Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cirein Amakiir 05-28-05, 10:02 AM	I am beginning a campaign as a bard...elf...half celestial (level adjustment sucks, but I love the roleplaying opportunities) Regardless, I wanted a build that would synergize well with my half celestial template. (figured bard would work) and I want to work sublime chord in there as well. I want full spellcasting progression all the way to 9 by way of sublime chord. I want to fight well. I have considered: Bard 7 Sublime chord 1 Eldrich knight 10 Bard 2 (fills out lower casting) But it loses out on the abilities that the sublime chord granted. (is song of cosmic fire as good as it looks?) Is there a way to be a half-decent fighter and keep the sublime chord levels? Or another PRC with full casting progression and good BAB that works well with bards? Anyway...have at it.
Caelic 05-28-05, 10:04 AM	Small suggestion: can you go with Star Elf? It's in keeping with the half-Celestial idea and grants a bonus to Charisma.
Cirein Amakiir 05-28-05, 10:08 AM	Where do I find star elf...never heard of it.
Eyeless Blond 05-28-05, 10:20 AM	Also, the first level of SC can't be gotten until level 11 at least: one of the reqs is a couple of skills at 13, which can't be met until level 10. Also, where are you getting the all martial weapons prof. for Eldrich Knight? OTOH, Song of Arcane Power is basically the only thing worth getting in SC levels, and that's a level 2 ability, so it's perfectly fine to ditch the class after level 2 if you're not interested in bardic knowledge or anything like that. There's a Fochlucan Lyricist build floating around that might interest you if all you're interested in is end behavior; it kinda drags in the mid levels but you end up with +16BAB, 9th level arcane spells, 5th level divine (druid) spells, and 16 levels of bardic music.
ed209 06-07-05, 01:17 AM	Where do I find star elf...never heard of it. ... It's in Unapproachable East (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030502a). Heck, they even have Bard as their favored class... Also, the first level of SC can't be gotten until level 11 at least: one of the reqs is a couple of skills at 13, which can't be met until level 10. Also, where are you getting the all martial weapons prof. for Eldrich Knight? OTOH, Song of Arcane Power is basically the only thing worth getting in SC levels, and that's a level 2 ability, so it's perfectly fine to ditch the class after level 2 if you're not interested in bardic knowledge or anything like that. ... Yeah, what he said... :) ... From what I've read, this should be fairly effective: Bard 1/Paly of Freedom 2/Bard 2/Memory Smith 5/Sublime Chord 2/ Sacred Exorcist 1/PRC of choice 7 ... those last seven levels either need to give you at least 5 BAB if you use fractional, otherwise 6. (for the lazy, just continue on through with Sacred Exorcist) Paladin is for CHA to saves, Sacred Exorcist for turning. (so that you'll have access to all sorts of fun divine feats) Memory Smith (Dragon Magazine #314) is a Bard PRC with a fighter BAB that ends up adding the all important Divine Power to your spell list. Mmm, crunchy goodness. I'll let others fill in the list of feats you'd want; I'm just too sleepy right now. Night...
Arterion 06-07-05, 02:35 AM	Well, the Half-Celestial template makes you an Outsider, and all Outsiders with an Int of 6 or more are proficient with all martial weapons according to the MM2 (p9).
Murazor 06-07-05, 05:55 AM	Well, the Half-Celestial template makes you an Outsider, and all Outsiders with an Int of 6 or more are proficient with all martial weapons according to the MM2 (p9). Only if you have outsider hitdice.
Lilt 06-07-05, 06:43 AM	Only if you have outsider hitdice.Not according to the SRD:Outsider Type: An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. Features: An outsider has the following features. 8-sided Hit Dice. Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves. Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). Darkvision out to 60 feet. Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.(Emphasis mine)
Khazra Reborn 06-07-05, 07:00 AM	As you have proficency from outsider you could pick up battlecaster for cast in medium & as such mithral fullplate! Does Aasimir with La bought off then make a stupidly good gish being able to acess prcs which require martial proficeincy etc eg spellsword? You could even use nearph from planar handbook for no LA if you cant buy off.
