Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Walach 11-14-03, 05:15 AM	“The Beast” human / half-ogre Level 13 (Bar1/warr11/ +1 lev adj.) H-ogre template: +4 Str / -2 Int / -2 Cha Size increase: +8 Str / -2 Dex / +4 Con 32 points buy: Str 17 + 12 + 3 advan. = 32 (+11) Dex 14 – 2 = 12 (+1) Cos 16 + 4 = 20 (+5) Int 8 – 2 = 6 Wis 11 = 11 Cha 8 - 2 = 6 Feat: 11 + 1 (human) Weapon Focus / Iron will / Imp. Initiative / Combat refl. / Pow. Attack / Weapon spec. / Power Lunge (S&f) / Hold the line (S&F) / Improved critical / Headlong Rush (RoF) / Large & in charge (S&F 61) / Power critical (Motw 24). Bab 12 –1 (size) + 11 = 22 (+1 weap. focus) Attacks: 23 / 18 / 13 Weapon: Huge heavy flail / 2d8 dmg. / crit. 17 – 20 x2. 1)Dmg in charge: [2b8 (9) + 22 (str*2/power lunge) + 2 spec.] *2 (headlong rush) = 66 ! 2)Dmg in charge with Power Critical: [33] *3= 99 !! 3)Dmg in charge with Pow. Crit. + Pow. Attack (10)= [2d8 (9) + 22 +2 + 20] *3= 163 !!! 1) attack with 25 (23+2 charge) 2) “ “ 3) 15 ( 23 +2 – 10) “still good vs/low Ca” Considerations: -Power lunge + Headlong rush= attack of opportunity The large size cancel this vs/smaller creatures - If charged, make an AoO (hold the line / large size) using the “Large & in charge” feat. :)
draegl0th 11-14-03, 05:26 AM	A Heavy Fullblade would a better damage outlet than a Dire Flail. If you decide to focus on charge, get a weapon with the Valorous Enchantmet, which doubles charge damage.
DeadEye 11-14-03, 06:38 AM	Originally posted by Walach “The Beast” human / half-ogre Level 13 (Bar1/warr11/ +1 lev adj.) H-ogre template: +4 Str / -2 Int / -2 Cha Size increase: +8 Str / -2 Dex / +4 Con 32 points buy: Str 17 + 12 + 3 advan. = 32 (+11) Dex 14 – 2 = 12 (+1) Cos 16 + 4 = 20 (+5) Int 8 – 2 = 6 Wis 11 = 11 Cha 8 - 2 = 6 Feat: 11 + 1 (human) Weapon Focus / Iron will / Imp. Initiative / Combat refl. / Pow. Attack / Weapon spec. / Power Lunge (S&f) / Hold the line (S&F) / Improved critical / Headlong Rush (RoF) / Large & in charge (S&F 61) / Power critical (Motw 24). Bab 12 –1 (size) + 11 = 22 (+1 weap. focus) Attacks: 23 / 18 / 13 Weapon: Huge heavy flail / 2d8 dmg. / crit. 17 – 20 x2. 1)Dmg in charge: [2b8 (9) + 22 (str*2/power lunge) + 2 spec.] *2 (headlong rush) = 66 ! 2)Dmg in charge with Power Critical: [33] *3= 99 !! 3)Dmg in charge with Pow. Crit. + Pow. Attack (10)= [2d8 (9) + 22 +2 + 20] *3= 163 !!! 1) attack with 25 (23+2 charge) 2) “ “ 3) 15 ( 23 +2 – 10) “still good vs/low Ca” Considerations: -Power lunge + Headlong rush= attack of opportunity The large size cancel this vs/smaller creatures - If charged, make an AoO (hold the line / large size) using the “Large & in charge” feat. :) Better yet, try it without the hideous uber-cheese of the Dragon Half-Ogre template :rolleyes: I mean, honestly. Pick Orc as your starting race; that's 34 Strength at level 2. That goes beyond munchkin and into plain idiotic.
draegl0th 11-14-03, 06:40 AM	Are you on the wrong board?
