And now, my attempt to out-munchkin The Wish and The Word. [Archive] - Wizards Community

And now, my attempt to out-munchkin The Wish and The Word. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SpiritGlyph
11-30-04, 09:11 PM So far, we've got a pretty lively little debate over The Wish and The Word (over here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=344843)), although the last time I checked, their builds had been removed from the Siblings Contest on the grounds that they were horribly, horribly broken. While some say that they went too far, I ask you: what if they didn't go far enough? :plotting:

Let's start with the Ring of Infinite Wishes itself. Instead of making the ring use-activated, give it infinite charges instead. This opens it up the possibility of artificer infusions. Wish up an item that allows for infinite castings of Metamagic Item -- you can't make infusions into items, but the rules are already being brutally sodomized here anyway. Alternately, research a spell that duplicates Metamagic Item. Don't forget the infinite caster level! :devil:

Now, Wish up an item that grants you usage of every metamagic in the game, and apply them to your ring. Now you're casting Quickened Repeat Twin Extended Empowered Maximized Enlarged Widened Chained Explosive Fortified Transdimensional Wishes -- plus it has all the Fell Metamagics tacked on. :evillaugh

Now, this is all well and good, but you can still only use Wish once per round. Hey, we're already making up our own epic items, so why not another one. Simply wish up an item granting you usage of an infinite number of Multispell feats. That's an infinite number of Uber-metamagicked Wishes per round.

In fact, since there aren't any stated rules on what spells you can't research, make yourself a better Wish spell, one that lets you use 9th level spells, duplicate class features, and can give you 80 Divine Ranks (stackable, naturally) per casting. Name it either Greater Wish or Cry of the Munchkin. :rimshot:

But what happens if some smart-alecky rogue decides to Slight of Hand your precious Ring of Infinite Quickened Greater Wishes? Better make that ring a tattoo instead! In fact, give yourself all kinds of tattoos. You should have a tattoo that grants you infinite such-and-such for everything in the game. Don't forget the one that grants you immunity to everything in existance, such as damage (ability, HP, and otherwise), magic, supernatural abilities, extraordinary abilities, and mistletoe.

:evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh
Caelic
11-30-04, 09:22 PM I respond thusly:

"I wish for an item that will permanently cause the Wish spell to stop working, everywhere in the multiverse, without hope of restoration.

Oh...with the exception of MY Wishes, of course."

There's that problem solved. :)
xerofire
11-30-04, 09:30 PM See, the thing is... a while ago I posted how to completely leagally get unlimited free experience to craft magic items and it removes the whole ambiguity of can a wish construct an item of wish and if the DM will let you. :D you just flat out make it yourself and no one can say otherwise. :P All you need are as many trolls as you have caster levels.... simple really. and be a warforged or have the tireless feat to keep it going 24/7.

so basically yes there is a by the books way to break the game even if you can't wish for a ring of wishes. If you want I'll post it or PM it cause it uses BOVD and/or BOED and i'm not sure how much of that material is allowable on these boards but I think I could give a bare bones build to the combo that would sufice.
Funny Slaughter
12-01-04, 05:31 AM "optimizing" infinite wishes is like posting variant builds with spelldancer, it just doesnt make any sense.
if you want to work with the two builds i would say make them legal, that would be some better optimization.

oh, and please be careful with your wording, munchkin is not the right word to use on these boards except as an insult.

gs
Funny
xerofire
12-01-04, 06:47 AM oh, and please be careful with your wording, munchkin is not the right word to use on these boards except as an insult.

gs
Funny

Since when is munchkin such a bad term?
Ravos20
12-01-04, 07:43 AM this is all abstract retardedness... if you break the rules, whats the point of even playing the game if you are gonna severly mess with the mechanics and balance... lol.

i swear, i dont understand the people who use gamesharks on thier games either. whats the point? its like beating a watermelon with a huge mallet. mindless carnage. its fun for a few minutes or even a day, but after that its on to the next game.
Cheiro
12-01-04, 11:18 AM See, the thing is... a while ago I posted how to completely leagally get unlimited free experience to craft magic items and it removes the whole ambiguity of can a wish construct an item of wish and if the DM will let you. :D you just flat out make it yourself and no one can say otherwise. :P All you need are as many trolls as you have caster levels.... simple really. and be a warforged or have the tireless feat to keep it going 24/7.

so basically yes there is a by the books way to break the game even if you can't wish for a ring of wishes. If you want I'll post it or PM it cause it uses BOVD and/or BOED and i'm not sure how much of that material is allowable on these boards but I think I could give a bare bones build to the combo that would sufice.

