Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kintara 04-09-05, 12:57 PM	Alright, some of my group thinks that Bards are lame, and aren't useful party members. I ended up defending them, and so now I need to back up my claim, but I don't want to do it...lamely. This was what I said: Well, the game doesn't have to be more RP to take advantage of some of the Bard's more subtle tactics. I think the Bard can excel at misdirection and infiltration, if played properly. I think the thing about Bards is that they're easy to play in the wrong way. If you simply act as the buffster, and pling some arrows from the back, then everyone will ask why the hell we didn't just find ourselves a Cleric (though the party combination and character choices can make them shine here). The same thing goes for focusing too much on being the party face. Other classes can do that pretty easily, with the right skill choices. But if you need to send someone into the enemy's base and keep them distracted, while you enter in the back, then the Bard is self-reliant and skilled enough to make it easy. They have a built in explanation for attracting attention to themselves, as performers, and they make great liars (look at Glibness). They have the right spells to pose as the right sort of creature for the occassion, as well, and might even know the proper languages to improve the cover. Plus, Bardic Knowledge is a blessing, when pressed for something you "should" know.Anyway, our current group is spellcaster heavy, with a Warmage/Sentinel of Bharrai, Incantatrix, Red Wizard, Melee Cleric of Ilmater, a more bookish Morninglord of Lathander, and a TWF Ranger. We start at level ten with 36 point buy. I'm required to take a regional feat at level one from the PGtF, and it's an FR game (but we don't have a lot of 3.5 FR books). I need the build to be either straight bard, or maybe just a splash or dip of another class (like maybe Gnome Paragon). Pretty much any non-specific Wizards core book, or the PGtF, are game. I might be able to sneak one of those Eberron Bard feats, as well. I think I'll probably take that feat in CAdv that allows you to expand your Perform repertoire with different instruments. Inspire Spellpower, from RoS, sounded appropriate, considering all the spellcasters. I'd appreciate any help with spells that you could give me.
Teltharis 04-09-05, 01:35 PM	can you prestige class after the first ten levels, cuz if so, seeker of the song is pretty good, especially with some extra music feats. As is sublime chord.
Kintara 04-09-05, 01:51 PM	can you prestige class after the first ten levels, cuz if so, seeker of the song is pretty good, especially with some extra music feats. As is sublime chord.Well, I suppose I could, technically. I could multiclass as much as I like, really, but it would sort of muddy the point I'm trying to make.
catharz 04-09-05, 01:57 PM	So is it spell/skill/tactcal advice you want? I don't know a lot about playing bards, but you might have trouble convincing your party that they're worth a damn' if you go that standard bart route. Not because you'll be weak or unhelpful, but because all of your support abilities will make their characters look better, not your's. And while it would be a perfectly good demonstation of the bard's usefulness, your friends may fail to see it as such. Some ranks in Tumble (enough to get the defensive fighting synergy) would be good for ya. The very best you could do is with the Races of Destiny Half-E Bard sublevels. Put a lot of ranks in Diplomacy and take the feat which allows you to take 10 on interaction skills (from RoD or CAd, IIRC). Then take feats which let you use music on Undead, Plants, etc. Subsonics is good too. Take sneaky skills. Don't take "that feat in CAdv that allows you to expand your Perform repertoire with different instruments." You'll only need one Perform skill anyway, and you should make it Rhetoric/Oratory. Unless you want a support role, don't take the support feats either. Do take Subsonics. What we want to do is make you a skills-based Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate/Sense motive and Hide/Mive silently(/Sleight of hand?) master. If there are already a lot of spellcasters in your party, you won't shine there. So focus on buffs and the spells you get and they don't (Sonorous hum, etc). The end result should be a super spy who can permenantly interrupt a combat with a word.
Judging Eagle 04-09-05, 02:12 PM	Take some levels of marshall for armour/weapon proficiencies, skill pts as well as the Auras which will nicely stack with your high charisma. If you've got a trripping/sundering/disarming/bull rushing fiend in your party or you have a main tank and a flanking sneakattacker rogue, you can add your charsima modifier to the special combat maneuver attempts or give bonus damage to flanked opponents. You could alternately boost a weak save (fort or will, maybe reflex). If you want a party that moves/acts FIRST every time, you can get up to +12 on initative checks with 18 dex, 18 cha, improved initiative and motivate dextertity. If you know you'll be facing SR monsters, your party casters will love determined caster to add your Cha mod to their SR checks. For a major aura, the +1 to all damage rolls is nice, but the +1 to all of your allies AC might be better. check the minis handbook for this class, it really beefs up any class with decent Cha. I'm going to make a Band of Marshall's to take on my PCs in my campaign at some point, the massive amount of passive buffs that they can all give each other is just too much to pass up.
