Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gruffmug 05-23-06, 09:53 PM	Ok, here is the situation. A duel is about to take place from warriors of rival schools. The mage blade clan vs the Order of the sharpened mind. The oppenents are masters of thier craft LVL 15. Each will be to allowed to buff before combat. The combatants are an Human wizard 5, fighter 2, ELDRITCH KNIGHT 8 (BAB 12, Bonus feats 5 caster lvl 12 (Practiced)) vs a Human Psiwarrior 15 (BAB 11, bonus feats 5, manifestor 15). They battle for the right to called the preeminit school of (gish) combat and spobsorship from the King. As well as a flock of new students and HONOR for the school Both PC leap into combat, psiwarrior win intiative and charges in and delivers a staggering blow, The eldritch knight sudden quickens major globe and the psiwarrior is a normal man. A blood bath insues as the giant sized eldritch warrior lights up arcane strike. I was stunned. Is it true augmented powers only count as thier base power level? The psiwarriors was left with oakbody as his only active power. It stood no chance vs the arcane caster higher level buffs. So, Can anyone tell me a tactic to use in this situation? Can psyic warrior ever stand up to a buffed eldritch knight in this situation? Can anyone optimize a psiwarrior to win this fight? Tell me it anit so! Gruffmug
temillion 05-23-06, 10:13 PM	Psionic Lion’s Charge + Psionic Weapon + Psionic Greater Weapon + Improved Int + Weapon Focus X + Power Attack is a great way to start off the battle. On the following round following up with a Dissolving Weapon maxed out couldn't hurt. Another option is to hit him right off the bat with a Dispel and take down his magical items.
Gruffmug 05-23-06, 10:41 PM	Against a buffed knight with a major globe up psionic lions charge doesn't work neither does a dissolving weapon. Customer service says that augmented power are counted as base level for purposes of spell turning an globes of invulnerbility. So, all of the psionic buffs are nullified when melee is engaged against a eldricth knight in a glode. So, I guess you could power attack with unavoided stike. But, it seems to pale in comparion to a wraith striking, arcane striking, gaint sized eldritch knight. I thought that EK(negate psions, tranparent) would be useful, but it is a wasted action in a duel. It can only be targeted at the globe, leaving the knights buffs intact. I am looking for a way to win this duel. any help? This is a melee contest, so flying and ranged attacks are limited to early combat. This duel is to show who is a better melee/magical combatant. Gruffmug
temillion 05-23-06, 10:52 PM	Wait a sec though. Unless I'm mistaken combat doesn't start off with the buffs on. Seeing as he didn't dip into spellsword the odds are that the psionic warrior has the better AC. If this starts out with prebuffs then I've got to bring you back to the dispel. Zap the defenses and then melee him to death.
NoldorForce 05-23-06, 10:59 PM	Good news! The globe does nothing to you:Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser [Spell Stat Block] An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower. The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the lesser globe of invulnerability. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe. Excluded effects include spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from items. However, any type of spell can be cast through or out of the magical globe. Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast. The globe can be brought down by a targeted dispel magic spell, but not by an area dispel magic. You can leave and return to the globe without penalty. Globe of Invulnerability [Spell Stat Block] This spell functions like lesser globe of invulnerability, except that it also excludes 4th-level spells and spell-like effects.(Underlining emphasis mine) As written, both globe spells merely prohibit such effects newly coming into effect within the emanation's radius. So this just means you can't use your buffs or attack powers while in the 10' radius effect...something you shouldn't need to care about. Show the given line to whoever your opponent is-things will probably change.
Subedei 05-23-06, 11:03 PM	This reminds me of how incredibly important counterspells are in duels.
Gruffmug 05-23-06, 11:09 PM	The SRD says that it suppresses spell effects while in the area of effect. The Players even gives an example of a mirror image being suppressed will in the area. Note that spell effects are not disrupted unless their effects enter the globe, and even then they are merely suppressed, not dispelled. Yup, it looks like the only chance for a psiwarrior or for that matter a Duskblade are made minch meat by the true gish! Dispell would be the only way to go, but the negate psionics would target the globe of invulnerbility not the knight. Giving up the intiative to a fullly buffed knight. Gruffmug
Subedei 05-23-06, 11:14 PM	Plus any smart arcane gish is going to have Duel Ward or some other such effect up. Why? Because he's nothing without his buffs and the only way to remove them is spells.
stembolt 05-23-06, 11:48 PM	Doesn’t Globe exclude any spells affecting the caster as well? That and sudden quicken takes 7 feats.
rilem 05-24-06, 12:32 AM	Seriously, seven feats. For a 1/day Quicken. This guy's has invested more than half his total feats for this one specific duel (facing an opponent who you know has no decent offensive 5th level powers). If you metagame, of course you're going to have an advantage.