Could you post a link?
RadicalTaoist
12-01-04, 01:05 PM My personal favorite abuse in their builds was that of Emancipated Shadow Spawn. Anyone think of good full class features they'd like to stuff into two HD? You could make a turning MONSTER that way (17 lvls of pally + 2 of ESS = turn like a 36th level cleric without any items or feats, or PrC abilities. I mean DAYUMN.)
Zathyr
12-01-04, 02:22 PM I'd just love to be a DM for a game where people were making wishes like these.

I wonder how long it would take the players to consult lawyers before wishing for anything.. ;)
xerofire
12-01-04, 02:54 PM Could you post a link?

Actually I took down most of it since it was BOVD and someone complained I was too evil here's bare bones what you need

Rapid spell feat (complete divine)
Reach Spell to give touch spells range
Chain Spell to affect many more targets
Distill joy or liquid pain Spells (casting time 1 day) (the spell from BOED is only level 2 rather than 3 and the product isn't dangerous)
Captive trolls to leech from
Belt of the dread emperor (BOVD) Some chains and collars on the trolls to hook them to the belt

Rapid take the casting time down to 1 hour (if your DM plays that you can stack metamagics of the same type all you need is rapid spell and bring it down to 1 action.

liquid pain is worth 3 exp per dose towards crafting items limit you can extract from a creature is their con. troll = 23

23 Con x 20 creatures x 3 xp = 1380 xp per day per 20 creatures.

Have them traped in a time sped up plane and use timeline sillyness to do even more in a "shorter" period of time. You could use the exp from this to craft scolls of true creation (gained through arcane disciple and creation domain) to creature infinite treasure of any type to pay for the magic item creation costs and then use the free xp to pay the xp cost. ta da.

oh and if you're wondering how i got trolls to be affected by the belt (cause I think it says humaniods) the ritual in savage sepcies that give you a type, in this case the magic item is using them though. Gate a balor in and use its wish ability to have the trolls be affected. Or if there is a humaniod that regenerates out there that works even better. Or alternatively when your wizard makes his belt he makes it more expensive so that it affects trolls.

I do agree thats pretty pointless about arguing anything past the point of having infinite wishes. Basically you acend to god hood where things can still do stuff to you (ie mystra turns off your item and laughs, pats you on the head and says nice try)
catharz
12-01-04, 03:35 PM My personal favorite abuse in their builds was that of Emancipated Shadow Spawn. Anyone think of good full class features they'd like to stuff into two HD? You could make a turning MONSTER that way (17 lvls of pally + 2 of ESS = turn like a 36th level cleric without any items or feats, or PrC abilities. I mean DAYUMN.)

I've got a little build that I was afraid to post here (because its more munchkinized then optimized), the meat of which is psionic illithid/illithid savant uses Psychic reformation to gain the "Corpsegrafter" chain, injures himself terribly, and then UMDs a single-charged staff of enervate. Which turns him into a Wight (with a spell).

So, now you have an Ex-illithid Wight (ECL 8) with all of the benefits of the corpsegrafter feats. Use a thought bottle to regain your XP. Start with two levels of Emancipated spawn. Then UMD a staff of Clone to make a few clones of yourself (I know that an undead clone is odd, but it is RAW legal). Now Recall your levels of Illithid savant. Now eat a clone's brain. Steal the class ability "Recall class features." :Devil

OK, that can result in two things. One is even more muchkin-y then I would attempt: Use the stolen 'Recalled class feature' to recall your illithid savant levels again.

The second is slightly not quite so completely gamebreaking in an infinite loop of stolen abilities. You recall the psionic illithid monster class features.

Then you use UMD a staff of Gate to call a greater doppelganger (Monsters of Faerun). And steal it's "Consume identity" ability. Which is basically 3*'Aquire everything,' except you can swap out old identities, and with a will save have more then 3.

So you now have an ECL 8 character capable of stealing just about as many abilities as he likes. At this point you can, if you like, Spell-stich yourself.

