Anima Mage at 2nd or 3rd level? Is this legit? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Anima Mage at 2nd or 3rd level? Is this legit? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
smrtgmp
03-29-06, 03:00 AM Ok. I was flipping through my copy of ToM and something caught my eye. Unless I'm mistaken, its possible to meet the prerequisites of the Anima Mage (pg 50) at 1st level, allowing you to get into the PrC at 2nd level.

How?

Start with a human enchanter (using the varient from UA that gives intimidate as a class skill) and pick up the following feats (two of which will have to come from flaws): Prococious Apprentice, Bind Visage, Improved Bind Visage, and the metamagic feat of your choice.

For those of you that dont want to play an enchanter, you play a wizard, but your access to the PrC will be slightly delayed, as you need to aquire intimidate as a class skill. As such, you'll need to pick up skill knowledge (UA pg 81). That means you'll have to wait till level 3 to get all the feats you need, but since you automatically get a feat at 3rd level, you could pick up anima mage after only two levels of wizard.

Sample build 1:

Human
1) Varient Enchanter 1(Pracocious Apprentice, Bind Visage, Improved Bind Visage F, Fell Drain F)
2) Anima Mage 1
3) Anima Mage 2 (Metamagic)
4) Anima Mage 3
5) Anima Mage 4
6) Anima Mage 5 (Metamagic)
7) Anima Mage 6
8) Anima Mage 7
9) Anima Mage 8 (Iron Will)
10) Anima Mage 9
11) Anima Mage 10
12) Incantatrix 1 (Craft Contingent Spell, Metamagic)
13) Incantatrix 2
14) Incantatrix 3
15) Incantatrix 4 (Metamagic, Craft Wand of Staff (for use with metamagic spell trigger))
16) Incantatrix 5
17) Incantatrix 6
18) Incantatrix 7 (Metamagic x 2)
19) Incantatrix 8
20) Incantatrix 9

I went with incantatrix for the metamagic synergy. Only problem with that is giving up the 3rd school of magic. Of course, that can be alleviated via the string of feats from Lost Empires of Faerun, but that will take up 3 feats (not that this build is that short on feats, given all incantatrix gives you). I know giving up the level 10 incantatrix ability is rough, but the level 10 anima mage ability is just nuts, and seems far too good to pass up (especially if you play with action points as you'll be able to use it more than once per day if the need arises).

If you dont want to specialise, the following would work:

Human
1) Wizard 1 (Prococious Apprentice, Bind Visage, Improved Bind Visage F, Skill Knowledge (Intimidate) F)
2) Wizard 2
3) Anima Mage 1 (Metamagic)
4) Anima Mage 2
5) Anima Mage 3
6) Anima Mage 4
7) Anima Mage 5
8) Anima Mage 6
9) Anima Mage 7
10) Anima Mage 8
11) Anima Mage 9
12) Anima Mage 10
13+) whatever

Now, I understand why prococious apprentice wont allow you to qualify for most dual progression PrCs early, but you never actually gain spells from binding a visage, so technically the loophole is still open for this PrC. Granted, you lose out on some of the PrCs oomph as you arent a full fledged binder, but who cares if all you wanted to be in the first place was a spellcaster?

So, any thoughts? I'm sure you guys can make this better. If you dont want to go incantatrix there are a lot of other solid options. For instance, you could pick up 2 levels of fatespinner and go all the way through IotSFV. That would certianly be a decent 9 levels with which to finish the build.
Kresalak
03-29-06, 07:23 AM Anima Mage advances spellcasting, and once it gives you a 2nd level spell, Precocious Apprentice gives you an additional 2nd level spell slot. Since a PrC cannot qualify you for itself, you no longer qualify as an Anima Mage and lose the benefits of the class. You could, however, qualify for it at 3rd level, then take it at 4th, allowing you to be a Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10/PrC 7. Perfect for Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.
fnord
03-29-06, 09:30 AM Since a PrC cannot qualify you for itself, you no longer qualify as an Anima Mage and lose the benefits of the class.

