Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caelic 06-04-06, 04:09 PM	Just for grins, I thought I'd dedicate a thread to those things which are just SO ridiculously good that the first time you saw them, you asked yourself, "How could they NOT have realized how powerful this was going to be?" I'm not talking about the spells or feats which had unexpected applications, or which are hugely powerful if you interpret them a certain way; I'm taking about the ones which are just plain powerful, OBVIOUSLY powerful, and yet still got put in. My first nomination: Greater Mighty Whallop. How could they possibly have not thought that this spell would lead to a massive increase in damage for every bludgeoning weapon wielder out there?
Tempest Stormwind 06-04-06, 04:15 PM	I submit nearly the entire Spell Compendium. Especially when taken in the context that those spells originally existed in.
Xaktsaroth 06-04-06, 04:23 PM	Frenized Berserker. Basically, infinite hit points for a melee type? 0_o.
ck2001wendt 06-04-06, 04:27 PM	-Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell. No XP Wish? Excuse me? -3.0 Incantatrix...a mess of MM feats AND Immunity to Death Effects?
creepy drifter 06-04-06, 04:32 PM	Spellguard of Silverymoon PrC in the PGtF Read the Selective Spell ability. Especially the parts about "affected normally" or "affected by the spell". You can technically use Selective Spell to make you and your comrades immune to your own magic walls. Like Wall of Iron. Talk about nuts. They really needed a better editor or verbiage descriptions in getting this class ability to cover specific usage.
TinManFan 06-04-06, 04:42 PM	They did the same with good and evil in the BoED/VD (<--VD hehehehe). Change the spell so good/evil people aren't damaged/impeded in any way. Walk through your blade barriers and get an illusionist w/ a good bluff score to say loudly "What a mighty fine illusion that is Bill!" Watch baddies trip over themselves running into the swords. Apacolypse form the Sky. WHy? Well say you have an artifact that will destroy you in a month. Cast the spell in some deserted demiplane and the artifact evaporates as the spell is cast. Vecna's a righty for all eternity.
smrtgmp 06-04-06, 04:45 PM	I submit nearly the entire Spell Compendium.Hyperbolize much?
necrosnoop110 06-04-06, 04:53 PM	3.0 Hide Life spell 3.0 Blindsight spell Forestfold spell The whole Polymorph/Polymorph Other/Shapechange chain 3.0, 3.5, and the innumerable errata Divine Metamagic feat & Nightstick magic item 3.0 Psionics Handbook 3.0 Savage Species (Ghaele Progression, Feral Template, & Anything Anthropomorphic) The whole melee combatants vs. spellcaster imbalance Druids :D Oh and let us not forget Dungeons & Dragons the movie :censored:
Pinky's brain 06-04-06, 04:56 PM	There's just so much ... so lets stick with core ... Druid. Polymorph tree. Fire Seeds. Shrink item. Gate (the combination with planeshift isn't rocket science). Spellstoring (the combination with quickdraw isn't rocket science). Life-drinker. Dust of Sneezing and Choking.
Sir Gummibaerchen 06-04-06, 05:03 PM	I second most of the Spell Compendium. Throw in Celerity/Synchronity, Divine Metamagic and the Artificer.
NineInchNall 06-04-06, 05:08 PM	Divine Metamagic wraithstrike - or any of the swift action spells whose only limiting factor is 1 round duration nightsticks Dweomerkeeper Zodars Artificers Sarrukhs divine power - I thought arcane spells were supposed to be better at combat stuff. Hmm? The Spell Compendium's versions of the metabreath spells, now persistable for your pleasure. Improved Energy Drain Doomspeak ... I'm missing a lot. Oh, yeah. And psionics.
Mordenkainen's Evil Twin 06-04-06, 05:10 PM	The Celerity spells from PHBII Anticipatory Strike from RoD - Get a full round as an immediate action. Time Stop - Get those extra 5 rounds going when you cast Celerity. Initiate of the Seven Fold Viel - Stop just about anything from touching you and the rest of your party as an immediate action. Maze - Send that pesky _______ away for a few rounds. Artificer... Divine Metamagic... Ring of Spell Battle... Mordenkainen's Magic Disjunction... Allowing Effigies a limitless amount of templets... Starmantle Cloak... Mostly all of the FR books... Necropolitans... End of Strife... Mind Blank... Triple Mask... Enveloping Cacoon... Craft Contingent Spell... Others pending...
Eshu 06-04-06, 05:37 PM	mystic theurge
Xeraph 06-04-06, 05:38 PM	HeHe! *Shakes head* Artificer. What was the idea here? Lets make a guy that does everything better than everyone else. AND give him spare XP to smash the game with. How about the pre PHB 2 Fighter? What sup with that? Skip: Lets make a Class that sucks from 5th level to 20th level? Noonan: Yeah Skip, thats freaking great! Ooh ooh and lets make a comparable other melee class, Barbarian, thats much better! Monte: Hey Skip, dont make a Fighter class, we already made that, its called a Druid. Skip: But me and Noon just used, like, a whole hour to make this Fighter class Monte! Dammit man! Monte: Argh, alright alright. No panic people! Lets hope nobody notices...
FeanorCursed 06-04-06, 05:49 PM	Shievering Touch. Lvl 3 spell that 3d6 dex damage, no save, no spell resistence.
tsuyoshikentsu 06-04-06, 05:51 PM	WHY has no one mentioned Iaijutsu MAster yet?
Quenditar 06-04-06, 06:01 PM	Or Mineral Warrior. DR 8/adamantine at LA +1?
Timlagor 06-04-06, 06:16 PM	I'll try to cover some of the ones that haven't been mentioned. Ur Priest (They must have realised that high level Spells are powerful by then!) Holy Word Sculpt Spell I7V (find a spell that matches the 7th level ability?) Massive Damage + Auto-fail saves Mass Resist Energy (THIRD level!!!) Damage tables as used by Hulking Hurler (...actually I've stopped being surprised by people's inability to have the slightest idea about mathematics) Spikes (the Original) Stacking Spikes + GMW +Brambles The Druid one they fixed that fires the needles for massive cumulative penalties against big enemies. Grey Elves (the only 0LA +2Mental Attribute Race I know of -I'm sure there are some in Setting specific books though...) Able Learner (did they forget they'd used skill lists and ranks as part of the balancing process?) Ray of Dizzyness Pun-Pun's trick (forget what that ability is called) Hive Mind (I haven't seen the book that came from but it seems to me it was a pretty obvious exploitation) Aside: They really should have managed to get Prismatic Ray right the second (or more?) time around. Artificer is ok if you can control the gold.
Zendu 06-04-06, 07:56 PM	3.0 harm warlocks
djinni 06-04-06, 08:30 PM	nothing I've seen posted is so uber powered that it shouldn't exist...come on people there has to be something out there...
Esponer 06-04-06, 08:35 PM	nothing I've seen posted is so uber powered that it shouldn't exist...come on people there has to be something out there... Manipulate Form.
