Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vylikas 11-30-06, 09:53 PM	EDIT: I constructed this build from an older CustServ ruling. The definitive ruling does not allow this build to work by RAW. The Ultimate Sneak Attacker (hereafter referred to as the "USA") Average of 300+ damage a round, bypasses Uncanny Dodge and Sneak Attack immunity Thanks to GaffeR for the help with the Robilar's Gambit trick by pointing me out to the Jack B. Quick thread, and Tleilaxu_Ghola for the oh-so-useful Tome of Battle tricks thread! The Build: (uses the Waking Lands Invisible Blade, which is the original design of the PrC creator, which Wizards adapted. It uses a swift action uncanny feint as well, but has a free action attack of opportunity greater uncanny feint later on in it’s career, making it less powerful than the pre-errata’d Invisible Blade but slightly more powerful than the post-errata’d Invisible Blade. This is the only aspect of the build which deviates from RAW, which I think you’ll agree is not much of a deviation at all) Swordsage 1/Rogue 1 (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft Penetrating Strike Feature)/Fighter 2/Invisible Blade 10/Guild Thief 5/Swashbuckler 1 1: Rogue 1/ <Combat Reflexes> +4 to bluff, +4 sense motive, +3 to Gather Info, +4 to Hide, +3 to Move silently 2: Swashbuckler 1/ <Weapon Finesse> 3: Fighter 1/ <Vexing Flanker>, <Point Blank Shot>, +2 to intimidate 4: Fighter 2/ <Weapon Focus (Dagger)> +1 to intimidate 5: Swordsage 1/ +4 to bluff +2 sense motive (take stance: Island of Blades, SH1) 6: Invisible Blade 1/<Adaptable Flanker>, +4 to hide 7: Guild Thief 1 8: Guild Thief 2/ <TWF> 9: Guild Thief 3/ <ITWF> 10: Guild Thief 4/ <Craven> 11: Guild Thief 5 12: Invisible Blade 2/ <Shadow Blade or Staggering Strike> 13: Invisible Blade 3 14: Invisible Blade 4 15: Invisible Blade 5/ <Robilar’s Gambit> 16: Invisible Blade 6 17: Invisible Blade 7 18: Invisible Blade 8/ <GTWF> 19: Invisible Blade 9 20: Invisible Blade 10 Final Stats: +9d6 + 20 Sneak Attack, +18 BAB (fractional), +17 BAB (normal) PrC entry is rather precarious so I’ve put in some possible partial skill allocations to prove that all PrCs can be qualified for. Intelligence modifier of +0 is assumed, though it would likely be higher. The trick(s): This build relies on HotSake's Island of Blades + Adaptable Flanker trick. (We both came up with it alone, but he figured it out first... I just fleshed it out into a build that takes advantage of it) The Swordsage's 1st level Island of Blades stance means that as long as he has an “ally” adjacent to a creature he is adjacent to (it needs not be the square in the opposite direction) the creature is considered flanked. The Adaptable Flanker feat allows him to designate any square which he threatens as occupied for the purposes of flanking. Therefore, with careful placement of the occupied square, the Ultimate Sneak Attacker can self-flank any creature (or more!) in his threat range. In other words, he's always flanking anything in his threat range, which means all his attacks are sneak attacks. He can keep this up as long as he wants, since stances can be kept up indefinitely, and he doesn't even need ToB maneuver recovery feats like Adaptive Style. In fact, in some cases, he can be flanking two or more enemies at once, all by himself. (see Appendix on the IoB/AF trick for diagrams showing how) Now rules lawyers might be yelling “Hey! You can’t do that. You are not your own ally!” in which case I point to a similar trick that uses the exact same mechanism: the spiked chain self-flanker. The spiked chain self-flanker uses Adaptable Flanker to designate the square behind any opponent adjacent to him using the 10 foot reach of the spiked chain to flank by himself, and It has been confirmed by CustServ that this is legal, even though the wording of flanking does indeed say it has to be an “ally”. So nyah. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=669441 Originally Posted by Customer Service Q The Adaptable Flanker feat allows you to count as occupying multiple squares that you threaten for the purposes of flanking bonuses. If you have reach and can threaten squares on opposite sides of a creature by yourself, can you then flank that creature by yourself? If so, does this mean that a rogue with Adaptable Flanker and a spiked chain can get sneak attack on any medium creature? A That is a great question! The answer is yes. You need 4 feats to do this, but it does sound like fun. AND Originally Posted by Customer Service Q Can the feat Adaptable Flanker allow you to flank by yourself? If so, does that mean a rogue with a spiked chain and Adaptable Flanker can get sneak attack on any medium creature because they're able to flank by themselves? A Yes indeed you can flank by yourself. Yes so long as the foe meets the other prerequisites for sneak attack damage and can be flanked. In fact, this is an even better version of the spiked chain self-flanker because he can utilize TWF for extra attacks! Now I know what you’re going to ask: “Wait! Won’t this trick be ruined if the enemy has Uncanny Dodge, a fairly easy to acquire special ability that makes the opponent immune to flanking?” That is where the SECOND trick jumps in. First of all, the Invisible Blade’s Uncanny Feint allows one swift action feint, which means uncanny dodge characters will be susceptible to one sneak attack, at least. Feinting is the only non-epic way to sneak attack Uncanny Dodgers. But with the Waking Lands Invisible Blade’s Greater Uncanny Feint, the USA can make a free action bluff check to deny dex to AC before all attacks of opportunity. So, with a high enough bluff check, all of the USA's AoOs deal SA damage. But of course, AoO’s are few and far between, and any combatant worth his salt can figure out how to avoid them. That alone isn’t enough to take out an uncanny dodge character. That is why the USA has the feat Robilar’s Gambit. Robilar’s Gambit pumps attacks of opportunities for every attack, hit or miss, against the USA. Thus, the USA in effect returns a sneak attack for every attack against him or her. This trick, albeit defensive in nature, can deal out massive amounts of damage by itself, but in conjunction with the previous trick it makes the character absolutely ludicrous. It gets even better. With the Shadow Blade feat, the USA adds his dex mod to damage, dealing even MORE damage. With the Staggering Strike feat, the USA disables his opponents so they can only make one standard action in retaliation. But most importantly, with the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft "Penetrating Strike" rogue class feature, all of the USA's sneak attacks will deal half damage against immune to SA creatures as well! That's right, constructs, undead, oozes, plants, you name it. They're all susceptible, and the build doesn't sacrifice anything, since it doesn't even have enough rogue levels to have Trap Sense (which is the ability you trade in to get Penetrating Strike) in the first place. In summary: The only way to escape being sneak attacked (a lot) by this monstrosity is to be immune to sneak attacks in the first place. Even then, with penetrating strike, immunes will still take half damage. {Edit1} Thanks to Ghoststepper for enlightening me to the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft "Penetrating Strike" class feature! {Edit2} Thanks to LordMongoose for pointing out that double hit doesn't count as a seperate attack of opportunity, which means the USA can't apply sneak attack damage to the bonus hit, since he only gets one bluff check per attack of opportunity. {Edit3} Thanks to Esponer for suggesting use of Staggering Strike. {Edit4} Edited post to make it easier to read and more succinct. {Edit5} Added link to the Customer Service ruling {Edit6} Gave credit where it's due: HotSake came up with the IoB/AF trick first.
