Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrossUMT 05-22-05, 02:32 PM	Howdy folks, this is more or less a challenge; One of the local DMs is having a contest in which three or four teams of six people will each have a slotted, bi-weekly time in which to work their way through the same dungeon and the first people to make it out or the last people standing will recieve prizes and good stuff like that. The whole game has some great rules and some not so great rules. If you die, you're dead - go home and don't bother coming back anymore. So here's the thing; I've been selected to be on one of the teams and let's just say there's a little bit more than the prizes motivating me to do well here. The books which are allowed are the PHB, all of the "complete" books (Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, etc), the Book of Exhalted Deeds and the Book of Vile Darkness. Some of the races from Races of the Wild will be allowed but nothing that's particularly wonky (full orc, etc). Also, the Psionic Handbook is being allowed and players may choose to play Psions as well. Assume that most teams will consist of the basic four (warrior, cleric, thief and wizard) and two additional characters. The team I'm on is more or less set and I've been asked to fill the role of the blasty spellcaster cannon. Keeping this in mind, I need help to create a character that will grow from level 1 to 20 throughout his time in the dungeon and be able to contribute at least a little bit the whole way through. Let's get down to the nitty gritty; Starting level is 1, eventually we'll (hopefully) make it to 20 so I need a plan that is effective from start to finish with no auto-levelling. Stats are on a 36-point buy system starting at 8. It takes 1 point to raise a stat by 1 from 8 to 14, 2 from 14 to 16 and 3 for 17 and 18. Starting cash is your class's maximum possible starting cash. Please note that parties may pool their cash at the beginning to buy things however they see fit. Alignment is anything you'd like to play. There are things that will both help you and hurt you regardless of your alignment. I'm assuming my party will choose the Chaotic Good or Neutral Good path. Skills and hitpoints are by the book. Roll one die and you're stuck with the result. Prestige classes are allowed. However, you must actually meet all the requirements for joining one. I will not ever recieve favorable DM rulings on things and it will all be by the book(s). I would have to be able to qualify for it in the dungeon; I can't find the rainbow monkey temple, I can't get accepted into the Arcane Order and I certainly can't die and be resurrected at any convenient time. This dungeon claims to have one of nearly every monster from the Monster Manual 3.5 so keep that in mind; the character should have as few glaring vulnerabilities as possible. The classes I've been considering are Warmage (I always play this one, love it), Sorcerer with Mindbender PrC (lose some spellcasting but four permanent pets at level 14 is sexy) and perhaps the Warlock. I really appreciate any suggestions, I've been wracking my brain over this and now I'm paralyzed with pain for 1d4 rounds and... wow, I'm a nerd. Take it easy guys.
gman 05-22-05, 05:32 PM	About a simple wizard 15/archmage 5? The extra levels of wizard will give a fwe more feats, which could be used for item creation since I would imagine you will have a hard time finding items to buy, or simply for metamagic. Nothing wonky here, just easy and effective. You could also go into the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil for some funk. Very strong defensive PrC. Stats would be as any normal caster. Usual feats involving mix of metamagic suites (Empower, Extend, Quicken) and item creation (Craft Wonderous Item, maybe Craft Wand or Staff), besides the requisites for Archmage.
SmiloDan 05-22-05, 05:44 PM	I've been playing in this dungeon for a while, and the PCs are pretty disposable. It's really deadly. I would suggest playing a dwarf. Bonus to Con, and darkvision. I even went so far as to make a Dwarf Barbarian with 20 Con and Toughness, axe and board build, and he still died. Dang stirges! But he was a 25 point buy. I wouldn't get Item Creation feats, unless your DM is going to let you have a week to sit in a secure room and make stuff. You'd probably be better off using the Wizard's bonus feats on Spell Mastery and Metamagic feats. And buy some extra, blank, spellbooks.
CrossUMT 05-22-05, 05:49 PM	Good suggestions, I'm not sure how item creation factors in but I'm assuming that's not going to be my realm anyway. My character will be a one-trick pony for the most part; what that trick is is another matter entirely. I've been asked to play a blasty, damage-oriented type which is why I was thinking warmage or mindbender. With warmage you're just a blaster to the core and mindbender you can focus on feeblemind type spells and boosting your primary casting stat to make your charms more effective. Straight wizard would be good except we've already got someone filling that position; as it is our team layout so far looks like this: Wizard Druid Cleric Barbarian Blaster mage / DD magic user (me) Psion We've got our bases covered, it's just a matter of me being the best I can possibly be. This dungeon isn't about me, it's about our team, as far as I'm concerned so I don't care if I'm the most "uber" or anything like that, I just want to be able to do my job extremely well.