Source?

I do agree that using Precocious Apprentice to qualify for a PRC is tacky, and I would not be suprised that if WotC issues a Southern Magician "it just doesn't work" style statement.
Todd
03-29-06, 10:18 AM The Precocious Apprentice thing was solidly argued to not work by RAW in a previous thread by Mommy was an Ork. I can’t remember all the details, but it’s widely accepted here that PA just doesn’t work for dual progression PrCs.

You also have a problem with the Binder stuff. The Bind Visage feat might let you meet the pre-req for Animia Mage, but the PrC itself will not grant you Binder levels if you don’t already have them. It only increases existing Binder levels ... which your build doesn’t have.

Still Wizard 3 / Binder 1 is a solid way to enter a dual progression PrC, especially one so powerful as this.
Kresalak
03-29-06, 11:31 AM Source?

I do agree that using Precocious Apprentice to qualify for a PRC is tacky, and I would not be suprised that if WotC issues a Southern Magician "it just doesn't work" style statement.
I believe it's on page 16 of Complete Warrior, the infamous "page 16 clause". I'll check it out when I get home, unless someone does so before me.
smrtgmp
03-29-06, 11:53 AM The Precocious Apprentice thing was solidly argued to not work by RAW in a previous thread by Mommy was an Ork. I can’t remember all the details, but it’s widely accepted here that PA just doesn’t work for dual progression PrCs.It wont work to qualify for a PrC with dual spellcasting progression, because once you gain access to 2nd level cleric spells you lose your 2nd level wizard slot. The binder doesnt get spells.
You also have a problem with the Binder stuff. The Bind Visage feat might let you meet the pre-req for Animia Mage, but the PrC itself will not grant you Binder levels if you don’t already have them. It only increases existing Binder levels ... which your build doesn’t have.I'm aware of this. I said as much in the OP. And like I said, who really cares if all you want to be in the first place is a spellcaster.
Still Wizard 3 / Binder 1 is a solid way to enter a dual progression PrC, especially one so powerful as this.Why not axe the binder level so as not to lose a CL? I suppose as far as 1 level dips go its not too shabby, but I'd rather lose nothing.

Anima Mage advances spellcasting, and once it gives you a 2nd level spell, Precocious Apprentice gives you an additional 2nd level spell slot. Since a PrC cannot qualify you for itself, you no longer qualify as an Anima Mage and lose the benefits of the class. You could, however, qualify for it at 3rd level, then take it at 4th, allowing you to be a Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10/PrC 7. Perfect for Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.Oh well. I guess getting into it at 4th level is still pretty tight.
WrathoftheDm
03-29-06, 12:10 PM That is incorrect. A prestige class can qualify you for itself. Assuming you've already qualified to get into it. Page 16 says "It's possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies for the prestige class... If the character no longer meets the requirements for the prestige class, he or she loses the the benefit of any class feature or other special abilities granted by the class." That's it. It doesn't say that a class cannot continue to qualify you for itself if you have already met its requirements.

If the prestige class grants you the abilities that allow you to qualify, you suffer no ill effects because you still meet the requirements. For instance, if you need to be able to cast 3rd level spells and you are level drained to the point you only have 4 wiz levels in addition to a prestige class that requires you to cast 3rd level spells to enter, you are fine so long as the prestige class improves your spellcasting to a point you can cast 3rd level spells.

And no it doesn't work. But not for the reason you think. The reason MT doesn't work is because it's wording says when you get that 2nd level spells (from any source, mind you) PA turns into a bonus 2nd level slot. When you get that 2nd level cleric spell PA turns into a 2nd level divine slot and it no longer provides you with the necessary 2nd level arcane spell. Binder does not provide you with 2nd level spells so you retain the benefit of the feat until you have 2nd level arcane spells by virtue of the anima mage which you still qualify for.