Kintara 04-09-05, 02:16 PM	Hm, well, I was thinking that one approach to the class would be as the character that can actually go into potential enemy camps, and act as the distraction as an entertainer. I'd also be in a good position to gather info. That would mean solid disguises. One useful thing about that feat I was going to take is that you may combine instrumental performances to get a +2 on Perform checks. Anyway, one strategy I was thinking was that while I distracted the enemies, I could Subsonically Fascinate and Suggest select baddies to cause mayham or lead them into traps. Anyway, another take I was tossing around was a Gnome Paragon Bard with illusion spells. I don't think any of my party members have selected any illusions, and such a character would be able to have a pretty impressive caster level/save DC with illusions. Edit: Anyway, thanks for all the advice. The tactical stuff is definitely appreciated. As for the Marshal, it's a good idea, but I'm wary of it because the proposed house-ruled Bard would be similar, and I'm kind of arguing that Bards can be good with out changes.
rilem 04-09-05, 02:57 PM	As for the Marshal, it's a good idea, but I'm wary of it because the proposed house-ruled Bard would be similar, and I'm kind of arguing that Bards can be good with out changes. Here's the problem with that argument. You seem to want to demonstrate that a straight bard (as in bard20) is good — so by multiclassing, you think you're undercutting that argument. But look at your party. All but two are taking Prestige Classes — and in most cases, Coreclass+Prestige class > Straight coreclass. Does the fact that your two arcanists went for Incantatrix and Red Wizard mean that the Wizard is a poor class? Of course not, but then why should multiclassing on your part be a problem?
Ashianyl 04-09-05, 03:22 PM	Go Sublime Chord, get a mass summon spell, start singing. You should have a pretty decent army that can provide decent distraction. This route lags the game though. :)
gabrion 04-09-05, 03:36 PM	I second the idea that you need to look at PrCs. My vote is for a three level dip in Stormsinger (Frostburn). Do everything you can to increase your Perform (sing) skill (I suggest you get a choaker of eloquence form CV). This will hurt your skills a little, but the pay-off is that you will also be able to do a bunch of damage. You should take the levels of Stormsinger at 6, 7 and 8 so that at nine and ten you will be able to max out the bard skill you had to neglect. Edit: I also think a one level dip into Martial to motivate CHA checks is a good idea. This will help a lot of your skills and you will do more damage with thunderstrike.
Bard of DorAr 04-09-05, 05:14 PM	Well one simple thing. If you can get your party to let you go into a situation first, or for them to sheath their weapons and be non-hostile. Fascinate. Once fascinated you can Suggest every round (It doesn't end the Fascinate, doesn't take Bardic Musics to activate, doesn't have a limit of usage in itself). That aside. Go Exalted and Sublime Chord... Take Words of Creation, make sure you pick up the higher end summons (For that matter, grab something like Heavenly Host or Fierce Pride of the Beastlands). At level 20 you can summon a veritable army, then use Words of Creation on your Inspire Courage and your entire army gets a +8 bonus to hit, damage, and saves versus mental stuff. ::shrugs:: Not to mention the joys of such things as Glibness.. The only thing to remember with a bard is that they aren't frontliners, they're support by default, and using em as such doubles or more the threat your party poses.
catharz 04-09-05, 05:16 PM	If a class can't stand on it's own un-PrCed in a campaign, it probably is a good idea to house-rule it.