Betrayer of Hope 06-07-05, 07:12 AM	I don't think the entry you've quoted demonstrates that you get free Outsider proficiencies without having Outsider HD. The Half-Celestial template (which is really what controls the abilities you receive) specifically notes: "A half-celestial uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here." The template pretty clearly ennumerates the benefits derived from being a half-celestial (wings, SR, spell-like abilities, etc), none of which includes weapon and armor proficiency that outsiders get per their entry. If your character had racial HD from one source or another, those would become Outsider HD (pretty clearly demonstrated by the 'skills' entry), but since you have class levels I don't think you get the bonus feats. The template is a hefty +4 (or +3 if you buy BoED), but I don't think that nets you a handful of useful and important feats in addition to all the multitude half-celestial goodies.
LordKiwi 06-07-05, 07:12 AM	Regardless, I wanted a build that would synergize well with my half celestial template. (figured bard would work) and I want to work sublime chord in there as well. To synagise well with the template you need to look at what you gain and what you loose from it. Pros: Spell like abilities, flight, good statistics and Outsider Type. Cons: Low hit points, low skill ranks, low BAB and low caster level. Given the last two points you probably don't want to make the Gish you are trying to. Prestige classes with high skill rank requirements (Sublime Chord, Folchian Lyrist) seem to be out of the question untill very late in the build. What you need to lots of front loaded classes to regain the power of your lost levels. See 'X Stat to Y Bonus' in my sig to take advantage of your high statistics. You'll want to look up Polymorph forms for Outsiders and recoment your party spellcaster turns you into one regularly. I want full spellcasting progression all the way to 9 by way of sublime chord. You're ECL 14 by the time you enter Sublime chord so unless you go epic it's impossible to finish. I'd be tempted with an Apostle of Peace build as you can get into that class relatively early, it has fast casting progression and fits the Celestial theme. Monk/Paladin/Sacred Fist would also be good in this case. If you are insisting on a Bard/Gish type build then the Snowflake Wardancer feat from Frostburn is a must. Two weapon fighting and Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior) are also good. Lord Kiwi,
Khazra Reborn 06-07-05, 07:46 AM	Bard 1/Paly of Freedom 2/Bard 2/Memory Smith 5/Sublime Chord 2/ Sacred Exorcist 1/PRC of choice 7 This build is good although very hard to get the 16 BaB. if you switched end so it was: Bard 1/Bard 2/Memory Smith 5/soldier of light2*/Sublime Chord 2/exorcist6/dragonslayer1/spellsword1 This gets BaB 16 whilst retaining full sublime chord casting & also has cha to saves & smite evil for divine might. *soldier of light is from deitys & demigods & basically seeems to condense the paladin class into 10 levels ;) edit>damn, SoL requires a patron which definetly aint moradin, unless you could convince DM to allow both that & memory smith ignore this post
Lilt 06-07-05, 08:39 AM	I don't think the entry you've quoted demonstrates that you get free Outsider proficiencies without having Outsider HD. The Half-Celestial template (which is really what controls the abilities you receive) specifically notes: "A half-celestial uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here." The template pretty clearly ennumerates the benefits derived from being a half-celestial (wings, SR, spell-like abilities, etc), none of which includes weapon and armor proficiency that outsiders get per their entry. If your character had racial HD from one source or another, those would become Outsider HD (pretty clearly demonstrated by the 'skills' entry), but since you have class levels I don't think you get the bonus feats. The template is a hefty +4 (or +3 if you buy BoED), but I don't think that nets you a handful of useful and important feats in addition to all the multitude half-celestial goodies.Firstly: I see no indication in the MM (Outsider Type entry or Half-Celestial entry) that having outsider HD would make any difference whatsoever. If there is a quote to that somewher ethen please point me to it. Secondly: The template states that the type of the creature changes to outsider, surely this means that they become an outsider with all it entails? Next we have the fact that the Half Celestial template can make someone a Non-Native outsider. What happens then? Do you get a non-native outsider who can be raised and needs to sleep? How does the fact that the template can make a non-native or a native outsider make much of a difference? I really think that not inheriting abilities from a type when it's granted would need to be an explicit exception.