You can also use a dorje of True mind switch to become a living illithid again, but with your all 1d12s HP total (and with this character I would take the Faerie mysteries initiate feat). And Spell-like abilities if you were Spell stitched. And most of the benefits of being Corpsegrafted.

I would also have, upon becoming a wight, undergone the Ritual of association (to Spirit folk) and taken the "Magic in the blood" regional feat. Which makes ever spell stitched spell-like ability 3/day.

You have a turn resistance of around +10, so being ECL 10 with 6 HD isn't awful. Still, going the living route is probably safer.

And you can Gate in (using your staff at 6,147.5 gp a pop) all of the creatures whose abilities you want to steal.

If you like, you could start gaining levels in illithid savant or something (starting at level 1, you only have the abilities, not the levels). Or you just chill at ECL 10 and spend huge amounts of XP to siphon off the huge amounts of XP you'll be gaining.
wtfpwned
12-01-04, 06:07 PM Pointless builds that required a lot of extra work. I can beat yas all with about a thousand times less cheese/walking on the edge of rule breaking.

cleric 1/wizard 9/Dweomoerkeeper 10.

TaDA!!
Cheiro
12-01-04, 10:24 PM Actually I took down most of it since it was BOVD and someone complained I was too evil here's bare bones what you need

Rapid spell feat (complete divine)
Reach Spell to give touch spells range
Chain Spell to affect many more targets
Distill joy or liquid pain Spells (casting time 1 day) (the spell from BOED is only level 2 rather than 3 and the product isn't dangerous)

Rapid take the casting time down to 1 hour (if your DM plays that you can stack metamagics of the same type all you need is rapid spell and bring it down to 1 action.

Liquid pain is 4th level, and has a casting time of 1 day. Rapid spell doesn't apply to it, since the casting time isn't in hours. Applying reach spell makes it a ray, which is not an effect that can be chained. See page 175 of the PHB; target = 1 creature is different from a ray. Anyway, chain spell is +3 caster levels, reach spell is +2 levels, rapid spell is +1 level, so we are talking a 10th level spell. Which is doable, but not easily at the kind of levels that the Cheater of Mystra operates at.

Wish + Thought Bottle + a friendly succubus is probably more reliable.

