ 02-10-06, 11:24 PM	Psionics jump to mind for a number of reasons: 1) No material components, no spellbooks - The self sufficiency of a psion provides a caster type without reliance on specifically tailored materials, which will adapt well to this challenge 2) Psychic Reformation - You can't customize your gear to your party but to some extent you can customize you party to your gear. Find an awsome bow, you can reform a combat type until he is a master of its use. Find a run of useful wands, reform some characters with cross class UMD ranks to let them get utility from them, the list goes on. 3) Inertial Armor - Its often a tough choice for a manifester weather they want to wear armor or use inertial armor, anything that replaces a magical item you can't count on is handy. As mentioned before, you'll want to look at classes that duplicate the effects of magic items you can't count on having, or those that don't require magic items to be effective. Warlock has already been mentioned, but other less common classes like the soulknife, or the incarnum classes will function in the same manner they usually do where more item dependant classes will be hampered by the conditions.
AramilWindwalker 02-10-06, 11:45 PM	druid20 monk20 psion20 ninja20 I would recomend goblins, since they are hard to sense in the low levels and fun as heck in the high levels.... flavor with PrCs to taste this entire party has little to no reliance on items for almost the entire time and has an 'arcane caster' essentialy, as well as the druid(tank/buffer/healer), monk(tank/scout with ninja), and ninja(trapmonkey, scout)
NotBruce 02-11-06, 12:28 AM	well here would be my plan of attack. a race to lvl 20 so time is a factor here and (in general) using exp to make magic items seems counter productive. well here is my idea warforged soulknife (main ftr) (all he needs is a good set of armor) warforged artificer(traps and equipment) warforged warlock (blast all day long) warforged druid (with a twist) (all with craft repair warforged) My plan would be to go the first few lvls slow taking time to repair self (with back up spells) then as soon as possible the artificer makes a rod of persistent spell then the druid uses it to persistent spell the party with vigor (heal 1 hp per round) the idea from here on out is to spend 24/7 on fighting and pit-stops for a few min to get up to full hp. I cant remember right now (I do not hat the eberron book right now) but how dose the armor restrictions go with warforged? This is not a rp party its aim is to be a all day fighting force, agents a tough monster take your time and widdle him down. Be like a wolf pack, take your time in tactical movement until your opponent is weak and move in for the kill. if vow of poverty was allowed all human monk1/druid19 (3 of them) (I do not know if they revised this feat in 3.5 but have them all take the feat that allows spell casting while wild shaped) rogue20 (maybe splash some prc fun in but the full on rogue can a worthy build) all with the VoP cheese
Gnarl 02-11-06, 04:22 AM	I think you can do about anything you want. The only thing is, you'll have to rely a lot on each other in such a hostile environment. I'd go with a Cleric, Wizard, Rogue and Fighter. The party wizard will probably save the day during your first encounter. Mage Armor on the fighter or cleric (strange, instead of himself), and Sleep will come in handy. As soon as the fighter gets his armor and weapon, things will get slightly easier. Make sure your rogue is alive. Keep your cleric alive too. An Elf generalist wizard with the collegiate wizard would certainly help. With 3 extra spells per level, he's pretty sure to have most things he needs. Sleep (for the first encounter), Mage Armor (poor fighter needs a decent AC) and Rope Trick will help a lot. I wouldn't bother too much with item creation feats. Without any towns, it's unlikely that you will ever find all the components to make your items.
