Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wizu 10-06-05, 12:20 PM	Okay, sooo... even as I dislike the general idea, it is sickeningly sweet. The point is to make ecl 4 character with core rules to do 18d6 damage by itself in one round. And when I say by itself, I really mean by itself... Lets take Olaf for example! Olaf, the norwegian rolling sailor (of DHOOM!) half orc barbarian 1/sorc 3 str 16 dex 10 con 15 int 6 wis 12 cha 12 using elite array, stat pumb at cha weight and height maxed feats taken run, toughness spells cast jump, expeditious retreat, enlarge Scenario should go like this if my math is correct and nothing is horrendously wrong (suggestions to improve it or make it lower level much appreciated, if you can pull it of at ecl 2 I'll give you cookie)... DM: "Okay, everyone roll spot check, aim for 30." Players: None succeeds. DM: "Well, your funeral... as you walk along the scorched road you notice an imminent roar somewhere in the distance between the savage trees about 500 feet north. Bunnies around you all spring out from their rabbit holes and run to the opposite direction, they delayed till this happened. In a blink of an eye you start to see the thing keeping that noice move towards you admist those trees, and can make out a rolling ball. It takes but few anime flashes before its right before of you and you notice its horrendously bloated norwegian viking amassing so much fat that its only movement method is to roll around. Its about 13 feet tall and consist of fat, loose clothes trying to keep it all from coming out and stubby hands and feet. Out of his head you notice a viking helmet with one spared and one broken horn still standing. Now, as it is 10 feet from your party of four thats in box like squares, you notice its legs touch the ground simultaneously as it rages *Rolls jump and gets enough.* and pounce upto the sky. Eerie moment passes as every sound of the wild is quelched, you can see nothing else but the floating mass trying to go over you without crushing anyone... or is it? Everyone roll reflex save 15 against TPK!" Players: Everyone fails! DM: "Ookay so thats... 18d6 damage by falling objects rule." Rolls damage. Players. *Grumble!* DM: *Insert very painful and violent scenario here.* "... and after much splatter, Olaf continues his way to the next tavern!" Players: *Insert very painful and violent scenario here.* ... I rest my case! Edit: I have nothing personal against norwegian vikings, infact one of them is my quite close internet friend, but sorries for any unintended stabs! Love ya all!
Encard 10-06-05, 12:31 PM	A couple things... First off, can you give some numbers here? Specifically, what're all of this guy's jump check modifiers? Assuming 1d6 per 10 ft. fallen, that's a minimum jump check result of 72... A bit lower if you're counting the character as an improvised weapon, but still rather high. Also, you do realize that your viking would take just as much falling damage as anyone below him?
Wizard Random 10-06-05, 12:46 PM	It has already been done, it was a half-orc cleric with the strength doman, weighted down with tons of stuff and at the max weight, the only spell he cast was enlarge person and he did 20d6 falling dmg, with no save. All at lvl 1 He also used 25 point buy, to have a str 18 And since he only had fallen 10ft he only took 1d6 falling dmg, unless he made a jump check to negate....which he could.
Wizard Random 10-06-05, 12:47 PM	A couple things... First off, can you give some numbers here? Specifically, what're all of this guy's jump check modifiers? Assuming 1d6 per 10 ft. fallen, that's a minimum jump check result of 72... A bit lower if you're counting the character as an improvised weapon, but still rather high. Also, you do realize that your viking would take just as much falling damage as anyone below him? He only needs to be 10 feet in the air, to trigger falling dmg, and it is based on weight not only hieght fallen. CW talks about it,
Wizu 10-06-05, 12:49 PM	Ehm sorries was kinda off there. Yeah, hes not going to jump that high, he only wants to jump 20 feet, the damage comes from him himself falling that 20 feet, for every 200 lbs object does 1d6 damage per 10 feet fallen. His jump check is about 5 (str) 7 (ranks) 20 (speed) 10 (spell) and he aims for dc 56, I'd say thats reliable change of success. He weights half orc maximum of 438 which is six times thanks to enlarge going into... 2628, square it with 200 and you get 13 point something, double it twice and thats waytoomuch. Erm... that does the max of 20d6. Okay, so I was a bit offbase, I kinda expected it, and it was 20 feet not 10 feet to be dropped. Lessee... upping the int makes me have more skillpoints, changing one level to something with tumble makes me get +2 to jump... think I can even make autosuccess at the jump check. Gimme a moment!
Wizu 10-06-05, 12:53 PM	Erm, you dont even get a ref save? Wicked man, wicked! So, make it half orc barbarian 1/cleric 1 with strenght domain and family "Mess with the family, and the family goes medieval on yo!" Still need run feat. I'm so doing this in the next LG game!!! Edit: Meh, need expeditious retreat for more reliable change of success... celerity domain would grant it, then again its not core.
RadicalTaoist 10-06-05, 12:55 PM	Nononononono....this was the argument used by people to argue the Hulking Hurler capped out at 20d6. Nuh-uh. The falling damage table referred to in the DMG is the damage the falling object itself takes. Not the things under it. Your Olaf is committing suicide. On top, he's turning himself into an Improvised Weapon, which has rules in CW. Look up his weight there and see how many d6es it turns into.