However anima mage does say it grants you binding as if you gained a level in binder. When you gain this you lose the bind vestige feat but you are treated as a first level binder. Bind vestige says that if you gain a method of binding other than the feat you lose the feat, such as gaining a level of binder. Since you lose Bind vestige you no longer qualify for Improved Bind Vestige. So you can no longer bind 2nd level vestiges and you no longer qualify for the anima mage unless you could somehow immediately acquire Improved Binding.
smrtgmp
03-29-06, 12:52 PM However anima mage does say it grants you binding as if you gained a level in binder. When you gain this you lose the bind vestige feat but you are treated as a first level binder. Bind vestige says that if you gain a method of binding other than the feat you lose the feat, such as gaining a level of binder.Actually, it says "If you become a binder after taking this feat, you lose its benefit." If you never actually took levels of binder, would that apply? The only other limitation is that you cannot take the feat if you already have the ability to bind vestiges through other means.
Since you lose Bind vestige you no longer qualify for Improved Bind Vestige. So you can no longer bind 2nd level vestiges and you no longer qualify for the anima mage unless you could somehow immediately acquire Improved Binding.But I already had improved bind visage, and it lacks the qualifier that is included in Bind Visage.

edit: Nevermind. In improved bind vestige it says "when you bind a vestige using the bind vestige feat..." If you can no longer use bind vestige, then the improved one wouldnt be much help. ;)
WrathoftheDm
03-29-06, 01:45 PM You have a point. It does say "If you become a binder after taking this feat, you lose its benefits." So the fact that anima mage improves a zero score to effective soul binder 1 and higher seems to be irrelevant in regard to the feat because you are not a binder...

Touche! Then yes it works. Certainly not in the spirit of the rules, since I'm pretty sure they meant 'binder' as you would use 'spellcaster' as a reference to someone who has the ability to bind rather than the class. Though they should have said "soul binder". So it does seem to be RAW.

Also, I think you would get an effective soul binder 10 and still keep your Bind Vestige. Since Anima Mage also says your Soul binding effectiveness is your binder levels and you anima mage levels combined. So 0 + 10 still equals 10. Meaning you would get 2 5th level vestiges and 1 3rd level vestige.
smrtgmp
03-29-06, 08:14 PM Interesting. I dont think I would ever actually try to use this build in a game. I just thought I saw some interesting synergy and was wondering if it worked.

I agree that its probably not in the spirit of the rules. I also agree that using prococious apprentice to qualify for a PrC early is a bit cheap. But hey, its the CO boards. A vast majority of the builds here shamelessly exploit some loop hole or another. ;)
pyro_cat
03-29-06, 09:03 PM It absolutely doesn't work, according to CustServ. I emailed them about this ages ago, the day I got the book.

The problem is that when you gain levels of Anima Mage, you lose the benefits of those feats, and only have one BL. Since that doesn't net you 2nd-level vestiges, you don't qualify anymore.
Otto the Bugbear
03-29-06, 09:51 PM I agree with PyroCat.

Minimum you'd need
Binder 1 with Improved Binding &
Caster class with Precocious Apprentice

But, following the Commandments of Practical Optimization, you'd need
Binder 1 with Improved Binding &
Caster class able to cast 2nd level spells without resorting to PA trickery.

Cheers

Otto :)
pad300
03-29-06, 11:11 PM I agree with PyroCat.

Minimum you'd need
Binder 1 with Improved Binding &
Caster class with Precocious Apprentice

But, following the Commandments of Practical Optimization, you'd need
Binder 1 with Improved Binding &
Caster class able to cast 2nd level spells without resorting to PA trickery.