Lilt 02-11-06, 05:31 AM	I reccommend at-least 1 warlock. Take the Summon Swarm Invocation and you'll be the most powerful character in the party for the first 4 levels (1d6 damage with no attack roll or save to enemies in 4 contiguous 5ft squares, plus a save versus nauseation for 1 round, plus 1 damage per round thereafter or other secondary effects by swarm type). Warlocks can generally get by with nothing but an OK suit of light armor, although they can put spare charisma/dex items to good use. They can also make any item from level 12 and take 10 on UMD checks allowing them to use any items the party come across well and reliably. Druid is solid as long as you're allowed summons. All they really need are periapts of wisdom. If your DM allows you to craft your own stuff then you can perhaps even make wilding clasps and similar. I advise against monk unless you're sure you won't be getting armor for the rest of the party. Monk isn't a character who needs no equipment, he's a character who needs bracers of armor, periapts of wisdom, gloves of dex, belt of strength, ETC to be effective rather than +X weapons and +X armor. Take a skilled trapmonkey. They can eventually multiclass and are somewhat free to as long as they have Able Learner (RoD). Able Learner also allows you to take Chameleon later, which is an awesome PrC when what you're going to be fighting may change from day to day (as it almost always does). Take at-least one character who can use whatever armor you find. There's nothing worse than finding a suit of +2 Full Plate and not being able to use it. Clerics are a good choice for this. Take at-least one character who can use any martial weapon. Same reason as above. Take one or two characters with good UMD scores. Although you can't guarantee finding items, you don't want to be stuck with wands/staffs/scrolls that you can't use. Take at-least one Chameleon character, because they're extremely versatile.
borg2 02-11-06, 07:41 AM	I'd suggest rather than monk1/druid 19, go ninja 1/druid 19 - you get trapfinding, and if the traps are as prevelent as they sound, you'll need it. Grab races/classes with darkvision (dwarves, orcs etc) as base races - not being able to see sucks! Biiiiig vote for warlocks - and "the dead walk" will help out (waste not, want not). So (some of these builds may be rough - from memory): cw ninja 2/druid 5/daggerspell shifter 10 [iaido focus, quickdraw] cw ninja 2/druid 5/daggerspell shifter 10 [iaido focus, quickdraw] rogue 1/19 warlock [maxed out UMD] cw ninja 1/cleric 8 (of shaundakul)/windwalker 3/mystic wanderer 1/windwalker 7 [either archer or Base theory - everyone gets trapfinding. Rapid reconnoitre would be a great feat. Three of the party can cast healing (maybe get spontaneous healing feat for druids). All the wis based characters get wis->ac bonus without armour (but not evasion). Warlock uses sneak attack with her blasts when flanking. The two druids use ghost step (swift) to sudden strike opponents (and get into flanking positions for the warlock) - add to that iaido focus damage (must use a drawn weapon, like a dagger). Get two weapon fighting if you can afford the feats, iaido focus isn't limited to a single attack or particular weapon - so long as opponent is flat footed and you draw the weapon first. Once they can shapechange, they'll have access to flying forms for mobility. The cleric gets wis to ac from ninja (and trapfinding), full bab & spell casting from windwalker+ air walk (mobility), permanent feather fall etc., + chr to ac from mystic wanderer. Go either two handed weapon & PA, or bow. The warlock is the main caster - you may want to skip the rogue level, but it does add skill points, and 1d6 to her blasts when flanking. The design of this party is to punch way above their weight level (especially at the low levels). You don't want to use resources on protracted fights. Main tactics are win inititive (duh) or ambush through stealth, druids swift ghost step to the biggest bad guy, two weapon sudden strike iaido damage from each of them (trying to get the bbg flanked from the warlocks position). Cleric tanks and protects warlock, warlock blasts. As they go up levels, add in more battlefield control spells and buffing from all of them. Stealth is important, and Able Learner would pay off dividends because of the ninja skill list. Races - low LA is important, you are already behind the power curve. Maybe tieflings? So - in essence, a tiefling ninja clan, on a family outing... ;)
Fingers Boggis 02-11-06, 09:37 AM	sorry borg unless theres been an errata release Ive missed your warlock wont be getting sneak attack from range Sounds like a great game, bearing in mind the great post from Lilt Id go: Half-elf bard: sub level allows you to "beat" an encounter without coming to blows, great if you're low on equipment. Maybe grab a rogue level and able learner before going Chameleon (i think half elves can get the PrC tho I might be wrong, no books with me atm, even if they cant i might try to persuade the DM :)) Elan Warlock: you're blasting, crafting and never sleeping or eating. Plus warlocks are pretty survivable characters for arcane casters Warforged Artificer: Very self sufficient, not sleeping, doesnt need armour, excellent range of "spells" to help out everyone else and a trap expert Dwarven Cleric: Tank it up, take a varient with no cha penalty though turn undead can be used either to fuel divine feats or at low levels against undead encounters it'll probably proove a life saver. Fingers
borg2 02-11-06, 10:13 AM	Out of curiosity, why doesn't the warlock get sneak attack bonus on eldritch blast if it within the 30' sneak attack range?