Wizard Random 10-06-05, 01:03 PM	Nononononono....this was the argument used by people to argue the Hulking Hurler capped out at 20d6. Nuh-uh. The falling damage table referred to in the DMG is the damage the falling object itself takes. Not the things under it. Your Olaf is committing suicide. On top, he's turning himself into an Improvised Weapon, which has rules in CW. Look up his weight there and see how many d6es it turns into. ugh i BELive your wrong, I am not at my comp or i would post a link( i have some saved) however the Thing falling doesnt take the dmg. Also its a Soft cAP, if it was say a ...boulder then it would do more. Look in the Back of the Complete Warrior for complete info. Also he doesnt need to be Barbarian 1/ Cleric 1 Its just a Half-orc Cleric 1 At lvl 1 you can do 20d6.
Wizard Random 10-06-05, 01:04 PM	Celerity IS core, Complete Divine and BoEd, both have the New and revised Celerity domain.
Wizu 10-06-05, 01:04 PM	5d6+1d6 per every 200 lb. That makes it... 2628-400/200=11,14+5=16,14d6 16d6 of damage, given that he does a running jump and succeeds at dc 36, succeeding at dc 15 makes 1d6 of the damage ignored he himself takes from dropping, buuut... does it really do 13d6 damage to Olaf? Seriously! He just jumps feeble 10 feet! Edit: Fine, Olaf just wears fullplate with spikes! Tell me thats not soft. And barbarian is there for the +4 speed bonus to running jump... 0.o
Wizard Random 10-06-05, 01:07 PM	5d6+1d6 per every 200 lb. That makes it... 2628-400/200=11,14+5=16,14d6 16d6 of damage, given that he does a running jump and succeeds at dc 36, succeeding at dc 15 makes 1d6 of the damage ignored he himself takes from dropping, buuut... does it really do 13d6 damage to Olaf? Seriously! He just jumps feeble 10 feet! What the Half-Orc did was have a 18str using 25 point, got +2 racial for a 20 and then popped his Strength domain for another +1 Giving him a str of 21 He bought like Chainshirt with spikes, a large steel with spikes, like a month worth of trail rations(they f-ing weigh a pound) and other such things maxing out his max weight. Then cast enlarge person which of course like times his weight by 8, he was sitting like at either 3600 pounds or 4k+
RadicalTaoist 10-06-05, 01:59 PM	ugh i BELive your wrong, I am not at my comp or i would post a link( i have some saved) however the Thing falling doesnt take the dmg. That's wonderful. All my characters can fall off of thousand-feet-high airships and not be hurt at all.
Wizard Random 10-06-05, 02:13 PM	That's wonderful. All my characters can fall off of thousand-feet-high airships and not be hurt at all. (cough) twisting words around (cough) When used in this manner, to deal damage, you take falling damage = to 1d6 per 10 ft fallen. Since you only need to fall 10ft to TRIGGER falling dmg (based on weight) then you would take only 1d6 dmg. Not the damage you are dishing out. Agian a Jump check of like 15 negates the first 10 feet of falling damage. I did not mean No creature takes falling damage, which of course we all know that they do. However a Object doesnt take the damage.....at least not according to the DMG....
Skulan 10-06-05, 02:27 PM	Yup yup. A falling character takes 1d6 damage per ten feet they fall. A person hit by a falling object takes an amount of damage based on the weight of the falling object. That's the deal here, RT. The 16d6 or so that is done to the poor saps underneath is based on the obscene weight of the guy, not the minimal height he falls from. The damage he himself takes is based on the falling distance, which will be 10 or 20 feet. -Skulan
TonyStark 10-06-05, 11:32 PM	how about wearing a spiked breastplate with the 'anti-impact' (i think that is what it is called - so even if your dm wanted to damage you for the fat hitting the turf, you would only take half :plotting:
Ditta 10-06-05, 11:53 PM	I wouldn't mind taking that damage, the image of a fat dude killing ya by just jumping 20 ft is pretty funny. Just for the fun of it, get the stout trait, just for kicks. Perhaps you should make him have some kind of specialised armor which he named himself.... Armadillo armor? Un-chained Spiked Ball of DOOM? Spiky squishy death? Come to think of it its like the atomic bomb - Fat Man. :headexplo
Zathyr 10-07-05, 12:05 AM	Celerity IS core, Complete Divine and BoEd, both have the New and revised Celerity domain. This must be some new definition of "core" with which I am unfamiliar. I always understood it to mean PHB, DMG, MM, and possibly XPH. :? And curse you all. Now my head is looping the immortal words of Bill Cosby: "Hey hey hey!"
AlienFromBeyond 10-07-05, 01:17 AM	You are the one that is correct. Core is just the PHB, MM, and DMG. Some people mistakenly put in the Complete series as well, but technically they are not Core.
Gloverboy 10-07-05, 01:42 AM	ooh ooh! Add in Willing deformity/deformity (Obese)! Doesnt that double your weight? HEY HEY HEY!!!! (roflmao!!!)
Wizu 10-07-05, 05:28 AM	Well, ofcourse its possible outside core turn this guy into first level killing machine... then again, it takes out a part of our fun! Whats even better, we've came you with a way for 1st level character using only core rulesets to do 20d6 as a fullround action. No save, no spellresistance. Yeeesh... life feels good!
filwinn 10-07-05, 10:03 AM	I have to say I absolutely love the idea of the obese half-orc. Stepping out of the bounds of core I'm wondering. In the Realms, the half-orcs comes from Rashemi and is a barbarian of the snow tiger's lodge or so ?