Anyways, thanks for your combo. I have been wondering for a while how it all worked.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SpiritGlyph 11-30-04, 09:11 PM	So far, we've got a pretty lively little debate over The Wish and The Word (over here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=344843)), although the last time I checked, their builds had been removed from the Siblings Contest on the grounds that they were horribly, horribly broken. While some say that they went too far, I ask you: what if they didn't go far enough? :plotting: Let's start with the Ring of Infinite Wishes itself. Instead of making the ring use-activated, give it infinite charges instead. This opens it up the possibility of artificer infusions. Wish up an item that allows for infinite castings of Metamagic Item -- you can't make infusions into items, but the rules are already being brutally sodomized here anyway. Alternately, research a spell that duplicates Metamagic Item. Don't forget the infinite caster level! :devil: Now, Wish up an item that grants you usage of every metamagic in the game, and apply them to your ring. Now you're casting Quickened Repeat Twin Extended Empowered Maximized Enlarged Widened Chained Explosive Fortified Transdimensional Wishes -- plus it has all the Fell Metamagics tacked on. :evillaugh Now, this is all well and good, but you can still only use Wish once per round. Hey, we're already making up our own epic items, so why not another one. Simply wish up an item granting you usage of an infinite number of Multispell feats. That's an infinite number of Uber-metamagicked Wishes per round. In fact, since there aren't any stated rules on what spells you can't research, make yourself a better Wish spell, one that lets you use 9th level spells, duplicate class features, and can give you 80 Divine Ranks (stackable, naturally) per casting. Name it either Greater Wish or Cry of the Munchkin. :rimshot: But what happens if some smart-alecky rogue decides to Slight of Hand your precious Ring of Infinite Quickened Greater Wishes? Better make that ring a tattoo instead! In fact, give yourself all kinds of tattoos. You should have a tattoo that grants you infinite such-and-such for everything in the game. Don't forget the one that grants you immunity to everything in existance, such as damage (ability, HP, and otherwise), magic, supernatural abilities, extraordinary abilities, and mistletoe. :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh
Caelic 11-30-04, 09:22 PM	I respond thusly: "I wish for an item that will permanently cause the Wish spell to stop working, everywhere in the multiverse, without hope of restoration. Oh...with the exception of MY Wishes, of course." There's that problem solved. :)
xerofire 11-30-04, 09:30 PM	See, the thing is... a while ago I posted how to completely leagally get unlimited free experience to craft magic items and it removes the whole ambiguity of can a wish construct an item of wish and if the DM will let you. :D you just flat out make it yourself and no one can say otherwise. :P All you need are as many trolls as you have caster levels.... simple really. and be a warforged or have the tireless feat to keep it going 24/7. so basically yes there is a by the books way to break the game even if you can't wish for a ring of wishes. If you want I'll post it or PM it cause it uses BOVD and/or BOED and i'm not sure how much of that material is allowable on these boards but I think I could give a bare bones build to the combo that would sufice.
Funny Slaughter 12-01-04, 05:31 AM	"optimizing" infinite wishes is like posting variant builds with spelldancer, it just doesnt make any sense. if you want to work with the two builds i would say make them legal, that would be some better optimization. oh, and please be careful with your wording, munchkin is not the right word to use on these boards except as an insult. gs Funny
xerofire 12-01-04, 06:47 AM	oh, and please be careful with your wording, munchkin is not the right word to use on these boards except as an insult. gs Funny Since when is munchkin such a bad term?
Ravos20 12-01-04, 07:43 AM	this is all abstract retardedness... if you break the rules, whats the point of even playing the game if you are gonna severly mess with the mechanics and balance... lol. i swear, i dont understand the people who use gamesharks on thier games either. whats the point? its like beating a watermelon with a huge mallet. mindless carnage. its fun for a few minutes or even a day, but after that its on to the next game.
Cheiro 12-01-04, 11:18 AM	See, the thing is... a while ago I posted how to completely leagally get unlimited free experience to craft magic items and it removes the whole ambiguity of can a wish construct an item of wish and if the DM will let you. :D you just flat out make it yourself and no one can say otherwise. :P All you need are as many trolls as you have caster levels.... simple really. and be a warforged or have the tireless feat to keep it going 24/7. so basically yes there is a by the books way to break the game even if you can't wish for a ring of wishes. If you want I'll post it or PM it cause it uses BOVD and/or BOED and i'm not sure how much of that material is allowable on these boards but I think I could give a bare bones build to the combo that would sufice. Could you post a link?
RadicalTaoist 12-01-04, 01:05 PM	My personal favorite abuse in their builds was that of Emancipated Shadow Spawn. Anyone think of good full class features they'd like to stuff into two HD? You could make a turning MONSTER that way (17 lvls of pally + 2 of ESS = turn like a 36th level cleric without any items or feats, or PrC abilities. I mean DAYUMN.)
Zathyr 12-01-04, 02:22 PM	I'd just love to be a DM for a game where people were making wishes like these. I wonder how long it would take the players to consult lawyers before wishing for anything.. ;)
