Post/Author/DateTime	Post
b3jsd73jfx 12-11-06, 11:46 AM	Basically I'm just wondering if there's any obvious things I'm overlooking in this build. It looks pretty solid, but I'd like any ideas if there's some key points to making it better or not... Level Class Special 1 Sorcerer 1 Immediate Metamagics, Magical Aptitude, Silent Spell 2 Sorcerer 2 3 Sorcerer 3 Still Spell 4 Sorcerer 4 5 Sorcerer 5 6 Wild Mage 1 Wild Magic, Versatile Spellcaster 7 Wild Mage 2 Random Deflector 1/Day 8 Fatespinner 1 Spin Fate 9 Fatespinner 2 Fickle Finger of Fate, Empower Spell 10 Fatespinner 3 Spin Destiny 11 Fatespinner 4 Deny Fate, Resist Fate 12 Wild Mage 3 Student of Chaos, Practiced Spellcaster 13 Wild Mage 4 14 Wild Mage 5 Random Deflector 2/Day 15 Wild Mage 6 Chaotic Mind, Quicken Spell 16 Wild Mage 7 17 Wild Mage 8 Random Deflector 3/Dat 18 Wild Mage 9 Reckless Dweomer, Twin Spell 19 Wild Mage 10 Wildstrike 20 Sorcerer 6 +Unhindered casting of Metamagics (Immediate Metamagics) +Ability to act as a rod of wonder +Change targets of spells randomly +Reroll, a lot +Full casting progression +Auto-stabalize
DaveTheMagicWeasel 12-11-06, 12:02 PM	Practiced Spellcaster. Its added on before the dice roll for Wild Mage, meaning that you will have caster level 20+1d6. All the bonuses of Wild Mage, but with none of the drawbacks. (your DM may not be best pleased, but by RAW it works)
b3jsd73jfx 12-11-06, 12:21 PM	Oh yeah, see, I knew I was forgetting something...
Timlagor 12-11-06, 12:32 PM	SPELL LIST 90% of a Sorceror is their spell list! Sculpt Spell -this depends slightly on your spelllist but if you have a Sorceror without Grease or Glitterdust at lower levels and other nice stuff later then you're already suboptimal ;)
solbergb 12-11-06, 01:29 PM	. .
hogarth 12-11-06, 02:06 PM	You can't take Fatespinner at level 8 since you don't meet the prerequiste of being able to cast 4th level spells.
Nifft 12-11-06, 02:09 PM	One level of Mindbender + Mindsight feat (replaces Sorc 6).
Ander Spectacular 12-11-06, 02:35 PM	Fatespinner 5 is well worth the lost caster level, and is the primary reason to get into Fatespinner. Without that ability, the class is okay, but severely limited. Almost guaranteeing a creature will fail its save 1/day is a gift. I would also throw in Arcane Disciple luck for the reroll and access to miracle. -AS-
ThePrivateer 12-11-06, 04:43 PM	Fatespinner 5 is well worth the lost caster level, and is the primary reason to get into Fatespinner. Without that ability, the class is okay, but severely limited. Almost guaranteeing a creature will fail its save 1/day is a gift. I would also throw in Arcane Disciple luck for the reroll and access to miracle. -AS- I'd agree with that for a wizard, but not neccesarily a Sorcerer because of their slowed spell progression. Then again, it might be ok at 20th.
b3jsd73jfx 12-11-06, 05:00 PM	You can't take Fatespinner at level 8 since you don't meet the prerequiste of being able to cast 4th level spells. Yes, 8th level is the first level where a sorcerer has access to 4th level spells SPELL LIST 90% of a Sorceror is their spell list! Sculpt Spell -this depends slightly on your spelllist but if you have a Sorceror without Grease or Glitterdust at lower levels and other nice stuff later then you're already suboptimal ;) Don't have a spell list yet either, just threw this concept together.
hogarth 12-11-06, 05:04 PM	Yes, 8th level is the first level where a sorcerer has access to 4th level spells. You can't qualify for a prestige class by taking a level in that prestige class! Of course if your DM allows it, go right ahead!
JosephKell 12-11-06, 05:08 PM	Depending on your DM (or campaign) Practiced Spellcaster could be applied before or after the wild magic of the Wild Mage. In Living Greyhawk, it is after. In that example, if you cast a spell, you roll the d6, add that to your CL, then apply Practiced Spellcaster (to a max of your HD). If you are already over your HD from the d6, Practiced Spellcaster doesn't help, if you are still below your HD, it will move you up to your CL. Basically on a 1-3 you use your HD as CL, on a 4 you get +1, 5 +2, 6 +3. But if you are missing more CL (like if you did Fatespinner 5), then 1-4 is your HD, while 5 and 6 give a +1 and +2 respectively. A DM is well within her or his right to dictate that Wild Magic is applied before or after Practised Spellcaster. I recommend open discussion with your DM before trying to pull something because when it will become apparent that something is up the first time you try to use it. Security through obscurity never works for long. ;) -Jonathan
Skrimshaw 12-11-06, 05:09 PM	I would also throw in Arcane Disciple luck for the reroll and access to miracle. -AS- (emphasis mine) Arcane disciple feat doesn't grant the domain ability, just the adds the spells to ones available spell list.
solbergb 12-11-06, 05:55 PM	Actually fatespinner5 is crap unless you usually fight opponents of lower hitdice than you at level 13+ Which isn't my experience. It's also crap because it doesn't advance saves or BAB. Level 5 is just horrible for all classes in that area. Never take the 5th level of a 5 level PRC unless it is really, really good. And it is hard to be really, really good if you're losing a caster level. Nearly impossible in fact. -10 to one save which only works on enemies weaker than you is no compensation at all for loss of a caster level. It's barely compensation for taking a sucky BAB/Save level.