vylikas 11-30-06, 09:54 PM	Damage calculations: BAB= 15/10/5/0, Offhand = 15/10/5 (after accounting for TWF penalties) = 7 attacks Damage per attack: 1d4 + 9d6 + 20 (NOT accounting magical enchantments, strength, or dexterity from Shadow Blade) Assuming all attacks hit: Minimum damage per round: (1 + 9 + 20) * 7 = 210 damage Average damage per round: (2 + 27 + 20) * 7 = 343 damage Maximum damage per round: (4 + 54 + 20) * 7 = 546 damage (Halve the damage for formerly immune to sneak attack monsters) Note that this damage can literally be dealt EVERY round as long as an enemy is in range as the USA needs no circumstantial prerequisites to set up his attacks (unlike Leap/Charge Power Attackers). Furthermore, the USA has VAST amounts more damage per round than can be calculated owing to his attack of opportunity sneak attacks, which depends on how many times enemies attack him. The only weakness to this is that the BAB, although decent, is not exactly stellar, so the character is in danger of whiffing, which would take chunks from his damage. I made this build mostly as a thought experiment, to see how far one could push sneak attack to its furthest possible limits (and just try and figure out a way to crank out high numbers). I hadn't considered playing this build, until the oh so wonderful Ghoststepper told me about the Penetrating Strike class feature for rogues in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. In any case, although the USA putters slightly with a slow level 1-5 start, he is largely playable, indeed, powerful, throughout his progression: Levels 1 to 5 it will be a slightly incompetent fighter since he’ll probably be specializing in Dex and will have lots of wasted feats, but could still prove helpful to the party by flanking with vexing flanker or throwing daggers. Plus first level rogue means that he can work as an adequate skill monkey. Levels 6 to 10 he really comes into his own as he picks up the primary self-flanking trick, gains a ton of sneak attack dice and nabs TWF attacks. Plus he gets tons of skill points from guild thief. Level 12+ the USA will be already pretty deadly but will truly manifest as the monster he is when craven kicks in thus increasing his damage by boatloads Level 15+: picking up Robilar’s Gambit at 15 will be icing on the cake as attackers who open themselves up for AoOs will likely already be in position to be flanked by Island of Blades + Adaptable Flanker. Level 20: The USA will finally be able to dish out the d6s against his nemesis: rogues, barbarians and Uncanny Dodgers (that are not four levels below him). Possible Alternative Modifications to the build: 1. (Highly recommended if you actually want to play him) Switch out one level of Guild Thief for another level of rogue. You get the almighty evasion at the expense of one sneak attack dice, and one extra point to BAB if you’re not playing fractional. I only maximized sneak attack dice in the presented build just to crank out maximum numbers. Lose a little bit of offense for a lot of defense. 2. If you took the above change, you could swap out Point Blank Shot (a useless feat) for Improved Initiative (a slightly less useless feat), grab 2 ranks of hide and 10 ranks of Move Silently, and then swap out Invisible Blade for Nightsong Enforcer. If you do this then you could scrap Robilar's Gambit for something else (though creatures which provoke AoOs from you are likely already going to be flanked by your IoB/AF trick anyways). You lose another d6 of SA, and become pretty much defenseless against Uncanny Dodgers, but in return you get the awesome Improved Evasion, flanking bonuses (which synergize so well with the primary trick) and the Nightsong Enforcer's insane teamwork bonuses. Plus, you can throw away Weapon Focus (Dagger) for another feat, therefore giving you the possibility of having Staggering Strike AND Shadow Blade at the same time. Although you lose the IB's Unfettered Defense ability, you get the Nightsong Enforcer's light armor ACP reduction, which means in reality you're just getting less MAD since you can focus entirely on DEX. The build is not that much weaker because at 21st level, he can take the epic feat Sneak Attack of Opportunity, which is exactly like Greater Uncanny Feint, except you don't need to rely on your bluff check. Therefore, this alternative allows the character to take out Uncanny Dodgers at level 21, as opposed to level 20 like the original build. You do need to go epic, however. Furthermore, Sneak Attack of Opportunity works with Double Hit, thus letting you return TWO Sneak Attacks per attack against you. Plus, you aren't confined to using dagger weapons, which is great if you think daggers are for wussies. 3. If you really hate those Uncanny Dodgers that much, you could take the original build and advance levels of Invisible Blade first before Guild Thief. I don't recommend this though since your TWF progression will be retarded greatly, making the primary self-flanking trick that the build relies on for sheer damage much less effective from levels 10-18. {Edit} Yet again thanks to the wonderful GhostStepper for taking this build from theoretical to viable. {Edit2} Edited to make it easier to read, and added alternative build construction with Nightsong Enforcer.
vylikas 11-30-06, 09:56 PM	Appendix: Double Self-Flanking diagrams (This has really got more to do with the Island of Blades + Adaptable Flanker trick itself, but whatever) Key: b = enemy, x = designated occupied square, o = unoccupied area you threaten, u = the USA Two enemies in front on either corner (flip upside down for behind): bxb ouo ooo One enemy in front, one at the side (flip mirror image for other side): xbo buo ooo Two enemies side by side (flip mirror image for other side, flip upside down for behind, rotate 90 degrees for front and back): bxo buo ooo You getting flanked (flip upside down for alternative square placement, rotate 90 degrees for flank from another direction) oxo bub ooo Your only blind spot is if the enemies flank you diagonally (see below, flip mirror image for other side) in which case you can only flank one of them. In this case, your best bet is to throw all attacks against one guy and hope for the best (hopefully your return AoO sneak attacks will take out your other flanker... and hopefully he isn't a frenzied berserker who can one shot you with a power attack). You cannot activate your uncanny feint swift action bluff because that is already used up by your Adaptable Flanker feat. boo oxo oob Quadruple Self-Flanking diagram! In the highly rare occasion (I’m thinking your DM ought to be smarter than this) that the enemies line up around you like so (rotate 90 degrees for different configurations): bbo xuo bbo You would place your adaptable flanker occupied square on the x. That’s right; you’re flanking four people by yourself at once! If you have enough attacks you could distribute the sneak attacks between the four of them, taking out four guys at once! Badass. Having an ally will sweeten the deal of course, increasing the number of flankable baddies up to six. This Island of Blades + Adaptable Flanker trick is obviously extremely abusable, which is why I am working on a new build that capitalizes on the trick, but is more flexible. It’ll be using things like Tactics of the Wolf and Battle Cunning to increase damage against flanked opponents which DON’T rely on the enemy being susceptible to sneak attack, and using tiger claw maneuvers to round it out so that it doesn’t entirely rely on flanking (so that those darn uncanny dodge buggers don’t get away). It won’t have as impressive numbers as the USA in terms of sheer raw damage, though. And of course, since it’ll be using things mostly taken from the ToB, it’ll probably fit more into the ToB build compendium. Almost all ToB builds are completely superior to normal melee builds (they actually stand a chance against casters!) anyways. {Edit1} Changed some details on the diagonal flank diagram. You can't activate your swift uncanny feint and adaptable flanker at the same time. Thanks Esponar! {Edit2} Not enough praises could be sung for the awesome GhostStepper
LordMongoose 11-30-06, 10:09 PM	I'd replace Double Hit with Shadow Blade. It reduces MAD by a ton, not to mention that if you feel like keeping strength high, it's an addition, not a replacement. That will boost your damage output tremendously. Daggers of Speed are pretty sexy, while we're at it. 9 attacks instead of 7? Where do I sign up? Are there any buffs/magic items that can let you SA things that aren't normally susceptible?
Eilrahc 11-30-06, 10:15 PM	Are there any buffs/magic items that can let you SA things that aren't normally susceptible? Yes, Complete Adventurer, reprinted in Spell Compendium, Golem Strike, Grave Strike and Vine Strike, all first level spells. Unfortunately, after much searching, the only thing that has ever enabled me to effectively use them on items for the multliple sneak attack builds I use was a nice DM. One thing you might want to add to the progression for later levels (so epic then:p) is 4 levels of Bloodstorm Blade. Depending on the reading of Martial Throw, how may be able to do all this at range too! Depends whether you count as threatening or not.
GhostStepper 11-30-06, 10:16 PM	Wait a sec..how do you feint the Uncanny dodge character as a free action when he provokes an attack of opportunity and its not your turn? Oh, and every rogue i will ever make gets Penetrating Strike. It lets you get half SA damage against things that are immune as long as you flank them.
vylikas 11-30-06, 10:20 PM	Wait a sec..how do you feint the Uncanny dodge character as a free action when he provokes an attack of opportunity and its not your turn? Oh, and every rogue i will ever make gets Penetrating Strike. It lets you get half SA damage against things that are immune as long as you flank them. http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_invisible_blade.htm "Greater Uncanny Feint (Ex): At 10th level, the invisible blade can make a single Bluff check to feint in combat as a free action during an attack of opportunity (in addition to the swift action feint in combat during their turn). This ability only functions when the invisible blade is wielding one or more daggers, kukris, or punching daggers." It doesn't say a single Bluff check "per round", so I figure that it basically means every time you get an attack of opportunity you get a bluff check. By single I think it means you can't take ten with the bluff check, which the invisible blade gets as an ability: to take ten for any bluff check for feinting even when under stress. Depending on your reading, the extra attack you get from double hit may or may not be an attack of opportunity. A cruel DM would likely rule it as not though, in which case you're only getting one sneak attack for every swing against you, which is still pretty good. This frees up a feat actually, since you can now scrap double hit, which is not a total loss. That's the original IB build, btw the one the creator recommends. By the way WHERE DO YOU GET THAT FEAT?!?!