RadicalTaoist 10-07-05, 10:19 AM	Wait a second...if you can actually get your weight that high, then we wouldn't cap at 20d6. That's what makes the HH broken - there's no cap on improvised weapon damage. And WR's right - the Jump check negates the damage. Splendid. We've got the Self-Hurler.
Chaotica Maxima 10-07-05, 10:26 AM	Splendid. We've got the Self-Hurler. Self-Hurler? Nice name ;) I'm also very tempted to use this when I DM again. I'll just have to make sure no pointy object are present to be thrown at me n.n;
Wizard Random 10-07-05, 11:02 AM	I wish i could post the link for you, but my comp got trashed, so you will just have to look it up. i belive the thread was called 20d6 damage at lvl 1!!! It refins and explains why it caps at 20d6, and a couple of other useful things. But bascially what we have all discussed here is how it breaks down. Also on a side note, i have (and always will) consider Core anything that is not campgian speficic or 3rd party. Anything "standered Dnd" is core to me. The reason why the books say Core on them, is before its ALL you need to play the game. PHB DMG and the MM.
ZerodotJander 10-07-05, 11:47 AM	I remember something about 3rd level druids casting Summon Nature's Ally 2 to get a Hippogriff, and using the variant summoning rules to get a specific hippogriff that had Hover instead of Flyby Attack. When it appeared, it would use a move action to hover, then a second move action to fly straight up 50', then next round it would fly up another 50' and then move to over the opponent, drop as a free action, and land on the opponent. Since hippogriffs weigh 1000 lbs, it was a good amount of damage.
Skulan 10-07-05, 12:03 PM	Damage from a falling object is uncapped. Thusly: For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage). That's SRD, Falling Objects. The 20d6 cap is on the damage from falling distance. There is no cap on damage from weight. The moon falling on you definitely does more damage than a cow falling on you; they just both add only 20d6 to their weight damage if they both fall from orbit. -Skulan
El_Machinae 10-07-05, 02:11 PM	What specific rules are you using to hit your opponents? In addition, the party would get AoOs as the orc entered the 'landing' square (assuming they threaten the square above them). Couldn't they just "avoid" the bullrush?
Fwib 10-07-05, 02:11 PM	Has anyone suggested that this might not work, since Characters are Creatures, not Objects?
Wizard Random 10-07-05, 02:18 PM	What specific rules are you using to hit your opponents? In addition, the party would get AoOs as the orc entered the 'landing' square (assuming they threaten the square above them). Couldn't they just "avoid" the bullrush? Object falling damage based on weight Although you could be a improvised wepaon and have no damage cap They dont get AoO's unless they threaten 10 feet or more. Because he in entering their threatned square not leaving it. Its not a bullrush Atempt, and they cannot avoid it unless they have some sort of immidiete action that could save them.
Wizard Random 10-07-05, 02:19 PM	Has anyone suggested that this might not work, since Characters are Creatures, not Objects? It doesnt matter if they are ceatures or not, you can not get around the fact that something thats is VERY heavy is landing on them. But all damage calculations are based from the rules from the complete warrior, although if you wanna say he is a Improved weapon(whihc you can do) then he wouldnt cap at 20d6.(but then you have to make a attack roll i belive...dont quote me on that)
Skulan 10-07-05, 02:21 PM	Easy. Start with a Warforged. That's a bit closer to an object, and likely heavier, to boot. -Skulan
Fwib 10-07-05, 02:22 PM	It doesnt matter if they are ceatures or not, you can not get around the fact that something thats is VERY heavy is landing on them. But all damage calculations are based from the rules from the complete warrior, although if you wanna say he is a Improved weapon(whihc you can do) then he wouldnt cap at 20d6.(but then you have to make a attack roll i belive...dont quote me on that)It does matter. Creatures (in the glossary, added link to my post above) are defined as 'not an object' so you can't use the 'object falling damage'
Skulan 10-07-05, 02:28 PM	Of course, that brings us into the realm of animated objects and constructs in general. Constructs are immune to fort-save effects unless they specifically affect objects, so a case could be made, there. But you're right, Fwib, in general it's probably closer to a bizarre Overrun attack. Still, knocking all those people prone is also hilarious. -Skulan
El_Machinae 10-07-05, 02:33 PM	First off, they do get AoOs (assuming they threaten the square above them). The orc leaves the square above them, and enters their square (in order to hit them) - this generates an AoO. But my question is: how do you know that the orc 'hit' the target? All that we know is that he hit the square that the target was it (by jumping into it). I'm basically looking for the rules mechanism.
Xeraph 10-07-05, 02:55 PM	Im sure i read something about jumping and such on some FAQ awhile ago. I cant find it now, i just tried, but here is how i understood it. When you jump and land, no matter how high you have jumped, you dont take any damage, because its a jump action. Let me try to explain what i read. Bob jumps 30 ft up and therefore moves 30ft down afterwards. This is all part of a jump action, and he therefor takes no damage. Lets say Bob made that same jump 30 ft up, but did it out from a cliff 30' high. This would ney him a nice downward movement of 60 ft, BUT only the last 30 ft would be actually falling movement. Point is, if you move and "fall" you take damage yourself just like your enemies. (ofcourse i cant seem to find any RAW backing this up) Now, with the whole weighing over 4000lbs while jump/falling is just plain.... beautiful. Reminds me of Disneys Fantasia with the dancing hippos. Nice catch.