Craig C. 06-04-06, 08:54 PM	nothing I've seen posted is so uber powered that it shouldn't exist...come on people there has to be something out there...True. A lot of stuff mentioned so far is hype. But there are some valid points here. Dweomerkeeper, SoS's Selective Spell, a few of the spells, etc. To note, the initial version of Quill Blast fell into this category. Thankfully, a subsequent published version "fixed" the spell.
Count_Rugen 06-04-06, 09:06 PM	mystic theurge I've always been of the opinion that Mystic Theurge's suck. How are they overpowered?
Pinky's brain 06-04-06, 09:14 PM	nothing I've seen posted is so uber powered that it shouldn't exist...come on people there has to be something out there...Just what kind of campaigns do you play in? Every enemy goes down in 1 round, and either there is no challenge or if there is a challenge there is a 50/50 chance of dying every encounter? Cause that is what is going to happen if you use even a fraction of the stuff in this thread ...
DisposableHero_ 06-04-06, 09:27 PM	Oh, yeah. And psionics.Some of us can take a joke :P Edit: Man.... 4 whole hours, my anti-psionic post sense is slipping...
FiestFan 06-04-06, 09:29 PM	Power Word: Pain 3.0 Templar - just in case your Cleric needed to do a bit more damage. Mindbender - 1 level to read minds and never be surprised? Yes, please.
NineInchNall 06-04-06, 09:31 PM	Some of us can take a joke :P Edit: Man.... 4 whole hours, my anti-psionic post sense is slipping... :heehee :rofl: Maybe it doesn't work on insincere digs against psionics?
Fargren 06-04-06, 09:40 PM	Anarchic Initiate Alienist Almost any class with full casting progresion Persist Spell Fifth level of Invisible Blade(feint as a free action, do it untill you succed...) Complete Psionic(after reading it my reaction was "What Were they thinking?")
AZNsupermarket 06-04-06, 09:43 PM	"lesser" aasimars "lesser" tieflings and I know this has been said before, but druids - plain too powerful
Zaxter 06-04-06, 09:45 PM	Fifth level of Invisible Blade(feint as a free action, do it untill you succed...) Actually, that was fixed in the errata. You can only feint once per round now.
necrosnoop110 06-04-06, 09:46 PM	Mindbender - 1 level to read minds and never be surprised? Yes, please. Never be surprised? How's that work? Peace, AJ
Kresalak 06-04-06, 10:19 PM	One level and a feat, actually. Mindsight from Lords of Madness, the Tsochar section.
deathwishjoe 06-04-06, 11:23 PM	3.0 harm I dont see what the trouble was it wasnt that broken. all it needed was a SR and it would have been just fine. its essentially a save or die spell and I believe the death domain had a save or die spell one level lower the harm was. they over nerfed it in 3.0. warlocks show me one warlock whos broken and I'll show you one of the classic arcane spell caster that will p0wn his *****. warlocks are not broken in the slightest and I feel that due to the limitations of what invocations they have to choose from might even be a little underpowered. sure he can do whatever it is that he does all day long but what he does isnt that good. damage dealing with his eldritch blast is easily reach and surpased with arcane spell casters, melee characters and rogue types. his other invocations just are that good to warrant the nerf stick at all. honestly I love the class but have been hesitant to play it as theres not much you can do to easily optimize it. Mindbender - 1 level to read minds and never be surprised? Yes, please. now I thought you could communicate telepathically but that reading minds was a different ability. it like you could tell someone something w/o actually talking but they couldnt communicate back to you in anyway. never be surprised it a good thing. although a smart DM can still surprise you by having a person who you thought was safe betray you or attack you in a public place.
RDSnavley 06-04-06, 11:59 PM	I'm surprised no one here has said the Duskblade out of the PHB II yet. Full armor , all shields but tower, plus simple and martial weapons. Full BAB progression. Two good saves No spellcasting failure for medium armor by 4th. Buy some mithril heavy armor and now your a walking spellcasting tank. Then there are the touch spells through the blade all day long with the twice the amount of spell slots given. The spell list is "restrictive" but you've some nasty damage range spell in there and as I said, twice the mages spell slots to use them. Quickcasting, don't want to forget that for free too. I actually read on another board where someone defended the class as balanced because they got no more feats than any other class. I think someone forgot the Sorcerer gets none and the Wizard gets what, three extra feats, four counting Scribe. RDS
Valanthe 06-05-06, 12:14 AM	I'm surprised no one here has said the Duskblade out of the PHB II yet. Full armor , all shields but tower, plus simple and martial weapons. Full BAB progression. Two good saves No spellcasting failure for medium armor by 4th. Buy some mithril heavy armor and now your a walking spellcasting tank. Then there are the touch spells through the blade all day long with the twice the amount of spell slots given. The spell list is "restrictive" but you've some nasty damage range spell in there and as I said, twice the mages spell slots to use them. Quickcasting, don't want to forget that for free too. I actually read on another board where someone defended the class as balanced because they got no more feats than any other class. I think someone forgot the Sorcerer gets none and the Wizard gets what, three extra feats, four counting Scribe. RDS If that's the only reason he can give for it to be balanced, I'd gladly trade my bonus feats on Wizard to get full BAB and two good saves.
Subedei 06-05-06, 12:19 AM	And despite all that, somehow a wizard is still capable of conjuring a silver plate to hand them their ass on. Having lots of class features does not make you strong, having effective class features makes you strong. Duskblades are tough but try playtesting them against a well built arcane or psionic gish both against common enemies and against each other. I'm confident the gish will trump them easily, especially considering the Duskblade can't really multiclass until 13th level. At the very least the Duskblade will have one weak save, and the others lower than those of a gish - a weakness the gish will use to pummel them into the ground then teleport them out of it for the purpose of continued pummeling.
Eyeless Blond 06-05-06, 01:15 AM	Don't forget the duskblade's spell list is almost entirely limited to direct damage spells, which are widely acknoleged to be a waste of time without incantrix, lots of metamagic and Arcane Thesis. They have very few buffs, little in the way of battlefield control, few good area spells. Duskblades are the monks of the arcane fighter/mage world: they have lots of features that look great on paper, but most of those features add up to zero.
PhoenixInferno 06-05-06, 02:16 AM	Dweomerkeeper's (Complete Divine's web enhancement) Supernatural Spell crappy PrCs Wraithstrike (the damn thing should say the effect discharges at the end of the turn, like Hunter's Mercy.)
tsuyoshikentsu 06-05-06, 02:30 AM	AlienistYou're going to have to explain this one.
X-Codes 06-05-06, 02:41 AM	Duskblade (somehow a semi-caster can cast 5 spells a round without a single feat...) Druid... again. Divine Power Heroics Vow of Chastity Vow of Poverty Spellfire Wielder (and Warlock) Epic Spellcasting, Epic Leadership, and Legendary Leader. (Insert Epic Prestige Class here... they ALL suck!) Effigy template Frenzied Berserker Vigilante CWar Samurai Chameleon Retraining rules And the Serpent Kingdoms Edition: Venomfire spell Manyfang Dagger Tren (Alter Self > Barkskin) Sarrukh (Alter Self > Lord Ao) And the Savage Species Edition: Anthropomorphic Creature template Tauric Creature template Feral Creature template Assume Supernatural Ability Finally, the Magic Items on the Cheap Edition: Artificier... 'nuff said.