SmiloDan 05-22-05, 05:53 PM	Have you read "Races of Stone?" There's a nifty sorcerer substitution feat for dwarven sorcerers. Granted, you're taking a Cha penalty...unless you're a gold dwarf or some variant dwarf. I don't know much about the 2 classes you're talking about. You probably want to bring in LOTS of extra rations, too. Or learn how to cook orcs and stirges and darkmantles.
Dichotomy 05-22-05, 05:55 PM	I admit that I am not one of the guru's of the optimization board, but perhaps I can help some. I've been ased to fill the role of the blasty spellcaster cannon. You probably want sorcerer rather than wizard. They are better blasters and I have heard from numerous sources that finding spells to add to a wizard's spellbook is hard in the WLD. That makes the drawback of a sorc much easier to deal with. With this role in mind, I highly suggest that you not bother with Mindbender. A Mindbender is not a "blasty spellcaster." You also probably don't want to take the caster level hit. The skill requirements are also somewhat demanding for the crappy sorcerer skill list. Unfortunately, while I have looked at them, I do not OWN any of the Complete series except CW. But with the limitations you have said (not being able to join the Arcane Order, etc.), I think the prestige classes in CA would pretty much be crap (curse them for killing the Elemental Savant). Since your party is likely to be good, take advantage of the book of Exalted Deeds. I suggest definately looking at Exalted Arcanist. The boost to your spells known will be a boon. Here is a sketch of a possible build from the 3.5 Sorcerer-Thread: The Exalted Mystic: Sorcerer6/ExaltedArcanist5/CelestialMystic9 1 Sorc1 Sacred Vow, VowOfPoverty (human) 2 Consecrate Spell (bonus) 3 OPEN 4 Purify Spell (bonus) 6 Sorc6 OPEN, Vow of Abstinence (bonus) 7 Exalted Arcanist 1 8 EA2 Servant of the Heavens (bonus) 9 Celestial Mystic 1 OPEN 10-20 finish EA and then take CM levels the rest of the way. You can cast all Sanctified spells as if they were spells known, qualify as an Archon for casting all the Archon spells, and get a ton of neat special abilities and a boatload of Exalted feats. You lose 2 caster levels, and have taken a Vow of Poverty, however. So you pay for it. I know you said post full builds, but you could go alot of different directions with this, since you use your bonus Exalted feats from the VoP to get all your other prereq feats. I'd probably focus on Metamagic feats, since sorcerer's are good at using them anyway. I personally don't like the hit to caster levels, but it might be worth it. This is a could place to start, at least. As for race, really you probably want to stick to human. Not too much that really needs to be said about that. For ability scores, I suggest: STR 8 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 18 At least as a place to start. You are starting at level 1, and if you die you are dead. Therefore it is imperative that your CON be 16 (both for hitpoints and for the ever-important Fort save [bad guys like to target arcane casters with Fort spells/effects]). As some last advice, while you want to be a "blasty cannon," do NOT overlook the benefits of battlefield control. There are two reasons why battlefield control will be a boon: 1) dungeons are generally tight places to fight, and 2) you and your party members don't get to die. Because dungeons are generally tight, well-used control can be even more effective. Also, when confines are tight, you are more likely to catch your friends with friendly-fire with blasty spells. Since you can't afford to die even once, it makes it more imperative that you not accidently catch the rogue with your fireball. Sure he has evasion, but you can't afford for him to roll a natural 1 even a single time. As some more last advice, make sure your party understands how important you are. Make sure they know what you CAN and CANNOT do. Make sure that they do what they can to make sure that you stay out of danger, especially early on. Hope this helps.
CrossUMT 05-22-05, 05:58 PM	Great advice! I'm gonna look into that build and take your suggestions into consideration, I like them. Thanks :)
42up 05-22-05, 06:55 PM	warlocks rock in WLD you will plow through the rat swarms with your spider climbing and eldritch blast. You could probably solo some of the encounters. Wizards are a bad idea in WLD, a much better choice would be to play a psion. Get into something like illithid (or whatever type of psionic creature) slayer and you are one hard-core dude. Druids are also pretty damn strong as well in WLD. To sum up, I cannot stress how good warlocks are in WLD. Especially in the early going. They lose a bit by the end if you cant get some of the special warlock items to beef up their eldritch blast...good thing they have UMD. This will be a life saver in WLD.