system breaker 02-11-06, 10:26 AM	Out of curiosity, why doesn't the warlock get sneak attack bonus on eldritch blast if it within the 30' sneak attack range? Well, the Warlock does get to sneak attack if his opponent is within 30 ft and flatfooted, however, ranged attacks like eldritch blast do not threaten surrounding squares. Thus even if the warlock was in what would normally be a flanking position he wouldn't get to add sneak attack damage with his eldritch blast.
Fingers Boggis 02-11-06, 11:00 AM	Well, the Warlock does get to sneak attack if his opponent is within 30 ft and flatfooted, however, ranged attacks like eldritch blast do not threaten surrounding squares. Thus even if the warlock was in what would normally be a flanking position he wouldn't get to add sneak attack damage with his eldritch blast. What he said :) the rogue warlock combination still works pretty well though, with enough skill point in sneaky skills you can usually get some surprise going down Fingers
AramilWindwalker 02-11-06, 11:07 AM	however a flanking hideous blow would apply sneak attack.
Lord Zeb 02-11-06, 12:21 PM	So self-sufficiency is the key..hmm. I think I'd like a party that looks something like this: (using Savage Species type progression) Thri-Kreen Ranger 6/Dervish10 Elan Cleric 20 Psiforged Soulknife 20 Warforged Artificer 20
Tweedledope 02-11-06, 01:15 PM	however a flanking hideous blow would apply sneak attack. And provoke an attack of opportunity correct?
fnord 02-11-06, 01:32 PM	There appear to be a lot of Artificer fans, but I'm not sure Artificer would be good in this case. While you'll get lots of craft reserve from traps, finding materials and a safe place to work will be tough.
lostone 02-12-06, 11:09 AM	No shops, no starting equipment (save spellbooks and holy symbols), and the only safe places are ones that the PC's make safe. Players must secure any equipment they need to use, CRs in this environment are slightly higher than normal for a fully equiped party of the same level, Magic Items and equipment are effectively random and very sporadic. That right there sounds to me like you're pretty effectively screwed. The CR system makes the assumption that the group is properly equipped for their level. So without equipment the monster's CR is already effectively higher, and then the DM is making it higher still? Ouch. I second the suggestion of everyone taking VoP. It will eliminate the need to stop and create magic items which means less guarding an area like sitting ducks. Also IIRC at one point VoP eliminates the need for food or water. I'd stick with a more or less iconic group, allow multi-classing and prestige classes, but optimize each so they can still fill the stereotypical roles. I'd say pick a gish build for the wizard that still has 18 or 19 caster level by level 20. For the tank go with a fighter/barb multiclass. Cleric 20 FTW. Rogue 20 is all I can think of, although I'm sure there are good dungeoncrawling prestige classes for it. But naturally the rogue will be the trapmonkey and probably ranged sneak attacks are safest, grab as many throwing knives/darts as you can find. Or make a sling and use pebbles you find.
Neeek 02-12-06, 11:44 AM	How about some sort of party-buffer type? Maybe a cleric/bard/marshal with Divine Vigor, the Dex/Init increasing aura, at 6th, Sacred Healing, that sort of thing?
