Animal Druid [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animal Druid [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Knucklehead
03-16-04, 12:46 PM Hey everybody,

Disclaimer: I concede I probably don’t have the books or know the specifics as the majority of you. Also, I'm not looking to make this concept into something crazy. I want to keep it as simple as possible.

Okay guys and gals, here is the concept (I admit this is probably not original):

There is this druid who is a wild loner type (human barb; along those lines). Upon reaching the ability to wild shape he revels in the metamorphosis and acquires an affinity for the animal form (let’s be cliché and say wolf). He spends longer and longer amounts of time as the animal, rationalizing that Mother Nature has selected this form to reflect his inner self. To make it easy, his social skills are poor, he has no family ties, and there is no organized druid sect (like old 2e).

Let’s assume the character is 10th level, which offers the wild shape 4/day at 10hr stretches.

Question 1: can the druid simply stay as an animal form provided he has the duration? For example does the druid have to change back to human at the end of the 10hrs and then change back?

Eventually the druid will regress into the feral wolf. At this point he will likely multi-class into a thief or horizon-walker.

Question 2: what are some quality feats that could enhance this concept? I heard mention of a feat called Natural Spell that will allow the druid to cast while in wild shape.

Question 3: what are some the methods to get around the communication barrier? Specifically I don’t what to speak, but a project thought/empathy type of communication would be ideal. Although the character-concept may refrain from communicating with the two-legs, the druid will want to adventure and he would want to be able to communicate with the group.

One final note, I know in theory the wolf form could wear special barding and some magical items. I have no intention of using the tools of the hairless apes on the character.

Thanks in advance for entertaining the thought!
Knucklehead
Prism
03-16-04, 12:56 PM If you want to choose just the one form and stay with it then one way of going would be Animal Lord from masters of the wild. You are not restricted by changes per day nor by duration but you can only choose from one type of form - in your example wolf lord. You could spend all day in wolf shape.

Natural spell is in the PHB 3.5 and lets you cast while in wildshape
john_bakken
03-16-04, 01:06 PM Some answers to your questions:

1. As long as your 10 hours doesn't end, then you can stay in wofl form all day. Every 8 hours, you reactivate your wild shape ability.

2. The natural spell feat is great. You could also choose improved natural attack (bite) for extra damage, but see the comment below.

3. I am still trying to work this out myself. Usually, I have to try and pantomine. Since I'm usually in animal form, I don't use alot of level 1 spells, and usually have a speak with animal spell ready to cast on a party member at important times.

Note: You mentioned levels of thief and horizon walker. I woud highly recommend Nature's Warrior from the Complete Warrior. From a roleplaying perspective, it fits great with your character, stacks the wildshape ability, and has some other cool featuresfor you to choose from. You can also look at warshaper from the same book, a few cool abilities, that make the improved natural attack feat unnecessary.
beavis123
03-16-04, 01:25 PM You almost sound like a druid who is either struck with lycanthropy or born of a lycanthrope.

That is also a possibilty.
Skulan
03-16-04, 01:31 PM If you're allowed to use Faerun stuff you could make him a Ghostwise halfling to start, so you could communicate telepathically. I think they get something along those lines, though I don't have the book in front of me at the moment.

-Skulan
TinManFan
03-16-04, 01:56 PM Well, you could take the feat that lets you talk to other animals of your kind. Get a wolffie (RURF!) and talk to it and if you have a ranger in your party, he can talk to wolffie (Rurf). Now that's a roundabout way, I admit.

Also could get a celestial version of the Animal Companion if you're good and you blow an exalted feat. They get toungues so they can talk for you if the ranger idea is too roundabout. Plus exalted Druids make the best spell casting candidate for Vow of Poverty. Intuitive Strike, the Exalted Multiattack, Celestial Summoning. Plus if you're shifting a lot, your magic items won't be much of a concern.

Natural Spell is frikkin great too if you wanna cast toungues (Think Druids get it). Or have an item that gives it to you. For your shape shifting, can't the Shifter PrC stay in the different forms longer than usual? May not have the punch they used to, but still a good choice...
Knucklehead
03-16-04, 01:56 PM Thanks for the suggestions so far. I have access to all the books listed so I'll poke around a bit. The Lycanthrope concept, though related, is different than what I had in mind. I don't plan to switch back and forth. He will effectively be a wolf in most regards. Ultimately this character will lose his human behavior. He will be an adventurer so there will be some aspects that remain, like communication and spell casting. When he retires (so to speak) he will regress fully into a common, long-lived wolf.

