Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FromTheShadows 03-06-06, 06:38 PM	Here’s a (hopefully) unique request for the CO boards: I need help reconfiguring a template, the half-fiend in particular. Now, the reason that I’m not going to the monsters board is that the main focus of this post is the spell-like abilities; I felt that the optimizers here might be able to help me rank these potential spells in terms of usefulness and power. (In the case that I’ve misjudged horribly, could a WizO kindly aid me in moving this thread to a more appropriate board? Apologies in advance if this is the case.) The whole idea that started the changes in the template was that a player in a game of mine expressed interest in a specific fiendish heritage that the normal template didn’t really fit (namely the ‘generic evil’ spell-likes and the physical-focused stat bonuses). Now, before I go listing out the half-fiend’s normal spell-likes, here’s an important section from the SRD: Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order. According to that section, here’s what a Half-Fiend normally gains as spell-likes, including HD at which the spells are gained, which class list the spell comes from, and which level said spell is: HD 1-2: Darkness 3/day (Sor/Wiz 2) HD 3-4: Desecrate (Clr 2) HD 5-6: Unholy Blight (Evil Domain 4) HD 7-8: Poison 3/day (Clr 4) HD 9-10: Contagation (Sor/Wiz 4) HD 11-12: Blasphemy (Clr 7) HD 13-14: Unholy Aura (Clr 8), Unhallow 3/day (Clr 5) HD 15-16: Horrid Wilting (Sor/Wiz 8) HD 17-18: Summon Monster IX – fiends only (Sor/Wiz 9) HD 19-20: Destruction (Clr 9) The spell-likes of the fiendish ancestor, including uses per day and levels according to the spell-like hierarchy are as follows: At-Will Abilities: Darkness, Fly, Heat Metal, Invisibility (self only), Magic Missile, Shapechange, Telekinesis, Warp Wood 1/day Abilities: Fear, Major Image Level 1: Magic Missile (Sor/Wiz) Level 2: Darkness (Sor/Wiz), Heat Metal (Drd), Invisibility (Sor/Wiz), Warp Wood (Drd) Level 3: Fly (Sor/Wiz), Major Image (Sor/Wiz) Level 4: Fear (Sor/Wiz) Level 5: Telekinesis (Sor/Wiz) Level 6: Level 7: Level 8: Level 9: Shapechange (Sor/Wiz) The first problem that presents itself to me is that the fiend’s spell list is heavy on lower-level abilities, at least compared to the half-fiend. However, the fiend’s abilities seem to be a bit more utilitarian, and I know that spell level is not necessarily an indicator of usefulness (oh, Launch Item, why did they ever nerf you?). Here’s my current draft of the new half-fiend list (I know I should be wary of handing out at-wills, but...): HD 1-2: Darkness 3/day (Sor/Wiz 2) HD 3-4: Warp Wood (Drd 2) HD 5-6: Invisibility (self only, Sor/Wiz 2), Warp Wood 3/day (Drd 2) HD 7-8: Heat Metal 3/day (Drd 2) HD 9-10: Fear (Sor/Wiz 4), Warp Wood at will (Drd 2) HD 11-12: Fly (Sor/Wiz 3), Heat Metal at will (Drd 2) HD 13-14: Telekinesis 3/day (Sor/Wiz 5), Major Image (Sor/Wiz 3) HD 15-16: Shapechange (Sor/Wiz 9) HD 17-18: Shapechange 3/day (Sor/Wiz 9) HD 19-20: Telekinesis at will (Sor/Wiz 5) If this seems powerful, keep in mind that the player is taking a pretty significant custom penalty to help offset some of these powers. Anyways, am I missing something about how useful these spells are? I know that Shapechange can be horribly powerful, but hopefully I’ve spaced these abilities out well enough. So, anyone have any thoughts or opinions on the matter (such as a hierarchy of which spells are more useful than the others above, or ways that a clever player might take advantage of a spell that I’ve considered less useful up to this point)? Thanks in advance to anyone who feels like helping an addled DM. (Oh, and a :cookie: to anyone who guesses the species of the fiendish ancestor.) -FTS
Endarire 03-07-06, 01:35 AM	Shapechange seems quite much, and it is probably worth a lot more than telekinesis at will. -EE
FromTheShadows 03-07-06, 03:16 PM	Shapechange seems quite much, and it is probably worth a lot more than telekinesis at will. -EE Hrm, probably should've seen that coming. I'll limit shapechange to 1 use at HD 17-18 then, add in self-only invisibility at will, and bump up warp wood/heat metal, making the spell list as such: HD 1-2: Darkness 3/day (Sor/Wiz 2) HD 3-4: Warp Wood (Drd 2) HD 5-6: Invisibility (self only, Sor/Wiz 2), Warp Wood 3/day (Drd 2) HD 7-8: Heat Metal 3/day (Drd 2), Magic Missile (Sor/Wiz 1) HD 9-10: Fear (Sor/Wiz 4), Invisibility at will (self only, Sor/Wiz 2) HD 11-12: Fly (Sor/Wiz 3), Warp Wood at will (Drd 2) HD 13-14: Telekinesis 3/day (Sor/Wiz 5), Major Image (Sor/Wiz 3) HD 15-16: Heat Metal at will (Drd 2) HD 17-18: Shapechange (Sor/Wiz 9) HD 19-20: Telekinesis at will (Sor/Wiz 5) Just in case it would be important, here's my personal views of the power behind each spell: Darkness: Decent, though not overpowered by any stretch. The template here