Avanter 05-22-05, 09:14 PM	why not go wilder? you can pick the kind of energy damage you do when you manifest the power, and they get crazier as they go up in levels..you dont know alot of powers, but wilders are the cream of the crop for blasting. Avanter
MechaboyDos 05-22-05, 09:29 PM	Wizards get absolutely shafted in WLD. Go for Sorcerer or Warmage all the way. Warlock would be good too, although in certain parts of the dungeon you may have a hard time as one (not because of abilities but rather because of what you are). If you want to be a pure blaster master powerhouse of badassness, then Warmage is probably your best bet. Sorcerer would be better though if you still want some utility spells, which will be needed, but if your other casters have those covered then Warmage is where it's at. If you're Good aligned, then make sure to pick up Purify Spell and Consecrate Spell for your Feats. Or take the opposite if you're Evil aligned, although depending on where you go in the dungeon when, you may have a hard time being Evil aligned. Also, as a blaster, take Point-Blank Shot for all those times you'll be firing into melee and if you go Warmage take Battle Caster. Weapon Focus (Ranged Spell) and Ranged Spell Specialization are also worth considering, and Extra Edge if you go Warmage.
Alakar 05-22-05, 09:31 PM	Since it seems you already have a wizards, why not got something like paladin 2, warmage 8, Eldritch knight 10. its simple, its blasty, and its effective. Paladin level help to survive early on, and warmage lets you have 6d hp at instead of the d4ish caster types. ive played through a little of this dungeon, and this build seems to be surviving. Of course i've just now got my first level in warmage. Focus on ranged touch spells, the orbs are so good. Make sure to take feats to shoot into combat, and to buff your ability to over come spell resistance. Energy substitution and admixture would probably be good as well. I'm sure others on this boards who are far greater at opting characters would have a better say. Anways, i hope this helps, good luck.
OnCider 05-23-05, 05:40 AM	Got all bases covered? I don't see a rogue in there. And having played in the WLD, I wouldn't be without one.
Mommy was an Orc 05-23-05, 10:24 AM	That does seem to be a distinct lack... Got all bases covered? I don't see a rogue in there. And having played in the WLD, I wouldn't be without one.
Tytalus 05-23-05, 10:56 AM	No rogue? Ugh. Another option for a blaster-oriented caster is to start off as a human sorcerer and take the feats Draconic Heritage and Draconic Breath (both Complete Arcane). At first level it's hard to beat a 2D6 cone of elemental damage for a single 1st level spell, and the breath ability scales nicely. Plus, you are still a caster. Head for a fun PrC (maybe Mage of the Arcnae Order for versatility?) and you are good to go. Since you already have a wizard, I'd also consider the Warlock (as pointd out above). Blast all day long. If you need to fill the rogue role as well, combine one or more rogue levels with warlock.
AramilWindwalker 05-23-05, 11:07 AM	No rogue? Ugh. Another option for a blaster-oriented caster is to start off as a human sorcerer and take the feats Draconic Heritage and Draconic Breath (both Complete Arcane). At first level it's hard to beat a 2D6 cone of elemental damage for a single 1st level spell, and the breath ability scales nicely. Plus, you are still a caster. Head for a fun PrC (maybe Mage of the Arcnae Order for versatility?) and you are good to go. Since you already have a wizard, I'd also consider the Warlock (as pointd out above). Blast all day long. If you need to fill the rogue role as well, combine one or more rogue levels with warlock. Take that idea and add Arcane trickster if possible
Mommy was an Orc 05-23-05, 11:17 AM	I might try some of these builds: Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Sorcerer 1/Daggerspell Mage 8/Spellsword 1/Arcane Trickster 6. The problem is that Search/Disable Devices are not class skills from levels 6-11. Able Learner from Races of Destiny solves this and I prefer Wizard over Sorcerer normally. But the 1st appears to be not allowed and it isn't clear where you'd get your spellbook for Wizard, or at least the rare inks necessary to copy into it. Warmage 8/Wildmage 6/Divine Oracle 3/Loremaster 3 - Requires at least a 12 Wisdom and taking the Arcane Disciple Feat(Travel Domain) to qualify for Divine Oracle. Gets you a flexible character who has evasion in any armor and a decent enough Reflex save to count for something(+11 with the Loremaster secret)
cvazi 05-23-05, 11:39 AM	I am not too familiar with WLD. But if it is one lonr dungeon crawl (which I suspect it is) then I would go with Warlock. The warlock is on the low end of the DD, but since you never have to worry about ammo/ spells per day/ powerpoints, they make ideal dungeoncrawlers. They also have some very nice abilities such as thier dispel magic unlimited times a day, and status affectors (make'em shaken, then sickened. . .). They would be my first choice for long crawls. If WLD is classified as an "unworked stone" or "unworked earth" the other choice I would go for would be a wilder with the feats Earthsense and Earth Power (reduces pp cost by 1, if on unworked ground). I would go the powerpoint conservation route, esp at earlier levels. (1pp=3d6+3 damage at level 1 [energy ray]). and since you also have a psion inthe party as well, the RAW allows you to access his powerlist (with 2 psicraft 15+powerlevel check) if he is willing and physically contacted with you.