Slyver 06-05-06, 02:49 AM	Well, it's late and I'm tired so this is a short list of the things that caused the exact reaction the OP mentioned the first time I saw it. Nightsticks aka Divine metamagic batteries (what were they thinking?) Wraithstrike Dweomerkeeper Craven (11 levels of rogue sneak attack in one feat? Yes Please!!) CW Samurai (My most hated class ever. What a piece of shiznizzle, on one of my most favorite themes.) Polymorph/Shapechange. I'm glad they nerfed it to oblivion in PHBII despite (read "because") of the fact it was one of my favorite things in the game. The entire game had to be balanced around one spell. Nothing else on any list I've read so far even comes close to this. Able Learner being restricted to human only. The feat is fine. It is one of my favorites and is in no way unbalancing to a general campain, but it took one of the most used races for optimization and made them the required race for many builds. This one should simply be a general feat. I don't know what they were thinking. Chameleon floating feat. A great idea and a reasonably balanced feat if you stick with the class for all 10 levels. But with only needing to take 2 levels to get it, it becomes an easy tool for major breakage. Artificer... Jesus Christ! Slyver
GDarius 06-05-06, 02:58 AM	Metamagic Item infusion Power Surge infusion Multispell Divine Metamagic (Also insert any ability which gives you 'free' metamagic uses.) Runecaster Unfettered Heroism + Wandsurge (this one totally should have been caught) Dweomerkeeper Heir of Syberis (the errata somewhat fixed it) Pre-Eratta Shapeshift (the one that let you change into a form of your CL x 2, to a max of 50. Anyone with an Epic Handbook could break the hell out of it.) That's about it IMO. I've never had problems with Frenzied Berserkers or Warlocks, mainly 'cause my players know I can use them too. Ditto Artificers. I'm surprised more people don't have a problem with Multispell, though I guess it is eclipsed by epic magic...
Maat_Mons 06-05-06, 03:25 AM	Insert Epic Prestige Class here... they ALL suck! I wouldn't say they all suck. Void Incarnate seems worthwhile to me. You gain the equivalent of Improved Evasion for all saving throws and immunity to force effects. If you have DMs like mine who never bother to make your enemies immune to mind-affecting effects, all of your opponents will be flat-footed every round. I'm not saying it's great, just that it's a passable epic class. As for the original topic, I never understood how the Thought Bottle seemed like a good idea.
X-Codes 06-05-06, 03:26 AM	That's about it IMO. I've never had problems with Frenzied Berserkers or Warlocks, mainly 'cause my players know I can use them too. Ditto Artificers. I'm surprised more people don't have a problem with Multispell, though I guess it is eclipsed by epic magic... Hey, I think Multispell is cool. I have to give a big WTF?! to the Invisible Blade Errata. Why is it a free action that can only be used once a round? Didn't Wizards make the Swift Action mechanic just to simplify that?
kilroo 06-05-06, 03:41 AM	I'm surprised no one here has said the Duskblade out of the PHB II yet. Full armor , all shields but tower, plus simple and martial weapons. I realize this doesn't really invalidate your point, but...did they errata this already? When I read it, Duskblade didn't get simple weapons. I remember distinctly because I thought it was hilarious. I have to give a big WTF?! to the Invisible Blade Errata. Why is it a free action that can only be used once a round? Didn't Wizards make the Swift Action mechanic just to simplify that? Well, sorta. I don't know if this is why they did what they did, but remember you only get one Swift Action per round, period. It wouldn't be beyond the bounds of reason to believe that they wanted to let you feint more quickly than a move action, and only be able to do it once per round, but not have it keep you from (for example) casting a quickened spell in the same round. Perhaps more accurately...I can't think of any other remotely logical reason, so I choose to believe they wanted to limit you to doing it once without making it something you had to choose over other things they'd made into Swift Actions.
Arcanum_and_Obscura 06-05-06, 05:05 AM	Ghost Shroud, a.k.a. the monk's delight. Magic item in Libris Mortis.
Eshu 06-05-06, 05:11 AM	Originally Posted by Count_Rugen I've always been of the opinion that Mystic Theurge's suck. How are they overpowered? cause he gets 9th level spells as a cleric and as a wizard at level 19
LouSapphire 06-05-06, 05:23 AM	DwemeorKeeper (sp??) Divine Minion Template Night Sticks Wraithstrike Natural Spell Sycnhronicity BOVD Sacrifice Mechanics Gestalt w/Monster Advancement (granted this is up to DM's but it's possible) Dual Class Progressions Feats Wraithstrike Frozen Wild Shape (simple reason being it's easy to get this feat past a DM) Sandshaper (25 odd spells added to known spell list for 1 lvl in a class? yes please...) Weapons of Legacy. In particular the ability to make your own. And finally Wraithstrike. Umm, yea, that's the main ones that spring to mind.
_J_ 06-05-06, 05:23 AM	cause he gets 9th level spells as a cleric and as a wizard at level 19 No, it's impossible to get 9th level cleric and wizard spells before epic without any shananigans, Mystic theurge is only 10 levels long. And if it were 14 levels long, you still wouldn't get 9th level spells before level 20. And Full casting in one class beats non-full casting in two classes. It's a lot better to get 9th level cleric or wizard spells at level 17 than both at level 19, let alone at level 20.
Kuroi Kenshi 06-05-06, 06:58 AM	The maugrym (sp) creature from Monsters of Faerun - 6HD creature that can cast Shapechange as a lv20 sorceror. What? It's CR 6, too, IIRC. Pretty much any full caster progression arcane, divine, or psionic PrC that also comes chock full of great class abilities. And if mystic theurge is overpowered, then what are the Arcane Hierophant and the True Necromancer? I'd say those might make this list, but the plain jane MT? No way.
koth 06-05-06, 08:38 AM	Yeah, Anthropomorphic creatures are my one. Mainly the Anthro-version of the giant squid. Having the big boosts to stats, the large size and the, and this is the deal breaker, 8 freakin' arms! is so very wrong. 8 arms can be abused horribly in combat builds. So very horribly. Like the rogue that can hit for more than a thousand damage in a single round... And its cost? 3 hit dice and 1 level adjustment. That's ECL 4, for something that should be waaaay higher.