NoldorForce 05-24-06, 01:24 AM	Hmm...assuming you buff yourself properly (ie, Expansion), you could use Stand Still or Knock-Down (abusive feats that they are) to keep your opponent at a range greater than the 10' radius of the Globe-not too difficult. Heck, given Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis) in addition to augmented Expansion, you could use this combination to keep your foe well out of reach, while still smacking him. That may be a few feats for you to use up, but they're more versatile than his seven feats to on-the-fly quicken a single spell. Expansion can be manifested for 13 pp (within your limit) to make you huge as a swift action, giving you 15' of reach. But you're buffing before combat, so it'll instead be 9 pp to be Huge for 2.5 hours. Given Metamorphosis, the right critter, and some discussion on the wording (specifically, the interaction between Expansion and Metamorphosis), you could hit Colossal or Colossal+ for size. Throw in a spiked chain (to compensate for confusion over what happens when only part of you enters the globe) or Bite of the Wolf and Claws of the Beast for spice. Note: In general, small radius (such as 10' in the case of the Globe spells) emanations tend to be less useful based on your opponent's ability to stay away from you. Thus, for something like a Globe of Invulnerability, you want to be able to keep your opponent in range, and employ any tricks (tripping, Stand Still, knight-style control, grappling) you can to do so. I'd had a similar problem to think about for an epic chameleon with an Extraordinary-Spell-Aimed AMF. My personal solution was to widen it and to grapple (my current setup, viable due to Freedom of Movement houserules) or employ Stand Still on my opponent. But with seven feats devoted to that single ability, it looks as if the Eldritch Knight doesn't have much feat capacity to use the same tactics-hence the Psychic Warrior could use them to repulsory effect.
Terraneaux 05-24-06, 02:00 AM	Anyone want to test it out? I'd be willing to run the Eldritch Knight.
Psifon 05-24-06, 11:29 AM	What are the terms of the duel? How much time does each contestant have to prepare? With a day ahead of time the EK will probably win, without this prep time, the fight is more even. Consider that the EK would be a fool to take sudden quicken as a feat. A better way to go is to take extend spell, and cast a bunch of extended 24 hour long buffs. This will give him all kinds of powers going into the thing. On the other hand, if you don't allow pre-casting, what does this fight really prove? The whole point of gish is that they are magically augmented fighters. If you don't allow prep time, then they either act as casters or as fighters, and neither one really shows much, except who got lucky against the other person's strategy. You might as well be playing rock/paper/scissors.
Psyrus 05-24-06, 03:58 PM	Hmm, cross posting... As was mentioned on the PsiBoard, this isn't really a fair fight. It should either be a Bard vs PsiWar or Wiz/EK vs Psion/Slayer. If there's no buff period, then a psionic character with Temporal Acceleration, Syncronicity, or Anticipatory Strike might have an advantage. Other psionic options could be... Ranger1/Psion6/Slayer8 BAB12, ML13, 147psp base, 7th level powers Ranger2/Psion4/Slayer9 BAB13, ML12, 126psp base, 6th level powers (for TWF) Psion5/Arachic Initiate3/Slayer7 BAB11, ML14, 170psp base, 7th level powers Ardent6/Slayer9 BAB13, ML14 (15 with PM), 170psp base, 8th level powers
ChristopherGroves 05-24-06, 04:56 PM	PsyWarrior 1 / Fighter 4 / Barb 5 / Occult Slayer 5 ;)
Sir Gummibaerchen 05-24-06, 05:11 PM	May I propose my build for the CO competition as the psionic build? You can find it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9201329&postcount=29)
stembolt 05-24-06, 10:09 PM	Inevitably differing classes are going to be advantages or disadvantaged by the terms of the contest. The real question is, what do you want to prove? What is the in game point of the exercise?
Pinky's brain 05-24-06, 10:20 PM	Against a buffed knight with a major globe up psionic lions charge doesn't workYou might want to check the duration of Psionic Lion's Charge ...