CrossUMT 05-23-05, 02:12 PM	Now that you mention it we are distinctly missing a rogue, we'll have to look into that. As far as taking the Mage of the Arcane Order or any of the other various prestige classes they're definately good suggestions, they just don't work here. We can't take any prestige class that we can't qualify for 100% and we're not going to run into the arcane order anywhere in the dungeon. Every prestige class I try to take I'm going to have to meet every single qualification for and the DM will be absolutely rigid in the application of the requirements.
Snarf 05-23-05, 06:05 PM	I can't agree more with the rogue point. Knowing a lot about WLD (I'm preparing to DM it) it seems to me that the most important class to have is a rogue, followed by clerics (or other fightin' healer types). You can't throw a rock without tripping 3-4 traps in WLD. Any party without a serious trap-finder is in big trouble. Plus, with a decently-sized party such as you have, even a straight rogue is great in battle and fun to play, given the multitude of flanking opportunities.
MechaboyDos 05-23-05, 06:59 PM	I would suggest going full Rogue and abandoning spellcasting altogether if you don't already have a Rogue. Either that or Able Learner. You absolutely cannot be without a Rogue in WLD. You WILL die.
ninjarabbit 05-23-05, 08:50 PM	For a pure blaster I think a halfling sorcerer6/luckstealer5(RotW)/fatespinner4(CA)/archmage5 is pretty good and the lucky spell ability from the luckstealer is worth it alone for a blaster.
DungeonMaster 05-23-05, 09:57 PM	Honestly if you guys expect to make it through you would need more than one rogue. Will skill focus disable device and skill focus search to boot. Maybe an elf and high Int in there too. Some areas are only traps.
allenchan 05-23-05, 11:28 PM	Most of the trap areas you can avoid though, iirc. there's always multiple avenues. Anywho, I recommend Warmage or Warlock. Warmage has more versitilaty, and is better then a sorc for blasting. Again, wizards arent that great because of spell availability.
CrossUMT 05-24-05, 02:46 AM	Warmage is my favorite class, I play it every chance I get. I'm a little wary about using him in WLD, though, just because he's a little too limited for a party as we've got it developed. I did speak to the party tonight and one of the guys, the psion, will be going rogue... in a manner of speaking, so we've got that covered. (There's also talk of the wizard going rogue instead of the psion). Now a warmage would work as far as the other guys and gals in the party are concerned but I also raised the idea of a mindbender/sorcerer to them and they seemed to like that, too. So the question is now... straight warmage, straight sorcerer or sorcerer/mindbender?
MechaboyDos 05-24-05, 06:34 PM	Since you've already got primary spellcasting covered, I'd say go for either Warmage or Sorcerer/Mindbender. You can't really go wrong with the Warmage's blasting and stronger HD and ability to wear armor, but his repetoire is somewhat limited and for something like WLD utility spells are pretty important. Mindbender on the other hand can definitely come in handy in some instances. Go for Rogue 2/Sorcerer 5/Mindbender 10, then finish it off with the class of your choice. Your caster level will be ******, but the Mindbender abilities will more than make up for that, especially if you can thrall something with ungodly spellcasting capabilities, like say a powerful Outsider. Plus you've already got other dedicated casters. Also, your additional Rogue skills won't hurt. Take Able Learner so you can keep your Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, and Spot up to par. You'll need a high Intelligence to really get a lot of skill points though. Practiced Spellcaster will also help a little bit with the loss of caster levels. And anything that can up the DC on your Eternal Charm and Dominate abilities is essential.
CrossUMT 05-24-05, 06:48 PM	The only thing that can up the DCs on the eternal charm special ability line is your casting stat, as far as I know. There's also a small debate as to whether or not a Circlet of Persuasion (+3 to Charisma Checks, not skill checks mind you, in the DMG) adds to that as well. So what I've done with the mindbender that I'm currently playing is to take spell focus and greater spell focus in Enchant and use spells like Feeblemind, Mind Fog and Touch of Idiocy in conjunction with disabling spells like Tasha's Hideous Laughter to keep things unable to fight back well and with a crushed will that can be easily charmed... and then it can all be remedied after I have their mind in my palm, heh. I really like the Mindbender class and I would play him in a heartbeat if he turns out to be survivable in WLD. Warmage I'm pretty convinced isn't a good choice in there; simply because of his limited versatility.