EpicEvokerElf 12-11-06, 06:18 PM	Depending on your DM (or campaign) Practiced Spellcaster could be applied before or after the wild magic of the Wild Mage. In Living Greyhawk, it is after. In that example, if you cast a spell, you roll the d6, add that to your CL, then apply Practiced Spellcaster (to a max of your HD). If you are already over your HD from the d6, Practiced Spellcaster doesn't help, if you are still below your HD, it will move you up to your CL. Basically on a 1-3 you use your HD as CL, on a 4 you get +1, 5 +2, 6 +3. But if you are missing more CL (like if you did Fatespinner 5), then 1-4 is your HD, while 5 and 6 give a +1 and +2 respectively. A DM is well within her or his right to dictate that Wild Magic is applied before or after Practised Spellcaster. I recommend open discussion with your DM before trying to pull something because when it will become apparent that something is up the first time you try to use it. Security through obscurity never works for long. -Jonathan Actually, the OFFICIAL ERRATA and ACTUAL TEXT both say that the benefit can be applied whenever it is most beneficial to you. This means BEFORE wild magic! So, if your DM says it applies after wild magic, you can say, "Sorry SUCKER, the rules say it goes before!" If your DM or whatever in whatever this Living Greyhawk thing is said that, they were either A)high (since I think they'd be officially certified) or B) an idiot. No offense meant to the DM, of course! ;) BTW, fatespinner 5 is horrible! Its ability stinks, and the CL loss is worse (esp. for a sorc.). DON'T TAKE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Timlagor 12-11-06, 11:27 PM	Fatespinner 5 stinks. Calling your DM an idiot is rarely a good idea.
solbergb 12-12-06, 12:05 AM	Actually, the OFFICIAL ERRATA and ACTUAL TEXT both say that the benefit can be applied whenever it is most beneficial to you. This means BEFORE wild magic! So, if your DM says it applies after wild magic, you can say, "Sorry SUCKER, the rules say it goes before!" If your DM or whatever in whatever this Living Greyhawk thing is said that, they were either A)high (since I think they'd be officially certified) or B) an idiot. Actually Living Greyhawk uses the official FAQ entry that you're referring to, and the wild mage is covered in that example. You need to read the whole thing instead of quoting it out of context, and also think through the possible interpretations. It comes out +0/0/0/1/2/3 the 1d6-3 to caster level is ONE effect. you don't go "-3" ok, now add practiced spellcaster, ok now roll 1d6. That's just as stupid as the people who continue to argue that an empowered magic missile only applies to the 1d4 and not the 1d4+1 in spite of the explicit example that says otherwise. I mean..you CAN rule that way, but it's probably the least probable interpretation compared to the other two. If the practiced spellcaster was applied first, nothing would happen (a L12 caster is still a L12 caster after practiced spellcaster...then you roll 1d6-3 and apply it...that could result in a -2/-1/0/1/2/3 result....the FAQ came down on the most beneficial result...which is where you roll 1d6-3 and if it's below your base caster level, practiced spellcaster fixes it up) But it doesn't matter what you think or what I think. In all conditions where the rules are ambiguous (and that's like 70 or 80% of the RAW) what the DM thinks is going to win, and no amount of whining from a player is going to do anything but annoy him. That is true even if the DM prides himself on ruling strictly to the RAW. The RAW isn't computer code. It isn't very precise and quite often errs on the side of readibility instead of exactness. Plus the authors don't agree on all the mechanics (witness swift action wands in CA, and the SC and MH rules that say such wands would take a std action to use, making them absolutely useless) and they are often blissfully unaware of what happens when you combine rules (nightsticks and divine feats) from different sources or mix mechanics (linear by weight improvised weapon table, exponential carrying capacity table and hulking hurler) It's just stupid to base a build on anything ambiguous or even tricky without clearing it with the DM first. There isn't anything less optimal than causing a game to break up after a year of play because you and the DM get into an argument about the ability you've spent your entire career working towards, or you not quitting but fuming about it and being mad instead of paying attention to the game.
copper_wyrmling 12-12-06, 12:40 AM	Your levels look just like my Living Greyhawk sorcerer (although she's going sorcerer 6 / wild mage 6 then into fatespinner, because she had to play from L1 rather than starting at high level, and meeting all the skill requirements takes a while) :) I think it's a pretty solid build. When I rebuild my sorcerer's feats at L16, I intend to cram in as much metamagic and feats to reduce the cost of metamagic as I possibly can, but that depends heavily on your spell list - I like ray spells, which tend to work very well with "boom" metamagics like Empower, Split Ray, Ocular Spell, etc. I wouldn't take the fifth level of Fatespinner, but if you can fit in the skill requirements you could go Mindbender 1 instead of sorcerer 6. Be warned, however, meeting the skill reqs for Mindbender AND Fatespinner AND Wild Mage is not trivial - you'll need a reasonable Int. I don't think my sorc will ever have Practised Spellcaster - I just don't think it's worthwhile for a feat slot, assuming you play by the ruling in the FAQ. It's an extra 1/2 caster level, on average, and it doesn't help you attain a higher caster level than you would otherwise be capable of. I think there are generally better things to do with a feat, in most sorcerer builds.