Cheers

Otto :)

This discussion has already been had, here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=605510

The conclusion was that you could end up as an anima mage by using the bind vestige and improved bind vestige feats, in conjunction with the improved binding feat, however you would have to enter anima mage at a level that gave you a feat to use on improved binding. In practice, this implied a minimum of 6th level. At that point, you could use a psychic reformation to replace the bind vestige and improved bind vestige feats, without screwing yourself up...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
smrtgmp 03-29-06, 03:00 AM	Ok. I was flipping through my copy of ToM and something caught my eye. Unless I'm mistaken, its possible to meet the prerequisites of the Anima Mage (pg 50) at 1st level, allowing you to get into the PrC at 2nd level. How? Start with a human enchanter (using the varient from UA that gives intimidate as a class skill) and pick up the following feats (two of which will have to come from flaws): Prococious Apprentice, Bind Visage, Improved Bind Visage, and the metamagic feat of your choice. For those of you that dont want to play an enchanter, you play a wizard, but your access to the PrC will be slightly delayed, as you need to aquire intimidate as a class skill. As such, you'll need to pick up skill knowledge (UA pg 81). That means you'll have to wait till level 3 to get all the feats you need, but since you automatically get a feat at 3rd level, you could pick up anima mage after only two levels of wizard. Sample build 1: Human 1) Varient Enchanter 1(Pracocious Apprentice, Bind Visage, Improved Bind Visage F, Fell Drain F) 2) Anima Mage 1 3) Anima Mage 2 (Metamagic) 4) Anima Mage 3 5) Anima Mage 4 6) Anima Mage 5 (Metamagic) 7) Anima Mage 6 8) Anima Mage 7 9) Anima Mage 8 (Iron Will) 10) Anima Mage 9 11) Anima Mage 10 12) Incantatrix 1 (Craft Contingent Spell, Metamagic) 13) Incantatrix 2 14) Incantatrix 3 15) Incantatrix 4 (Metamagic, Craft Wand of Staff (for use with metamagic spell trigger)) 16) Incantatrix 5 17) Incantatrix 6 18) Incantatrix 7 (Metamagic x 2) 19) Incantatrix 8 20) Incantatrix 9 I went with incantatrix for the metamagic synergy. Only problem with that is giving up the 3rd school of magic. Of course, that can be alleviated via the string of feats from Lost Empires of Faerun, but that will take up 3 feats (not that this build is that short on feats, given all incantatrix gives you). I know giving up the level 10 incantatrix ability is rough, but the level 10 anima mage ability is just nuts, and seems far too good to pass up (especially if you play with action points as you'll be able to use it more than once per day if the need arises). If you dont want to specialise, the following would work: Human 1) Wizard 1 (Prococious Apprentice, Bind Visage, Improved Bind Visage F, Skill Knowledge (Intimidate) F) 2) Wizard 2 3) Anima Mage 1 (Metamagic) 4) Anima Mage 2 5) Anima Mage 3 6) Anima Mage 4 7) Anima Mage 5 8) Anima Mage 6 9) Anima Mage 7 10) Anima Mage 8 11) Anima Mage 9 12) Anima Mage 10 13+) whatever Now, I understand why prococious apprentice wont allow you to qualify for most dual progression PrCs early, but you never actually gain spells from binding a visage, so technically the loophole is still open for this PrC. Granted, you lose out on some of the PrCs oomph as you arent a full fledged binder, but who cares if all you wanted to be in the first place was a spellcaster? So, any thoughts? I'm sure you guys can make this better. If you dont want to go incantatrix there are a lot of other solid options. For instance, you could pick up 2 levels of fatespinner and go all the way through IotSFV. That would certianly be a decent 9 levels with which to finish the build.
Kresalak 03-29-06, 07:23 AM	Anima Mage advances spellcasting, and once it gives you a 2nd level spell, Precocious Apprentice gives you an additional 2nd level spell slot. Since a PrC cannot qualify you for itself, you no longer qualify as an Anima Mage and lose the benefits of the class. You could, however, qualify for it at 3rd level, then take it at 4th, allowing you to be a Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10/PrC 7. Perfect for Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.
fnord 03-29-06, 09:30 AM	Since a PrC cannot qualify you for itself, you no longer qualify as an Anima Mage and lose the benefits of the class. Source? I do agree that using Precocious Apprentice to qualify for a PRC is tacky, and I would not be suprised that if WotC issues a Southern Magician "it just doesn't work" style statement.