I am excited about the Wolf Lord mentioned earlier. I imagine him having a pack of wolves. I can envision him pacing back and forth while a low growl reachs through the woods. All the while the winds begin to stir and dark clouds form overhead. Now that's a druid!

Magic Fang, Greater looks to have a decent duration to handle the combat aspect. Are there any other good combat spells to counter the lack of armor and weapons?
Prism
03-16-04, 02:24 PM Originally posted by Knucklehead
Magic Fang, Greater looks to have a decent duration to handle the combat aspect. Are there any other good combat spells to counter the lack of armor and weapons?

Wildshape changes your type into animal so you can follow this up with a number of different spells. Natures favour from masters of the wild gives bonus's to attack and damage, Greater magic fang and animal growth are all good buffs.

You can keep certain magic items in your new form, but I agree too many looks a bit silly and it doesn't suit your feral character. However consider the wild armour enhancement from the DMG as it isn't visible in animal form but the armour is still effective. Good armour for this is dragonskin or my favourite darkleaf from the Arms and Equipment guide
inci
03-16-04, 03:12 PM I would not recommend Animal Lord, it is by far inferior* to a Druid who stays in one shape all the time (as noted above, just 'restart' in time / or talk with your DM that you just forgo the needed number of WildShapes/day but stay in animalform all the time)
Druid6/NaturesWarrior4/xxx (either more Druid or Warshaper4 if you don't mind losing casterlevels)

Druid16/NaturesWarrior4 brings you a BAB of +16/+9/+6/+1 and CL 18
After all this is just the mechanic behind it, your concept can ignore all this and pretend to be an Animal, but you have all those ability's and spells to back you up.
Interesting spells are definatly the classic druid spells like GMF, the buffing spells(even if nerved in 3.5) and summoning some fellow animals. check the druid handbook on this board for more ideas.

to question 3: get a 'torc of animal speech'(MotW), have a mage cast telepathic bond prior to important situations. Sadly, speak with Animals has target 'Personal'. A permanent Tongues won't help you either since you are just not able to talk in Animal Form (it's not on the Druids list anyway, so you'd have to pay a mage)
Just try to talk your DM into allowing you to being able to normally communicate in Wildshaped form (maybe spend a feat on it). You are giving up alot of the Druids possibilitys after all and there are some PrC's that grant an animalshape and allow you to speak normally (e.g. Sentinel of Bharrai from BoED)

*exception to this is probably the Legendary Tiger you get from CatLord10

what animal do you prefer atm? Wolf? Bear? Mice?
Prism
03-16-04, 03:53 PM Originally posted by inci
I would not recommend Animal Lord, it is by far inferior* to a Druid

Inferior, technically yes (straight druid being one of the strongest classes) but maybe not as much as you think. I am playing an animal lord at the moment and another party member is a straight druid. We are 8th level, we can both wildshape into a brown bear, we both have the same BAB however I am a considerably better melee combatant than he is whereas he is a much better spellcaster and far more flexible with his wildshape. In the end the flexibilty and casting power of the druid will win out however Knucklehead wants to stay as a single type of animal so then really it just boils down to caster versus combatant

Animal lord has a nice theme to it and its still a valid class to min/max even if not the best. You get a mixed bag of abilites, some good (+2 inherent bonus to a stat), some average (+4 to a skill check). The animal summoning is in line with a druids summon natures ally (Cat lord gets dire tiger a couple of levels earlier) and the far sense/speach is great for wilderness campaigns when scouting.

