Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StruckingFuggle 12-24-06, 05:21 PM	Flipping through CM and then ToB, I had this character pop to mind, who needs a lot of fleshing out from the skeletal concept, and thus, I turn to you, the CO board, for some help. Resources: Core, Complete, Races, ToB, PGTF (but it's not an FR game, so no Shadow Weave stuff), Heroes of Horror, LoM, LM, UE, UA, and the Spell Compendium The Build: Illusionist 3 / Master Specialist 4 / Shadowcraft Mage 1 / Swordsage 1 / Shadowcraft Mage 2-5 / ???? Notes: he gives up his Familiar for the Chains of Disbelief (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionist Variants) alternate feature from UA, and probably his bonus spell/day for the Illusion Mastery alternate feature, also from UA, as well as the first Gnome Illusionist racial substitution level (thus lowering his caster level for Transmutation spells by 1). Swordsage is there specifically to get a Shadow Hand stance for Shadow Trickster. And it should be obvious why Shadowcraft Mage is there. :) Forbidden Schools: Evocation and Necromancy. Evocation because he can eventually use Shadow Evocation and Silent Illusion to duplicate almost anything out of it. Necromancy is there because - well it's the first school I can think of to part with. Yeah, I'll miss False Life and Vampiric Touch and the like, but not as much as I'd miss alternate school - sure, he's got Silent Illusion and Shadow Conjuration, but I value my Dimension X and Teleports. Stat priority: Int > everything else (probably Con > Dex > Cha > Wis > Str) ... he should be outside combat most of the time, and not making many attack rolls. Int boosts his spell DCs, and then Con for fort saves, Dex for in case he somehow does end up being targeted he has a bit more AC, and then the other three I don't see as ending up being very important. Race: Forest Gnome - like a Rock Gnome, but a bit sneakier and impossible to track! What's not to like? (originally I wanted to use a Whisper Gnome, and still might, except they lose the +1 to the DC of Illusion Spells - which is too bad, as otherwise they're perfect) Maneuvers: Shadow Jaunt, ??? Stances: Child of Shadow (eventually will be superceeded by a SCM class feature, but he wouldn't get much use out of Thicket of Blades, as that'd put him in combat.) Feats: 1: Spell Focus (Illusion) 3: Heighten Spell 6: Extend Spell Master Specialist bonus: Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) 9: Shadow Trickster 12: ? 15: ? 18: ? He could easily take the Shaky and Noncombatant flaws to fit in more feats if need be, though as it is I'm not sure how to round out his feats beyond Shadow Trickster at 9th, and Heighten Spell (to combine with Shadow Illusion, giving him 9th level Silent Images which can duplicate Conj(Summoning/Creation) and Evocation spells now of 8th level or lower)... Maybe then I should drop Swordsage altogether and just pick up Martial Maneuver (Shadow Jaunt) and Martial Stance (concealment)? Also, for the last seven levels: I'm leaning towards Abjurant Champion (I mean, why not? auto-quickened Dispel Magic could be nice), or maybe Nightmare Weaver, also from Complete Mage - I mean, sure, he loses a second caster level, but he gets more illusion spells and a few more tricks. Or maybe Dread Witch from HoH? I'm sure someone's got a good idea. If nothing else, more Illusionist, and snag the fifth and tenth level Gnome Illusionist substitution levels, or discard the substitution levels in favor of the Shadow Shaper alt. class feature from UA (but only if he's rounding out with Wizard). As a Gnome, he's got a +1 to his save DCs for Illusionist. SF and GSF raise this to +3, and with Shadow Trickster it becomes +5 in a shadow hand stance (which would be always), and then the fourth level of Master Specialist bumps the DC to +7 for anything that is "will disbelief", resulting in a DC of 15+spell level+int mod, or 17 if 'will disbelief' ... before adding spell level and intelligence modifier. Also, big question: so he has these huge illusion save DCs... but I've never really played an illusionist before, this whole build was inspired by the noticing how many ways there are to jack up illusion spell DCs. So: What can and should I do with this guy? What spells would be good ones to pick up? What should he do? (man, I wish Sorcerors could specialize, because if he could simply cast spontaneously, he'd be a beast - though there's enough versatility with Shadow Illusion and Shadow Evoke/Conj and Shades that he almost IS, muwahaha)
ed209 12-24-06, 05:45 PM	... This may prove helpful...