includes it just the same as the normal half-fiend does. Warp Wood: Useful, but mostly outside a direct-combat situation. Bows can be warped, but monsters should have a backup weapon; Doors can be shut, but monsters can break through via spells or strength. Invisibility: There will always be a time when stealth can come in handy. However, there are many counters to this spell (see invis, low MS skill, etc.) Heat Metal: Not incredibly powerful; there are more damaging things that you can do with a standard action, and even that is assuming that the target or the combat lasts long enough for all the damage to soak in. Fear: Short duration and many monsters are resistant or immune to its effects. Fly: Useful, though the template already grants a form of flight. Telekinesis: Fun and utilitarian, though it does require concentration. One of the more useful spells in the list. Magic Missile Always a useful spell, though not rediculously powerful. Major Image: Another utilitarian spell. Requires concentration and only gets one use/day. Shapechange: Easily the most powerful spell on the list. Oddly enough, the player has a dislike for the polymorph series of spells (though I don't know his personal reasoning why), and would use this spell only for the sake of disguises or RP, if ever. (Not that I'm going to make it easily accessable because of that reasoning, as some of my less scrupulous players might ask for abilities of similar power.) Here's how I see the spells, from least powerful to most: Darkness, Fear, Warp Wood, Heat Metal, Major Image, Magic Missile, Fly, Invisibility, Telekinesis, Shapechange. I'd like to hear more opinions on these ideas and how others would rank these spells in terms of power, both in combat and out.
Endarire 03-07-06, 03:23 PM	I agree on your spell power scale and too want to know why he things shapechange is weak. -EE
FromTheShadows 03-07-06, 03:33 PM	I agree on your spell power scale and too want to know why he things shapechange is weak. -EE Well, it isn't really that he considers the spell weak; he knows of the power that can be achieved via its use. Really, the restriction is more of a voluntary roleplaying handicap, at least as far as I can see from what he's told me. (The character has a lot of problems stemming from deception in the past and therefore wants to refrain from it himself. That, and running around as a troll just doesn't 'fit' the character, in the player's own words- he's actually proud of that fiendish heritage and wants it to be outwardly visible as often as possible.) If my rankings look good, how about the uses/day of the abilities? I know I'm granting more than the original template gives, but these also tend to be of lower level.
Endarire 03-07-06, 03:52 PM	Heat metal and warp wood just seem weak, most likely because I have never used or seen them used in play. Unfortunately, I am not the one to ask on this. -EE
FromTheShadows 03-07-06, 04:46 PM	Heat metal and warp wood just seem weak, most likely because I have never used or seen them used in play. Unfortunately, I am not the one to ask on this. -EE They will likely have uses (you might as well use something if you have it for free and at-will, after all), limited though they may be. Though, following your suggestion, would this seem to be a better list? (Namely, I moved Warp Wood/Heat Metal at will back a few levels. In the place of heat metal at will at HD 15-16, Magic Missile and Darkness are gained at will.) HD 1-2: Darkness 3/day (Sor/Wiz 2) HD 3-4: Warp Wood 3/day(Drd 2) HD 5-6: Invisibility (self only, Sor/Wiz 2), Warp Wood at Will (Drd 2) HD 7-8: Heat Metal 3/day (Drd 2), Magic Missile (Sor/Wiz 1) HD 9-10: Fear (Sor/Wiz 4), Invisibility at will (self only, Sor/Wiz 2) HD 11-12: Fly (Sor/Wiz 3), Heat Metal at will (Drd 2) HD 13-14: Telekinesis 3/day (Sor/Wiz 5), Major Image (Sor/Wiz 3) HD 15-16: Magic Missile at will (Sor/Wiz 1), Darkness at will (Sor/Wiz 2) HD 17-18: Shapechange (Sor/Wiz 9) HD 19-20: Telekinesis at will (Sor/Wiz 5)
Ashlan 03-07-06, 06:13 PM	What type of stat bonuses and LA are you going to be applying with this template? The LA has a huge impact as it affects the ECL that you get those Sp's at. Ash
FromTheShadows 03-07-06, 06:43 PM	LA will be either +4, or +2 if another player is able to convince me of the BoED's rules on half-celestials (which is more or less a reflection of the half-fiend, after all). Assume +4 for now, though I'm actually aiming a bit below that. LA Buyoff is up for grabs, though I'm very likely to allow it (seeing as all of the players are taking creatures with at least +1 LA). That thought slipped my mind entirely though: the fact that some of the abilties won't be available until post-epic in most cases. Bonuses have been changed from whatever half-fiend normally gives to +2 Dex, +4 Wis, +4 Int, +4 Cha. (These, as with the spells, are up for debate also.)