My current character is druid3/barb2/bearlord3. The main difference between this and the druid is that you can do a lot with those two extra levels to take the focus of the character in a different direction. I am planing to take natures warrior at 10th level mainly for the constrict ability in my case, by other animal lords will get a different usage out of it I'm sure
inci
03-16-04, 05:29 PM You got a point, i reviewed the class and think it is a valid and good choice for this type of character.
I don't like that you need to invest two feats to meet the requirements of Animal Lord without being able to use them properly (since you lack CL's) and another one that only makes sense when taking Wolf, Bear or Bird.
You could easily invest those 3 feats into combat-oriented ones when you stick to straight druid.
Druid3/Fighter1/Barb1 looks kinda interesting when you go for BearLord and leaves you with rage and a fighter feat.
inci
03-16-04, 05:34 PM bleh, double post
Prism
03-16-04, 05:57 PM Originally posted by inci
I don't like that you need to invest two feats to meet the requirements of Animal Lord without being able to use them properly (since you lack CL's) and another one that only makes sense when taking Wolf, Bear or Bird.

Tell me about it :rolleyes: . We are playing a wilderness campaign with a few animals around but those two feats don't really work out even for a full caster due to the high hit dice of animals. That is certainly a drawback of the PrC. Maybe there will be a proper update in a future book
Knucklehead
03-16-04, 07:14 PM I agree with the feat prerequisites. They are awefully expensive in my opinion. Although the concept of the PrC would fit this character there are some areas that are not perfect. I'm not trying to min/max, but I can't rationalize Animal Control or Animal Defiance as being worthwhile. Also, I'm not to keen on the ability to switch the party to wolves. I think this character would find that disrespectful to both species. This melds with the principle that this character will not switch back and forth. He feels he was born human until Mother Nature gave him the power to change into his "true form". This statement pushes me towards the Animal Lord since the descriptions intertwine, however I feel the pro's don't outway the con's. I think the Animal Lord is more of a totem spirit not a wolf trapped in a humans body.

The first totem power is redundant. If you are a wolf you get scent, right? Why then would the character get Scent? To use in human form I assume, which this character won't be in.
While the second totem can be worthwhile, this character is not a bloodhound. I would say the +4 bonus would add to track, and the basic wolf is already a decent (can still be improved) tracker.
The third totem I can't argue, it is a good one and I think it is fitting for the wolf. When trying to decide on stats I placed a high precedence for CON.

Animal perception and animal farspeech kick@SS. Using a pack mentality this might swing my final vote towards this PrC. I don't have access to CW until our next game since a buddy has the book. I'll have to look at the Nature's Warrior and compare.
Prism
03-16-04, 07:27 PM Originally posted by Knucklehead
IThe first totem power is redundant. If you are a wolf you get scent, right? Why then would the character get Scent? To use in human form I assume, which this character won't be in.

You only get bonus feats and extraordinary attacks in wildshape (in 3.5 at least) and therefore no scent. Because of the change in wildshape between 3 and 3.5 this totem actually becomes more important. Normally you would only get the track bonus feat which is a nice way of qualifying for natures warrior, plus the wolf trip ability
Knucklehead
03-16-04, 07:43 PM By god Prism you are right! Another reason to keep an eye on this PrC. I want scent damn it! What self-respecting wolf doesn't have scent?

Can you give me any legal highlights of the Nature's Warrior? No details just concept?
inci
03-17-04, 07:37 AM Natures Warrior: Full BAB, full wildshape progression, spellcasting progression every even level. A bonus class ability every odd level (things like Fast Healing, DR and various other stuff). I'd say lesser Wildshape from AnimalLord qualifys together with the Track feat.

Warshaper: 3/4 BAB, no spellcasting progression, no wildshape progression, giving imunity to crits, improved Stats, more reach, fast healing, etc. Lesser Wildshape qualifys

Druid1-6/NW1-2/Druid7-14/NW3-4/Druid15-16
you could take Scent as Feat if you want it

Ranger1/Druid1-2/Fighter1-2/WolfLord1-3/NW1/Wolflord4-10/whatever4
Ranger1/Druid1-2/Fighter1-2/WolfLord1-3/WS1-4/WolfLord4-10/whatever1

The Druid still stays the better tracker due to his superior Skillpoints
Knucklehead
03-17-04, 01:19 PM Thanks for the interest fellas. Once I get my paws on the CW I'll make a final decision. I made two first drafts, one a level 10 druid the other a 5Drd/5AnL. Honestly I liked the straight druid better. Does anyone know if Nature's Warrior has Intimidate as a class skill?