Eilrahc 11-30-06, 10:20 PM	Wait a sec..how do you feint the Uncanny dodge character as a free action when he provokes an attack of opportunity and its not your turn? I was under the impression a free action can be taken whenever you like, it's only a swift that has to be done in your turn.
Esponer 11-30-06, 10:23 PM	Staggering Strike (feat) would be interesting in this situation. It can be found in Complete Adventurer: it doesn't improve the raw damage but it's a very handy feat for a sneak attacker to have. Beyond that, obviously, your concern is getting sneak attack to work more often. I'm not sure if there are that many options for doing that. Also note that if you're using Adaptable Flanker every round, you're using all your swift/immediate actions. You'll need Greater Uncanny Feint — Uncanny Feint alone is no use to you. Lastly, I do believe free actions can only be taken on your turn unless they state otherwise. Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. ... Speak In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
GhostStepper 11-30-06, 10:47 PM	I was under the impression a free action can be taken whenever you like, it's only a swift that has to be done in your turn. Lastly, I do believe free actions can only be taken on your turn unless they state otherwise. I was under the impression that you cant take a free action when its not your turn unless specifically stated otherwise as well. There would be no reason to make speaking a special example if this were not so. Also, this would really mess up the deffinition of swift action which says "you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take", as well as "You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action". According to this part of the rules, you can take a swift action only during your turn and you can take a swift action anytime you would be able to take a free action..to fit both of these conditions we must conclude that you can normally only take a free action on your turn. The other tricky bit of rule-lawyery involves the status of AoOs as "actions". By the english deffinition, sure an attack of opportunity is an action but in DnD an "action" has a specialized meaning. There are technically only standard, movement, free, swift and immediate actions so one could argue that AoOs arent "actions" by strict the strict DnD deffinition. If this is the case you would not be able to make free action concurrently with AoOs as AoOs are nonactions. And just think about all the abuse that would occur if you really could perform free actions anytime. People would have been casting Quickened spells anytime they like before the swift action was invented.
vylikas 11-30-06, 10:48 PM	I was under the impression a free action can be taken whenever you like, it's only a swift that has to be done in your turn. I'm sure you're thinking about the pre-errata'd Invisible Blade, who was nerfed to all hell. The pre-errata'd IB had free action feints, which would have made the whole "Island of Blades + Adaptable Flanker" trick completely redundant as he could apply sneak attack damage to every single attack by that one ability alone, at the cost of only five levels in a PrC that gives full BAB and sneak attack already. If we still had access to that, one could make far more frightening sneak attack builds (Think about combining it with Nightsong Enforcer... *shudder*) but even I can admit that's kind of broken, which is why WoTC nerfed it so that it became a SWIFT action. Instead, I'm using the original IB PrC that was published in Dragon by the original creator of the class, which Wizards cut down into five levels. Wizards liked the original version and asked if they could publish it, so I figure had it not been for their changes, that this version probably would have been the one printed anyways... it's not like they buffed it beyond belief by making the key ability a FREE action :rolleyes: BTW I just found where penetrating strike is: the brand new Expedition to Castle Ravenloft 0_0 Furthermore, it's a class feature which means it doesn't even take up a feat! What you do to get it is give up trap sense which this build doesn't even have anyway with it's one to two levels of rogue!! I think this build just became viable for normal play. All you need is to convince the DM to allow you to use the online IB... which shouldn't be too hard if you compare it to the actual printed version. If your DM actually lets you use the original printed version, w/o the errata, then you probably ought to be making something along the lines of XXX/IB5/Nightsong Enforcer8...
Deadlast 11-30-06, 10:50 PM	Ok this gets alittle confusing, but the way swift, immediate, and free actions work is this. They are all literarly the same thing. Swift and free are pretty much synonomous. Its like a quickened spell, but your using it for another type of action. You only get one per round. The ONLY difference between immediate and the rest, is it can be done on an opponents turn. For example, there is a counterspelling class that lets you counter spell as an immediate action, without reserving your turn. So during your turn you can take a normal action, but no swift, immediate, or free actions, because that use is spent counterspelling on the enemies turn. So to sum up simply what i made complicated, you get one per round, not one of each per round.
vylikas 11-30-06, 10:53 PM	I was under the impression that you cant take a free action when its not your turn unless specifically stated otherwise as well. There would be no reason to make speaking a special example if this were not so. Also, this would really mess up the deffinition of swift action which says "you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take", as well as "You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action". Well this is one of those cases where it is stated specifically otherwise. I repeat: "Greater Uncanny Feint (Ex): At 10th level, the invisible blade can make a single Bluff check to feint in combat as a free action during an attack of opportunity (in addition to the swift action feint in combat during their turn). This ability only functions when the invisible blade is wielding one or more daggers, kukris, or punching daggers." (emphasis mine) http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_invisible_blade.htm
Esponer 11-30-06, 10:54 PM	Deadlast, free actions are not the same as swift actions: swift actions are limited to one per round, whereas free actions are not technically limited. You can perform as many free actions as the DM allows you to perform.
alzoron 11-30-06, 10:56 PM	Free Action - One or more per round on your turn. Swift action - Like a Free Action except only once a round. Immediate Action - Like a Swift Action but at any time. Edit: Others beat me to it, but mine's more consise :)
vylikas 11-30-06, 11:01 PM	Also note that if you're using Adaptable Flanker every round, you're using all your swift/immediate actions. You'll need Greater Uncanny Feint — Uncanny Feint alone is no use to you. -Esponer Hmm that's true. The swift uncanny feint will still work against the enemy with uncanny dodge if he is the only enemy you're facing, since obviously with no other enemies around you're not activating Adaptable Flanker. The USA is really screwed, however, if his enemies managed to get into his "blind spot", which is the diagonal flank. I suppose the best thing he can do at this point is to channel all damage against one of his flankers and hope for the best. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll edit the Appendix accordingly.
GhostStepper 11-30-06, 11:05 PM	Well this is one of those cases where it is stated specifically otherwise. I repeat: "Greater Uncanny Feint (Ex): At 10th level, the invisible blade can make a single Bluff check to feint in combat as a free action during an attack of opportunity (in addition to the swift action feint in combat during their turn). This ability only functions when the invisible blade is wielding one or more daggers, kukris, or punching daggers." (emphasis mine) http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_invisible_blade.htm This changes the whole thing since it makes an explicit exception to the normal rules for free attacks. Perhaps WoTC removed this because they thought it was too good? BTW I just found where penetrating strike is: the brand new Expedition to Castle Ravenloft 0_0 Furthermore, it's a class feature which means it doesn't even take up a feat! What you do to get it is give up trap sense which this build doesn't even have anyway with it's one to two levels of rogue!! Yes, isnt it sweet? And every cleric i make will have Destroy Undead instead of trying to convince DMs to use the CD alternate turning rules.
vylikas 11-30-06, 11:12 PM	This changes the whole thing since it makes an explicit exception to the normal rules for free attacks. Perhaps WoTC removed this because they thought it was too good? If you actually read Complete Warrior you would know that the version WoTC printed was even better, giving unlimited free action bluffs that don't require an attack of opportunity to the IB at level five. That means that the IB could feint as much as he wants during his full attacks, meaning not only that he would have full attack sneak attacks (which makes the Island of Blades + Adaptable Flanker trick redundant) but that they would bypass Uncanny Dodge. They errata'd that out of course. This version is the original class that they modified to fit in a 5-level progression. As you can see, the original author was smart enough to realize that straight up free action feints would be too much. Thus, this version of the IB was never "removed" from anything. WoTC took something great (this original version) and mangled it up into first and overpowered five level PrC, and then into a completely useless five level PrC. It's really not as powerful as you might think, as the creator wasn't aware of Robilar's Gambit (PHBII wasn't published yet, I don't think). Even then, all someone needs to do to bypass it is to use ranged attacks. Yes, isnt it sweet? And every cleric i make will have Destroy Undead instead of trying to convince DMs to use the CD alternate turning rules. I shall add this at once. Thanks!
