Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Squidmaster 01-25-06, 12:17 AM	I'm about to kick off a homebrew game (link in sig) in a few weeks, and one of my players has plans for a barbarian/bear warrior (called Berserk in my game)/reaping mauler hailing from a norse-style dwarven region. I think he's going with 7 levels of barb ultimately, 10 of bear, and 3 of reaping mauler, but don't quote me. This seems pretty strong, and I'm ok with that, but I'd like some advice on how to handle it, possibly with counter-builds or monsters to use, and I'd also just like a general consensus from the optimizing pros on the relative power of this setup over the course of a game. Thanks in advance.
Pinky's brain 01-25-06, 01:18 AM	Strong is such a relative term when you are at level 20 and the full casters have shapechange. Hell, for a high level game Id optimize that a bit more just to keep up. He doesn't get a lot from all those barbarian levels, he'd be better off with extra rage and fighter levels, and the last 5 levels of bearwarrior are a bit subpar ... Reaping mauler is also subpar. Basically it gives you two bonus feats, one of which you can check off against the relatively useless clever wrestling, and a +2 on grapple checks ... sleeper lock and devestating grapple are nice, but not really good enough to be relevant. All in all a poor return on 5 levels IMO. How exactly are you going to handle his full attacks on a grapple? Will he still get secondary attacks from his natural weapons? (I personally think he should.) Id just not worry about it, a lot of creatures will have ways of getting out of grapples or even of not getting into them at all (teleportation, freedom, or ring thereof). The stupid monsters will tend to be much larger than him. He can only disable a single creature through grappling if he's lucky, and will still need a while to kill it by himself ... casters can one shot a creature each round if they are lucky. Just let him be.
Lusden Veharo 01-25-06, 01:33 AM	If you want to throw something up against him, any big, powerful animal or vermin (the "pet" of the BBEG) can probably toast him in a grapple contest and make him scramble for new ways to pump his strength. When he discovers Polymorphing into a Firbolg and then raging into a bear for the bonus strength, then graduate onto something with poison. Just remember not to overuse this or he'll be justifiably upset. Any beefy hired muscle can face off well for normal matches and slow him down.
Squidmaster 01-25-06, 12:08 PM	I erred slightly in my build posting - he will have a couple levels of fighter thrown in as well, which makes sense to me. This game is going to theoretically go the distance, from 1 to (hopefully) 20, though I have a contingency plan if that doesn't pan out. In the early going he'll just be a regular melee combatant, but once those reaping mauler levels get mixed in he's going to be able to essentially kill any opponent he can pin for one round, yes? I am considering changing the "sleeper hold" to a 3 round pin since the effect is almost identical to the kill version 2 level later given the context of a D&D battle. Oh, wait, there's a save for it as well, and that number isn't a great one. Maybe that's the mitigating factor here.
Pinky's brain 01-25-06, 01:06 PM	Indeed, the saves are really low ... the 5th level justiciar ability is infinitely better.
neilthrun 01-25-06, 07:29 PM	Don't worry about it too much, grappling leaves you wide open for getting hit. If he realy wants to throw some punishment down he'd go Barb5/Fighter2/BearWarrior5/Warshaper4. I'd be willing to bet that this is stronger than a barb7/BearWarrior10/ReapingMauler3. Even though its missing its last 4 levels. Bear Warrior is deffinately not broken and reaping mauler is just weak. Warshaper is pushing the bounds of not broken. As long as he doesn't try to grow 50 natural attacks using it, its not broken. Don't play against him to much, it will get really frustrating. I played a fighter/reaping mauler once. Not only did he suck, it was frustrating that I only got to shine every once in a while. In otherwords, don't throw too many low level monsters, that will die in a single hit, at him.
Squidmaster 01-25-06, 07:50 PM	Now that's interesting. Are you talking about getting hit from other opponents, factoring in the % chance to hit each target, or via some other method? He can't pick warshaper in this game because I don't feel it meets the flavor of any of my regions. I'm running an ancient-feeling game, and extending "rubber claws" just doesn't work for me with that. So, do you think the mauler is weak purely because of the low save for the key abilities? I actually suggested it to him in our conversations about how to make him fit a fun role and be strong, thinking that those two PrCs together would be a fearsome combo. Got a better build for him? Here is the list of allowed prestige classes, which takes into account book restrictions and flavor ones as well. Faiths and Empires Prestige Classes (http://www.themosmillers.org/faithsandempires/classes.html#prestige) If you have a different class to add that fits a norse-dwarf themed region (not the Frenzied Berserker though) feel free to include and reference it so I can take a look.