How would you maximize a pack of wolves? The character and the companion can share spells. At least the companion will be a reasonable combatant. I was thinking of using Awaken, but the XP cost is too high. How can I get a reasonably good fighting crew that is more than just fodder.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Knucklehead 03-16-04, 12:46 PM	Hey everybody, Disclaimer: I concede I probably don’t have the books or know the specifics as the majority of you. Also, I'm not looking to make this concept into something crazy. I want to keep it as simple as possible. Okay guys and gals, here is the concept (I admit this is probably not original): There is this druid who is a wild loner type (human barb; along those lines). Upon reaching the ability to wild shape he revels in the metamorphosis and acquires an affinity for the animal form (let’s be cliché and say wolf). He spends longer and longer amounts of time as the animal, rationalizing that Mother Nature has selected this form to reflect his inner self. To make it easy, his social skills are poor, he has no family ties, and there is no organized druid sect (like old 2e). Let’s assume the character is 10th level, which offers the wild shape 4/day at 10hr stretches. Question 1: can the druid simply stay as an animal form provided he has the duration? For example does the druid have to change back to human at the end of the 10hrs and then change back? Eventually the druid will regress into the feral wolf. At this point he will likely multi-class into a thief or horizon-walker. Question 2: what are some quality feats that could enhance this concept? I heard mention of a feat called Natural Spell that will allow the druid to cast while in wild shape. Question 3: what are some the methods to get around the communication barrier? Specifically I don’t what to speak, but a project thought/empathy type of communication would be ideal. Although the character-concept may refrain from communicating with the two-legs, the druid will want to adventure and he would want to be able to communicate with the group. One final note, I know in theory the wolf form could wear special barding and some magical items. I have no intention of using the tools of the hairless apes on the character. Thanks in advance for entertaining the thought! Knucklehead
Prism 03-16-04, 12:56 PM	If you want to choose just the one form and stay with it then one way of going would be Animal Lord from masters of the wild. You are not restricted by changes per day nor by duration but you can only choose from one type of form - in your example wolf lord. You could spend all day in wolf shape. Natural spell is in the PHB 3.5 and lets you cast while in wildshape
john_bakken 03-16-04, 01:06 PM	Some answers to your questions: 1. As long as your 10 hours doesn't end, then you can stay in wofl form all day. Every 8 hours, you reactivate your wild shape ability. 2. The natural spell feat is great. You could also choose improved natural attack (bite) for extra damage, but see the comment below. 3. I am still trying to work this out myself. Usually, I have to try and pantomine. Since I'm usually in animal form, I don't use alot of level 1 spells, and usually have a speak with animal spell ready to cast on a party member at important times. Note: You mentioned levels of thief and horizon walker. I woud highly recommend Nature's Warrior from the Complete Warrior. From a roleplaying perspective, it fits great with your character, stacks the wildshape ability, and has some other cool featuresfor you to choose from. You can also look at warshaper from the same book, a few cool abilities, that make the improved natural attack feat unnecessary.
beavis123 03-16-04, 01:25 PM	You almost sound like a druid who is either struck with lycanthropy or born of a lycanthrope. That is also a possibilty.
Skulan 03-16-04, 01:31 PM	If you're allowed to use Faerun stuff you could make him a Ghostwise halfling to start, so you could communicate telepathically. I think they get something along those lines, though I don't have the book in front of me at the moment. -Skulan
TinManFan 03-16-04, 01:56 PM	Well, you could take the feat that lets you talk to other animals of your kind. Get a wolffie (RURF!) and talk to it and if you have a ranger in your party, he can talk to wolffie (Rurf). Now that's a roundabout way, I admit. Also could get a celestial version of the Animal Companion if you're good and you blow an exalted feat. They get toungues so they can talk for you if the ranger idea is too roundabout. Plus exalted Druids make the best spell casting candidate for Vow of Poverty. Intuitive Strike, the Exalted Multiattack, Celestial Summoning. Plus if you're shifting a lot, your magic items won't be much of a concern. Natural Spell is frikkin great too if you wanna cast toungues (Think Druids get it). Or have an item that gives it to you. For your shape shifting, can't the Shifter PrC stay in the different forms longer than usual? May not have the punch they used to, but still a good choice...