GhostStepper 11-30-06, 11:26 PM	I wasnt really trying to say i thought is was too good, just that perhaps some editor thought free bluffs on AoOs was too good.
vylikas 11-30-06, 11:43 PM	I wasnt really trying to say i thought is was too good, just that perhaps some editor thought free bluffs on AoOs was too good. Actually, to be honest, even *I'm* starting to think it's too good, now with the Penetrating Strike feature. I mean, if I were a DM I would figure out some house rule to stop this guy in his tracks. Notice that it does an average of 300+ damage PER ROUND, straight from RAW without magical items. And I'm not counting in the additional damage from the Robilar's Gambit + Free Action AoO Bluffs trick since that isn't RAW though it's pretty damn close to it. (one single epic level can give you the epic feat "Sneak Attack of Opportunity") With daggers of speed... *shudder*. And Multi-limb races like Thri-Kreens... *double shudder*. And... and... My God, I think it might even trump (dare I say it) the power attacker. *gasp* Not to jinx my own build or anything, but the thing is, I don't think WoTC is going to nerf this... since CustServ has said that the spiked chain + adaptable flanker self flanking combo works... if they somehow broke the Island of Blades + adaptable combo through an errata, they'd be contradicting themselves. If anything, I think it's the Penetrating Strike class feature that is broken because without it then the USA can have his ass handed to him with the right enemy. GhostStepper, are you sure there aren't more drawbacks to it? Given the context of it coming from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, are you sure it works for ALL immune to sneak attack creatures, instead of say, just undead?
GhostStepper 12-01-06, 12:05 AM	If anything, I think it's the Penetrating Strike class feature that is broken because without it then the USA can have his ass handed to him with the right enemy. GhostStepper, are you sure there aren't more drawbacks to it? Given the context of it coming from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, are you sure it works for ALL immune to sneak attack creatures, instead of say, just undead? Id quote it word for word but since its not in the SRD im not allowed. It says its works against any creature that is immune to sneak attack (its true!), and you must be flanking them. You cannot use this against creatures that you cant flank normally though (like a beholder, but then the Darkstalker feat fixes that). The only other draw back is only a bit of a role-playing one: you must be a member of the "Lightbringers". The only requirement there is that you meet them and tell them you hate undead, vowing to kill a certain number each year.
vylikas 12-01-06, 12:35 AM	I'd replace Double Hit with Shadow Blade. It reduces MAD by a ton, not to mention that if you feel like keeping strength high, it's an addition, not a replacement. That will boost your damage output tremendously. Well right now, just about every single ounce of damage output is coming from sneak attack. I didn’t account for ANY STR in my damage calculations and the numbers are already obscenely high, so I’m not sure why you think the build currently has MAD. It pretty much only needs DEX and INT to work, maybe some WIS to buffer its poor will save. Shadow Blade will definitely increase the raw damage output by a fair amount (Dex mod * # of attacks? Hell yes!) but I think that after a certain point the character will simply be dealing too much damage. Ancient dragons have only, what, 500 hit points? What’s more important is that the character can take out those bastards with Uncanny Dodge. Since barbarians can probably deal ridiculous amounts of damage with power attack, I wanted to make sure that the Robilar’s Gambit return attacks would scale up high enough to have the USA at least come out on top in terms of damage per hit. If the DM rules that double hit doesn’t count as two separate AoOs then yes, I think replacing Double Hit with Shadow Blade would be much better. But I think a more defensive feat would be even better (If I could only fit in Elusive Target!) What I need to figure out is a way to make the character more defensive. It’s currently a glass cannon, capable of dealing out lots of damage but not able to take very much. Heavy Armor (amazingly, the USA can wear it without losing his sneak attacks! lol) would kill the character’s BAB since he needs a high dex for TWF and relies on dex through weapon finesse. The Invisible Blade’s unfettered defense ability helps mitigate the AC somewhat though. Daggers of Speed are pretty sexy, while we're at it. 9 attacks instead of 7? Where do I sign up? That’s only the tip of the iceberg. Right now the build uses zero magical items. He’ll need an item that grants darkvision, of course. But asides from that, everything else is free game. He doesn’t need stealth items since he deals his sneak attacks through flanking, not invisibility or hides. In fact, he doesn’t need much of anything. The possibilities are staggering. Yes, Complete Adventurer, reprinted in Spell Compendium, Golem Strike, Grave Strike and Vine Strike, all first level spells. Unfortunately, after much searching, the only thing that has ever enabled me to effectively use them on items for the multliple sneak attack builds I use was a nice DM. Well, if the Penetrating Strike thing doesn’t work, then maybe I’ll throw out a few levels of… something… and make it a Gish. I’ll use the epic feat “Sneak Attack of Opportunity” in place of the IB Greater Uncanny Feint: both come only at the very end of the USA’s career. One thing you might want to add to the progression for later levels (so epic then:p) is 4 levels of Bloodstorm Blade. Depending on the reading of Martial Throw, how may be able to do all this at range too! Depends whether you count as threatening or not. Errr, no that’s not going to work. Even if you counted all of your thrown dagger range as threatened area for melee, your body still needs to be next to the creature in question to flank it. You need two occupied squares to complete a flank, even with the Island of Blades trick. Though with an ally tanking for you… hmm… intriguing. But nonetheless, I don’t like going into Epic. I mean, everything is already so ridiculously powerful in Epic that it really isn’t worth optimizing, is it? X_X Staggering Strike (feat) would be interesting in this situation. It can be found in Complete Adventurer: it doesn't improve the raw damage but it's a very handy feat for a sneak attacker to have. Beyond that, obviously, your concern is getting sneak attack to work more often. I'm not sure if there are that many options for doing that. I had thought about that, but I couldn’t fit that many feats (I’m already struggling to fit in twelve feats… the build is already groaning from the pressure, seeing as how it’s full up to twenty levels) and besides, although Staggering Strike does disable opponents greatly (one standard action! Woot) and with this build you can just keep doing that indefinitely, considering that this is a massive damage build I would think the enemy would be dead from the 300+ damage you deal once you get in a full attack. Though I bet you could use the same Island of Blades + Adaptable Flanker trick to create a disabling build quite easily. The actual requirements of Island of Blades + Adaptable Flanker are actually extremely easy to meet, needing only one level of swordsage and three feats. If I didn’t have to qualify for Invisible Blade, then I’d have plenty of feats to work with… but that’s an entirely different character altogether. Besides, if you limit your enemies to a single standard action, then you don’t get as much mileage out of the Robilar’s Gambit trick. Id quote it word for word but since its not in the SRD im not allowed. It says its works against any creature that is immune to sneak attack (its true!), and you must be flanking them. You cannot use this against creatures that you cant flank normally though (like a beholder, but then the Darkstalker feat fixes that). The only other draw back is only a bit of a role-playing one: you must be a member of the "Lightbringers". The only requirement there is that you meet them and tell them you hate undead, vowing to kill a certain number each year. Wow. I need to grab Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. That’s ridiculously amazing, and I’m afraid WOTC is going to nerf it since it seems that what they really mean is that it works against undead. Let’s hope they don’t. As for the beholder problem, I don’t have room for the darkstalker feat. But the Beholder is still susceptible to attacks of opportunities and feints… and all those eyes are delicious vital spots… which means they cannot escape the power of the USA either! Bwahahahaha (unlike osama bin laden…sorry bad joke) P.S. I believe you can use an sblock or quotation marks to circumvent the fact that it’s not SRD?
GhostStepper 12-01-06, 12:59 AM	Errr, no that’s not going to work. Even if you counted all of your thrown dagger range as threatened area for melee, your body still needs to be next to the creature in question to flank it. You need two occupied squares to complete a flank, even with the Island of Blades trick. Depends on how far you take the "counting as melee" aspect of the class abilities. If it count as melee attacks you should be able to feint and get your sneak attacks at range.