Ashlan 04-09-05, 08:00 PM	Hm, well, I was thinking that one approach to the class would be as the character that can actually go into potential enemy camps, and act as the distraction as an entertainer. I'd also be in a good position to gather info. That would mean solid disguises. One useful thing about that feat I was going to take is that you may combine instrumental performances to get a +2 on Perform checks. Anyway, one strategy I was thinking was that while I distracted the enemies, I could Subsonically Fascinate and Suggest select baddies to cause mayham or lead them into traps. Consider taking a level in Mindbender then. With Subsonics you can Fascinate a group of people, suggestion one of them and then give him commands without anyone ever hearing that you are even there. When I think of more things I will let you know. Ash
trapspringer 04-09-05, 10:55 PM	I played a bard 7/ psychic warrior 2 in a campaign once. Everyone thought I was a joke until I dropped 48 damage in one surprise round on the moe-ron who decided that he wanted to levy a tax on our ship because it was submersable. Yea, make that fighter question whether he wants to bully you around:take arcane disciple.
jstorrie 04-09-05, 11:01 PM	If you're playing Bard20, you have two real strengths: skills and bardic music. Bardic music is something that tends to get really underplayed (har har); there's more to it than just +to hits every once in a while. Don't forget that you can fascinate and suggest with your bardic music, and with your ranks of Perform the DC can get pretty high. As far as your skills - take the ones that aren't covered by your party. UMD is generally nice but you have plenty of spellcasters, so it isn't critical; Bluff, Sense Motive, Move Silently/Hide, Intimidate, Diplomacy, and Knowledge skills will be pretty useful. Bluff, bluff, bluff the stupid ogre! The bard spell list isn't terrible and if you have a high charisma, Irresistible Dance will work wonders. So will the illusion spells. Again, focus on things you don't have already in the party; the clerics can heal and the wizards can blast or throw save-or-dies. The trick with bards is that even though they can passably fill in for any party member, if you're in a full party, you really shouldn't. The 'real' characters of those classes will clearly outdo you in their own fields. Instead, specialize in the things that only bards get, and you can still play backup whatever if you need to.
Sentient 04-09-05, 11:34 PM	Have your partys wizzes build you some wands of their favorite spell combos. Solid Fog, for example, to set up cloudkill combos. I can't think of any others, but there are! UMD is the awesome.
Mommy was an Orc 04-09-05, 11:44 PM	Go Bard 20. Do the following in order: Inspire Courage + the 1st level spell from Complete Adventurer Haste Inspire Greatness Start shooting arrows with all the bow feats you have. Then ask the DM to announce each time your bonuses to hit made the difference to hit or not and tally up all the damage you do. It should be pretty signifcant...
Kuroi Kenshi 04-10-05, 12:15 AM	If you can work it out with one or more of your casters to do summoning, your buffing will be even more effective if you go that route.
Essence 04-10-05, 12:45 AM	Don't forget the Bard's skill with illusions. With a pimped-out Disguise/Bluff/Perform suite, you can infiltrate and distract as you suggest -- but with Silent Image on your spell list, you can actually live through someone piercing your disguise. Just "reveal yourself" as being a Polymorphed Balor, and use your Bluff (DC should be easy when everyone can SEE that you're a Balor) to convince the enemies that you are not to be trifled with. Also, in terms of righteous combat tactics, don't forget that Bards start proficient in the Whip, which means you can stand well away from the front line and greatly assist the tanks by tripping and disarming their foes while you sing their praises. Don't waste your spells known on Cure spells, or effect-removal spells like Break Enchantment or Remove Curse. Spend the cash, get a Wand of CLW and a scroll each of the other major restorative spells, and go with it. Save your slots known for the stuff that will make your actions in combat count for more than just filler while you sing to help your friends: buffs (Good Hope and Heroism are the biggies, assuming someone else has Haste covered), attacking spells (even Sound Burst is often better than making a useless attack action against a monster that the fighter can kill next round on his own), and, the big one, illusions. Combined with your own Bluff score and some decent acting on your part, you can often single-handedly convince an enemy that the battle is going to be a three-way brawl by Major Imageing a pile of relevant creatures into existence, pointing at them, and Bluffing "Holy crap! Run!" or something similar. It's almost guaranteed to cost the entire enemy side at least an action as they verify that the illusion can't actually hurt them. Finally, remember UMD. Acquire a Wand of Vampiric Touch, and UMD it is someone gets in melee range with you. You have a high enough BAB that, even without Str or Weapon Finesse, you should hit your enemy's touch ACs without much problem. And the temporary HP will help you stand up to the enemy's attacks for long enough for your party's tanks to save your butt. Good luck!