Seeker of Truth 10-07-05, 03:07 PM	There are all kinds of ways that this trick is not legal. 1) There are only a few ways for a hostile to enter an enemy's square and "jumping" is not one of them. You might be able to jump as part of a bull rush, or overrun ... but just like being able to run far enough to enter an enemies square doesn't autmatically let you enter it ... neither does being able to jump far enough. 2) Character are never objects unless they are dead. 3) A chacter in a square is not statically there ... he is not automatically hit by an object that falls into that square unless there is a rule that says so. 4) Any appeals to "common sence" although often problematic in any case in DnD in this case are completely spurious ... what about comon sence says that a belley flop would be an effective attack technique. The whole notion defies common sence so appeals like "It's stupid that the rules don't let me fall into an enemy square" while they might fly in some campeigns in other contexts, don't hold water here because the context assumes that common sense has been thrown out.
Marlowe_Faustus 10-07-05, 03:13 PM	Anyone consider doing this with an Adamtine bondied Warforged?
Wizard Random 10-07-05, 03:16 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=460983 Here ya go this explains everything
Fwib 10-07-05, 06:01 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=460983 Here ya go this explains everythingHas the same problems as this thread :( the damage is for objects, not for creatures, and there is no actual mechanic for the attack.
Gloverboy 10-07-05, 07:37 PM	why should it be only for objects? Wouldnt it hurt just as much to have a 2 ton orc fall on you as a 2 ton boulder? The only difference is we dont bother to see if the boulder gets hurt, but the orc might take some damage himself. This is when we throw in the jump checks, or perhaps a level or two in Monk. I think its too hilarious not to work.
Seeker of Truth 10-07-05, 07:49 PM	why should it be only for objects? Wouldnt it hurt just as much to have a 2 ton orc fall on you as a 2 ton boulder? The only difference is we dont bother to see if the boulder gets hurt, but the orc might take some damage himself. This is when we throw in the jump checks, or perhaps a level or two in Monk. I think its too hilarious not to work. Like I said above ... appeals to common sence "Why shouldn't it be the same as an object" lose some luster when you are starting from a point of rediculousness. You are inventing rules that allow you to make an attack that automatically hits and allows for no defence, and the rules just don't support that. If you want to make a character that jumps on people, and you aren't happy with a rule set that won't let you (although I guess from that other thread that there is a feat you can get if you are 3 sizes bigger than your target that does 4d8) then adapt rules that make sense. Treat it as a bull rush into the ground ... dont use a rule that was never intended or designed to be used as an attack.
Gloverboy 10-10-05, 12:42 PM	Like I said above ... appeals to common sence "Why shouldn't it be the same as an object" lose some luster when you are starting from a point of rediculousness. You are inventing rules that allow you to make an attack that automatically hits and allows for no defence, and the rules just don't support that. If you want to make a character that jumps on people, and you aren't happy with a rule set that won't let you (although I guess from that other thread that there is a feat you can get if you are 3 sizes bigger than your target that does 4d8) then adapt rules that make sense. Treat it as a bull rush into the ground ... dont use a rule that was never intended or designed to be used as an attack. This is where a DM has to house rule. I dont think an PC's are gonna invest so much of their character into tactics like this, so Usually, it's the PC's that are gonna be squised under Fat Albert, not vice versa. In which case you can bet the house-ruling will favor the NPC attacker, or at least allow the attack to function well. I'd say there's not much can be done to stop the rush, as the guys gotta land somewhere. I'd allow for an AoO, and if there was a tall and strong PC, maybe a grapple check (with penalties) to catch the pudgy bastich and toss him aside. Sound reasonable yet?
oxybe 10-10-05, 01:22 PM	...to catch the pudgy bastich and toss him aside. wait... you mean you actually want to try to catch a 2 ton fatty that dropped from 10-20 feet in the sky??? unless you have insane strenght, i would probly say your arms + legs give out...
Gloverboy 10-10-05, 08:27 PM	wait... you mean you actually want to try to catch a 2 ton fatty that dropped from 10-20 feet in the sky??? unless you have insane strenght, i would probly say your arms + legs give out... good point. I'm also reminded of Arrested development, when Martin Short plays a bodybuilder, who for his 70th birthday, goes on TV, and attempts to lift "5 pounds for every year of my life" CRUNCH "TOO MUCH!!" oK, well, how about a reflex save, meaning such a lardarse would be best served by sneaking up behind the party and leaping on them. You'd be surprised how nimble fat people can be. Spot and listen checks could save the party. And maybe, if the entire party is about to be killed by a half-orc roughly the size of Tokyo, a last moment spot check to notice the growing shadow you are standing in as Cellulite doom plummets towards you. I'd allow for an AoO, but who in their right mind would see such a monstrosity and attack instead of running?