LordMongoose 12-01-06, 04:36 AM	It's not MAD to a painful extent, but everything is MAD to some point or another. Shadow Blade helps you consolidate. And it's stupid good. Also, why would wearing heavy armor kill your attack bonus? Max Dex is Max Dex to AC, not to attack bonus (weapon finesse), damage bonus (Shadow Blade), or anything else. And I'm fairly sure Double Hit isn't a second AoO, it's just a second hit within the one AoO. Does it chew up another AoO from Combat Reflexes? If so, then it is; otherwise, I'm pretty sure few DMs would rule it so.
vylikas 12-01-06, 01:11 PM	It's not MAD to a painful extent, but everything is MAD to some point or another. Shadow Blade helps you consolidate. And it's stupid good. Also, why would wearing heavy armor kill your attack bonus? Max Dex is Max Dex to AC, not to attack bonus (weapon finesse), damage bonus (Shadow Blade), or anything else. I'm fairly sure that the Swashbuckler's free Weapon Finesse feat only works if he is wearing light armor or less. I can't remember though. But even if he does wear heavy armor, he loses pretty much all of the Invisible Blade's abilities (including Unfettered Defense). What I need isn't higher AC though. Unfettered defense + massive dex would probably be enough for the build's AC to stay at satisfactory levels. What I need is either more HP, or damage reduction, because currently the build is very, very squishy. Robilar's Gambit gives a significant hit to AC, so I can't rely on AC alone when he's up against Uncanny Dodge characters. He'll need to take hits to activate his AoOs... Uncanny Dodge is the USA's achilles heel, I can't think of a way to work around it. And I'm fairly sure Double Hit isn't a second AoO, it's just a second hit within the one AoO. Does it chew up another AoO from Combat Reflexes? If so, then it is; otherwise, I'm pretty sure few DMs would rule it so. Yeah I don't think it does chew up another AoO from Combat Reflexes. It hits at the same time, but feint only works for one melee attack per feint. So I guess I could scrap double hit... still I think staggering strike might work better than Shadow Blade. I'll change it now. Thanks Lord Mongoose!
Elderich 12-01-06, 01:35 PM	this is almost as bad as 6 hit jack with the party artificer "Ninjaficating" him. But he gets 20D SA
vylikas 12-01-06, 02:12 PM	this is almost as bad as 6 hit jack with the party artificer "Ninjaficating" him. But he gets 20D SA Jack B. Quick did inspire me to try and use the Invisible Blade's Greater Uncanny Feint with Robilar's Gambit (as a way to bypass uncanny dodgers, the constant thorn to my side), but the main source of damage really comes from the build's full sneak attacks, which rely on HotSake's Island of Blades + Adaptable Flanker self-flanking trick, which was an improvement upon the Spiked Chain + Adaptable Flanker trick.
vylikas 12-01-06, 04:27 PM	Okay just for the hell of it, let’s give him +5 daggers of speed and Shadow Blade. He needs a minimum of 19 dex for GTWF, so let’s take 20 dex (I don’t even want to think about what it becomes after items) Damage per attack: 1d4 + 9d6 + 20 + 5 magical enchant + 5 dex w/ 9 attacks Minimum damage per round: (1 + 9 + 20 + 5 +5) * 9 = 360 damage a round Average damage per round: (2 + 27 + 20 + 5 +5) * 9 = 531 damage a round Maximum damage per round: (4 + 54 + 20 + 5 + 5) * 9 = 792 damage a round Halved for immunes, not counting attacks of opportunities... Wow... I wonder if there is any way to bypass Uncanny Dodge any earlier... or maybe Uncanny Dodge is to this build as Elusive Target is to power attack...
Melil13 12-01-06, 04:28 PM	Lets not forget all of the wonderful spells that allow you to sneak attack undead/constructs/and plants .... i am not sure about oozes ... but how many of them do you see.(level 1 wiz/sor Golm strike/1 cleric ghoststrike/ 1 druid vinestrike) The calculations estimated for these 3 spells on a ring always on affect is 12000. Thats if you can find a wizard/druid/cleric to put each spell on the ring.
Phoenix00 12-01-06, 05:25 PM	Lvl 15 build Rogue 3/Swordsage 1/Sorc 1/Invisible Blade 5/Unseen Seer 5 (For 2 Advanced Learning, Guarded Mine, and +2d6 Sneak Attack) 7d6 Sneak attack at lvl 15, will have a BAB of 16 at 20 if you have the last 5 lvls being a medium or better BAB class. Assassin also works but no golemstrike without using your advanced learning. I would probably continue Unseen Seer after lvl 15, you won’t have high level spells, but it does add versatility and more spell slots. As soon as you get 8th lvl slots, you can persist Hunter’s Eye for some more sneak attack. (Will be lvl 24 or 25 at the time). If you are going to be starting at epic lvls anyway I would do this build Wiz or Sorc 4/Swordsage 1/Invisible Blade 5/Unseen Seer 10 followed by more Unseen Seer in Epic Invisible Blade has no sneak attack pre requisites only feats, skill requirements, and defeating a worthy opponent with only dagger style weapons. You lose 2d6 sneak attack, but you pick up 1d6 sneak attack through hunter eye and 3 more lvls of spells. Not trying to create an arcane trickster with ray spells, no you are using unseen seer to be an “expert rogue” who has some divination abilities allowing him to hit his mark better. Important Spells Golem Strike (C Adv) with your Sorc or Wizard not Assassin True Strike with your Sorc, Wizard, or Assassin Critical Strike(C Adv) with your Sorc, Wizard, or Assassin, adds 1d6 sneak attack and doubles your threat range (as in Keen Edge), Swift Action 1 round 1st lvl Spell will be using this during the low levels if you don’t need to use Golem Strike. Persistable Insightful Feint (C Adv) with your Sorc, Wizard, or Assassin. +10 Insight Bonus to your next bluff check to feint swift action casting. Sniper Shot(C Adv) with your Sorc, Wizard, or Assassin. Allows you to sneak attack at any range for 1 round. Doesn’t help the main way of attacking, but if you are going to make 1 or 2 ranged attacks anyway, might as well. Swift Action Spell 1st level. Wraith Strike with your Sorc, Wizard, or Assassin. Persistable Grave Strike (C Adv) as your first Adapted Learning Vine Strike (C Adv)as your second Adapted Learning if you are a Sorc or Wizard (third if Assassin), Persistable even though Grave and Golem are not (did they make a mistake?) Golem Strike as your second Adapted Learning if you are an assassin. Hunter’s Eye (PHB II) as your third Adapted Learning if you are a Sorc or Wizard, Persistable if you are a sorc or wizard.
GaffeR 12-01-06, 06:20 PM	Damn, this is a nice little build ya got goin' on here. I think if it came down to Shadow Blade vs Staggering Strike, I'd go with the latter. This build seems to rely on full attacks (honestly, I didn't read all of this thread, it's huge). ***** slapping a dragon with a full sneak attack assault and sticking around is very very dangerous unless you kill it (I speak from personal experience).