NineInchNall 06-05-06, 11:38 AM	Duskblade (somehow a semi-caster can cast 5 spells a round without a single feat...) I think you're going to have to explain that one. :confused:
xanadu 06-05-06, 11:39 AM	craven feat divine metamagic + nightsticks [both are tolerable seperate]
jameswilliamogle 06-05-06, 12:22 PM	I don't think the feats / effects that reduce the cost of metamagic are overpowered at all; the thing that makes them overpowered is Persistant Spell. That being said, I think the following are overpowered (but only broken in a "normal" campaign): Greenbound Summoning (without real prereq's; somewhat powerful) Persistant Spell (should only be allowed to be placed on L3 and lower spells; pretty powerful edit: just needs removed completely - Lower cost Metamagic isn't that unbalancing in general imo: a character that spends 2 feats or 5 levels of a prc to get use of one effect should be freakin' good at that effect) pre-errata 3.5 polymorph (pretty powerful) fast-track spellcasting prc's (ur, beholder mage,not favored soul, though; more powerful than above when conjoined w/ theurge-classes) Dweomerkeeper's Super-Spell (when conjoined w/ Wish; ridiculously powerful) (I can't believe someone mentioned Alienist, lol)
The_Monkey_King 06-05-06, 12:29 PM	I think you're going to have to explain that one. :confused: At lvl 13 they can channel a touch spell through their melee attacks and everything they hit gets affected by the spell. So IF your duskblade has whirlwind, and IF he somehow gets surrounded, then yes, he can go lay the smack. Of couse if he's a smart duskblade, its very much worse than that since he'll be dumping a top level spell into arcane strike as well. But none of that is unbalancing. In fact none of a lot of this is unbalancing. Divine metamagic by itself isn't really unbalancing. In order to get funky with it you'd have to burn lots of feats, all of which could be undone with a single targeted dispell. Sure, you could get nightsticks and it gets broken, but if your DM is giving you multiple nightsticks, the problem isn't divine metamagic, is it? Warlock? Please. Its a fun flavorfull class that by 10th level the player realizes that they really aren't ever going to get better while the Wizard or Sorceror next to them is just starting to push down the pedal. Wraithstrike might be, but the truth is that its only bad in a heavily optimized high level build and by then most attacks will hit anyways. Come to think of it, I wonder if our view of the game isn't a bit skewed? Hanging out on the optimization boards changes how most of us think about the game I think. I come here because its the only place I know of to have serious discussions about the game without hearing about *adopts high nasaly voice* "One time, my lvl 54 fighter/high wizard of Endor killed tiamat with a toothpick and then the King gave him 47 virgins, but that wasn't enough to I made the King my footstool and ate grapes off of him."
Sir Gummibaerchen 06-05-06, 12:37 PM	I don't think the feats / effects that reduce the cost of metamagic are overpowered at all; the thing that makes them overpowered is Persistant Spell. That being said, I think the following are overpowered (but only broken in a "normal" campaign): I couldn't disagree more. You say Persistent schould be placed on spell levels 1-3. Look what Persistent does when you have no way to ignore the meta-increases: You can only place Persistent on spell levels 1-3. What a coincidence!
NineInchNall 06-05-06, 01:04 PM	At lvl 13 they can channel a touch spell through their melee attacks and everything they hit gets affected by the spell. So IF your duskblade has whirlwind, and IF he somehow gets surrounded, then yes, he can go lay the smack. Of couse if he's a smart duskblade, its very much worse than that since he'll be dumping a top level spell into arcane strike as well. Now, that's not what he said. He said that the Duskblade can cast five spells per round without burning a feat. Having a spell affect multiple targets is not the same thing.
NineInchNall 06-05-06, 01:06 PM	I couldn't disagree more. You say Persistent schould be placed on spell levels 1-3. Look what Persistent does when you have no way to ignore the meta-increases: You can only place Persistent on spell levels 1-3. What a coincidence! Furthermore, metamagic is balanced primarily because it increases the slot level of the affected spell. If we remove the thing that makes metamagic balanced, then, um ...
jameswilliamogle 06-05-06, 01:13 PM	It's an opinion thread. Just giving my opinion.
catharz 06-05-06, 01:49 PM	There is a lot of obviously powerful stuff in the game. If there weren't, I'm fairly certain that most players would get annoyed that their characters didn't seem to be getting anywhere as they leveled. That said, a lot of you are posting stuff which might seem powerful but is actually weak. And things which aren't obviously powerful at all unless you're thinking carefully about how to exploit them. And things which aren't overpowered at all alone, but require some cheesy combo. Which seems to be missing the point completely. In fact, the only ones I've noticed that really qualify are Metamagic Infusion/Divine Metamagic (Metamagic'd spells are inherently worse then level-apropriate ones), the druid, Greenbound Summoning (Summon Monster/Nature's Ally type spells are usually weak for their level without some exploitation), and Wraithstrike (Which empowers a usually weak archtype). Even Divine Power isn't that overly good these days. It's a bad concept, but not powerful unless you're already using 'free' metamagic. Seriously folks, this is D&D. If you've got a problem with the mystic theurge being "powerful," play Clue. And don't play Mrs. White, I don't want to hear anyone complain about how overpowered Mr. Mustard is compared to her.
Alratan 06-05-06, 02:36 PM	I have to put a vote in here for Temporal Reiteration, a power immeditaely broken given the prior existance of the metamind, and only compounded by the ardent and Practiced Manifester feat in the same book.
NineInchNall 06-05-06, 05:14 PM	Even Divine Power isn't that overly good these days. It's a bad concept, but not powerful unless you're already using 'free' metamagic. Seriously folks, this is D&D. If you've got a problem with the mystic theurge being "powerful," play Clue. And don't play Mrs. White, I don't want to hear anyone complain about how overpowered Mr. Mustard is compared to her. My problem with divine power is that it's better than tenser's. *shrug* It and other spells of its relative power are reasons the Cleric is a generally stronger class than the Wizard or Sorcerer.
catharz 06-05-06, 05:55 PM	My problem with divine power is that it's better than tenser's. *shrug* It and other spells of its relative power are reasons the Cleric is a generally stronger class than the Wizard or Sorcerer. Cleric is generally a stronger class than Wizard or Sorcerer because it gives two good saves, medium BAB, d8 HD, automagic knowledge of all spells on the class list, armor proficiency/use, and more spells per day. Divine power is way better than Transformation, but remember that Transformation is so lame that even melee wizards don't use it.
NineInchNall 06-05-06, 06:28 PM	'Tis true. The point was that the Cleric spell list, due to spells like divine power/righteous might and Domain access, is not inferior enough (if at all) to the Sor/Wiz spell list for the Cleric to be balanced while having all those other class features that you mention.
necrosnoop110 06-05-06, 08:06 PM	Seriously folks, this is D&D. If you've got a problem with the mystic theurge being "powerful," play Clue. And don't play Mrs. White, I don't want to hear anyone complain about how overpowered Mr. Mustard is compared to her. :rofl:
necrosnoop110 06-05-06, 08:06 PM	x2 post :censored:
DarthDave 06-05-06, 08:18 PM	The Vow of Poverty feats at 1st level, plus their FREE feats thereafter are insane!
The_Monkey_King 06-05-06, 09:00 PM	Now, that's not what he said. He said that the Duskblade can cast five spells per round without burning a feat. Having a spell affect multiple targets is not the same thing. I guess my point was that that was what a Duskblade COULD do, I have no idea how he thinks he can cast 5 spells in a single round.
