Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aristulous 05-21-04, 10:04 AM	I'm currently working on my 7th Level Human "Stealth" Wizard. He just took a Level in Cleric. Gonna bring him up to 3rd level so he can cast 2nd Lvl Cleric Silence Spells. Any suggestions (Spells/Feats) to make this build more effective would be appreciated. Loong time player (1st/2nd ed) but new to the 3.5 Rules... learning quickly though. 3.5 Rules w/ D20 3rd party books allowed (AEG...Troll Lords...etc) Aristulous - Human 7th Level Wiz 1st Level Cleric 19 Int (21 concerning spells w/spellcaster prodigy feat) 14 Wis 16 Con (49 HP's) Current spells I think would work for my build... not too complicated. All these spells will be cast at the same time to prepare for a combat/mission Improved Invisibility (4th Wiz-PHB 3.5) Stone Skin (4th Wiz-PHB 3.5) FLY (3rd Wiz-PHB 3.5) * no foot-steps * Silence (2nd Cleric-PHB 3.5) Remove Scent (1st Wiz- Wizards.com) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20021025a) * No more damn dogs sniffing me out * This was a cool one that someone suggested to me in a different forum. DM is allowing it... just have to find someone/scroll to learn it. My Current Feats: Spellcaster Prodigy (FR Guide) Improved Init Spell Focus (Conjuration) Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) Silent Spell not sure where Conjuration fits into my build but I picked them non the less... maybe get Augment Summoning send monsters into battle while I float about with my FLY spell. Thinking about getting Extend Spell too as my next Feat. This will help prolong the lower duration "stealth" spells. This combo would also make it easier to get flanking bonuses with my Range Touch Attacks. According to the rules (3.5 PHB pg 151)... I also get +2 to hit with my Range Attacks. Defender also loses all DEX. Hmm appears to be a deadly combo...
Santherus 05-21-04, 10:17 AM	I'm afraid that flanking applies only to melee attacks, not ranged. If you're going to move up to Cleric 3, you might as well progress as a mystic theurge from then on in (see DMG/SRD for more details on the theurge) - nothing really to lose at that point. You'll end up casting as a Wizard 17, Cleric 13. Not great feats picked at the moment - pick up practised spellcaster for both your casting classes as you move forwards, along with spell penetration and greater spell penetration. Search the boards for spell suggestions. Good luck! edit: p.s. Don't forget to boost your wisdom!
Aristulous 05-21-04, 10:33 AM	On table 8-5 Pg 151 3.5 PHB... it says I get +2 "Ranged" when invisible. I'll have to read up on the "Theurge" sounds like a great option for me. Where do I find "Practised Spellcaster" ?
rilem 05-21-04, 10:41 AM	Originally posted by Aristulous I'm currently working on my 7th Level Human "Stealth" Wizard. He just took a Level in Cleric. Gonna bring him up to 3rd level .... What? In the name of heaven, why? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "stealth" wizard. Your tactical motif seems to be somebody who stays hidden while casting summoning spells and harassing targets. That's all fine. But to take a 3-level caster hit to cast silence? Ugh. You'll be behind spellcasting for the rest of your career. At this rate you'll get fifth-level spells at CL12, when wizards of your level are already casting Contingency and are one level away from 7th level spells. I'm not even sure what the tactical import of silence is for you, aside from casting it on opposing casters. Casting it on yourself to take advantage of your Silent Spell feat is nearly pointless -- it's only a 20-foot emanation, and by your own strategy you'll be well oustide of combat most of the time. Regardless, sacrificing so much spellcasting for a single, not-so-great spell is ludicrous. You could just take the versatile feat and gain the use of use magic device and get a Wand of Silence. Or just research a similar spell. You're a wizard; go hit the library. With the exception of a few other spells (undetectable alignment, invisibility from undead) there aren't many "stealth" spells that clerics get but wizards don't. If you're adamant on this course, there are options for you — you could pursue a standard Mystic Theurge build, going Wiz7/Cleric3/MT10 — you'll have some decent firepower at the end, though the next several levels will be difficult for you. Make sure to take Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Divine (maybe twice), as it will help with your diminished caster level. (It's like a bead of karma, raises spellcasting level but doesn't give you extra spells). Probably a better course would be a skills-oriented wizard, Going Wiz7/Cleric1/HarperMage3/MasterHarper9*. You'd need to sub some of your feats (Spellcasting Prodigy isn't worth as much in 3.5, so change that for extend spell, needed for Harper Mage). Also, if you're going to do a lot of summoning I'd consider Augment Summoning instead of GSF (conj), which you can pick up later. Finally, if you could work in Versatile to take some stealthy skills that'd be good. Complete Divine might also have a way to get some divine spells as an arcane caster. I'll think about that. What domains did you choose? Planning would get you extend spell for free. *Credit where it's due: This is a riff on a skills-oriented Mage posited by Snow Savant in the "Evaluating the Arcane Trickster" thread.