MechaboyDos 05-24-05, 06:50 PM	Well, you could also take the Feat Ability Focus from the Monster Manual; it's a General Feat so anybody can take it. It increases the DC on one of your special abilities by 2. So Ability Focus (Eternal Charm) and Ability Focus (Dominate).
Xperiment 05-24-05, 06:53 PM	Grey Elf Rogue 20 is what I would say... +2 Dex/Int, -2 Str/Con You'll be flanking anyways, so your main dmg won't come from str, it will come from SA... Dagger with Weapon Finesse and massive skills... Seems very nice to me...
Rurik "The Silent" 05-24-05, 08:08 PM	About a simple wizard 15/archmage 5? The extra levels of wizard will give a fwe more feats, which could be used for item creation since I would imagine you will have a hard time finding items to buy, or simply for metamagic. Nothing wonky here, just easy and effective. You could also go into the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil for some funk. Very strong defensive PrC. Stats would be as any normal caster. Usual feats involving mix of metamagic suites (Empower, Extend, Quicken) and item creation (Craft Wonderous Item, maybe Craft Wand or Staff), besides the requisites for Archmage. What about the section of the book that explicitly says Wizards get HOSED in this dungeon, really they have no way of researching spells and such and if they don't get an water resistant and fire resstant spellbook they will die...no question really. The wizard, while very strong, gets nothing in this dungeon. IMO, ide go with the human Warlock. At least to lvl 12, then you can make any item you want and you get some very, very, VERY useful invocations. Becasue your playing a human you get the extra feat and it will be very worth it. Becasue the dungeon is dark you can have the See the Unseen invocation, giving you darkvision and see invisibility. Eldritch blast is great for taking out all these low level pesky critters in the duengon. Espically in your group. But the main dvantage of being a warlock is the ability to craft. You can bar doors and close yourself in secure rooms. So once you hit lvl 12 your options become open, just knwo if you can't craft you are limited to the items in the duengon becasue there is no place to buy items. EVER. After warlock, you could pick up some Mindbender lvls for the extra help. And maybe even leadership so you can have tons of help in the dungeon...also your "help" becomes monentray gain if ever...well, when your followers die. So that will give you some ability to gain a lil bit more than usual. The mian objective being to come out alive. The Warlock presents many options for survival. Dark ones own luck helps a lot too. Alother option ide go with is a... monk 2/warlock 6/ Ur-Priest 6/ Sacred Fist 3/ Hierophant 2 this build gets you +14 BAB Fort save +13 Ref Save +10 Will Save +17 Fairly Decent HD; 14d8 + 6d6 Divine caster lvl of 21st in 20 lvls Rebuke undead, very helpful later in the dunegon 6th lvl warlock casting invocations: (least) Dark one's own luck, See the Unseen, Entropic Warding. (lesser) Curse of Dispare...with the new rule in CA you can deliver the curse fo dispare with a punch, rather than a melee touch attack. Evasion Siphon spell for higher spell lvls... this becomes very, very useful warlock 1 Iron will, Maligin spell focus monk 1 monk 2 Craft wonderous item Warlock 2 Warlock 3 Ur-Priest 1 Combat Casting Ur-Priest 2 Ur-Priest 3 Ur-Priest 4 Heighten Spell Ur-Priest 5 Ur-Priest 6 Sacred fist 1 forge ring Sacred fist 2 Sacred fist 3 Heirophant 1 quicken spell like ability, special ability (Miracle 2/ day) Ur-Priest 7 Warlock 4 Warlock 5 practiced spell caster Warlock 6 Hierophant 2 Special ability (Spell Power +2) I just put the feat selection i used, you can use some different ones, but ide keep the hierophant special abilities as is. You need sphion spell or just a high wisdom score to have lvl nine divine spells at lvl 15 for hierophants spell like ability. But needless to say any 8th lvl divine spell, or 7th lvl spell of anytihng else 2 times per day once as a free action...tere is your versitility. Basically you can take advantage of anytihngs weakness with it. Practiced spellcaster gives you a great bonus to your caster lvl just make sure you use if for your ur-priest lvls vs, your warlock ones. that was the character i playedfor the dunegon then i was so strong i decided to switch.... but if you want to survive ide recommend this build its worked great for me and is survivable at all levels. And you end up with a very high AC...pour everything into Wis and Dex and your spells get harder to resist and your AC gets better.