Periboo 10-11-05, 11:19 AM	Not sure if there is a 3.5 ruling, but the Crush and Fling Enemy feats from Savage Species pretty much kills this. Crush (throw yourself onto someone) is damage based on size plus 1.5 STR bonus, for as many enemies as can fit under your body. Save is Reflex (DC10 + STR mod + size modifier for grapple check). No attack roll needed. Fling Enemy (Be thrown onto someone) is normal falling damage vertically, half falling damage in distance if horizonal, and applies to both the target and the flung enemy. Attack roll is at -4. Everything else I've seen deals with real weapons and not squishy people.
Gloverboy 10-11-05, 01:31 PM	Not sure if there is a 3.5 ruling, but the Crush and Fling Enemy feats from Savage Species pretty much kills this. Crush (throw yourself onto someone) is damage based on size plus 1.5 STR bonus, for as many enemies as can fit under your body. Save is Reflex (DC10 + STR mod + size modifier for grapple check). No attack roll needed. Fling Enemy (Be thrown onto someone) is normal falling damage vertically, half falling damage in distance if horizonal, and applies to both the target and the flung enemy. Attack roll is at -4. Everything else I've seen deals with real weapons and not squishy people. Is this usual? Creating rules to remove the symptom but not the cause of the broken-ness? I mean, why should I eat a feat to do far less damage, when by simple core rules, I can do much more damage with a spell and simple application of gravity? And why base damage entirely upon size? Different materials weigh more or less, even at the same size. A cubic foot of gold is gonna weigh more, and should do more damage if it lands on you, than a cubic foot of ice. It so follows that a if an expanded Half Orc weighs more than a giant, even at the same size, then The Half orcs arse does more damage. edit- and whats with all the nay-saying? Can't we laugh at ourselves for debating the viability of using your butt as a weapon of epic might?
Seeker of Truth 10-11-05, 01:50 PM	when by simple core rules, I can do much more damage ... But that's the whole point. The core rules don't let you do more damage. The house rules you are inventing allow you to do much more damage.
Nazzareth 10-11-05, 05:57 PM	Don't forget to add in the raptor school feat and use the eagles swoop ability to jump while you charge your foe, this way you don't land prone. If you have a spiked shield you could combine the shield charge and shield slam feats to also knock down and daze your target, both feats kick in when you charge a foe and shield bash them, then throw in the battle jump feat which doubles damge if you land on a foe from a height of greater than 10ft. finally add in the pounce ability add you can finish off the rest of your attacks.
Zathyr 10-11-05, 06:18 PM	So, how fat do you need to be to consider yourself a splash weapon? ;)
Gloverboy 10-12-05, 12:24 AM	But that's the whole point. The core rules don't let you do more damage. The house rules you are inventing allow you to do much more damage. Actually, I thought the House Rules I was making up were to give the poor little PCs a chance, and it was core rules and the laws of physics that allowed such an unbalanced attack in the first place. Look at Wizard_Random's earlier posts. Damage from falling objects (based on weight, not distance) is basic and core. Its a couple feeble feats from splatbooks that claim to break the build. The whole point is, if they are gonna cover up such a problem, it'll have to be through errata correcting the original loophole, not feats which have the same attack effect, but very little damage. Not taking a feat doesnt mean I cant get really fat, and jump on your head.
Dragonsblud 10-12-05, 01:07 AM	How come no one has considered the damage he would take say if a member or two of the party had say a ranseur or longspear set on the ground or like my dwarf did a year ago ducked lower than his tower shield and braced it so the man hits the edge
incubus 10-12-05, 02:57 AM	Here's how it goes: The extremely large half orc jumps at his foe, and makes an unarmed strike with his strength bonus, and also provokes an AoO for not being armed. That's what normally happens when a creature attacks another creature without a weapon. If he's running fast, he probably gets a +2 to hit from charging. If you drop an object from a height onto someone, either a) You use the rules for throwing that thing as a weapon b) They get a low DC reflex save to not get hit by it And if you, as a DM, are just going to say "no, I decided to change the rules to allow an overweight half orc to do an AoE 18d6 attack at 1st level and kill the entire party", then frankly you're the worst DM I've ever heard of, and that includes at least one 6 year old. In short - this is "By DM fiat, I kill the party" and nothing more. There's no clever rules exploit here.
Skulan 10-12-05, 11:15 AM	If one holds strictly to the definition of "object" per the rules, incubus is right. However, I must give credit. As far as DM fiat deaths go, this is so much better than falling rocks. -Skulan
RadicalTaoist 10-12-05, 12:02 PM	lol, I just realized what a character with a longspear and the Stand Still feat could do with an AoO as the flying behemoth flew through his threatened area. The feat specifically states "must immediately halt as though he had used up his move actions for the round." Does that leave him suspended there in midair for 6 seconds?