Cappo 05-21-04, 10:47 AM	Just a few thoughts: If you can, get rid of your new Cleric Level. Even with practiced caster, your Spellcasting will suffer. Mystic Theurge isn't such a great Stealth Character overall, anyway. If you're only looking for Silence, then take a Wizard PrC like Loremaster that grants your Use Magic Device as a Class skill and buy a Wand. For me, a Stealth Wizard is all about skills. If you're looking for a full Wizard with all relevant Stealth skills, then look here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=226075&highlight=skill+monkey). Besides of this being Stealthy is mostly about Spells. Invisibility, Ghostform, Gaseous Form or Polymorph could all augment your Stealth capabilities. And that is even without keeping in mind all those nice Illusions for drawing attention away from you.
Santherus 05-21-04, 10:52 AM	Arist: Practised Spellcaster can be found in 'Complete Divine'. You will indeed get bonii to hit from being invisible, but you will not flank. Your opponent will lose their dex bonus to AC if they cannot see you however (unless they have uncanny dodge). Rilem is technically correct in his analysis of the build - but I'm confident that if you wish to go in the direction that you seem headed (Cleric/Mage), you can at least bring off something decent with practised spellcaster. Please be advised that my advice above is predicated on you being new to 3.5 - I've kept things as simple as possible. Rilem's build advice is good. I've simply taken your wishes+current build and moved them forward: my advice is by no means the only option available to you, but is my best effort at making an effective build with what you already have. If you have a search on the boards, you'll find plenty more advice. Edit: Crossed with Cappo - see? Plenty more good options available to you - assuming that you can change an existing build.
necrosnoop110 05-21-04, 10:56 AM	How about this for a build: Human or Strongheart Halfling Wizard 5/ Shadow Adept 1/ Harper Mage 4/ Mindbender 1/ Virtuoso 9 1 Wizard 1 (Alertness) (Shadow Weave Magic) 2 Wizard 2 3 Wizard 3 (Extend Spell) 4 Wizard 4 5 Wizard 5 6 Shadow Adept 1 (Free Feat) 7 Harper Mage 1 8 Harper Mage 2 9 Harper Mage 3 (Free Feat) 10 Harper Mage 4 11 Mindbender 1 12 Virtuoso 1 (Disguise Spell) 13 Virtuoso 2 14 Virtuoso 3 15 Virtuoso 4 (Subsonics) 16 Virtuoso 5 17 Virtuoso 6 18 Virtuoso 7 (Free Feat) 19 Virtuoso 8 20 Virtuoso 9 Max out the social skills, Move Silently, Hide, Perform (sing) Any spells you need form the Cleric list create them. I doubt any reasonable DM would deny a Mage's Silent Waltz for a character such as yours. Alternatively go Sorcerer instead of Wizard and pick up the Use Magic Device skill so you can cast those low level Cleric spells you want. Sources: PHB 3.5 [Wizard] Player’s Guide to Faerun 3.5 [Shadow Adept] Magic of Faerun 3.0 [Harper Mage] Tome and Blood 3.0 [Mindbender] Song and Silence 3.0 [Virtuoso]
rilem 05-21-04, 11:23 AM	In my experience it's often easier to change several feats than one class level, but it'd be good to know the options. And Cleric1/Wiz7 isn't terrible; your arcane casting ability is no worse off than a sorceror, and with the right domains (Example: Planning and Time give you Imp. Init and Extend Spell for free) it can be a decent trade-off. You gain: +2 Fort and Will Saves, Two good feats and some divine spells and Undead turning, both of which can open the door for some good PrCs later, in exchange for one spell level and (compared to Wiz8, +1 Will and +1BAB). It seems an OK trade. The Mystic Theurge is looked down upon a lot on this board, except in some pretty complex builds, but it can have value in the right party if the player isn't expected to cast high-level spells. So that is an option if you're really set on three cleric levels.