Todd 03-29-06, 10:18 AM	The Precocious Apprentice thing was solidly argued to not work by RAW in a previous thread by Mommy was an Ork. I can’t remember all the details, but it’s widely accepted here that PA just doesn’t work for dual progression PrCs. You also have a problem with the Binder stuff. The Bind Visage feat might let you meet the pre-req for Animia Mage, but the PrC itself will not grant you Binder levels if you don’t already have them. It only increases existing Binder levels ... which your build doesn’t have. Still Wizard 3 / Binder 1 is a solid way to enter a dual progression PrC, especially one so powerful as this.
Kresalak 03-29-06, 11:31 AM	Source? I do agree that using Precocious Apprentice to qualify for a PRC is tacky, and I would not be suprised that if WotC issues a Southern Magician "it just doesn't work" style statement. I believe it's on page 16 of Complete Warrior, the infamous "page 16 clause". I'll check it out when I get home, unless someone does so before me.
smrtgmp 03-29-06, 11:53 AM	The Precocious Apprentice thing was solidly argued to not work by RAW in a previous thread by Mommy was an Ork. I can’t remember all the details, but it’s widely accepted here that PA just doesn’t work for dual progression PrCs.It wont work to qualify for a PrC with dual spellcasting progression, because once you gain access to 2nd level cleric spells you lose your 2nd level wizard slot. The binder doesnt get spells. You also have a problem with the Binder stuff. The Bind Visage feat might let you meet the pre-req for Animia Mage, but the PrC itself will not grant you Binder levels if you don’t already have them. It only increases existing Binder levels ... which your build doesn’t have.I'm aware of this. I said as much in the OP. And like I said, who really cares if all you want to be in the first place is a spellcaster. Still Wizard 3 / Binder 1 is a solid way to enter a dual progression PrC, especially one so powerful as this.Why not axe the binder level so as not to lose a CL? I suppose as far as 1 level dips go its not too shabby, but I'd rather lose nothing. Anima Mage advances spellcasting, and once it gives you a 2nd level spell, Precocious Apprentice gives you an additional 2nd level spell slot. Since a PrC cannot qualify you for itself, you no longer qualify as an Anima Mage and lose the benefits of the class. You could, however, qualify for it at 3rd level, then take it at 4th, allowing you to be a Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10/PrC 7. Perfect for Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.Oh well. I guess getting into it at 4th level is still pretty tight.
WrathoftheDm 03-29-06, 12:10 PM	That is incorrect. A prestige class can qualify you for itself. Assuming you've already qualified to get into it. Page 16 says "It's possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies for the prestige class... If the character no longer meets the requirements for the prestige class, he or she loses the the benefit of any class feature or other special abilities granted by the class." That's it. It doesn't say that a class cannot continue to qualify you for itself if you have already met its requirements. If the prestige class grants you the abilities that allow you to qualify, you suffer no ill effects because you still meet the requirements. For instance, if you need to be able to cast 3rd level spells and you are level drained to the point you only have 4 wiz levels in addition to a prestige class that requires you to cast 3rd level spells to enter, you are fine so long as the prestige class improves your spellcasting to a point you can cast 3rd level spells. And no it doesn't work. But not for the reason you think. The reason MT doesn't work is because it's wording says when you get that 2nd level spells (from any source, mind you) PA turns into a bonus 2nd level slot. When you get that 2nd level cleric spell PA turns into a 2nd level divine slot and it no longer provides you with the necessary 2nd level arcane spell. Binder does not provide you with 2nd level spells so you retain the benefit of the feat until you have 2nd level arcane spells by virtue of the anima mage which you still qualify for. However anima mage does say it grants you binding as if you gained a level in binder. When you gain this you lose the bind vestige feat but you are treated as a first level binder. Bind vestige says that if you gain a method of binding other than the feat you lose the feat, such as gaining a level of binder. Since you lose Bind vestige you no longer qualify for Improved Bind Vestige. So you can no longer bind 2nd level vestiges and you no longer qualify for the anima mage unless you could somehow immediately acquire Improved Binding.