PhoenixInferno 06-05-06, 09:09 PM	The Vow of Poverty feats at 1st level, plus their FREE feats thereafter are insane!A single character will find only about 3 useful feats out of all Exalted feats. The rest is either trash, or can't be used. Vow of Poverty is not broken, except maybe at low levels.
necrosnoop110 06-05-06, 11:10 PM	Divine power is way better than Transformation, but remember that Transformation is so lame that even melee wizards don't use it. Terrible Transformation Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, M, F, XP Casting Time: 1 round Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round/level You become a virtual fighting machine— stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. Your mind-set changes so that you relish combat and you can’t cast spells, even from magic items. You gain a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +2 natural armor bonus to AC, a +2 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons (but see below). Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks). You lose your spellcasting ability, including your ability to use spell activation or spell completion magic items, just as if the spells were no longer on your class list. You also lose your ability to speak or move more than 5’ per round. All attacks must be made using one of three dining utensils: fork (1d4 P), spoon (1d2 B), or napkin (which acts in all ways like a net but can only entangle creatures smaller than fine size). In addition, you can perform a special maneuver (using the fork only) whereby you can automatically sunder your own armor (if any) as a free action. Note: robes count as armor for the purposes of this special auto-sunder maneuver. Material Component: A scroll of Wish, which you read (and whose effects are subsumed by the spell effects). Arcane Focus: A previously sundered simple or martial magical weapon. XP Cost: 9,000 XP.
catharz 06-06-06, 12:22 AM	Terrible Transformation I didn't think it could get worse, but it did! :eek: In addition, you can perform a special maneuver (using the fork only) whereby you can automatically sunder your own armor (if any) as a free action. Ah, the special 'stabbing yourself in the foot' maneuver, an application of the Raistlin's Reiterated Redundancy which manifests as a side effect of the Wish burning. Burn the Wish! Burn the Wish!
pvrhye 06-06-06, 04:28 AM	Amulet of Retribution from the BoED. Take half of all melee damage and toss the rest onto your attacker... no save or anything... and a +1 sacred bonus to AC to boot all for the reasonable price of 64000 (as best I can remember). Maybe if it were 6,400,00... EDIT: My problem with divine power is that it's better than tenser's. *shrug* It and other spells of its relative power are reasons the Cleric is a generally stronger class than the Wizard or Sorcerer. Divine power does more because a cleric has less to gain since they already have passable BAB.
Sir Gummibaerchen 06-06-06, 12:35 PM	The retributive amulet costs 56k, the sacred bonus to ac is +2. Add in the starmantle cloak from the same book, which halves damage again on a DC 15 reflex save. A bit more expensive, but you are extrmely well defended.
Otto the Bugbear 06-06-06, 12:45 PM	Just for grins, I thought I'd dedicate a thread to those things which are just SO ridiculously good that the first time you saw them, you asked yourself, "How could they NOT have realized how powerful this was going to be?" Marsupials They scare me. 'Cause they're fast.
Ayanami 06-06-06, 01:14 PM	Incantrix. The whole class. Admittedly the first version was worse, but the revised come with its own set of real beauties. I mean.. 4 Bonus Metamagic Feats Free metamagic twice a day Improved Metamagic!! And the big sign that says Team Player as you wander around and persist all those Mass spells for your party.
Basmodian 06-06-06, 01:44 PM	I miss the 2ed combo of Mord's Disjunction (wiz) and the alternate reality (Cleric) spell... you don't like the effiect of the Disjunction, rewind and roll again... My Buddy and i toppled many powerful dudes using that. It was really the AR spell that was way too good. i THOUGHT vOW OF pOVERTY and the Monk class were an instant match...
Bladenite78 06-06-06, 01:49 PM	I find nothing all that overpowering in the DnD 3.5 system. I think that something being overpowered is little more than an objective opinion from someone who doesnt want to change their game accordingly. Im sure in real life that those who dont have technology are somewhat offended by those of us who do and seem to have it easy, but guess what, that's the way it is. Unfortunately your game of DnD is not locked into a quagmire of static temporal displacement and therefore you must grow and change with it. The great equalizer is that it is available to everyone however only few earn the right to have "it" whatever "it" is.
Elder_Kin 06-06-06, 01:51 PM	3.0e Paragon Template (No LA) Especially nasy with lycanthropes Psudonatural Template (No LA) 3.5e Feral template
Wolfman1987 06-06-06, 03:17 PM	It doesn't stand up to most of the stuff you guys are listing here, but I think the warshaper is very broken. +4 str, +4 con, fast healing 2, immunity to criticals, and stunning, increased damage on all your natural weapons and an additional natural weapon in I think 3 levels.
pvrhye 06-06-06, 03:47 PM	I find nothing all that overpowering in the DnD 3.5 system. I think that something being overpowered is little more than an objective opinion from someone who doesnt want to change their game accordingly. Im sure in real life that those who dont have technology are somewhat offended by those of us who do and seem to have it easy, but guess what, that's the way it is. Unfortunately your game of DnD is not locked into a quagmire of static temporal displacement and therefore you must grow and change with it. The great equalizer is that it is available to everyone however only few earn the right to have "it" whatever "it" is. Then clearly we have a different definition of overpowered. I'd say in D&D overpowered would be.. Any enitity, be it object or ability, that by virtue of its potecy devalues the majority of entities of equal resource expenditure. Said plainly. If something is so good that it makes most other choices invalid, it is overpowered.
ThePo 06-06-06, 04:25 PM	Mighty Wallop and Mighty Wallop, Greater? Where are these please and thank you.
Subedei 06-06-06, 04:49 PM	I find nothing all that overpowering in the DnD 3.5 system. I think that something being overpowered is little more than an objective opinion from someone who doesnt want to change their game accordingly. Im sure in real life that those who dont have technology are somewhat offended by those of us who do and seem to have it easy, but guess what, that's the way it is. Unfortunately your game of DnD is not locked into a quagmire of static temporal displacement and therefore you must grow and change with it. The great equalizer is that it is available to everyone however only few earn the right to have "it" whatever "it" is. I dunno, last I heard the five anthropomorphic baleen whales in your group were a bit jealous of the Shadowcraft Mage. They should get with the times and realize it's stupid to play anything but a full spellcaster with free miracles. I estimate there are about five characters that are worth playing and maybe 15 different monsters that are capable of hurting the weaker four. Man do your games sound fun.
The_Monkey_King 06-06-06, 05:01 PM	Then clearly we have a different definition of overpowered. I'd say in D&D overpowered would be.. Any enitity, be it object or ability, that by virtue of its potecy devalues the majority of entities of equal resource expenditure. Said plainly. If something is so good that it makes most other choices invalid, it is overpowered. Arcane Hierophant is my contribution to this list. It makes MT laughable.