Gloverboy 10-12-05, 12:37 PM	lol, I just realized what a character with a longspear and the Stand Still feat could do with an AoO as the flying behemoth flew through his threatened area. The feat specifically states "must immediately halt as though he had used up his move actions for the round." Does that leave him suspended there in midair for 6 seconds? Yes, yes it does. Hanging on the effing spear like a stuck pig, screaming in mortal agony as his 2 tons of weight drive his liver through an impossibly sharp spear tip. This sould also be a sign of fairness in the maeuver, that leaping willy nilly on top of PCs is not without its dangers. I dont think unarmed strike is the same thing as Bellyflop of immense doom, and the maneuver need not take into account how strong he is. It's not his muscles he's using, after all, except for the initial leap, and if you weigh 2 tons, some kind of negative to jump checks must be imposed, so I'td be advantageous for this orc to just waddle off a ledge. It's not by pure fiat, and if DMing, I would only use such a trick if the party needed to die. As in, they've been reading this friggin board to much, their characters can cast 9th levels spells at Char level 1, or something, and I figure dropping a fat orc on them is funner than dropping the Moon on them. Can we lighten up? Of course only a terrible DM would throw something like this at his party like it was nothing. The whole idea is, an orc could probably kill you by sitting on you. Could we laugh at it before we dissect it, at least?
Seeker of Truth 10-12-05, 01:36 PM	Actually, I thought the House Rules I was making up were to give the poor little PCs a chance, and it was core rules and the laws of physics that allowed such an unbalanced attack in the first place. Look at Wizard_Random's earlier posts. Damage from falling objects (based on weight, not distance) is basic and core. Its a couple feeble feats from splatbooks that claim to break the build. The whole point is, if they are gonna cover up such a problem, it'll have to be through errata correcting the original loophole, not feats which have the same attack effect, but very little damage. Not taking a feat doesnt mean I cant get really fat, and jump on your head. Falling objects is core ... but a character can never be an object. A character has only a very limited number of ways it can enter an enemy occupied square ... and simply "jumping" is not one of them. Even if a character could make an object fall on another there are no rules for seeing if the object 'hits'. You are resolving all of these issues with house rules.
cvazi 10-12-05, 02:01 PM	lol, I just realized what a character with a longspear and the Stand Still feat could do with an AoO as the flying behemoth flew through his threatened area. The feat specifically states "must immediately halt as though he had used up his move actions for the round." Does that leave him suspended there in midair for 6 seconds? Yikes! Standstill in aerial combat for anything that doesn't have good or better flight is EVIL! They automatically stall if they cannot travel thier move in one round- and then stall and fall up to 500'!
oxybe 10-12-05, 02:54 PM	ok, so the character is not an object, but his equipment is. and im pretty sure it's his armor that he's using to attack with, backed up by his bulk. sort of like when you swing your sword, backed up by your arm muscle. what i can understand is that the character is not attacking the enemy, he's attacking the square, the same way that a dropped object attacks the square the enemy is in. and yes, one could easily say that anything that is in a freefall is considered an object when you want to damage something, be it rock, halfling or cheezecake. and yes, there are rules for objects dropped on enemies. go take a look at heroes of battle (p.67-68), which has rules for dropping objects on a target: dropped objects have a range increment of 50ft. after 250ft its considered an indirect hit. (not quite sure what that means, the book is kinda vague, though i doubt that flubbo the orc will ever have a jump check of 250...) you have to hit an AC of 5 to hit the ground. it receives the normal -2 per range increment. it also gets a -4 to attacks because its an improvised weapon. the creature gets penalties depending on its maneuvrability: -2 average, -4 poor, -6 clumsy. if it misses it applies the same miss rules for a thrown weapon. (ok, now we're getting somewhere! the maneuvrability could be considered clumsy, but again, this is just existing rules that could be applied to this.) the damage is based on the chart on p.303 of DMG. a creature can avoid taking damage by succeeding a DC 15 reflex (ie. notice the object and jump out of the way). (well, damage and save to avoid damage) dive bombing is a better way to do this, if only because you get a +2 to the attack roll (and a -2 AC, just like a charge). range increment penalties start at the point of dropping, not the start of the dive. damage dealt depends on where you began your dive. if you begin diving at 400ft and let go at 200ft, you deal damage like a 400ft dive, but you only get the penalties of a 200ft attack. clumsy or poor flyers must give themselves some space or they crash (page 20 DMG) (this could be applicable since you do crash on the ground/enemy) this isnt RAW, but it has the gist of it. my comments are inbetween (bolded brackets) it is already apparent that there isn't any rules to govern a kamakazi bellyflop, so we have no choice but to house rule. the best way to figure out a house rule to govern this, um... unique combat technique, is to use an existing rule and modify it. and just because it's not in the rules, doesnt mean it can't happen (a similar thing actually happend to me during last year's Worldwide D&D day... we were fighting a swarm and just couldn't kill it, so the full plate dwarf got a boost from the barb and did a bellyflop on the swarm. he did 1d6 to the swarm and himself in the process) anyways, i think im going to ask cust serv to see if they can help out... who knows, maybe they will actually give out a decent answer!
Periboo 10-12-05, 03:01 PM	Even if a character could make an object fall on another there are no rules for seeing if the object 'hits'. Sure there is. If it's targeted at a single person - attack roll with modifiers. If it's targeted at an area - reflex save. That's fairly basic. The issue is if/when a player/creature becomes an object. Outside of, say, turning him to stone I don't believe he ever does. Otherwise you open up having people do disarm and sunder attempts on Bobo the Wizard whenever Chi-Chi the Titan has him grappled. Hey, he's being wielded in one hand, right? That makes Bob a weapon! Also, players/most monsters do not have a hardness, and again are therefor not objects. And finally, while the numbers on how much damage Chuckles the Really Fat Orc will do when dropped from great height are fun, they're also completely inaccurate. The reason I say that is you're equating weight from a very dense object, like a steel brick, and weight from a (forgive me) bag of mostly water. The reason I say this is important is that if you take a 100kg bag of liquid and drop it from 40m.. it's messy, but the pavement doesn't much care. If you do the same with a sharp pointy 100kg steel brick (you know, a weapon) the pavement is suddenly much more affected. The rules for object damage assume you're using something that would be considered a weapon, like... a rock. Not a gnome. A flung gnome would hurt your pride more than your body. A statue of a gnome, however.. ouch.