StruckingFuggle 12-24-06, 05:53 PM	Huh, so it may. Awesome. Thank you. So now, looking at the guide, I wonder, is Master Specialist 4 worth getting? Is 3 worth getting for a free Greater Spell Focus? Or could the levels be better spent elsehwere? (his build is now Illusionist 3 / Master Specialist 4 / Shadowcraft Mage 1 / Swordsage 1 / Shadowcraft Mage 2-5 / Shadowcrafter 1-7 ... and he feels feat-starved, even with two flaws, though I don't know how to get in more feats, without dropping two levels for his bonus feat at Illusionist 5, but - master specialist gives him the +2 DC for Will Disbelief, and Swordsage 1 gets him the +2 DC for Illusions while in a shadow stance (though dropping that would free up another feat, too, but is it worth the loss of the +2 DC?)
HotSake 12-24-06, 06:23 PM	You could just take two feats to get the stance, thereby preserving a caster level.
StruckingFuggle 12-24-06, 07:19 PM	True, though then it ends up costing two feats, which he doesn't necessarily have to spare (it becomes a question of "what do I get rid of to add more feats?") As it stands: 1: Spell Focus (Illusion) f1: Heighten Spell f2: Earth Sense 3: Arcane Thesis (Silent Image) (though really right now I have no idea why I'm taking this, other than "+2 caster level") Master Specialist 1: Skill Focus (Spellcraft) 6: Earth Spell Master Specialist 2: Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) 9: Shadow Trickster 12: Signature Spell (Silent Image) 15: Spell Penetration 18: ??? ... I may decide to drop another school (conjuration? :() and swap out Shadowcrafter for Incantatrix, to pick up some bonus Metamagic feats and lighten the load, though...
LogicNinja 12-24-06, 07:24 PM	Arcane Thesis(Silent Image) Is so you can metamagic the Silent Image you Heighten and convert into other spells via your Shadowcraft Mage ability.
StruckingFuggle 12-24-06, 07:26 PM	Oops. Ended up double posting. Ignore this.
altpersona 12-24-06, 07:27 PM	you have room for the flaws...
Qatharsis 12-24-06, 07:30 PM	Does the gnome illusionist theme also work out with the Beguiler class, or is the choice of specialist wizard a must? The sneak casting abilities look rather useful.
StruckingFuggle 12-24-06, 07:35 PM	Arcane Thesis(Silent Image) Is so you can metamagic the Silent Image you Heighten and convert into other spells via your Shadowcraft Mage ability. Yeah, but at the moment the only metamagic he has is Heighten and Earth Spell. you have room for the flaws... The flaws are already in there, as denoted by f1 and f2, sorry. Does the gnome illusionist theme also work out with the Beguiler class, or is the choice of specialist wizard a must? The sneak casting abilities look rather useful. And hm, I never really thought of the beguiler. Other than the nifty tricks provided by his specialization, I'm just sort of married to the idea of wizard partly for Master Specialist (though I could part with that, yeah) and partly for the sheer versatility of the Wizard class. On the other hand ... hm. I'll have to look into it.