Subedei 06-06-06, 05:04 PM	Although I'm not so sure I agree with that. Making MT laughable doesn't make it overpowered, MT isn't a very good class to begin with, AH is only slightly better than it. Really, MT should be better, AH shouldn't be worse.
pvrhye 06-06-06, 05:12 PM	Yeah, in my opinion most of the doubly classes are barely playable. You give up potency for variety. The problem is, no matter how well you can cast spells and swing a sword, you generally can't do both in the same round. That's why the duskblade is infinitely better than say, the Eldritch knight. And a sorceror with that feat that gives him a domain's worth of divine spells will always be better than a mystic theurge. Also, the doubly classes are only 10 levels leaving you to fend for yourself for the other 10. Not to mention they how flagrant disregard for CO rules 1 and 4.
DarthDave 06-06-06, 06:41 PM	Wallops are new spells in the Races of the Dragon book.
Kuroi Kenshi 06-06-06, 06:57 PM	Making MT laughable doesn't make it overpowered, MT isn't a very good class to begin with, AH is only slightly better than it.I agree on the former two, but disagree on the latter detail. Let's see. AH has better HD, BAB, skill list, skill points/level, advances wildshape, advances animal companion while combining it with familiar INT and abilities, gets rid of the horrible familiar and exempts your new familiar/animal companion combination it from the XP cost if it dies, and removes ASF while wearing druid armor. The only thing that MT has over it is that you can get into MT at char level 7, instead of char level 8 (or char level 9 if you want wildshape advancement). That's it. The AH is just blatantly better in every other way. Oh, and MT lets you pick cleric or something else as your divine caster class, but for that there's True Necromancer. But that PrC is so good that they made it have 14 levels so you'd never have to taint your character with an underpowered PrC like the MT. Really, MT should be better, AH shouldn't be worse.Yeah, agree 100% there. The DMG "double" PrCs should at least be comparable in usefulness with sticking with 1 core class all the way, not being definitively inferior.
Fargren 06-06-06, 07:19 PM	Alienist You're going to have to explain this one. I know some people won't agree with em, but I blieve that the fact that it has requisites any arcane caster can meet, and loses absolutely nothing(not even his familiar improvement), and gains some really good abilities makes it really unbalances. The wisdom loss doesn't even hurts his saving throw, since he gets a bonus on all his saving throws for free.
Subedei 06-06-06, 07:23 PM	True Necromancer. But that PrC is so good that they made it have 14 levels so you'd never have to taint your character with an underpowered PrC like the MT Is this some kind of joke?
solbergb 06-06-06, 08:36 PM	Weapon capsule retainers. Lets stack +3 of enhancements on a weapon for about 400gp, including ways to buypass incorporeality and DR silver. Sign me up. Sure they only last a round (3 for silver/ghostblight). But if you have a few weapons and a few capsule retainers, you can keep it going an entire fight...assuming you have anyone left to kill after the first round. Yes, my monk shamelessly abuses these since he got access. Or he would, if his enemies were actually worthy of a supercharged flurry more often. I think I've actually needed to unload a full "capsule retainer" flurry only once since I got access, although I've used the ghostblight a little too. Yeah, I used spikes before it got nerfed too. When you have 5 attacks a round, you look for stuff that adds to damage. Another that jumped out at me with SC - Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. Now clerics can do everything a bard does in TWO rounds (haste+inspire courage3) to all melee in the party. Including of course, himself, all for the low cost of a L5 spell. Delay death is strong enough in the SC version that it is practically a "must have" for a L4 cleric slot, and its mere presence changes behavior.
Kresalak 06-06-06, 08:43 PM	Weapon capsule retainers. Lets stack +3 of enhancements on a weapon for about 400gp, including ways to buypass incorporeality and DR silver. Sign me up. Oil of Greater Magic Weapon gives you big enhancement bonuses, for hours at a time, for 3,000 at max for 20 hours of +5. You could also get an Oil of Silversheen or that spell that allows bypassing incorpereality, both of which would last much longer. The capsules give you lesser price at the cost of a lower duration.
slimgoodbody 06-06-06, 08:45 PM	I know some people won't agree with em, but I blieve that the fact that it has requisites any arcane caster can meet, and loses absolutely nothing(not even his familiar improvement), and gains some really good abilities makes it really unbalances. The wisdom loss doesn't even hurts his saving throw, since he gets a bonus on all his saving throws for free. Than what about the Loremaster? They land along the same lines of "there's really no reason for a wizard not to take it, since they practically fall face first into the requirements anyway." I think it's a bit of an overdiagnosis to say that they are too powerful. I've only ever seen one person play an Alienist ever. Same with Loremaster. My friend just started one in my game recently. And my friends play a crapload of wizards.
Elder_Kin 06-06-06, 08:52 PM	But that PrC is so good that they made it have 14 levels so you'd never have to taint your character with an underpowered PrC like the MT. No offense yet I, who used to be an ardent supporter of the class realize now that it blows. If you want RP and variety it's sweet, if you're going for pure op though, you'd better just shoot yourself in the head. Lose 5 caster levels before you go epic?!?! Think the descrate is sweet? All you have to do it persistify it and cast it on yourself. With the evil domain you get it as an extra spell. Necromantic prowess your bag? You can do better with other feats. Create undead you say? You can't even control your creations until much later. Double HD pool from animate dead? Go dread necromancer and have 300+ HD which is better than any other class. I love it to death but won't go down that path anymore. While I am an ardent believe that true necromancy is developped from the arcane and divine you'd be better off just making your own theurgic class, making the TN 10 instead of 14 levels, or just going mystic theurge. It's so sad that WoTC is so ascared of having a character who can cast both divine and arcane spells, that they make the ability to do so crippled in almost every situtation.
Kuroi Kenshi 06-06-06, 10:00 PM	Is this some kind of joke?No offense yet I, who used to be an ardent supporter of the class realize now that it blows. If you want RP and variety it's sweet, if you're going for pure op though, you'd better just shoot yourself in the head. Lose 5 caster levels before you go epic?!?! ...Hmm, I must've had a brainfart regarding that class. I haven't been able to look at it in a few months. I thought it was 2nd level spells each for entry, not 3rd level. I'll rescind what I said about TN :P
Subedei 06-06-06, 10:05 PM	Yeah, it's also easy to miss that they don't advance both spellcasting classes every level.