bleedalbeans 02-12-06, 12:20 PM	I think the main basic challenge will be surviving the first four or so levels, and then the last four or so levels. Those areas seem to be the most equipment dependant levels in the game. In the early game it's because you have NO equipment, and thus an encounter with some orcs becomes an actual threatening experience, until you kill them and grab their weapons, just don't get yourself killed over a battle axe. Of course you could sneak up on some monsters when they're otherwise occupied and kill them in their sleep or attack with magic and improvised weapons until you managed to find some basic equipment. After that you can fight if you have to and depend on your wits the rest of the time. As for the later levels, it really comes down to how well you managed in the first part of the campaign, if you didn't lose anyone, and managed to either accumulate a decent amount of items, or figure out a way to make the items you want, you should be about as well off as any other group of a similar level. But if you have a very equipment defficient party you will be up for some serious challenges from high CR encounters. Here's what I was cooking up for a party: The Fighter-Type: The Paladin would really come in handy thanks to Detect Evil, as he becomes your mobile radar. A Psychic Warrior wouldn't be too bad if you got some good versatile power and feat picks in. A Hexblade might be fun, but I'm not sure how viable they are at higher levels. The Skill-Type: Someone with trapfinding is a must, as well as having a high search, spot, disable device, and open lock. Probably also move silently and hide as would be nice as well. I had a couple of ideas for this, kinda depending on what the player wanted. For full optimizing I would go (race w/ darkvision) rogue1 w/Able Learner and then some levels of Ranger w/ the favored terrain rule from unearthed arcana to give him a stupid amount of bonuses while in this underground hellhole, then either go ranged or TWF depending on what you want from the character. Just make sure you keep those skills maxxed. Also a Spell thief would be cool, at a certain level couldn't they absorb spells from traps on a successful save? That could make traps a resource instead of a hinderence. Ninja's and Scouts are also cool, I think we're gonna trade the Scout's Ride skill to disable device so he's not totally lame, so if you wanted to do that you could. The Divine-Type: Basically I think the Druid is kinda hosed in this enviroment. It has been ruled (by the DM) that you can't polymorph or wildshape or summon a monster or animal that you haven't seen before (the DM take into account that some animals are common enough that all the players know about them and you can add templates to animals if you've seen the template before), so the Druid isn't totally neutered but it makes it a little harder to get the most out of him. So Druids are possible, but Clerics are probably the first choice the group should look at. Basically even a Cleric 20 is awesome, so I won't say much else other than...uhm...Clerics heal good. The Arcaneish-Type: Warlock seems to be popular, so maybe I should look into that more, I was thinking either a Sorceror, Dread Necro, Psion, or perhaps someone from Incarnum. I like the Sorceror because if he picks the right spells he can be EXTREMELY helpful not only in combat, but troubleshooting, like getting over the lava pit, or throwing up walls and generally just being helpful. The Warlock would be fun because he's hardy and doesn't need components really, but he's not so great at troubleshooting, he mostly just shoots things. Psions don't need components either, but they can run out of Power Points. Psions make great blasters, and they can be pretty adaptable as well, but probably not quite as adaptable as Sorcerors. The Dread Necro would be fun but would be the most dependent on components (well probably) and also fairly narrow in his focus. So bascially I'd go with personal preference among these picks.
Lilt 02-13-06, 08:52 AM	Is soulknife really a good idea? It strikes me that far too many people are focusing on not using equipment when really what you want to do is to make the best use of the equipment you have. No shops means that you can't sell anything, but you'll still be finding equipment around unless the DM's being extremely harsh. No shops means no trade means that your party might have a number of powerful weapons but be unable to use them because they're better off doing something else. Artificier is awesome, and if it weren't for one thing then I'd say they were pretty-much a must thanks to its ability to reclaim unused magic items. What stops them from being useful? Time. This is essentially a race through the dungeon against other adventurers. You can't spend 36 days crafting a +6 stat booster because the time spent crafting it just isn't worth the progression speed increase it grants. A Dedicated Wright Homonculous can help here, but that means an initial week-long downtime (4 days to craft the body and 3 days to enchant) and after that people are going to be needing to get their orders in quickly. You'll also need somewhere for it to work, like in a Heward's Handy Haversack which takes another 3 days to make. Although I do not doubt that you could make a more effective party using a few Dedicated Wrights to craft a range of equipment for them, I suspect it's possible to successfully traverse the dungeon without it.