Pinky's brain 01-25-06, 09:12 PM	In melee there is no chance to hit the other grappler, only ranged attacks from attackers without improved precise shot suffer that. Even the bearwarrior might be a very weak prestige class in your campaign, it's all up to you. Do you allow most magic items to survive the transformation? Do you allow him to combine unarmed strikes with his natural weapons in melee? Do you allow him to use his natural weapons as secondary attacks in a grapple? If some of the answers are no it also turns into a poor prestige class. PS. not that it matters now, but IMO warshapers can only improve or create one natural weapon (because it's a magical effect with duration, and when using it multiple times the later uses will surpress the preceding ones). PPS. what exactly are the book restrictions?
neilthrun 01-25-06, 09:19 PM	Reaping Mauler is weak, because of low saves, armor requirements, and lack of strong abilities. Mobility isn't horribly usefull, It's most likely he will already have improved grapple. And the +2 bonus to grapples is a joke. Counter Grapple is interesting, but most Reaping Maulers won't be trying to escape grapples. There is definately no reason to take the 4th or 5th level. If he wants his bear warrior to really pack a punch, consider these feats. Instaneous Rage, this allows him to suddenly turn into a bear and get reach, durring other turns, possibly grabbing AOO he normally wouldn't have.
Squidmaster 01-25-06, 10:23 PM	Combine unarmed strikes with natural weapons? I don't entirely follow. I plan to follow the rules for polymorph as presented in the PH. I believe that means most items don't survive, but I am sensitive to the way things are progressing in the game, so if it's not working out, I'll tweak that or provide "free" wilding clasps or something that has a less cheesy ring to it. I do not know the rules for secondary attacks in grapples. If a regular bear gets them and the polymorph rules don't override that, I'd allow it. Official rulings on these matters are usually pretty solid I find. Maybe I'm thinking of a 3.0 rule, but I thought melee attacks against grapplers treated them as flat footed and involved a chance to hit the wrong target. I also believe ranged attacks don't suffer that chance, but instead suffer a -4 penalty in general, grapple or no grapple. I have to read over grappling, as I have not had to deal with it for a while. The armor requirement for the reaping mauler doesn't much matter if you're a bear. The low save always does of course. As with most things, if that is proving to be a problem, I'll provide an item or blessing of some kind to increase the save number. We don't have access to a number of books, including the Complete Adventurer, Complete Arcane, Frostburn, and any of the races books. Most FR material is designed for a more powerful game, such as the various cleric PrCs in the player's guide. I hate classes that just add abilities to a class without some kind of meaningful tradeoff. Sometimes I can create that tradeoff with a mod, but sometimes it's just too systemic, like the Eye of Horus Re. If someone grabs anything I don't have, I'll do my homework and add what makes sense. Additionally, if any classes are presented online as a teaser or something, the same applies. At the moment, just refer to the list I provided. A few things have changed names (Berserk = Bear Warrior, for instance, because the actual Berserk PrC seems to be poorly designed and lacking in power while filling a similar style niche, but the name is more suitable for the campaign.) Some of those names are obvious but some are not. Feel free to ask if you are curious. Oh, and there are no monks in this game.
Pinky's brain 01-25-06, 11:05 PM	Combine unarmed strikes with natural weapons? I don't entirely follow.Well unarmed strikes can be performed with kicks, and a bear can stand on his hind legs ... so in theory you could perform unarmed strikes and follow them up with all your natural weapons as secondary attacks. I plan to follow the rules for polymorph as presented in the PH. I believe that means most items don't surviveThat is a matter of perspective, alter self says this : "When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item)" Almost all magic items except for armor and weapons auto-resize to fit and a bear has digits, paws, arms, legs, a torso, a neck, a head etc. Hell they are more humanoid shaped than dragons, and dragons can use all common magic items. I do not know the rules for secondary attacks in grapples.The rules are completely unclear. Official rulings on these matters are usually pretty solid I find.Hah :) Maybe I'm thinking of a 3.0 rule, but I thought melee attacks against grapplers treated them as flat footed and involved a chance to hit the wrong target.Grapplers lose their dex to AC, not quite the same as flat footed, and there is no miss chance for melee. I also believe ranged attacks don't suffer that chance, but instead suffer a -4 penalty in general, grapple or no grapple.They suffer a -4 penalty to shoot into melee period ... they suffer the miss chance additionally when shooting into a grapple. We don't have access to a number of books, including the Complete Adventurer, Complete Arcane, Frostburn, and any of the races books. Most FR material is designed for a more powerful game, such as the various cleric PrCs in the player's guide. I hate classes that just add abilities to a class without some kind of meaningful tradeoff.I hate the balance between full casters and everything else in core, and think the non full casters deserve just about anything they can lay their hands on. (Berserk = Bear Warrior, for instance, because the actual Berserk PrC seems to be poorly designed and lacking in power while filling a similar style niche, but the name is more suitable for the campaign.) Some of those names are obvious but some are not. Feel free to ask if you are curious. Oh, and there are no monks in this game.Ah ... was going to suggest that berserk might be a good mix with bearwarrior in your game, because you can use the hybrid shape with the bearwarrior stat bonuses, guess that tactic is out.