solbergb 06-06-06, 10:07 PM	Oil of Greater Magic Weapon gives you big enhancement bonuses, for hours at a time, for 3,000 at max for 20 hours of +5. You could also get an Oil of Silversheen or that spell that allows bypassing incorpereality, both of which would last much longer. The capsules give you lesser price at the cost of a lower duration. Yeah. But seriously. Fights last like 3 rounds. Capsules cost about 25gp/round of use. A level 6+ adventurer could have the equivalent of a frost/flame/shock weapon for every single fight of his career to the level of 20 and never miss the lost cash. GMW at least needs a friendly spellcaster...and it is "free" too, at least on one of his weapons, at most tables. Also you will never, ever, use a silver or ghost touch weapon again if you have access to these things. There just is no reason to permanently take a -1 damage on one of your weapons or to weaken a weapon by +1 when 500gp can take your best weapon and make it silver or ghost touch on demand (and have a slot left over to toss in a d6 elemental enhancement, just for grins. It can't be dispelled and won't expire (unlike that 3k oil of GMW, which if you guess wrong on when to use it, or get a dispel, you are out about 50 encounters worth of capsule retainers in cash). It sits quietly on your weapon until your character is challenged, then he taps the trigger and suddenly has a weapon that is effectively 50k in cash more valuable. So what if it only lasts 1 or 3 rounds? The enemy dies, just as if you had such a weapon. The cost is too low for what you get. If it took a std action to apply, then the cost would likely be too high, but it's a swift action, which is not something most warrior types use anyway. That's why it is included as overpowered. For reference, prior stuff like this was very expensive, like 300gp per dose in 3.0 for 1d6 fire, or you are looking at level 2 minute spells (sonic weapon) or level 3 hour spells (weapon of energy for ONE effect, not three), or a level 1 swift spell that must be in your head (flame blade) because many tables think stuff off wands or scrolls take a std action. Lets just take silversheen. 250gp, 1 hour duration It wasn't used much, unless you're attacking the "tower of the wererats" or something similar. Mostly when you need silver, you did NOT know ahead of time that it was needed. Those ordinary looking enemies turn out to be lycanthropes or vampires or weak devils in disguise. You can have an expensive consumable or you can cough up 20gp to 180gp to make a permanent weapon. Most took the latter option, because it is better to have a weapon in your hand now than one a round from now. Now that dynamic is pretty much gone, because for 150gp you can pick a weapon, put a capsule retainer on it plus quicksilver and be prepared for all encounters where you suddenly need silver...and only spend 50gp per fight and only when it comes up (if it isn't over in 3 rounds of you hacking, an hour duration isn't likely to help much more...and you can pay that same std action you'd use for silversheen to get another couple rounds of swinging in, so only if the fight extends past 6 rounds does silversheen put you ahead). The situation with ghost touch vs ghostblight is even more extreme, although ghostoil has been around a while, and in a campaign with ghostoil, the tradeoff is "more costlier ghostblight+retainer for faster action" which actually looks pretty ok. Assuming ghostoil made sense. Which it doesn't, from a cosmologicial standpoint. (incorporeals are supposed to be immune to anything nonmagic. How exactly is an alchemical substance hurting them anyway? Holy water involves a divine spell as part of its manufacture, ghostblight/oil doesn't have that excuse). Anyway - end of rant. The fact remains that any campaign which allows capsule retainers will suddenly have all the fighter types lining up around the block to buy the retainers and some subset of the capsules is enough to show why it's out of whack.
Kuroi Kenshi 06-06-06, 10:14 PM	Yeah, it's also easy to miss that they don't advance both spellcasting classes every level.Hey, my memory isn't perfect. Cut the sarcasm.
Subedei 06-06-06, 10:18 PM	I wasn't being sarcastic. I didn't notice that for the longest time, until someone pointed it out, actually. I just kind of glossed over the table once and left it at that.
Kuroi Kenshi 06-06-06, 10:21 PM	Ah, sorry about that.
widow 06-06-06, 11:24 PM	Where can these wonderous capsule retainers be found? So far I think alot of stuff has been covered that needs to be mentioned on this thread. I would like to add the PHBII web enchancement to the list with all the xp transfer devices for crafting. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a You never need craft again. Just take the leadership feat and an artificer cohort. For a 200gp item or a level 1 spell you can supply him with all the xp he needs from your total. The artificer gets that +2 to his crafting level which is handy since he is 2 levels lower than you. He can craft anything you can and more, plus he does it faster, cheaper, and with less xp and has almost all the feats for free. Each level he also gets bonus xp to pad it further. Even without leadership, the wizard can supply the whole party with equipment for cheap spending their xp. Of course we can just add the leadership feat to the list as well without the above abuse.
Subedei 06-06-06, 11:35 PM	Thought Bottle. Seriously, how can you not abuse this?
elfink 06-07-06, 12:22 AM	Put me down for the Thought Bottle too. The first time I looked at it I thought that it would either be useless or hideously broken; either way it shouldn't have been printed. I personally think metamagic rods were unneeded. Why did they want to make pure casters even better again? Were they not good enough already without giving them a way to trade cash for metamagic? (Especially if you're allowed to create rods of any metamagic feat you want). The Rokugan ninja; I know it doesn't compare to a pure caster, blah blah blah. My knee-jerk reaction on seeing it was still 'Wow that's stupidly good. What were they thinking?'
JasonOrlandoHawk 06-07-06, 01:43 AM	If by overpowered, we mean any option that completely negates the usefulness of another option, then the simplest answer is: Anything but the Fighter class! But on to my specific complaints: Pact Magic and Truename Magic from Tome of Magic: Limited number of uses per day! Does anyone understand this fundamental concept? (On the flip side, I LOVE SHADOW MAGIC!!! Balanced, unique feel, cool concept, oh yeah!!!) The amazing number of prestigious "Base" classes: Forgive me, I know this isn't a mathematical complaint, in all cases, but I have to say it. Am I the only person who thinks Ninja, Samurai, and Spellthief fall directly into the "should've been prestige classes" category? These, along with some other classes, just scream "NOT BASIC!" The ever expanding list of Cleric Domains: Seriously, did we really need a Knowledge Domain AND a Mind Domain? Just curious. Magic of Incarnum: My brain hurts just thinking about it! Raptorians (name?) from Races of the Wild: "My racial features improve every level, and I don't have an LA. What does your race do?" Great Cleave: And the Barbarian drops 12 badguys... Next attack... (The physics, they do not work in my head!) Save or Die Spells, and No Save, Just Die spells: Yes, I know Deathward stops these effects, but unless you happen to be able to cast it about 35 times per dungeon crawl, odds are, it's not going to be active when you need it. And last but not least... Elves and Halflings: Ok, they're not as bad as Raptorians, but something about free Martial Weapon Proficiencies and practical immunity to fear effects without levels in Paladin just strikes me as... off. In my standard gaming group, Elves outnumber all other races 3:1. Gnomes do not exist. Dwarves and Humans are around, but they are a endangered species. Seriously, there are other races in the PHB! I have other complaints, but I haven't had a chance to reference the feat section of the various books I consult. I may post more complaints on that topic later.
Xaktsaroth 06-07-06, 01:51 AM	Magic of Incarnum: My brain hurts just thinking about it! I'm confused. Why are you having problems with it?