Knucklehead 03-16-04, 01:56 PM	Thanks for the suggestions so far. I have access to all the books listed so I'll poke around a bit. The Lycanthrope concept, though related, is different than what I had in mind. I don't plan to switch back and forth. He will effectively be a wolf in most regards. Ultimately this character will lose his human behavior. He will be an adventurer so there will be some aspects that remain, like communication and spell casting. When he retires (so to speak) he will regress fully into a common, long-lived wolf. I am excited about the Wolf Lord mentioned earlier. I imagine him having a pack of wolves. I can envision him pacing back and forth while a low growl reachs through the woods. All the while the winds begin to stir and dark clouds form overhead. Now that's a druid! Magic Fang, Greater looks to have a decent duration to handle the combat aspect. Are there any other good combat spells to counter the lack of armor and weapons?
Prism 03-16-04, 02:24 PM	Originally posted by Knucklehead Magic Fang, Greater looks to have a decent duration to handle the combat aspect. Are there any other good combat spells to counter the lack of armor and weapons? Wildshape changes your type into animal so you can follow this up with a number of different spells. Natures favour from masters of the wild gives bonus's to attack and damage, Greater magic fang and animal growth are all good buffs. You can keep certain magic items in your new form, but I agree too many looks a bit silly and it doesn't suit your feral character. However consider the wild armour enhancement from the DMG as it isn't visible in animal form but the armour is still effective. Good armour for this is dragonskin or my favourite darkleaf from the Arms and Equipment guide
inci 03-16-04, 03:12 PM	I would not recommend Animal Lord, it is by far inferior* to a Druid who stays in one shape all the time (as noted above, just 'restart' in time / or talk with your DM that you just forgo the needed number of WildShapes/day but stay in animalform all the time) Druid6/NaturesWarrior4/xxx (either more Druid or Warshaper4 if you don't mind losing casterlevels) Druid16/NaturesWarrior4 brings you a BAB of +16/+9/+6/+1 and CL 18 After all this is just the mechanic behind it, your concept can ignore all this and pretend to be an Animal, but you have all those ability's and spells to back you up. Interesting spells are definatly the classic druid spells like GMF, the buffing spells(even if nerved in 3.5) and summoning some fellow animals. check the druid handbook on this board for more ideas. to question 3: get a 'torc of animal speech'(MotW), have a mage cast telepathic bond prior to important situations. Sadly, speak with Animals has target 'Personal'. A permanent Tongues won't help you either since you are just not able to talk in Animal Form (it's not on the Druids list anyway, so you'd have to pay a mage) Just try to talk your DM into allowing you to being able to normally communicate in Wildshaped form (maybe spend a feat on it). You are giving up alot of the Druids possibilitys after all and there are some PrC's that grant an animalshape and allow you to speak normally (e.g. Sentinel of Bharrai from BoED) *exception to this is probably the Legendary Tiger you get from CatLord10 what animal do you prefer atm? Wolf? Bear? Mice?
Prism 03-16-04, 03:53 PM	Originally posted by inci I would not recommend Animal Lord, it is by far inferior* to a Druid Inferior, technically yes (straight druid being one of the strongest classes) but maybe not as much as you think. I am playing an animal lord at the moment and another party member is a straight druid. We are 8th level, we can both wildshape into a brown bear, we both have the same BAB however I am a considerably better melee combatant than he is whereas he is a much better spellcaster and far more flexible with his wildshape. In the end the flexibilty and casting power of the druid will win out however Knucklehead wants to stay as a single type of animal so then really it just boils down to caster versus combatant Animal lord has a nice theme to it and its still a valid class to min/max even if not the best. You get a mixed bag of abilites, some good (+2 inherent bonus to a stat), some average (+4 to a skill check). The animal summoning is in line with a druids summon natures ally (Cat lord gets dire tiger a couple of levels earlier) and the far sense/speach is great for wilderness campaigns when scouting. My current character is druid3/barb2/bearlord3. The main difference between this and the druid is that you can do a lot with those two extra levels to take the focus of the character in a different direction. I am planing to take natures warrior at 10th level mainly for the constrict ability in my case, by other animal lords will get a different usage out of it I'm sure