neilthrun 01-25-06, 11:33 PM	You might want to get a copy of Frostburn. Frostrager and Primeval would work well for this guy.
Squidmaster 01-26-06, 12:12 AM	Yeah, the actual Berserk class suffers from the same problem as the Frenzied Berserker. Powerful abilities are balanced by a risk to the group. I hate that, because it doesn't truly balance the class, and introduces the possibility of loopholes via class combos that typically make no sense. No kung fu unarmed combat bears in my game, by the way. That's just weird. :D Grapple is always complicated isn't it? I can't find the references to miss chances for ranged attacks, and in fact I can't find the references for attacking into a grapple at all. ... and after reading Improved Grab, that's confusing too! I assume iterative attacks are gone if you're polymorphed into a bear, so if you claw-grab with claw 1, you don't get a followup with claw 2 unless you take the -20... That means you do the claw damage and achieve the grapple, then do damage next round once? Iterative attacks for that? It also only works on opponents smaller than you, so until brown bear form comes along, improved grab usually doesn't come into play. Bah humbug. The last sentence is also a bit of a mystery, as it provides something of an "out clause" for moving an opponent in a grapple, but states no means of achieving that movement. It sounds like an improved grab allows movement as a regular move action with no checks required, so long as the weight limits are met. The question of secondary attacks in grapples for beasties actually is answered by omission if you read the description for Rake a couple pages over. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks... Since bears don't get rake, they can only attack with one natural weapon per grapple. Tell me there is clarification for this somewhere. If my assertions are correct, I see what you're saying about the class being kinda weak. I was thinking subconsciously about this and assuming that iterative attacks would apply in a grapple. If this is not the case, the bear warrior's strength lies mainly in regular attacks modified by the huge strength bonus. As for items, I'll go case by case. I don't think something like boots would change over (it's hard to envision that in a way that is not silly), for instance, but a girdle, ring, or something else might be fine. I'm going to have to keep mulling. Hopefully some clarifications will follow. I totally agree with you about casters winning the high level war. I do not believe the answer lies in increasing offensive abilities of non-casters. Instead, there needs to be some kind of saving throw or SR factor in play that makes such characters far more resistant to the effects. That makes sense from a fantasy perspective if you ask me, but I can't say I have a solid way to implement it at the moment.
Pinky's brain 01-26-06, 01:04 AM	I can't find the references to miss chances for ranged attacks, and in fact I can't find the references for attacking into a grapple at all.Second table here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/combatModifiers.html). I assume iterative attacks are gone if you're polymorphed into a bearThere is nothing in the rules to support this. so if you claw-grab with claw 1, you don't get a followup with claw 2 unless you take the -20.Well in this case you are already using natural weapons as primary attacks, so we can indeed disregard iterative attacks. If you don't take the -20 you just enter the normal grapple though, and you start following the "if grappling rules". The attack which initiated the grapple was not performed inside the grapple, so you still get your remaining natural attack(s) with the normal -4 for using a weapon in a grapple. You could also start a grapple as normal though, with a touch attack, and if the grapple succeed do damage with iterative grapple checks (using unarmed damage appropriate for your size, as normal). IMO you could also follow those up with your natural attack(s) at BAB-9 as secondary natural attack(s) (or BAB-6 with multiattack). Outside of a grapple you can also follow up iterative attacks with secondary natural attacks, so it seems to me it would work the same in a grapple. With that kind of hit to your BAB and considering all secondary natural attacks do 1/2 str I don't think this is particularely overpowered. The last sentence is also a bit of a mystery, as it provides something of an "out clause" for moving an opponent in a grapple, but states no means of achieving that movement. It sounds like an improved grab allows movement as a regular move action with no checks required, so long as the weight limits are met.That is only meant for when you do a hold at -20. The question of secondary attacks in grapples for beasties actually is answered by omission if you read the description for Rake a couple pages over. Since bears don't get rake, they can only attack with one natural weapon per grapple.Hmm, for balance sake Im just going to regard that as a secondary source. The PHB says this : "Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons." As I said before, you can follow up your iterative attacks with secondary natural attacks outside of a grapple ... so I don't see why that would be different in a grapple. The limitation placed on "two weapons" is clearly meant to prohibit TWF, so I dont think that is relevant. You could limit it to a single extra natural attack I guess. He'd still be pretty poor off though, with a two handed weapon you are doing better base damage with 1 1/2 strength on each iterative attack ... with iterative grapple checks only 1x strength. As for items, I'll go case by case. I don't think something like boots would change over (it's hard to envision that in a way that is not silly)Silly yes, rules legal also yes ... read the draconomicon page 24. I totally agree with you about casters winning the high level war. I do not believe the answer lies in increasing offensive abilities of non-casters. Instead, there needs to be some kind of saving throw or SR factor in play that makes such characters far more resistant to the effects. That makes sense from a fantasy perspective if you ask me, but I can't say I have a solid way to implement it at the moment.For a start remove wildshape, polymorph and shapechange and don't allow divine metamagic. That will at least make sure they can't beat the melee characters at their own game (or in the clerics case at least not in the first round). I mean a bearwarrior can grapple pretty good, but a druid who wildshapes into a huge animal and animal growths himself can do it better. The druid's weak spell list is offset enough by his animal companion. He doesn't really need wildshape, it pushes it way over the top ... and unlike the cleric that isn't necessary to get people to play the class IMO.
Squidmaster 01-26-06, 06:50 PM	That is one nice SRD. I had a link to the zip format one on the official site, but that is way better. Markin' it up for sure. Your comments on iterative attacks with other forms clear up my concerns nicely. I was unclear if you retained those abilities if you didn't have any of your old attack forms remaining, and knew that using natural attacks would not overlap in the normal way. I'm also inclined to agree about using secondary natural attacks in a grapple, but I believe I will require one of those to be the "grapple holder", as that seems to fit the spirit of the TWF mention in the rules. I believe that means the bear would get 2, both presumably at the -9 due to them being secondary when using the unarmed damage in a grapple. Regarding items like boots transforming, WotC contradicts itself in a few places on the website and in books. It's one of those growing concepts clearly. I feel very comfortable ruling as I go with that kind of thing. I already did remove divine metamagic from my game. I didn't think to do it with the others. I think the greatest problem with wildshape is just the Natural Spell feat. There also appear to be some contradictions on the website between the FAQ and the "rules of the game" articles. Those rules of the game polymorph guidelines are potent. I have a player who'd like to play a druid, and likes the avenger variant. Any thoughts on that? Does the Frostrager class stuff stack with Bear Warrior? It seems like I could rule in either direction.
Pinky's brain 01-27-06, 04:34 AM	I'm also inclined to agree about using secondary natural attacks in a grapple, but I believe I will require one of those to be the "grapple holder", as that seems to fit the spirit of the TWF mention in the rules.Had not thought about that, but yeah that fits. I believe that means the bear would get 2, both presumably at the -9 due to them being secondary when using the unarmed damage in a grapple.Unless he took multiattack, but yeah. I already did remove divine metamagic from my game. I didn't think to do it with the others. I think the greatest problem with wildshape is just the Natural Spell feat.It certainly doesn't help, arcane casters can animal growth him too though (or a high level ranger for that matter). There also appear to be some contradictions on the website between the FAQ and the "rules of the game" articles.Apart from the template and human bonus feat/skillpoints thing (who the hell would want to be a human druid anymore?) Id go with the FAQ. I have a player who'd like to play a druid, and likes the avenger variant. Any thoughts on that?Well it speeds the game up by having one less creature to worry about, it's more balanced than the normal druid ... but that isnt saying much :) Does the Frostrager class stuff stack with Bear Warrior? It seems like I could rule in either direction.A bear warrior assumes the bear form "while in rage". Only "the ability score bonuses granted by rage or frenzy are replaced". He is still raging, so he still triggers the frozen berserker abilities.
Squidmaster 01-27-06, 12:17 PM	Ok, I have one more... What about the "rend" ability? For the Frostrager specifically, this kicks in whenever he hits with 2 or more unarmed strikes. Now, techinically that means grapples would trigger it most of the time, but that doesn't somehow seem to fit the spirit of this rule. I could see allowing the improved unarmed damage to translate over to the bear form certainly, but the rend is a tricky spot. So, Frostrager probably makes for a better bear-barian addition than the reaping mauler, eh?