DaveTheMagicWeasel 12-01-06, 06:29 PM	Well, I'd have expected Telling Blow to be in an always Sneak Attack build, though its not essential I guess. And this may be a bit of a departure, but I'd consider throwing in some Chameleon levels, in order to provide access to Grave Strike and Vine Strike from Divine Focus (I don't think there's another class that can get both, generic UA classes not-withstanding). If you take it all the way to 7 you can have Arcane Focus on as well for Distract Assailant, Golem Strike (or whatever its called), Critical Strike, etc
vylikas 12-01-06, 08:01 PM	Well, I'd have expected Telling Blow to be in an always Sneak Attack build, though its not essential I guess. Well, every single attack the build does is already a sneak attack, critical or not, so Telling Blow seems unnecessary (and I don't think any sane DM would rule that you get sneak attack damage twice on a critical'd sneak attack w/ telling blow... I think the feat explicitly states this too, but I don't have a PHBII near me right now) And this may be a bit of a departure, but I'd consider throwing in some Chameleon levels, in order to provide access to Grave Strike and Vine Strike from Divine Focus (I don't think there's another class that can get both, generic UA classes not-withstanding). If you take it all the way to 7 you can have Arcane Focus on as well for Distract Assailant, Golem Strike (or whatever its called), Critical Strike, etc I think that's kind of unnecessary since Expedition to Castle Ravenloft already provides a way for rogues to deal sneak attack damage against immunes, albeit at half damage, and with the ridiculous damage the build can deal out anyway half damage doesn't seem that bad. But if you want to try and make a Gish build using Chameleon, then be my guest. Lvl 15 build Rogue 3/Swordsage 1/Sorc 1/Invisible Blade 5/Unseen Seer 5 (For 2 Advanced Learning, Guarded Mine, and +2d6 Sneak Attack) <snip> [/LIST] I'm not sure if that build has enough feats... the main trick requires Vexing Flanker, Combat Reflexes and Adaptable Flanker alone. The build will also need Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus (Dagger) to meet the prerequisites of the Complete Warrior IB. That's already five, which is definitely not enough to fit in the entire TWF tree- and the extra attacks are where the sheer damage from the USA stems from. None of the classes give bonus feats, and a human only has seven... (I'm assuming you're using Human as a race or else there are going to be XP penalties) Mind calculating the damage potentials on that build? It'd be interesting to see if getting the Golem Strike, Vine Strike and Ghost Strike spells are worth the dip in damage. IMO not really because the original build can use the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft penetrating strike rogue class feature in order to deal half SA damage to SAimmune monsters... and since that build can already deal 300+ damage a round... still, at high levels, enemies are more often than not immune to SA, so it might be worth it. Damn, this is a nice little build ya got goin' on here. I think if it came down to Shadow Blade vs Staggering Strike, I'd go with the latter. This build seems to rely on full attacks (honestly, I didn't read all of this thread, it's huge). ***** slapping a dragon with a full sneak attack assault and sticking around is very very dangerous unless you kill it (I speak from personal experience). I thought about trying to fit in Dervish (lol) into this build as I was constructing it, but the feats and skills are precarious enough as it is and I don't think I have anywhere near enough wiggle room. The average damage per round with two +5 daggers of speed, counting in DEX/Shadowblade is already 531, and a Red Great Wyrm dragon has on average 660 HP. You should have a fair chance if you get the drop on the bastard (not to mention that it's already 6 CR's above the character) and you might even be able to drop him in one full attack if you're lucky. Note that two daggers of speed +5 is only the tip of the iceberg of a level 20 character's weath level, so with dex enhancing items I think it wouldn't be too difficult to drop a dragon in one full attack. We aren't accounting for the Robilar's Gambit trick either (though actually the dragon probably would drop the USA in one hit... but if it misses...). The surprise round also offers more attacks, and with the level one swordsage maneuver "Wolf Fang Strike", the USA gets two attacks for a standard action. But you're right. I need to figure out some more defensive tricks, but it's hard to fit in much of anything in the build at this point. It's a ravenous Feat Eater.
GaffeR 12-01-06, 09:09 PM	HP or no, there is no such thing as "Overkill".
Melil13 12-01-06, 09:12 PM	Not so dangerous if you are flanking and have it so the tank is takeing all the damage ... even if it comes down to it you can survive at least 1 attack and tumble away to safety. If it follow everything gets an AoO so chances are a dm won't have it chase you really ... As for feats as you say above i would go a different route .... Weapon Finesse ... TWF Tree (3) ... Craven ... Staggering strike .... and if you really need ac Improved Buckler Defense. That makes a pretty standard hard core hitter. Here is a basic core rule book build i am sure you all can improve on ... Rogue 1/Fighter2/Rogue17 {}=Fighter ()=Special rogue ability Weapon Finesse {Twf} {Improved Initaitve} Improved Buckler Defence Quick Draw Improved TWF (Staggering Strike) Craven (Greater TWF) ????? ????? Giveing up two rogue special abilities for feats ... limits you a little more. As for ending feats ... you can fit alot of cool stuff in there ... i haven't decided what i would put in there yet ... or choose to take two feats later and keep special abilities
EpicEvokerElf 12-01-06, 09:37 PM	You can't give up a class feature that you don't have. You can't give up trap sense for penetrating strike if you don't have/won't get trap sense. Bye-Bye SA's vs. immune creatures!
Daeger 12-01-06, 09:37 PM	I'm surprised to see Adaptive Flanker in use again. There was a thread about this in the past and the final conclusion, according to both RAW and Customer Service was that you still need an ally. Here's the question I submitted. Customer (Alex Wilson) 08/22/2006 06:36 PM Using a reach weapon and the feat 'Adaptive Flanker' from Player's Handbook 2, are you able to flank with yourself? Also, does the flanking bonus you receive count as actual flanking (meaning sneak attack), or do you just receive the bonus specifically? Response (Sam S.) 08/23/2006 08:08 AM Hi there Alex, You cannot flank someone with yourself. The basic rules of flanking state that you need two people to flank. If you are flanking with someone else with Adaptive Flanker, you do get to make sneak attacks. Take Care and Good Gaming! :) We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Sam Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST As I recall, after this, this spurred a lot of people to send in their own customer service question asking for a clarification, and this was indeed the final result.
Melil13 12-01-06, 09:46 PM	er minus 1 set of ???? and as a rogue from level 10 and ever few levelsafterwards you can pick from a list of specail abilities ... or instead take a extra feat .... :) so you do get those feats ... minus 1 cuz i did for get that ... and they would be in a scattered order but still you should all of those by level 15? i want say 15 but don't i am not sure. so you would be 18 rogue you can trade in 3 special abilities for feats s
GaffeR 12-01-06, 09:49 PM	Yet again we see the reason why Cust Serv has a reputation of giving conflicting and/or crazy answers. Personally, I believe one can flank with one's self with this trick. It'll probably come down to a DM call, however.
Daeger 12-01-06, 09:50 PM	I went and found the thread in the archive. Good thing for those time stamps or I would not have known where to look. http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-690854.html Sidenote: If a post looks like it contradicts itself, keep in mind that the archive doesn't save 'quotes', so we're probably just quoting each other.
Melil13 12-01-06, 09:59 PM	Rogue 1/Fighter2/Rogue17 {}=Fighter ()=Special rogue ability 1weapon finesse 2{Twf} 3Improved Buckler Defence{improved Initiative} 4 5 6Quick Draw 7 8 9Improved TWF 10 11 12Craven(ITWF) 13 14 15(Staggering Strike) 16 17 18???(Special Ability) 19 20 Giveing up two rogue special abilities for feats ... limits you a little more. As for ending feats ... you can fit alot of cool stuff in there ... i haven't decided what i would put in there yet ... or choose to take two feats later and keep special abilities[/QUOTE] something like that cuz then rogue would be 2 levels lower so where you would normal get one for a rogue you add two levels to it and you only get 3 ... Plz if i am wrong tell me ... i am fairly new to building characters and this is still .. besides doesn't look like it adds up to me right now ethier lol also note this is not a human
GhostStepper 12-01-06, 10:10 PM	Theres no need for Improved Buckler Defense when Animated shields arent that expensive.
Melil13 12-01-06, 10:13 PM	Yea but i don't know about animated shields .... so i took Improved Buckler defense ... stick with giving up a feat ... as you can see with this build i really don't need the extra feat ... actually i still have an extra feat ... and if i go human ... well then i could fit a whole feat tree in lol .. this one i made is a Tiefling ... so add a +1 level adjustment on there ... :( seeing as the game is going till epic i didn't care so much. besides ... Bucklers are in didn't you hear?
Daeger 12-01-06, 10:14 PM	Skip the buckler and take Darkstalker. Awesome feat for any rogue.
Melil13 12-01-06, 10:16 PM	Skip the buckler and take Darkstalker. Awesome feat for any rogue. Er ... again extra feat ... and besides whats an animated shield going to do in an anti magic field ... my dm loves those ... by the way what book is DarkStalker?
Daeger 12-01-06, 10:19 PM	Lords of Madness. Sneak past those baddies with blindsight, tremorsense, and other such things.
GhostStepper 12-01-06, 10:19 PM	Er ... again extra feat ... and besides whats an animated shield going to do in an anti magic field ... my dm loves those ... by the way what book is DarkStalker? Lords of Madness. Its must have for high level stealth characters. EDIT: i was beat to the punch
Melil13 12-01-06, 10:27 PM	... yea ... we don't sneak much we have two paladins who kind of run blindly into ... everything. lol they ran threw the treasure chamber to the next room because he felt a great evil that way .... screaming "EVIL!!" i have a flanking buddy ( a monk) .. that is how i SA and i plan on getting that 16-18k ring that allows me to crit and SA ... just about everything
Daeger 12-01-06, 10:28 PM	Personally, I've always found assassin to be one of the best rogue classes there is, and I constantly advise GM's to allow it for non-evil alignments. It's a very nice tradeoff and lets rogue characters focus more on their sneak attacking rather than their broad range of skills. It is sad that the Adaptive Flanker trick doesn't work, but that's the reality of the situation. It's at a disadvantage in both CustServ rulings as well as Rules As Written, not to mention GM's don't exactly look upon free-sneakattacks-forever with a friendly eye. That's why things like the Assassin's ability to use greater invisibility is a very lovely, lovely thing, not to mention all those other spells that greatly enhance their ability to screw up their opponents. And we can't forget death attack either, which does wonders when you need to take out mages with a preemptive strike.