DeadEye 11-14-03, 11:26 AM	I have issues with phenomenally stupid rules. The half-ogre and half-minotaur templates are not broken. They're shattered. I mean, people think the SS Half Ogre is bordering broken. Yet the template half-ogre, for some reason, thinks doubling the strength bonus is more reasonable. Thus, the half-ogre template actually gives a higher strength bonus than an ogre does, and you don't have crappy monster hitdice as a balancing factor. I'm of the opinion that if a 2nd level character can have a potential 34 strength, then something is Dreadfully Wrong. In short, this template was so bad, it gave me cancer. Thank you.
ruleslawyer 11-14-03, 12:32 PM	IMO, DeadEye's is a fair response, if only to point out how this build is likely to fly if presented in an actual game. I tend to think that the half-ogre template from Dragon is outrageous, it isn't in a rulebook (even a 3rd-party one), and it's an alternative to a more official existing race. Doesn't mean this build isn't valid or worthy of commenting on, but it is something to consider.
Tytalus 11-14-03, 01:02 PM	Originally posted by Walach “The Beast” human / half-ogre Level 13 (Bar1/warr11/ +1 lev adj.) H-ogre template: +4 Str / -2 Int / -2 Cha Size increase: +8 Str / -2 Dex / +4 Con You don't get any extra bonuses for size increase. It's no increase if you start off as large race.
catharz 11-14-03, 01:06 PM	Tytalus, the friggin' template says you hain all benefits of increasing is size :nonono:
DeadEye 11-14-03, 01:13 PM	Originally posted by Tytalus You don't get any extra bonuses for size increase. It's no increase if you start off as large race. Yeah, but a human doesn't start as a large race. So they do increase in size, and according to this template, gain all the bonuses and penalties that entails. Hence, +12 strength in a level 2 character.
Tytalus 11-14-03, 01:19 PM	Originally posted by DeadEye Yeah, but a human doesn't start as a large race. So they do increase in size, and according to this template, gain all the bonuses and penalties that entails. Hence, +12 strength in a level 2 character. Hmm. You start as a half-ogre. That race is large, so no enlargement bonus. You don't start off as a human and become a half-ogre later. At least that's true for the Savage Species half-ogre race. It seems that this is about a half-ogre template that I'm not familiar with (Dragon?), so I respectfully withdraw my earlier comment.
Kenkai 11-14-03, 01:30 PM	Originally posted by draegl0th A Heavy Fullblade would a better damage outlet than a Dire Flail. If you decide to focus on charge, get a weapon with the Valorous Enchantmet, which doubles charge damage. what book is that enchantment in?
goblinhero 11-14-03, 01:57 PM	I don't see why people just can't be happy with the SS half ogre instead of resorting to this template.
Part-Human2 11-15-03, 01:37 AM	Do you think an extra +1 LA would be appropriate for the Size increase bonuses? SS claims +1 LA is appropriate not for the stat increase but because of the Reach increase.
draegl0th 11-15-03, 01:47 AM	Dragon IS considered official material, I don't see why he isn't allowed to incorporate the template in his build. Banning the template from your campaign, pretending that it never exist is fine, as long as you keep to yourself. Making personal attacks because someone used official material, however, is not. Try to be at least constructive.
DeadEye 11-15-03, 10:54 AM	At no point was I attacking Walach personally. I commented on the template, and gave my impression of it as 'hideous uber-cheese' and 'beyond munchkin and into idiotic'. As for 'not allowing the template in his build', my personal opinion has zero effect on whether he uses the template in his build or not. No personal attacks involved whatsoever. Just wanted to clear that up. And this has nothing to do with the topic, so let's please drop it. And my constructive comment is to politely suggest the SS Half-Ogre as a more balanced template choice, that, despite not having as high a Str modifier, will most likely not get your DM offside.
MoogleEmpMog 11-15-03, 01:40 PM	I would strongly, strongly advise against trying to get the Dragon Half-Ogre template with its size increase bonuses to fly with you DM. It's the sort of thing that just encourages DMs to not allow you anything from Dragon or even to severly nerf your other builds. Accept the Savage Species half-ogre, use the Dragon half-ogre template without the size increase stat bonuses to make half-ogre half-non-human characters and less ogrish half-ogres, and you can still have monstrously high Strength. You'll never actually need +12 Str. Heck, even +6 is more than I've ever seen needed, especially at lower levels.