Mommy was an Orc 06-07-05, 08:55 AM	Bard 7/Master Thrower 2/Druid 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyricist 9 It isn't that bad in the mid levels - Master Thrower naturally goes with most feats that Bards are going to want to take anyway. Then there's the level of Druid, but Sublime Chord puts everything back on track. There's a Fochlucan Lyricist build floating around that might interest you if all you're interested in is end behavior; it kinda drags in the mid levels but you end up with +16BAB, 9th level arcane spells, 5th level divine (druid) spells, and 16 levels of bardic music.
thegreatbuddha 06-07-05, 09:23 AM	Druid isn't needed for Fochlucan Lyrist. Just Speak Language: Druid.
Blade2718 06-07-05, 09:24 AM	What is this nonsense about an elven Memory Smith? It's for dwarven worshippers of Moradin only. You'd need Stoneblessed 3 in those builds to make it work.
LordKiwi 06-07-05, 09:34 AM	Druid isn't needed for Fochlucan Lyrist. Just Speak Language: Druid. Which is a language restricted to Druids only (see the PHB page 35). If you can find someone in game to teach you it I'd be suprised and even then you'd probably be hanging around with the wrong people to be allowed into the Fochlucan Lyrists. Lord Kiwi,
cvazi 06-07-05, 09:37 AM	and a druid who teaches a non druid druidic loses all druid abilities. You might be able to find a blighter who'll teach you. . . IMHO, I think going straight 10 levels of seeker of the song is the best a bard can do.
thegreatbuddha 06-07-05, 10:02 AM	Take the Leadership feat and have a cohort with 1 level in Ex-Druid.
carnivore 06-07-05, 10:12 AM	try this: Elf Rogue 2/ Bard 2/ Druid 1/ Spellsinger 5/ Sacred Chord 1/ Fochlucan lyrist 9 better skills fewer required feats better Bardic Abilities can exchange spells for any enchantment spells of a lower level :D
Arterion 06-07-05, 12:19 PM	Take the Leadership feat and have a cohort with 1 level in Ex-Druid. I've been through this before. Druidic is a class feature of the Druid, and would be immediately lost upon becoming an ex-druid. Thus, if a Druid started to teach a non-druid Druidic, he would immediately lose all his druid class features, including druidic, and thus be unable to teach it to you. It specifically states that an ex-druid ONLY keeps its armor, weapon, and shield proficiencies. Furthermore, Druidic is not on the bonus lanuage list for any race or class other than druid. Third, the Speak Language skill in the PHB says that it is spoken by Druids only. So in other words, the only way to have Speak Language: Druidic is to have a level in Druid.
Tweedledope 06-07-05, 01:19 PM	I've been through this before. Druidic is a class feature of the Druid, and would be immediately lost upon becoming an ex-druid. Thus, if a Druid started to teach a non-druid Druidic, he would immediately lose all his druid class features, including druidic, and thus be unable to teach it to you. It specifically states that an ex-druid ONLY keeps its armor, weapon, and shield proficiencies. Furthermore, Druidic is not on the bonus lanuage list for any race or class other than druid. Third, the Speak Language skill in the PHB says that it is spoken by Druids only. So in other words, the only way to have Speak Language: Druidic is to have a level in Druid. Amen! There is no way to get around speaking Druidic. Back in the good ol' days, IE, 2nd Ed, if a Druid ever taught someone else the language (whether or not he was exiled) both parties would be killed...then again, this is when Druids had circles and ranks too...oh well...