smrtgmp 03-29-06, 12:52 PM	However anima mage does say it grants you binding as if you gained a level in binder. When you gain this you lose the bind vestige feat but you are treated as a first level binder. Bind vestige says that if you gain a method of binding other than the feat you lose the feat, such as gaining a level of binder.Actually, it says "If you become a binder after taking this feat, you lose its benefit." If you never actually took levels of binder, would that apply? The only other limitation is that you cannot take the feat if you already have the ability to bind vestiges through other means. Since you lose Bind vestige you no longer qualify for Improved Bind Vestige. So you can no longer bind 2nd level vestiges and you no longer qualify for the anima mage unless you could somehow immediately acquire Improved Binding.But I already had improved bind visage, and it lacks the qualifier that is included in Bind Visage. edit: Nevermind. In improved bind vestige it says "when you bind a vestige using the bind vestige feat..." If you can no longer use bind vestige, then the improved one wouldnt be much help. ;)
WrathoftheDm 03-29-06, 01:45 PM	You have a point. It does say "If you become a binder after taking this feat, you lose its benefits." So the fact that anima mage improves a zero score to effective soul binder 1 and higher seems to be irrelevant in regard to the feat because you are not a binder... Touche! Then yes it works. Certainly not in the spirit of the rules, since I'm pretty sure they meant 'binder' as you would use 'spellcaster' as a reference to someone who has the ability to bind rather than the class. Though they should have said "soul binder". So it does seem to be RAW. Also, I think you would get an effective soul binder 10 and still keep your Bind Vestige. Since Anima Mage also says your Soul binding effectiveness is your binder levels and you anima mage levels combined. So 0 + 10 still equals 10. Meaning you would get 2 5th level vestiges and 1 3rd level vestige.
smrtgmp 03-29-06, 08:14 PM	Interesting. I dont think I would ever actually try to use this build in a game. I just thought I saw some interesting synergy and was wondering if it worked. I agree that its probably not in the spirit of the rules. I also agree that using prococious apprentice to qualify for a PrC early is a bit cheap. But hey, its the CO boards. A vast majority of the builds here shamelessly exploit some loop hole or another. ;)
pyro_cat 03-29-06, 09:03 PM	It absolutely doesn't work, according to CustServ. I emailed them about this ages ago, the day I got the book. The problem is that when you gain levels of Anima Mage, you lose the benefits of those feats, and only have one BL. Since that doesn't net you 2nd-level vestiges, you don't qualify anymore.
Otto the Bugbear 03-29-06, 09:51 PM	I agree with PyroCat. Minimum you'd need Binder 1 with Improved Binding & Caster class with Precocious Apprentice But, following the Commandments of Practical Optimization, you'd need Binder 1 with Improved Binding & Caster class able to cast 2nd level spells without resorting to PA trickery. Cheers Otto :)
pad300 03-29-06, 11:11 PM	I agree with PyroCat. Minimum you'd need Binder 1 with Improved Binding & Caster class with Precocious Apprentice But, following the Commandments of Practical Optimization, you'd need Binder 1 with Improved Binding & Caster class able to cast 2nd level spells without resorting to PA trickery. Cheers Otto :) This discussion has already been had, here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=605510 The conclusion was that you could end up as an anima mage by using the bind vestige and improved bind vestige feats, in conjunction with the improved binding feat, however you would have to enter anima mage at a level that gave you a feat to use on improved binding. In practice, this implied a minimum of 6th level. At that point, you could use a psychic reformation to replace the bind vestige and improved bind vestige feats, without screwing yourself up...