xerofire 12-01-04, 02:54 PM	Could you post a link? Actually I took down most of it since it was BOVD and someone complained I was too evil here's bare bones what you need Rapid spell feat (complete divine) Reach Spell to give touch spells range Chain Spell to affect many more targets Distill joy or liquid pain Spells (casting time 1 day) (the spell from BOED is only level 2 rather than 3 and the product isn't dangerous) Captive trolls to leech from Belt of the dread emperor (BOVD) Some chains and collars on the trolls to hook them to the belt Rapid take the casting time down to 1 hour (if your DM plays that you can stack metamagics of the same type all you need is rapid spell and bring it down to 1 action. liquid pain is worth 3 exp per dose towards crafting items limit you can extract from a creature is their con. troll = 23 23 Con x 20 creatures x 3 xp = 1380 xp per day per 20 creatures. Have them traped in a time sped up plane and use timeline sillyness to do even more in a "shorter" period of time. You could use the exp from this to craft scolls of true creation (gained through arcane disciple and creation domain) to creature infinite treasure of any type to pay for the magic item creation costs and then use the free xp to pay the xp cost. ta da. oh and if you're wondering how i got trolls to be affected by the belt (cause I think it says humaniods) the ritual in savage sepcies that give you a type, in this case the magic item is using them though. Gate a balor in and use its wish ability to have the trolls be affected. Or if there is a humaniod that regenerates out there that works even better. Or alternatively when your wizard makes his belt he makes it more expensive so that it affects trolls. I do agree thats pretty pointless about arguing anything past the point of having infinite wishes. Basically you acend to god hood where things can still do stuff to you (ie mystra turns off your item and laughs, pats you on the head and says nice try)
catharz 12-01-04, 03:35 PM	My personal favorite abuse in their builds was that of Emancipated Shadow Spawn. Anyone think of good full class features they'd like to stuff into two HD? You could make a turning MONSTER that way (17 lvls of pally + 2 of ESS = turn like a 36th level cleric without any items or feats, or PrC abilities. I mean DAYUMN.) I've got a little build that I was afraid to post here (because its more munchkinized then optimized), the meat of which is psionic illithid/illithid savant uses Psychic reformation to gain the "Corpsegrafter" chain, injures himself terribly, and then UMDs a single-charged staff of enervate. Which turns him into a Wight (with a spell). So, now you have an Ex-illithid Wight (ECL 8) with all of the benefits of the corpsegrafter feats. Use a thought bottle to regain your XP. Start with two levels of Emancipated spawn. Then UMD a staff of Clone to make a few clones of yourself (I know that an undead clone is odd, but it is RAW legal). Now Recall your levels of Illithid savant. Now eat a clone's brain. Steal the class ability "Recall class features." :Devil OK, that can result in two things. One is even more muchkin-y then I would attempt: Use the stolen 'Recalled class feature' to recall your illithid savant levels again. The second is slightly not quite so completely gamebreaking in an infinite loop of stolen abilities. You recall the psionic illithid monster class features. Then you use UMD a staff of Gate to call a greater doppelganger (Monsters of Faerun). And steal it's "Consume identity" ability. Which is basically 3*'Aquire everything,' except you can swap out old identities, and with a will save have more then 3. So you now have an ECL 8 character capable of stealing just about as many abilities as he likes. At this point you can, if you like, Spell-stich yourself. You can also use a dorje of True mind switch to become a living illithid again, but with your all 1d12s HP total (and with this character I would take the Faerie mysteries initiate feat). And Spell-like abilities if you were Spell stitched. And most of the benefits of being Corpsegrafted. I would also have, upon becoming a wight, undergone the Ritual of association (to Spirit folk) and taken the "Magic in the blood" regional feat. Which makes ever spell stitched spell-like ability 3/day. You have a turn resistance of around +10, so being ECL 10 with 6 HD isn't awful. Still, going the living route is probably safer. And you can Gate in (using your staff at 6,147.5 gp a pop) all of the creatures whose abilities you want to steal. If you like, you could start gaining levels in illithid savant or something (starting at level 1, you only have the abilities, not the levels). Or you just chill at ECL 10 and spend huge amounts of XP to siphon off the huge amounts of XP you'll be gaining.
wtfpwned 12-01-04, 06:07 PM	Pointless builds that required a lot of extra work. I can beat yas all with about a thousand times less cheese/walking on the edge of rule breaking. cleric 1/wizard 9/Dweomoerkeeper 10. TaDA!!
Cheiro 12-01-04, 10:24 PM	Actually I took down most of it since it was BOVD and someone complained I was too evil here's bare bones what you need Rapid spell feat (complete divine) Reach Spell to give touch spells range Chain Spell to affect many more targets Distill joy or liquid pain Spells (casting time 1 day) (the spell from BOED is only level 2 rather than 3 and the product isn't dangerous) Rapid take the casting time down to 1 hour (if your DM plays that you can stack metamagics of the same type all you need is rapid spell and bring it down to 1 action. Liquid pain is 4th level, and has a casting time of 1 day. Rapid spell doesn't apply to it, since the casting time isn't in hours. Applying reach spell makes it a ray, which is not an effect that can be chained. See page 175 of the PHB; target = 1 creature is different from a ray. Anyway, chain spell is +3 caster levels, reach spell is +2 levels, rapid spell is +1 level, so we are talking a 10th level spell. Which is doable, but not easily at the kind of levels that the Cheater of Mystra operates at. Wish + Thought Bottle + a friendly succubus is probably more reliable. Anyways, thanks for your combo. I have been wondering for a while how it all worked.