Betrayer of Hope 06-07-05, 02:47 PM	Firstly: I see no indication in the MM (Outsider Type entry or Half-Celestial entry) that having outsider HD would make any difference whatsoever. If there is a quote to that somewher ethen please point me to it. Secondly: The template states that the type of the creature changes to outsider, surely this means that they become an outsider with all it entails? Next we have the fact that the Half Celestial template can make someone a Non-Native outsider. What happens then? Do you get a non-native outsider who can be raised and needs to sleep? How does the fact that the template can make a non-native or a native outsider make much of a difference? I really think that not inheriting abilities from a type when it's granted would need to be an explicit exception. Point one: "outsider HD" is a shorthand way to describe the racial HD posessed by a monster of the outsider type (angel, demon, devil, etc). They're pretty much the best racial HD money can buy. I can't cite chapter and verse, but having (or not having in the case of a PC with class levels) racial HD is very important in this discussion. Point two: types have multiple meanings and it is evident that there are discrete degrees of "being a type." There are numerous examples of PCs having the outsider type and not getting all of the benefits that are provided by posessing outsider HD. Aasimar and Tieflings are (native) outsiders without outsider HD and they don't get even half of the powers of a full celestial. However they can polymorph into celestial shapes which a human wizard could not. A Monk 20 is not suddenly proficient in martial weapons, even though he is now a native outsider and has DR 10/whatever, thanks to Perfect Self. There are tons of transformative PrCs that don't give you the weapon proficiencies at the end. Sometimes changing your type changes your abilities (becoming undead is the most obvious example), but those changes are explicitly described. Point two-point-five: the native verses non-native outsider distinction is immaterial in this discussion. The only qualities defined by native/non-native status are your ability to be raised and your requirements for eating and sleeping. The text describes outsiders as being soul and body together; native outsiders are seperate (but still supernatural). The half-celestial template allows you to make non-native outsider characters, but they are not any "more outsider" than their native counterparts, they just don't have to sleep and can't come back from the dead.
Arterion 06-07-05, 04:40 PM	The MM2 clearly indicates that all Outsiders with an Int of 6 or higher are proficient with all martial weapons. To me knowledge, there is no text anywhere that qualifies that with "only if he has ousider hit dice." If there is, please reference it.
Betrayer of Hope 06-07-05, 04:51 PM	I can't argue that point, as I don't have a MM2. That said, I maintain that there is a clear difference between creatures with Outsider racial HD (who clearly get the weapon proficiencies) and beings with simply have the Outsider type (which is much easier to obtain and which often doesn't give more than DR 10/magic).
Arterion 06-07-05, 05:46 PM	Maintain all you want, but those aren't the rules. Until you can demonstrate that the rule doesn't apply to all Outsiders, and only those with racial hit dice, we can only assume the RAW gives all Outsiders with 6 or higher Int proficency with all martial weapons.
Betrayer of Hope 06-07-05, 06:23 PM	I absolutely can't argue with your reading of MM2, as I don't have access to the book (though I might add that it is 3.0 and things may have changed). It is obvious that there is a real difference between an outsider with racial hit dice (like a solar) and a creature or player that simply has the type "outsider." The section in the SRD (which is the best I can muster) that informs my argument is the description of "Type," which defines it as "Type determines how magic affects a creature. Type determines certain features, such as Hit Dice size, base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and skill points." [emphasis mine] The Half-Celestial template specifically enumerates how it interacts with skill points (which specifically notes that it only affects racial HD), darkvision, SR, and other features of being a celestial, but it doesn't mention weapon proficiency at all. The omission is notable and I read that to mean that they chose not to give weapon and armor proficiency to PCs, despite already taking +4 LA for the template. Characters get proficiency appropriate to their class (as they do with skill points), and half-celestial monsters have racial HD and so they get the proficiency.
Mommy was an Orc 06-07-05, 06:32 PM	Well, I think there's a couple of ways of looking at it - the Goliath in Races of Stone doesn't get a racial hit die and does get Simple Weapon Proficiency(for all the good that does). So Native Outsiders likely should get Martial Weapon Proficiency. But I would restrict someone who took the feat in PGtF to become an outsider - at that point, the feat is specifying what you do get and it makes Militia kind of silly.
Tytalus 06-07-05, 09:08 PM	I've been through this before. Druidic is a class feature of the Druid, and would be immediately lost upon becoming an ex-druid. Thus, if a Druid started to teach a non-druid Druidic, he would immediately lose all his druid class features, including druidic, and thus be unable to teach it to you. It specifically states that an ex-druid ONLY keeps its armor, weapon, and shield proficiencies. Furthermore, Druidic is not on the bonus lanuage list for any race or class other than druid. Third, the Speak Language skill in the PHB says that it is spoken by Druids only. So in other words, the only way to have Speak Language: Druidic is to have a level in Druid. And that's still not correct. As has been pointed out, a 4th level loremaster (for example) can learn "any language". Prestige classes (and feats, for that matter) routinely override the basic rules by allowing character to posses abilities/skills/etc. that they otherwise would not. Loosing the ability to speak druidic when becoming an ex-druid is just silly. As soon as you stop being a druid, you forget how to speak a learned language? Please. Also don't forget that the bonus language is a class feature, while Ex-druids lose their "druid abilities". A strictly literal interpretation of the RAW (e.g., see page 23, PHB) can only conclude the two are different (YMMV). That druids can't teach druidic is patently wrong. In fact, the rules clearly mention the fact that druids can teach druidic to others. From the SRD: "Ex-Druids: A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description)." While I understand you feel strongly about the issue, there's no question that it is possible to teach druidic based on this quote.