inci 03-16-04, 05:29 PM	You got a point, i reviewed the class and think it is a valid and good choice for this type of character. I don't like that you need to invest two feats to meet the requirements of Animal Lord without being able to use them properly (since you lack CL's) and another one that only makes sense when taking Wolf, Bear or Bird. You could easily invest those 3 feats into combat-oriented ones when you stick to straight druid. Druid3/Fighter1/Barb1 looks kinda interesting when you go for BearLord and leaves you with rage and a fighter feat.
inci 03-16-04, 05:34 PM	bleh, double post
Prism 03-16-04, 05:57 PM	Originally posted by inci I don't like that you need to invest two feats to meet the requirements of Animal Lord without being able to use them properly (since you lack CL's) and another one that only makes sense when taking Wolf, Bear or Bird. Tell me about it :rolleyes: . We are playing a wilderness campaign with a few animals around but those two feats don't really work out even for a full caster due to the high hit dice of animals. That is certainly a drawback of the PrC. Maybe there will be a proper update in a future book
Knucklehead 03-16-04, 07:14 PM	I agree with the feat prerequisites. They are awefully expensive in my opinion. Although the concept of the PrC would fit this character there are some areas that are not perfect. I'm not trying to min/max, but I can't rationalize Animal Control or Animal Defiance as being worthwhile. Also, I'm not to keen on the ability to switch the party to wolves. I think this character would find that disrespectful to both species. This melds with the principle that this character will not switch back and forth. He feels he was born human until Mother Nature gave him the power to change into his "true form". This statement pushes me towards the Animal Lord since the descriptions intertwine, however I feel the pro's don't outway the con's. I think the Animal Lord is more of a totem spirit not a wolf trapped in a humans body. The first totem power is redundant. If you are a wolf you get scent, right? Why then would the character get Scent? To use in human form I assume, which this character won't be in. While the second totem can be worthwhile, this character is not a bloodhound. I would say the +4 bonus would add to track, and the basic wolf is already a decent (can still be improved) tracker. The third totem I can't argue, it is a good one and I think it is fitting for the wolf. When trying to decide on stats I placed a high precedence for CON. Animal perception and animal farspeech kick@SS. Using a pack mentality this might swing my final vote towards this PrC. I don't have access to CW until our next game since a buddy has the book. I'll have to look at the Nature's Warrior and compare.
Prism 03-16-04, 07:27 PM	Originally posted by Knucklehead IThe first totem power is redundant. If you are a wolf you get scent, right? Why then would the character get Scent? To use in human form I assume, which this character won't be in. You only get bonus feats and extraordinary attacks in wildshape (in 3.5 at least) and therefore no scent. Because of the change in wildshape between 3 and 3.5 this totem actually becomes more important. Normally you would only get the track bonus feat which is a nice way of qualifying for natures warrior, plus the wolf trip ability
Knucklehead 03-16-04, 07:43 PM	By god Prism you are right! Another reason to keep an eye on this PrC. I want scent damn it! What self-respecting wolf doesn't have scent? Can you give me any legal highlights of the Nature's Warrior? No details just concept?
inci 03-17-04, 07:37 AM	Natures Warrior: Full BAB, full wildshape progression, spellcasting progression every even level. A bonus class ability every odd level (things like Fast Healing, DR and various other stuff). I'd say lesser Wildshape from AnimalLord qualifys together with the Track feat. Warshaper: 3/4 BAB, no spellcasting progression, no wildshape progression, giving imunity to crits, improved Stats, more reach, fast healing, etc. Lesser Wildshape qualifys Druid1-6/NW1-2/Druid7-14/NW3-4/Druid15-16 you could take Scent as Feat if you want it Ranger1/Druid1-2/Fighter1-2/WolfLord1-3/NW1/Wolflord4-10/whatever4 Ranger1/Druid1-2/Fighter1-2/WolfLord1-3/WS1-4/WolfLord4-10/whatever1 The Druid still stays the better tracker due to his superior Skillpoints
Knucklehead 03-17-04, 01:19 PM	Thanks for the interest fellas. Once I get my paws on the CW I'll make a final decision. I made two first drafts, one a level 10 druid the other a 5Drd/5AnL. Honestly I liked the straight druid better. Does anyone know if Nature's Warrior has Intimidate as a class skill? How would you maximize a pack of wolves? The character and the companion can share spells. At least the companion will be a reasonable combatant. I was thinking of using Awaken, but the XP cost is too high. How can I get a reasonably good fighting crew that is more than just fodder.