Gloverboy 10-12-05, 03:42 PM	Good points all. Debateable as it is, using armor to designate one's-self as an object, or other avenues of logic, I find myself at a loss here. Basically, I could go on, but I don't think I'd win, plus I'm reminded of the wisdom from the board quotes thread "Before posting think 'Does this make me a douche?' if the answer is yes, then dont post it" But please, to restore my faith in humanity, could somone laugh at the concept before its dropped? I really enjoy Wizu's original concept, and do plan to use it if I need to kill a PC.
Wizu 10-14-05, 03:45 AM	*Sniffles, hugs all the believers and wobbles off to the horizon.* *... and then returns for a quick insight of wisdom!* Edit: It is possible, by having quick draw (arguable) and a cursed item to make yourself like object when your... dex wis cha or int drop to zero. Cant make strenght zero, for then we wouldnt have the necessary power to jump, tho we could jump before putting the item on. Or a swift action self target spell that makes you lose X of ability score. Whatever is the case, one can make himself an object easy enough, tho not at level 1. Arguing is the salt of life, eh? >.<
Nazzareth 10-14-05, 05:18 AM	I really enjoy Wizu's original concept, and do plan to use it if I need to kill a PC. You could do something similar to kill a PC, I once had a dragon kill a PC by dropping a cow on them. His death is still talked about every once in a while five years later. Could do something like this build legally making use of the raptor school feat and various other charge and jump related feats like powerful charge, gtr powerful charge, rhinoceros tribe charge, battle jump, up the walls, mighty leaping and use armour spikes (or blades) as your weapon for the attack. This way you simulate a big splash style attack legally and still do a nice amount of damage, you also don't draw an AOO for entering a threatend square this way because armour spikes have 5ft reach. Throw in some other bullrush or overrun feats as well if you want to close and attack.
The Ultimate Dragongod 10-14-05, 08:52 AM	Have a Hulking Hurler who is a Goliath, get the Fling Ally feat, and have the ally be a really really fat man. Possibly a cohort that follows you around. His job is to be very fat.
oxybe 10-14-05, 10:15 AM	i can see it now: oh no, he's here! it's Grontar the Feirce! hide the stuffing before his chubby buddy waddles on over here or we're doomed! lol But please, to restore my faith in humanity, could somone laugh at the concept before its dropped? I really enjoy Wizu's original concept, and do plan to use it if I need to kill a PC. laugh at the concept? the title of the thread itself is funny, when taken into context. :D also, isn't a dwarven defender considered an object? heck, i've seen statues move more then them... i think the proper quote is: oh no! the dwarven defender is angry! let's briskly jog to escape! ~ forgot who originally said it is a golem considered an object? is an animate object considered an object? also, is a gnome considered an improvised weapon, or a large squishy sap?
Skulan 10-14-05, 11:36 AM	Edit: It is possible, by having quick draw (arguable) and a cursed item to make yourself like object when your... dex wis cha or int drop to zero. Cant make strenght zero, for then we wouldnt have the necessary power to jump, tho we could jump before putting the item on. Or a swift action self target spell that makes you lose X of ability score. Whatever is the case, one can make himself an object easy enough, tho not at level 1. Anyone else reminded of Super Mario Bros. 3? Tanooki Mario, specifically. So it looks like we need a super-strong fat man who can die, on command, in mid-air. That's... that's just awesome. -Skulan
Gloverboy 10-14-05, 01:11 PM	Anyone else reminded of Super Mario Bros. 3? Tanooki Mario, specifically. So it looks like we need a super-strong fat man who can die, on command, in mid-air. That's... that's just awesome. -Skulan Heh, I'm more reminded of Mario RPG, some glove weapon Bowser got that would let him throw random party members at the enemy. Twice if you the crit timing right.
Vrugdush 10-15-05, 06:50 PM	Give him a cohort that readies an action to kill him while he is mid-air (with a scroll of phantasmal killer/finger of death/power word killl/any decent damage spell)
psly4mne 10-15-05, 08:09 PM	Forget dealing damage! Attain real ultimate power at first level: dropped objects have a range increment of 50ft. after 250ft its considered an indirect hit. you have to hit an AC of 5 to hit the ground. it receives the normal -2 per range increment. it also gets a -4 to attacks because its an improvised weapon. the creature gets penalties depending on its maneuvrability: -2 average, -4 poor, -6 clumsy. if it misses it applies the same miss rules for a thrown weapon. Jumping presumably gives you clumsy maneuverability (-6). You could jump from a 250 ft. high building (-10). As a human cleric with the luck domain and 10 strength, you have BAB +0 (total -16 against AC 5) and can reroll once per day. This means you cannot hit AC 5 except on a 20. If you roll 20, reroll. If you manage to roll a 20 again (0.25%), die. Otherwise, you have managed to throw yourself at the ground and miss, which means you end up flying. EDIT: AC 5 is for one square (size medium). The entire ground, as colossal, has -8 to AC. However, if you simply carry a tower shield (-10 armor check penalty), you still cannot hit. Funny how carrying a 45 lb. shield makes it harder to hit the ground. Wonder if this isn't what the game designers meant... Douglas Adams was on to something.