Mommy was an Orc 06-07-05, 09:26 PM	It doesn't say the Druid succeeds at teaching the language, merely that is a cause for losing all Druid abilities. i.e. if you teach a non-Druid the word for grass, you lose all Druid abilities. Now if Druidic is a Druid ability(which it does appear to be - they specifically mention shield and armor proficiencies as being things you don't lose) - then for teaching one word, you lose all knowledge of Druidic. This doesn't necessarily make no sense - it could be an expression of having a certain affinity with the natural world. That druids can't teach druidic is patently wrong. In fact, the rules clearly mention the fact that druids can teach druidic to others.
DisposableHero_ 06-07-05, 09:41 PM	Maybe we should stay on topic and leave the druidic language debate to the Fochlucan thread where it is actually an issue. To the original poster: I think lord kiwi's advice is the soundest, look for abilities that use a stat modifier (as this character's will be awsome) instead of a level base progression (where you will be behind). Powerful character ideas that would otherwise suffer from troublesome attribute dependancies can shine when a template like half celestial boosts their stats. Shiba Protector, Arcane Duelist, Invisible Blade, Swashbuckler, Iaijutsu Master are good examples of classes that will quickly put your powerful ability scores to good use. Example: for 5 levels of your progression you can take: ShibaProtector1/IaijutsuMaster2/ArcaneDuelist2 and come out with: Wisdom to hit Wisdom to damage Charisma to AC Intelligence to AC Charisma to Initiative Similarly Monk, Paladin, and Swashbuckler make solid base classes to use as they will benefit from your above average physical stats and make use of the mental stats you would waste on other fighting builds.
Iaimeki 06-07-05, 10:21 PM	If the outsider type automatically granted proficiency with martial weapons, then why don't planetouched get such proficiency? In this specific case, I think that half-fiends, which get claw attacks, imply that weapon proficiencies from the creature's base type are retained: "If the base creature can use weapons, the half-fiend retains this ability." By analogy, half-fiend works the same way.
PhaedrusXY 06-08-05, 01:24 AM	If the outsider type automatically granted proficiency with martial weapons, then why don't planetouched get such proficiency?According to this argument, they do. Really, the discussions of whether Outsiders get martial weapon proficiency and whether an Ex-druid can teach druidic don't belong in this forum, and you all are hijacking this thread with these arguments. I agree that if you're going to play a Half-celestial bard, you should give up on being a Gish. I was thinking that a Bard10/NarDemonbinder1/SublimeChord9 would be a fun character. You could substitute other PrC levels for some of the bard and later Sublime Chord levels, of course. But even as-is I think it would be pretty spiffy.
Arterion 06-08-05, 08:09 AM	The OP had no classes to give him Martial Weapon Profiency, we merely offered a way he could get it. The Militia feat from PGtF would work as well. It's importan to know if his build is valid. As for the F.Lyrist, someone offered that as another build that might help the OP, and it's important to know if it's valid or not, too.
Tytalus 06-08-05, 10:54 AM	I was thinking that a Bard10/NarDemonbinder1/SublimeChord9 would be a fun character. You could substitute other PrC levels for some of the bard and later Sublime Chord levels, of course. But even as-is I think it would be pretty spiffy. I prefer advancing SC spellcasting with other PrCs (after SC 2). A favorite of mine is Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. The requirements make it a little difficult to qualify and the BAB takes a hit, but I think it's worth it. Another option is to use Master Harper to advance SC to gain a nice set of goodies. I don't have my books at hand, but The Lone Drow posted this build a while back: Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Bard 3/Spellsword 3/Bard 1/SC 2/Master Harper 8. You end up with BAB 16, full SC casting, and a number of goodies.