Melil13 12-01-06, 10:31 PM	well since you had brought it up ... just as i have been posting today i have been thinking up a human or tielfing assassin ... 10 assassin 2 fighter and as many rogue to fill in ... :) maybe when i make it i will post about it.
GhostStepper 12-01-06, 10:46 PM	Im not a big fan of the assassin. Youve got to wait a few rounds before your death attack...meanwhile the rest of your party could have easily annihilated the target. Even when you do pull it off lots of big bads are immune to it or have abilities that make it impossible to set up (maybe its just my DMs). And improved invisibility comes a bit late. At that point there are plenty of creatures and casters with true seeing or blightsight or tremorsense, etc...
Daeger 12-01-06, 10:50 PM	Im not a big fan of the assassin. Youve got to wait a few rounds before your death attack...meanwhile the rest of your party could have easily annihilated the target. Even when you do pull it off lots of big bads are immune to it or have abilities that make it impossible to set up (maybe its just my DMs). And improved invisibility comes a bit late. At that point there are plenty of creatures and casters with true seeing or blightsight or tremorsense, etc... Death attack sounds like it'd be perfect with penetrating strike, though the flanking-exclusive nature of it would be a problem. There are abilities that'll let you set up a flanker fast and easy, however. I believe one of them is a spell assassins get.. and there's a more basic one in Tome of Battle called Distracting Ember. Though, it might STILL not work on most things immune to critical hits because a lot are immune to fortitude saves unless it affects objects, to my knowledge.
GhostStepper 12-01-06, 11:33 PM	Instead of the assassin's death attack, i prefer sneaking up on an opponent (ala Darkstalker) and use Sudden Leap to get into melee range as a swift action before unleashing a full attack while they are flat-footed. If they are not flat footed and im next to them, Distracting Ember provides a flank as a swift action and if my buddies are flanking then Island of Blades insures we are flanking. Even if the self-flankng trick doesnt end up working, there are alternatives. The ninja build im running now will be able to dish out some damage at 20th level as well. Not Stormguard Warrior or Frenzied Berserker damage mind you, but there is no need for too much melee overkill. She'll have 8 attacks each round doing 1d4+6+20+12d6 (+1d6+11 fire) for a total average of 688 a round against something not immune to fire or crits if everything hits, 572 against fire immune creatures (or when i dont use Burning Blade) and 324 against things immune to fire and crits (Due to Penetrating Strike). This is all considering that the only magic items im using are 2 +1 speed daggers. Im getting dex to damage through Shadow Blade and extra damage through Craven as well getting Dex, Int, and Wis to AC through levels in Invisible Blade and Swordsage. I have Distracting Ember to get flanking when i need it (and the Island of Blades stance doesnt hurt). If i can get next to it, i can kill it if its an average CR 20 creature (maybe not a tarrasuqe, lol). Hopefully i can get some decent magic items to add to this character as well.
vylikas 12-02-06, 12:47 AM	I'm surprised to see Adaptive Flanker in use again. There was a thread about this in the past and the final conclusion, according to both RAW and Customer Service was that you still need an ally. Here's the question I submitted. As I recall, after this, this spurred a lot of people to send in their own customer service question asking for a clarification, and this was indeed the final result. Oh crap! I had never seen those CustServ rulings, only the ones before them. Well then the whole build just falls apart X_X Isn't there some sort of listing of all of CustServ's rulings? Had that existed it would have saved me a whole lot of time working on this stupid thing ><
GhostStepper 12-02-06, 01:52 AM	Oh crap! I had never seen those CustServ rulings, only the ones before them. Well then the whole build just falls apart X_X Isn't there some sort of listing of all of CustServ's rulings? Had that existed it would have saved me a whole lot of time working on this stupid thing >< No worries, even if the trick doesnt work you can stick Distracting Ember for an autoflank. Then all you need to do is kill them in one round.
vylikas 12-02-06, 02:26 AM	You can't give up a class feature that you don't have. You can't give up trap sense for penetrating strike if you don't have/won't get trap sense. Bye-Bye SA's vs. immune creatures! Easily fixed. Change race to human, take weapon finesse as human bonus feat, trade in a level of swash and a level of guild thief for two levels of rogue, which gives you +1 trap sense, just enough to make the requirement. You don't lose any SA dice, you stay at the same BAB, and you get evasion. I'm not sure why I didn't do that before. I remember during one of the countless edits to the first post I had the race as human... I must have forgotten to add the human bonus feat or something. Anyways, I changed it to any race because I felt like if anyone wanted to use a playable build, it should be any race so that they could add their own flavor text. No worries, even if the trick doesnt work you can stick Distracting Ember for an autoflank. Then all you need to do is kill them in one round. Hm... Desert Ember is a first level desert wind technique... Maneuvers recharge every round. If those are the only maneuvers you use then in conjunction with Island of Blades... as long as you get enough damage the build should still be pretty deadly (at least in encounters which can be resolved in three rounds). The desert ember basically acts just like adaptable flanker, only with limited uses per encounter... so the multiple enemy flanking tricks still work... just make sure you can crank the damage so you take out everything in less than X # of rounds. Plus, roleplaying wise, the use of a small fire elemental to distract enemies goes in line with the whole "Lightbringer" concept of the Penetrating Strike Rogue Class feature from EtCR. Seems like a massive reworking is in order! Thanks GhostStepper! I think though, that we should work on the new Desert Ember/Island of Blades build together, since you provided me with the idea. Actually, it's probably your baby now, since you've done so much work on it. Maybe you could start a new thread, since you've already got a basic build sketched out? I guess this is just the way of CharOp, or pretty much anything in life: you're never going to get it on your first try :P
Daeger 12-02-06, 10:19 AM	The big problem is Distracting Ember takes a swift action to use, only lasts until the end of your turn, and has to be renewed after that. It takes an action to renew your maneuver, depending on what you take. Swordsage is the only one that has access to Desert Wind, but simply getting the desert wind magic item (Desert Wind Cloak) for 3,000 gp fixes that, so you can do it for any class. Still, no class will allow you to do it every round, which is an issue. There is a much more efficient flanker buddy, however, and the assassin gets the spell. It's called Phantom Foe, and is a second level spell. However, the spell requires a somatic component and a focus, so you better make it your first action before drawing weapons. It's a standard action to use, lasts 1 round/level. There IS a will save involved, but luckily it's disbelief. A Desert Wind Cloak would definitely be an excellent investment to an assassin who wants to death attack someone immune to critical hits who aren't immune to fortitude saves. He'd have to take it as a typeless maneuver, meaning only once per encounter, period, but that's all he'd need it for - the death attack. Sorry if my assassin talk is sounding like a broken record, but I love the class. It's easily the most powerful core prestige class (Except for perhaps the archmage - and only perhaps.) and due to its access to spells, gets stronger with supplements that add spells to the class - many of them accessible through the use of wands. Many ridicule death attack for taking valuable time, but if the party is competent it really shouldn't be too hard to pull off if you're the offense. You're the rogue, therefore, you're the scout. It's helpful to have some way of remote communication with the party so you can plan an ambush. It sure as hell helps that your first strike will single handedly kill the low-Fort leader mage.
GhostStepper 12-02-06, 11:40 AM	Thats why i mentioned that you pretty much have to kill them in the first round (unless you have someone to flank with). Since, as a swordsage, youd need to spend a full-round to get it back. Of course, if you get the drop on them and have a high enough inititative check you can probably get a full round attack after the surprise round and initiate Disracting Ember the second round though this all hinges on your inititative. Ultimately, i think that optimizing crazy sneak attack damage is more efficient than death attack since, with Penetrating Strike, you can overcome things that are immune to Fort saves and with 10 levels of Invisible Blade you can get the Uncanny Dodgers (sounds like a baseball team of mutant superheroes. lol) I like to use atleast a few levels of the Ninja from the Rokugan setting. It has full BAB progression, full Sneak Attack progressioin, as well as some other goodies. You can multiclass it with rogue, swordsage and invisible blade and wind up with BAB +18 and 12d6 sneak attack.