Sentient 04-10-05, 12:46 AM	Go Bard 20. Do the following in order: Inspire Courage + the 1st level spell from Complete Adventurer Haste Inspire Greatness Start shooting arrows with all the bow feats you have. Then ask the DM to announce each time your bonuses to hit made the difference to hit or not and tally up all the damage you do. It should be pretty signifcant... eh, or be a fighter
Kintara 04-10-05, 01:04 AM	I appreciate all the help, guys. Summons do seem to be a good idea, and I'm sure we can spare some spells for it among our various casters. I'll also think about the Mindbender. I'm not totally against PrCs, but I think you can understand where I coming from in not relying too much on them. I'm sort of "playtesting" the Bard to show what it can do if played with creativity. The people I play with are smart enough to know that PrCs can make you more powerful. That said, I think the power of PrCs are sometimes overstated. You can make quite a few solid builds as a straight core class. A Rogue 20 is no pushover, after all, for example. The same goes for Clerics and Barbarians, I believe. And I think Bard 20 is also a solid class, if played well. But I don't want this to derail all the great ideas, nor do I even want anyone to hold back if they think I should look at a PrC. Essence, do you think the spell level loss is worth it, if I take Gnome Paragon 3? I have to admit that I like the idea of being a tricksy gnome illusionist. In any case, I agree that Fascinate and Suggestion are great abilities, and I hope to use them for much mayham. I'd appreciate any especially devious tricks to play. For spells, I was thinking of doing either the Sleight of Hand trick in Races of Stone for disguising spellcasting, or just taking Disguise Spell. They each have their pluses and minuses.
Essence 04-10-05, 01:24 AM	Essence, do you think the spell level loss is worth it, if I take Gnome Paragon 3? I have to admit that I like the idea of being a tricksy gnome illusionist. Actually, I do think it's worth it. You lose out on 4th level spells in the immediate sense, but actually, the only really killer 4th level Bard spell is Invisibility, Greater. Well, losing Shout hurts a little, but then, you're going for tricky, not combat-strong. The increased caster level for your illusions doesn't really help the "tricky" illusions that much -- the important thing about them isn't their duration or how easily they're dispelled -- but it does help stuff like Mirror Image, and at later levels, it helps get your Shadow spells through an enemy's SR, which is nice. Really, the bonus you're shooting for here is the +2 Cha, which is totally worth the loss of a caster level. Your DCs are going to be hurting because you don't have spells of as high of a level as the real casters, and the +2 Cha helps make up for that. Of slightly more concern is the 2 lost skill points and the fact that you won't start with Inspire Greatness (which is so awesome it makes me want to committ seppuku with a frisbee) -- but you'll catch up fast, and the ability to drive your Cha up 2 points is worth the wait. Just be careful on which skills you choose to ignore. Strangely, it's probably OK to not spend your Gnome Paragon points on Perform -- the Bard is set up to require exactly three more Perform ranks than you have Bard levels in order to keep gaining songs, and more than that just isn't necessary.
Bongo 04-10-05, 01:52 AM	But look at your party. All but two are taking Prestige Classes — and in most cases, Coreclass+Prestige class > Straight coreclass. Does the fact that your two arcanists went for Incantatrix and Red Wizard mean that the Wizard is a poor class? Of course not, but then why should multiclassing on your part be a problem? I agree. You should give yourself the same advantages they have for a fair comparison. However, if you can keep up without prestige classes it'll be even more impressive.
PhaedrusXY 04-10-05, 02:32 AM	Charm a bunch of "friends" using Charm Person and/or Charm Monster. Every time the spells are about to wear off, ask them to let you cast a spell on them. Then cast another Charm Person or Charm Monster. They'll automatically fail their saves, because you asked them to (and they think you're their best friend). Multiple identical spell effects overlap, so when the first Charm wears off, the second one will still be in effect. You can basically have a small army of big, tough, low Will save monsters and NPCs like this, and the bard is the perfect class to exploit it, really, because they rely on Charisma, have all the good social skills (to keep their "friends" in line), and have group buffing abilities to give all their "friends" a little boost in the form of their music.
Kuroi Kenshi 04-10-05, 03:23 AM	Charm a bunch of "friends" using Charm Person and/or Charm Monster. Every time the spells are about to wear off, ask them to let you cast a spell on them. Then cast another Charm Person or Charm Monster. They'll automatically fail their saves, because you asked them to (and they think you're their best friend). Good point. I remember in a past thread someone suggested using charm person/monster, then using diplomacy to convince them they should follow you so you don't have to reapply the spell. It might work to save spellslots, but either way the base idea works very well, and is a great substitute (or supplement) for the leadership feat.