oxybe 10-15-05, 08:38 PM	lol this is probly the most funny thing i ever saw... tanooki mario and the ability to "fly" at level 1. side note: with fling ally, you could have that bowser glove. (mario RPG is still a great game, despite it's age). i'm sure with the multitude of feats, one could create the timed-hit thing... but that's another challenge, for another time... also, if one has a sorcerer polymorph into a dragon turtle and with a proper using of the draconic heratage feats (the sac a spell for a breath weapon one), he could be bowser... w00t!
Gloverboy 10-15-05, 11:22 PM	Forget dealing damage! Attain real ultimate power at first level: Jumping presumably gives you clumsy maneuverability (-6). You could jump from a 200 ft. high building (-9). As a human cleric with the luck domain and 10 strength, you have BAB +0 (total -16 against AC 5) and can reroll once per day. This means you cannot hit AC 5 except on a 20. If you roll 20, reroll. If you manage to roll a 20 again (0.25%), die. Otherwise, you have managed to throw yourself at the ground and miss, which means you end up flying. Douglas Adams was on to something. Oh, God, one of the first games I played we talked about doing something like that ingame. We never tried it. Now we can.
Kirby179 10-21-05, 10:45 AM	Let us not forget the mechanic for the dragons' crush attack also sets a precedent much better than falling object damage. Dragons weigh significantly more than your half-orc, and... * Do 2d8 damage at the first size catagory usable * Have to be Huge to do it * Has a reflex save (mind you, equal to the breath weapon, but still doable) * Have to be 3 or more size cagatories larger than their target It's really, common-sense physics, a matter of density. If you throw a 400 lb. pillow on top of someone, it's not going to hurt as much as a 400 lb. block of lead. Why? Density. Objects do damage because they do not yield, hence why they take less damage from most attacks. Creatures *take* damage because the density of their bodies yield to force (with exceptions, though a half orc isn't an exception here). Having a precedent more towards the feat crush than your houseruled half-orc, whose battlecry is, "I AM AN OBJECT!" we must go with the precedent, and rule that the feat is the only way for a PC without the special attack 'fling self' or 'crush' to do such an attack, and that damage is in fact based on size, not weight. Now that I think about it, this character could have a command word PWK item targetted on him, with the command word being, "I AM AN OBJECT!" which he screams out just as he gets in position to crush the infidels. I feel dirty.
oxybe 10-21-05, 11:01 AM	yes, but remember, a dragon's crush isn't the suicide dive that the orc does, the dragon doesn't just free-fall it, he times his flight to precisely co-incide with the position of the PC he wants to crush. the dragon then adjusts his velocity and body so that he is perfectly positioned to take the less damage possible from the fall (IE = 0) while still dealing damage (the 2d8, which isnt alot considering the size of a dragon, heck a greataxe made for an ogre (large) does more damage (3d6) ...) our orc's attack has 3 steps 1-run 2-jump 3-free fall and hope to hit. far diffrent from the dragon's crush. also, never try to "common sense" things in d&d. i still dont know how anyone can use those 2 words while talking about a dragon sitting on someone...
Xeraph 10-24-05, 03:17 PM	What is the mkaximum speed a character can reach by falling alone? I mean, how many feet per round do you actually travel when you can't go any faster? Downwards?
Gloverboy 10-24-05, 05:42 PM	Let us not forget the mechanic for the dragons' crush attack also sets a precedent much better than falling object damage. Dragons weigh significantly more than your half-orc, and... * Do 2d8 damage at the first size catagory usable * Have to be Huge to do it * Has a reflex save (mind you, equal to the breath weapon, but still doable) * Have to be 3 or more size cagatories larger than their target It's really, common-sense physics, a matter of density. If you throw a 400 lb. pillow on top of someone, it's not going to hurt as much as a 400 lb. block of lead. Why? Density. Objects do damage because they do not yield, hence why they take less damage from most attacks. Creatures *take* damage because the density of their bodies yield to force (with exceptions, though a half orc isn't an exception here). Having a precedent more towards the feat crush than your houseruled half-orc, whose battlecry is, "I AM AN OBJECT!" we must go with the precedent, and rule that the feat is the only way for a PC without the special attack 'fling self' or 'crush' to do such an attack, and that damage is in fact based on size, not weight. Now that I think about it, this character could have a command word PWK item targetted on him, with the command word being, "I AM AN OBJECT!" which he screams out just as he gets in position to crush the infidels. I feel dirty. Actually, if you are working with equal weights, a 400 lb block of lead would conceivably hurt as much as a 400 lb pillow. its just the pillow would be a lot bigger than the lead, thanks to your density. I'd say the difference would be hardness, but at the same time, at 400 pounds, or 2 tons, hardness wont change the damage much. Trust me, 400 lbs of anything landing on your head will ruin your day, even a pillow.