mercury529 12-24-06, 07:48 PM	True, though then it ends up costing two feats, which he doesn't necessarily have to spare (it becomes a question of "what do I get rid of to add more feats?") As it stands: 1: Spell Focus (Illusion) f1: Heighten Spell f2: Earth Sense 3: Arcane Thesis (Silent Image) (though really right now I have no idea why I'm taking this, other than "+2 caster level") Master Specialist 1: Skill Focus (Spellcraft) 6: Earth Spell Master Specialist 2: Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) 9: Shadow Trickster 12: Signature Spell (Silent Image) 15: Spell Penetration 18: ??? ... I may decide to drop another school (conjuration? :() and swap out Shadowcrafter for Incantatrix, to pick up some bonus Metamagic feats and lighten the load, though... My advice is to ditch Signature Spell. While it adds some nice versatility, it also means that all your spotaneous Silent Images now take a full round action to cast (since they are heightened). You'd have to take another feat just to counteract that. Quite frankly, the bonus just does not seem worth it. You are a wizard. You are supposed to think forward and prepare spells that you will be most likely to need. Furthermore, as an ScM you have FAR more on the fly versatility than any other wizard. Having access to any evocation or conjuration (summoning/creation) through Silent Image is tremendously versatile. You should not need much more. I may be wrong, but I don't think you can take Arcane Thesis that early. I think either 6 or 9 is the earliest it can be taken. I thought it had knowledge requirements. If so, you can swap it with Earth Spell. Residual Metamagic is a WONDERFUL feat for ScMs. It might be too powerful, but worth considering. I may be wrong, but I think generally Arcane Mastery is considered superior to Spell Penetration. Also, Arcane Thesis gives you +2 caster levels which effectively gives you +2 to caster level checks for SR. And it gives you longer duration, more damage, etc. And it gives you reduced cost of metamagic. So yeah, it's pretty good ;). If you are going to drop another school, I would suggest dropping Enchantment. Giving up conjuration means losing access to Teleport conjuration spells. Remember Shadow Conjuration only gives you access to creation/summoning conjurations. Enchantment has a lot of overlap with illusion, so it makes a good school to drop.
celloshane 12-24-06, 08:38 PM	I don't think that Swordsage is gaining you as much as you think it is. The +2 DC increase is only a net gain of +1 for your shadow spells since they will be heightened for the most part. You'll also be losing a caster level, inhibiting your spells/day and ability to overcome SR. It looks good on the surface, but I'm not sure that Swordsage is worthwhile in this build. I also question the need for Arcane Thesis, it doesn't interact with Heighten Spell and your illusions are already Silenced so you really aren't getting as much bang for your buck. Switch it out for Spell Mastery -- which you've left off the list if you want Signature Spell. In all, I would drop Swordsage, Shadow Trickster, Arcane Thesis, and Shadowcaster, Add Iron Will and Spell Masteryand put the unused levels in Incantrix. If you want some more ideas or an alternate perspective, check out my Shadowcaster thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=760944). I could certainly use some input myself.
mercury529 12-24-06, 09:04 PM	Celloshane: Arcane Thesis gives you +2 caster level with all silent image spells. That is huge. That is 2 to beat SR (Same as Spell Penetration), 2 caster levels for all spell effects based on caster level (damage, duration, etc). In addition if you are advocating going the incantrix route, it is even better because it makes all those metamagic feats you pick up cheaper. Empower for 1 spell level, quicken for 3, Maximize for 2 for any Shadow Conjuration or Evocation. Seeing as that is most of the spells you are going to be casting, it's like getting the 10th level of incantrix as a feat you can use by 9th level. Arcane Thesis is a very powerful component of the build. Edit: For instance, let's consider Cone of Cold. Not exactly a great spell, but it sure is fun. At 10th level (the level you get the ScM staple abillity without using early entry tricks), a normal cone of cold would deal 10d6 damage (avg 33). Your cone of cold however is better. It does 12d6 damage (avg 42) at level 10. That's a 25% boost in damage. Of course there are other spells that are significantly better to use this with. It gets even more fun when you throw in the +1 to caster level from Create Magic Tatoo (I would STRONGLY urge this for anyone who uses ScM). It lasts 48 hours with the free extend and costs no material component. Perfect if you have spells left over at the end of the day. Your party will love you, and it is the best 5 ranks (5+5 int bonus for a 10 on the craft DC) you'll ever spend.
celloshane 12-24-06, 11:28 PM	I see your point, that makes Arcane Thesis sound much better than I originally thought. I'm a little confused though, I didn't think you could apply metamagic like Maximize to the illusion and have it effect the spell you are imitating. You seem to know this stuff better than me Mercury, mind taking a look at my thread?:bow:
mercury529 12-25-06, 10:24 AM	Cello: When you convert a Silent Image, it effectively becomes a Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spell. As such, if you Maximize a Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, it affects whatever spell you are creating with it. As for me knowing a lot, I have just essentially gotten adequate at regurgitating the wisdom of those who came before me haha.