Borin 04-10-05, 05:58 AM	Well, you'd have to use diplomacy anyway, because otherwise they won't take risks for you (they only become friendly, not helpful), and won't be of much use in combat.
prozacman 04-10-05, 07:25 AM	social skills are key, espeshily bluff, diplomacy and sence motive. in combination with bardic music these abilities can make the bard an unriveled social master. our bard reciently walked up to an enemy camp (not snuck, walked) convinced the captain of the guard he was a traveling performer, and then convinced him it would be a good idea to let him perform for the troops to "increase morale" it increased morale, increased it to a fever pitch, at which point the proper use of suggestion sent the entire army out of the base and to attack another of our enemies. 2000 troops subjugated with a couple of diplomacy/bluff checks and 2 bardic music uses <drools>
Khazra Reborn 04-10-05, 08:16 AM	regional feat otherworldly is pretty good if you need one, in a tight combat situation the wizard can use polymoph other to get you some sick combat forms. I second the idea of having a summoned army with words of creation, sentinel of bharri is pretty good for the dire bears summon & wildshape.
Mommy was an Orc 04-10-05, 11:48 AM	And do less than half the damage? One thing people rarely understand is that a +1 to hit is not an increase of 5% chance to hit, it is usually around 8-12% - If that melee cleric has attacks of +17/12 and they're going up against a monster with AC 24, then he normally hits on a 7/13. If you cast Haste and Inspire Courage/CA spell on him, then that's 3/3/8. So instead of hitting .7/45, or 1.15 hits per round, he'll be hitting .9/.9/.65, or 2.45 hits per round. That's over 100% more damage just from the cleric. eh, or be a fighter
Essence 04-10-05, 02:06 PM	regional feat otherworldly is pretty good if you need one, in a tight combat situation the wizard can use polymoph other to get you some sick combat forms. This also make Alter Self an ass-rockingly huge spell for a tricky bard. When you can Alter Self into <takes a deep breath> A lantern archon, a dretch, a quasit, an imp, a lemure, a formian (worker or warrior), a hellhound, any mephit, a rast, a ravid, a vargoulle, a xill, a small xorn, or a yeth hound, <inhales> ...you can almost always find a form whose alignment/elemental bent/general terms of existence will incline a group of people to either ignore you and let you go about your business, or pay extra-special attention to you, and listen to what you say in great detail. Just as an example, if your party is attempting to infiltrate a Githzerai monastery, it's much easier to get in if you can Alter Self into a lantern archon or a formian worker, and just walk up. Use Sense Motive to figure their basic attitude towards you, and use Bluff with some excuse like "Pardon me, but I am contractually obligated to deliver a message of great importance to the most skilled of your number." Really, are they going to think "Hey, this ball of celestial light is obviously trying to sneak in and steal something!"?
Kintara 04-10-05, 02:25 PM	Hmm, that would be useful, but how would I handle it if I wanted to turn into a Goblin? Just use Disguise Self, instead?
Essence 04-10-05, 02:37 PM	That's the drawback. Yes, you'd have to use Disguise Self (or just the Disguise skill) to mimic other humanoids. Personally, I think it's a no-brainer. The one thing the Bard needs to totally mess with you is your attention, and outsiders get more attention just by the nature of their existence than humanoids do. Granted, it's harder to "blend with the crowd", but you've got skills to cover that. :)
Torack 04-10-05, 02:51 PM	The problem with the Disguise spell is that its a watered down Altered Self spell. Considering a Goblin is a small humanoid, the alter self will allow you to change into one, where the Disguise Spell won't. Bleh. Never mind. I forgot you were going for a gnome...
Kintara 04-10-05, 02:57 PM	The problem with the Disguise spell is that its a watered down Altered Self spell. Considering a Goblin is a small humanoid, the alter self will allow you to change into one, where the Disguise Spell won't. Bleh. Never mind. I forgot you were going for a gnome...Yeah, one plus to playing a gnome is that you can look like a puny goblin or kobold. But if I went human, being a drunken orc would work pretty well, too. ;)
Need_A_Life 04-10-05, 03:07 PM	Be an outsider (the type, not personality) and use alter self to turn into good forms. Heck, a polymorph any object could make you a solar permanently (either get a wizard/cleric w/ trickery to do it or pay for the casting (although it _can_ be dispelled so it'd be a waste))... Then show them not to mess with a bard :D Bard firing arrows of slaying, while singing loudly would make a Tarrasque cry itself to sleep.