Daeger 12-02-06, 11:48 AM	Problem is, the 10-level invisible blade and Rokugan aren't WotC material, so it's more difficult to get GM's to accept them.
Phoenix00 12-02-06, 11:57 AM	First just wanting to point out that Invisible Blade is a 5 lvl prestige class not 10 you need to fix that with your post. Invisible Blade also has full BAB, thus you will have a BAB of at least 16 if you are playing fractional (My group always plays fractional BAB and Saves) I'm not sure if that build has enough feats... the main trick requires Vexing Flanker, Combat Reflexes and Adaptable Flanker alone. The build will also need Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus (Dagger) to meet the prerequisites of the Complete Warrior IB. That's already five, which is definitely not enough to fit in the entire TWF tree- and the extra attacks are where the sheer damage from the USA stems from. None of the classes give bonus feats, and a human only has seven... (I'm assuming you're using Human as a race or else there are going to be XP penalties) Mind calculating the damage potentials on that build? It'd be interesting to see if getting the Golem Strike, Vine Strike and Ghost Strike spells are worth the dip in damage. IMO not really because the original build can use the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft penetrating strike rogue class feature in order to deal half SA damage to SAimmune monsters... and since that build can already deal 300+ damage a round... still, at high levels, enemies are more often than not immune to SA, so it might be worth it. With flaws it is possible. Invisible Blade requires Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Weapon Focus (Dagger, Kukri, or Punching Dagger) For the Rogue 3/Sorc 1/Swordsage 1/Invisible Blade 5/Unseen Seer 10 Build Human 1 (Feat): Combat Reflexes 1 (BFeat): Two Weapon Fighting 1 (Flaw): Far Shot 1 (Flaw): Point Blank Shot 3: Weapon Focus (Requires 1 BAB, could take the fighter variant with sneak attack but then you lose 24 skill points) 6: Adaptable Flanker 9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting or Craven 12: Craven or ITWF 15: Robliar’s Gambit 18: Greater Two Weapon Fighting Note I don’t have Weapon Finesse and Shadowblade for the 20 lvl build. My original build was 15 levels (I only went to US 5 and then say do whatever you want with the remaining levels), you can easily put in 2 lvls of fighter for 2 more bonus feats instead of finishing US 6-10. Weapon Finese is a Fighter Bonus Feat, Shadowblade is not, but you can easily take one of the two weapon fighting feats as a bonus feat. I don’t feel like calculating the damage, you have 16 BAB at 20 with this build (or the US 8, fighter 2 build). You get 8 attacks at lvl 20 (4 BAB Attack+1 Haste+3 TWF) all 8 attacks will hit due to Wraithstrike and a decent Str or Dex (See that 1 lvl dip in Sorc was worth it ;) ) 8*(Damage Base+Sneak Attack+Craven+Str or Dex Bonus depends if you get Shadowblade in+ magical enchantments+any other source of outside damage such as magical weapon) ---- Of course I want to point out that if you aren’t planning to go epic (or no incantatrix ally) and thus no persistant Hunter’s Eye and Wraithstrike you might want to take 1 level of assassin instead of sorcerer. You won’t get Golemstrike innately with Asssassin like you do with sorcerer, but you can grab it with Advanced Learning and you can grab all the other spells I gave in post #30.
Daeger 12-02-06, 12:00 PM	Unseen Seer is.. pretty bad. It actually lowers your spellcasting level for everything except divination the farther you go. Horrible. And the 10-level invisible blade is sort of the 'director's cut' you might say.
Phoenix00 12-02-06, 12:04 PM	Note if you have access to "Penetrating Strike" from Castle of Ravenloft take it. You will probally do more damage with Wraitstrike getting all your attacks in and doing half damage on sneak attack, than using Golemstrike and all that. I don't have access to Return to Castle Ravenloft,thus have no clue what the pre reqs of it are, or what you have to trade off for it thus I don't utilize it. Regardless fiting in one lvl of Sorc with some Unseen Seer, or Assassin and Unseen Seer is easily worth it just for Wraithstrike.
Phoenix00 12-02-06, 12:12 PM	Unseen Seer is.. pretty bad. It actually lowers your spellcasting level for everything except divination the farther you go. Horrible. Pray tell me what do you need caster level for, with this use of Unseen Seer? All the spells you are using it for have no caster level components. Additionally all those spells I listed were buffs (even if they are 1 round) thus no SR. You are thinking too much like a caster and not like a rogue. Caster Lvl doesn't matter with these builds. If we are playing a full caster/arcane trickster I may agree with you about Unseen Seer, until one feat Practiced Spellcaster strips your arguements away from you. Oh Insightful Feint is also another good Complete Adventurer 1st lvl spell avaliable to Assassins and Wiz/Sorc will edit post number 30 to add it. +10 +10 Insight bonus on the next single Bluff check made to Feint, Swift Action will last until the next feint attempt. Will edit post 30 to add it, problem is we have several swift action spells but you can only use 1 of them at a time.
Daeger 12-02-06, 12:15 PM	Uhh, durations, especiall round/level is what I'm thinking about mostly. The class just doesn't progress in sneak attack fast enough to be worth the drop in BAB and sacrifices that have to be made (i.e. no TWF because of somatic components, no armor..)
Phoenix00 12-02-06, 12:23 PM	The only duration spell that you will be using that I can think of is Mage Armor. You can get your full arcane caster to cast that on you since you are a rogue, not a full arcane caster, you are still going to need a full arcane caster in your party and mage armor is touch. Same thing with Greater Magic Weapon. All the recommend duration spells of complete adventurer are a flat 1 round. Besides those spells you are going to be utilizing swift action spells, such as swift flight, and almost all of swift action spells are flat 1 round spells. Remember you are a rogue, not a caster, even though you have access to some magic. Think of yourself as a wimpy "half caster" such as assassin, paladin, ranger, hexblade, etc. Thus the 3 caster level lost by Unseen Seer is more or less not a problem.
Phoenix00 12-02-06, 01:06 PM	You are right about the Somatic Components, I forgot about that. Somatic Weaponry feat from Complete Mage will fix that problem. Is there a Weapon Enchantment Bonus that also does that? If I have to drop a feat, I would drop Robliar's Gambit and just move up the two weapon fighting feats
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 01:36 PM	You can "fix" the unseen seer with a simple application of practiced spell caster.
vylikas 12-02-06, 03:14 PM	First just wanting to point out that Invisible Blade is a 5 lvl prestige class not 10 you need to fix that with your post. Invisible Blade also has full BAB, thus you will have a BAB of at least 16 if you are playing fractional (My group always plays fractional BAB and Saves) http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_invisible_blade.htm That is the original prestige class that the creator made (it makes so much more sense) that Wizards horribly mangled up. I dedicated an entire paragraph at the top of the original post explaining that I'm using that version of the IB. BTW: the non-raw 10-level IB is not the only way for a sneak attacker to bypass Uncanny Dodgers. 21st level epic feat "Sneak Attack of Opportunity" works as well... so I wouldn't focus on that part of the problem when constructing the build. I'd say focus more on how to get consistent flanking. @Daeger: the problem with Phantom Foe is that it is a spell, which means by the end of the day it will eventually run out. Maneuvers are usuable multiple times every encounter. Since one level of swordsage is pretty much integral to any further builds due to the usefulness of Island of Blades, why not take advantage of the several 1st level maneuvers that come with it? With flaws it is possible. Invisible Blade requires Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Weapon Focus (Dagger, Kukri, or Punching Dagger) Phoenix00, if you're talking about the CW IB, it was errata'd so that it doesn't need far shot or point blank shot. BTW you can get rid of the Adaptable Flanker feat in your build now since for a cost of three feats it's not worth it anymore (since it doesn't let you flank by yourself). I think CW IB is still usuable, since the swift action feint means that when our sneak attacker is moving around (and thus unable to use his full attack because he is limited to a standard action after a move) it would be a terrible waste of a desert ember just to create a flank for a single attack. This use of the Unseen Seer is pretty interesting... I wasn't working towards a gish rogue, but wraithstrike really is an extremely good spell...