Aristulous 05-21-04, 11:30 AM	Originally posted by rilem What? In the name of heaven, why? Well... I thought the healing would come in handy too at times. Well I'm learning... I'll print out the ideas here so I can make a more effective "Stealth" Wizard next time... You guys come up with some VERY advanced tactics... I'm learning and studying what you guys are putting forth... with the 3rd party D20 books... there is just a VAST amount of info to pour over... but I like that..<g>
rilem 05-21-04, 11:36 AM	What does the rest of the party look like? It can have a big impact. If, for example, your group has got a tricked-out arcane caster already but little or no Divine casting prowess, an MT build starts to look a lot better.
Aristulous 05-21-04, 11:46 AM	The Party contains: 1: Cleric at 5th level w/3 levels of Fighter 2: Monk 8th Level 3: Fighter 9th Level We all pretty much started at 1st level. Campaign is about 5 months old. We are long time players with 1st/2nd ed but new to the 3.5 rules And yes... we've had a couple of characters die... new ones rolled up.
rilem 05-21-04, 12:06 PM	So you do need healing, that's true. However, you could take Craft Wand and, with the cleric/fighter, boost your capability quite a bit that way. I've never played a Mystic Theurge personally, but the consensus around here seems to be that, while potent at higher levels (and hysterically powerful in nasty-villain builds), actually playing one from lower levels is very tough, b/c you're never casting at the level that monsters at your CR level are designed for. Snow Savant described the MT as "a shambling wreck of a PrC," which should give you an idea of how popular it is among some of the regulars. However, the Practiced Spellcaster feat just came out and hasn't really been included in people's calculations around here yet. There's suspicion that it will help MT builds but nobody's sure how much. If you go for it, you'll need to consider your moves carefully. Do a search for "Theurge" on this board, and 1. Definitely take the Practiced Caster feats -- use domain selection to offset the lost feat slots. 2. Even with practiced caster, your spell DCs will be lower than they should be, because you're casting lower-level spells. Spell Focus will help, but consider taking spells that don't allow saves. Do searches for "battlefield" on this board to get a selection of spells that let you control action and movement in combat. You will necessarily shift away somewhat from an offensive caster to a support caster. 3. Again, Augment Summoning is a good idea.
UMiskatonic 05-21-04, 12:27 PM	If your intent is to float around, summoning creatures to fight, then why not keep it simple? Wizard 8 (or whatever you've gotten to by now) Silent Spell feat, or better yet, a metamagic rod of silence. Stealth is a good option, but honestly, I can't see it being useful 24 hours a day. Use it when you need to. Sometimes, flying will be enough to keep you out of the way. U Misk
Borin 05-21-04, 01:22 PM	When you cast Silence, you lose the ability to cast yourself while in the area of the spell. Since it's an emanation (area), you could make an item with Silence and Permanency. If it's in your pocket/bag, the Silence emanation won't affect anything outside your pocket or bag. If you want Silence, just get that item and hold it. Put the item away when you want to cast.
Ramses III 05-21-04, 04:33 PM	Originally posted by Borin When you cast Silence, you lose the ability to cast yourself while in the area of the spell. Since it's an emanation (area), you could make an item with Silence and Permanency. If it's in your pocket/bag, the Silence emanation won't affect anything outside your pocket or bag. If you want Silence, just get that item and hold it. Put the item away when you want to cast. Silence does not work like Darkness in this manner. If you have the Silenced object on you, you are in the middle of the emanation and are silenced even if it is concealed. However if you kept it in a bag of holding or other extradimensional holding device this tactic would work. I reccomend Heward's Handy Haversack as it is only a move-equivalent action to retrieve anything in it.
Nazzareth 05-21-04, 07:44 PM	drop cleric take rogue and go for arcane trickster and one level of shadow dancer. It might be to late in the levels for you to do this as the requirements a quite high. One of my favourite characters Sly was a rogue\wizard\arcane trickster with one level of shadow dancer. He was very powerful and dominated the game (play them smart and tricksy).
Aristulous 05-29-04, 02:45 AM	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Borin When you cast Silence, you lose the ability to cast yourself while in the area of the spell. I took Silent Spell Feat so I can cast in Silence. Pretty cool. When I close with a Spellcaster with Silence 20' radius about me... he better have that feat or he's SOL. When I make 3rd level Cleric gonna be one of the 1st spells I cast w/Greater Invis before going into combat.