Gruffmug 05-24-06, 10:20 PM	The example was exagerated, It was basically to say hey A fully jacked up psiwarrior or psi (gish) won't stand a chance against a fully jacked arcane (gish). They could possibly against a DustBlade because of thier limited spell list, but arcane strike, wriath strike, and arcane thesis give them a great advantage. The dusk blade channel spell with a good mix of arcane thesis and easy metamagic plus X meta feats makes the channeled spell Too deadly. I was need tatics for a psi warrior/ Psi (gish) to compete in this higher level battle ground. I hate to have to begin every fight with a disspell/Negate but it appears the arena now requires it to still be viable in this field of Heavy magic bruisers. One spell pretty much negates psionics, YUCK..... as most of the most useful powers are lower So, the ideal tactics to use in a psionic duel of this nature are to either 1. schizm+improved manifestor and negate psionic followed by move action (charge) immedate action (lion's charge). It require two feats to set up but any good psi warrior WILL have EK (schizm) or Link power to aid in buffing anyways. 2. Spring attack and reach weapon, get in and get out. Hope the Knight does not have a reach weapon and karmic strike & improved trip. Psionic Gishes seem to be equally troubled by this spell in a melee engagement. Though they would do better in a spell duel but I think a arcane gish would be better, again, because of more varied and powerful options availible. Arcane thesis(PG2) is metapower on crack! The PC's in the example were not fully optimzied if they were it would be one hit dead. But fully buffed oppenents, will happen in game. At high level the bad guys WILL target PC's if they think they could interfere with thier plans, Ambushs do happen, as do duels. The question is what is psionic PC to do in these situations. Right now it appears my psiwarrior (psi warrior 6, sacred mind 6, ghost hunter 5) will be resulpting is mind to deal with high level foes. I need tatics. He was a karmic striker build but if the BEGuys start using these tatics I will get flattened as the Close, trip, and globe....... As a For the duel the psionic PC is consider advantaged on intiative because of the aboundance of powers that help in that regard. Opps forgot that spell in minatures that makes you go first......Grrrrr Gruffmug Oh, I hate the fact that psionic have no offical highten spell Gruffmug
Gruffmug 05-24-06, 10:22 PM	Nice catch pinky's brain I forgot it was an instant.. Gruffmug
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-25-06, 12:11 AM	Perhaps a better comparison would be between a Ranger1/Psion 4/Anarchic Initiate 3/Slayer 7. This build would have 12 Base attack (just like the wizard), but no bonus feats. (He'd also have 13 ML). Provided the mage is not immune to mind-affecting effects (he wouldn't have access to mind-blank at this level) the psion will ALWAYS win. Here's why: 1. Detect Hostile Intent = cannot be caught flat-footed by any creature who is not immune to mind-affecting effects. 2. Because the psion is not flat-footed, he can take immediate action in the first round (unlike the flatfooted wizard). 3. Because the psion can take immediate actions he can manifest anticipatory strike, which allows him to go first no matter what. 4. The psion has access to temporal acceleration (which is like time-stop). This allows the psi-gish to buff in combat (and without fear of counterspelling). Now, for the assumptions. We assume that the two are unbuffed when they face off, and that they are within charging distance of eachother. The psion (as described above) always goes first. In doing so, he preforms the following: 1. Expend psionic focus, charge leap attack with deep impact, sack all base attack. Since his opponent has no dex mod (he's flat-footed) and the psion is making a touch attack, our psion can deliver a leap attack with easily 10 base attack sacked. Using a deep crystal valorous great sword (at least +2 total enhancement), he can get a 8:1 return on his power attack, which means he can score at least 80 damage in the first round. If he expends two power points (as a free action) he can add another 2d6 extra damage to this attack (deep crystal quality). Finally, he adds his strength and base weapon damage in twice (due to the valorous enhancement). So that means his initial damage deals: (assuming a +1 valorous deep crystal greatsword of collision [+4 total] and 18 strength) Attack bonus: 2 base attack + 2 charging + 4 strength + 1 enhancement = +9 on a touch attack. 4d6 base + 8 STR + 2d6 untyped + 10 unnamed + 80 power attack = 119 damage. Given your build (Wiz5/Fighter 2/EK 8) you have 4 + 4d4 + 2d10 + 8d6 + Con*15. Assuming 18 Constitution that's 109 hit points (with average rolls). Conclusion: the arcane gish is KOed in 1 round, before he can even react.
Gruffmug 05-25-06, 12:35 AM	Nice, That is a nice tactic that would work, even on a prebuffed duel. The thing is In, this example the arcane gish has gaint size and bite of the were-bear granting enough hit point to survive the first strike. I want tactics that high level psionic gishes can uses vs prepared opponents. Gruffmug
Terraneaux 05-25-06, 02:30 AM	Really, its not the build thats important, because arcane magic has the support. My offer to actually run out the duel was somewhat facetious, though I'd still do it, and its just that magic has so much more support in terms of spell and feat tricks.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-25-06, 06:04 PM	Well... there's always the ol' sychronicity tricks... 3 pp gets you an unspecified readied standard action that you can use whenever you like in the initiative order. Use those actions to dispel and disrupt whatever he tries to do. Once you've beaten down all his hard earned persistant buffs (and other high level stuff) then go for him. Oh, and BTW, my trick above doesn't work if both start unbuffed... I forgot that it requires the psion to have detect hostile intent active. Oops. So yeah. But the "always go first trick" would still work, no matter how buffed the wizard was (provided he wasn't some how immune to mind-affecting effects). I think the next best option would be to use some rediculous uber troll form with fully augmented and overchannelled prescience offensive and precognition offensive to beat him into the dust. Of course he could do the same to you... but you get to go first. :cool:
Subedei 05-25-06, 06:28 PM	Celerity.