Subedei 06-07-06, 01:51 AM	Actually, I feel limited number of uses/day is completely unecessary and actually creates problems as it virtually requires spellcasters to be stronger than non-spellcasters in any given encounter until they run out of spells. Most people who've played Psionics I think would agree with me, it's a much smoother, more streamlined system. Better to have spellcasting ability regenerate on an hourly basis instead of all at once on a daily basis though. I think it's just their taste Jason, in my group humans and halflings are numerically dominant. All around Gnomes are probably the best race in the PHB. Elves DEFINITELY arent. Tales of realistically impossible tasks abound in old fables. Wasn't it Sigurd who would cut down multiple trees with each swing of his sword as he missed his opponent? Think of it more like a comic book/anime, they're the heroic tales of our age.
deathwishjoe 06-07-06, 02:14 AM	I think it's just their taste Jason, in my group humans and halflings are numerically dominant. All around Gnomes are probably the best race in the PHB. Elves DEFINITELY arent. yeah Im going to have to agree with this. elves really arent that great. oooh look I get to use a long sword and a long bow. on the flip side I am taking a -2 to STR. hardly anyone I know plays them. besides who can give up the free bonus feat humans have? aside from racial requirements for a PrC I want to try out I've never wanted to use another race aside from human except for strong heart halfling (yet again the free bonus feat owns). I have noticed that many gaming groups seem to go through racial fads. like we started playing dragonlance and everyone wanted to be a kender. *shrugs*
PhoenixInferno 06-07-06, 03:15 AM	yeah Im going to have to agree with this. elves really arent that great. oooh look I get to use a long sword and a long bow. on the flip side I am taking a -2 to CON... And I just remembered a new thing that irked me - the Dragonwrought Kobold + Draconic age categories.
Junpei 06-07-06, 04:37 AM	And I just remembered a new thing that irked me - the Dragonwrought Kobold + Draconic age categories. That always struck me as an horribly wrong assumption... the Dragonwrought feat describes explicitly what the PC gets (dragon type, tinted scales, immunity to magic sleep and paralysis and a +2 on a skill), plus the SRD is very clear about how only true dragons power up as their age category increases... All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.). A kobold who takes the feat becomes a creature of the dragon type, not a true dragon, much like an half-dragon or a 10th level Dragon Disciple, so I really don't understand how people came to think that Dragonwrought kobolds could be able to snatch a free +3 to mental stats without penalties for their age... with this in mind, I don't see this feat as so much broken :)
_J_ 06-07-06, 04:48 AM	I really don't understand how people came to think that Dragonwrought kobolds could be able to snatch a free +3 to mental stats without penalties for their age... I think it might be page 39 explicitly saying that "Abilty penalties due age do not apply to dragonwrought kobolds" ;)
Junpei 06-07-06, 04:59 AM	I think it might be page 39 explicitly saying that "Abilty penalties due age do not apply to dragonwrought kobolds" ;) Uh-oh... I've missed that completely, my bad... :blush: Well, I'll spend those 1000 xp and... *manifests Time Regression* I fully support PhoenixInferno's opinion! "What Were They Thinking?" :rant: :D
Broken vacuum 06-07-06, 08:06 AM	Agree to thought bottle, it is so obviously abusable that it definitely provokes a "What were they thinking". I know some people won't agree with em, but I blieve that the fact that it has requisites any arcane caster can meet, and loses absolutely nothing(not even his familiar improvement), and gains some really good abilities makes it really unbalances. The wisdom loss doesn't even hurts his saving throw, since he gets a bonus on all his saving throws for free. Actually Alienists do give up something significant, although it is frequently overlooked. Their Summon Alien feature limits their choice of summonable creatures severely. Only the creatures in the summon lists that have either the celestial or fiendish template can be summoned (and they are pseudonatural for the Alienist). This limits the choices rather significantly, especially at higher levels; a lot of the creatures with handy spells and special abilities are simply not available to an Alienist.
skydragonknight 06-07-06, 09:46 AM	Ever see a Slime Wave used on a Collosal Construct? How many 5 foot squares is that?
Squirrelloid 06-07-06, 10:47 AM	Best races in the PHB: Human, Dwarf, maybe Gnome, a few Halfling builds. In approximately that order. I've never seen anything else played. And most people i know play humans. Game group 1: 2 Dwarves, 1 Gnome, 3 Humans (ok, 2 humans and a bear now, but thats the druids fault). Game group 2: 1 Halfling, 1 Changeling (nonPHB), 3 Humans The bonus feat owns. As does the +1 skill/level. You know, most of the stuff people are mentioning in this thread isn't that broken. Some of it certainly is (Thought Bottle), but there's an amazing amount of balanced or reasonably balanced material thats been mentioned. And some stuff that was overnerfed. (3.5 Alienist got the shaft - give me the 3.0 version any day).
Squirrelloid 06-07-06, 10:51 AM	Incantrix. The whole class. Admittedly the first version was worse, but the revised come with its own set of real beauties. I mean.. 4 Bonus Metamagic Feats Free metamagic twice a day Improved Metamagic!! And the big sign that says Team Player as you wander around and persist all those Mass spells for your party. This is a common misperception. Not that incantatrix is overpowered (it certainly is), but that the 3.0 version is better. Come now, metamagic effect? And metamagic spell trigger? Free metamagic FTW!
Caelic 06-07-06, 11:03 AM	I'm going to toss in Extraordinary Spell Aim as borderline. I say borderline because I believe it's a case of bad wording and not forseeing the results--I don't think the feat was ever intended to turn long-term spells into a forcefield around the caster. However, the wording most certainly suggests that this can be done, and the result is so goofy-powerful and so prone to provoke arguments that I feel it falls into the "What Were They Thinking?" category.
jameswilliamogle 06-07-06, 11:19 AM	Sarukh. Thought Bottle. Assume Supernatural Ability. VoP: although not broken, definitely a "what were they thinking" thing. old ones already mentioned, reposted for my sanity: fast-track casting prc's (ur, beholder-mage, nar, etc). Greenbound Summoning (for lack of prereq's). Pre-errata Polymorph. Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell. Persistant + Metamagic reduction (really, it's this combo that is so horrible).
ronyon 06-07-06, 12:14 PM	Where can these wonderous capsule retainers be found? So far I think alot of stuff has been covered that needs to be mentioned on this thread. I would like to add the PHBII web enchancement to the list with all the xp transfer devices for crafting. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a... Uh wow. I hate to have to luv up on some cheese in a cheese haten thread, but...this rocks! I just want to use it with my Rune Circle crafter, for spreading magic circles everywhere I go. Imagine every little village with its very own Rune Circle, custom made to foster communications, transportation, healing, food supply, self defense, etc. I would be more popular than a porkbarrel politico, a rainmaker and Johney Appleseed combined! Oh, of course, the limitations placed on these circles would be such as to foster worship of my god/principles, but thats just a coincidence....
solbergb 06-07-06, 12:16 PM	weapon capsule retainers (and capsules) are found in Complete Adventurer. They're exactly the kind of thing adventurers with alchemist friends would come up with, from a flavor standpoint they're ok. They're just too cheap for what they do.
Fargren 06-08-06, 01:12 PM	Than what about the Loremaster? They land along the same lines of "there's really no reason for a wizard not to take it, since they practically fall face first into the requirements anyway." I think it's a bit of an overdiagnosis to say that they are too powerful. I've only ever seen one person play an Alienist ever. Same with Loremaster. My friend just started one in my game recently. And my friends play a crapload of wizards. I Didn't mean to say it was totally broken, or stupid to add in game because of it's power. There are certainly more powerfull PrCs out there, that are more woth it than it. I nly posted it as the first example that came to my mind of a PrC that loses nothing and gains cool stuff.