Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 01:39 PM	I have a problem, Animal growth has the tag that says "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack" But, Does wildshape increse size? Or does it CHANGE size? Are there any official rullings about this?
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 02:51 PM	No thoughts?
amalcon 08-05-04, 02:58 PM	This could go either way. I don't think an official rule has been found pointing either way. It's up to your DM. Incidentally, you can still get around this by shaping into something with the same size as you.
Caelic 08-05-04, 03:06 PM	Animal Growth, I'd say, changes size. You're shifting into a normal-sized specimen of whatever animal you choose. Otherwise, you'd get bizarre situations where you could change into a monkey and use Animal Growth, or change into a legendary ape and use Animal Growth...but you couldn't change into a dire ape and use Animal Growth.
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 03:11 PM	Well, In my opinion: "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." Well, first of all Wildshape is clearly not a spell, It is a supernatural ability that "happens to work as a spell". Just that they are too lazy to point out how it works. Now, Animal Growth is a spell that increases size, all spells that do so specifically say so in their description. Wildshape/Polly does not Increase size It CHANGES size. Although a technicallity, I believe that the fact that Wildshape does no reference to "magical effects that increase size do not stack" is a clear reason why it should work. Now, on to the spirit of the rules. If you compare all other casters you will find that they have 2 spells/abilities in common, let me demonstrate: Divine Power - Wildshape - Polymorph Righteous Might - Animal Growth - Tensers/AGrowth With this I presume that Animal growth was intended for use along with Wildshape as Righteous might was designed to be used with Divine power.
Funny Slaughter 08-05-04, 06:22 PM	i would say that they stack as wildshaoe is not a magical effect that increases size. but nontheless: OT here, go to the spells&magic board... gs Funny
freemoody 08-05-04, 07:23 PM	Here's an example of some arguments against this combo. "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." Wild shape is (Su), and as such, a magical effect. Therefore, according to the rules, a Wildshaped druid can only grow further with Animal Growth if he/she Wildshaped into a shape that is smaller than or equal to their original form in size. & A supernatural ability, according to the PHB, pg. 314 is: "A magical power that produces a particular effect..." Now, the spell "Animal Growth" is a spell, therefore a magical effect. Since it states in the spell that "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack," they do not stack, if Wildshape is considered to increase size rather than change size (although I cannot really see the difference...).
Snow Savant 08-05-04, 07:27 PM	Wildshape "changes" or "turns" the druid into an animal of a given size range, of which the size ranges and creature types are enhanced and broadened as the druid levels up or takes the appropriate feats. Since the wildshape mechanics in the PHB are not aware of the druid's primary size, the words used in wildshape do not imply that there is a size increase or decrease mechanic for any given wildshape options available - just a *change* to the druids form and size. The wildshape mechanics were written so that they would apply to a small-sized Halfling Druid or a huge-sized Stone Giant Druid. Had the words "size increase" been include in the wildshape description, they would apply to Animal Growth's restriction clause. On a related note ... you can also wildshape into Advanced versions of creatures as well (using MM creature advancement rules). Which as you know, also changes size of your target wildshape form. And if your DM says you have familiarity with such critters, I would immediately add this option to your wildshaping repertoire. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Previn 08-05-04, 07:33 PM	Wild shaping into a polar bear and then animal growthing has been used to clarify rules questions by the sage. I would take that as a de-facto yes it works.
Rara Avis 08-05-04, 08:33 PM	A little off topic but that is the second time I heard reference to an "Advance version" of an animal. Where can I find this?
Blade2718 08-05-04, 08:41 PM	Advanced anything refers to their HD relative to the norm for a member of that species. You can advance, say a wolf, with animal HD, and it becomes an X HD advanced wolf. I would argue against wildshaping into advanced animals because an advanced animal is not representative of a normal member of its species.
Zeffan the Fighting Man 08-05-04, 09:31 PM	Originally posted by Blade2718 I would argue against wildshaping into advanced animals because an advanced animal is not representative of a normal member of its species. Irrelevant: Here's the quote from the SRD-- Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. The emphasis is mine--you are confusing the summoning spell animal standard for a requirement of the Wildshape ability, Blade. Snow is 100% correct. :smirk: Again! ...As is Funny, ....this is the wrong board to post this question, Druid Roxors! --however, to answer your question (again) Animal growth does work with a druid's ability to Wildshape...a Su ability does not count as a "Magical effect" which is an ambiguous phrase in the spell description, at best... Both Previn (mentioning the errata example) and Funny S. (differentiating between the Su "ability" that changes form and "magical effect" that changes size) are correct. Enjoy your game. :tiphat: Zeffan Gamin' since '78
catharz 08-05-04, 11:39 PM	Originally posted by Zeffan the Fighting Man Irrelevant: Here's the quote from the SRD-- Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. The emphasis is mine--you are confusing the summoning spell animal standard for a requirement of the Wildshape ability, Blade. Snow is 100% correct. :smirk: Again! ... :tiphat: Zeffan Gamin' since '78 Please note my emphasis: As Wildshape does not note that a Druid can take the form of an abnormal creature, they cannot. The familiarity thing is just an added restriction in place for realism.
Caelic 08-06-04, 12:05 AM	Originally posted by catharz Please note my emphasis: As Wildshape does not note that a Druid can take the form of an abnormal creature, they cannot. The familiarity thing is just an added restriction in place for realism. You know, it's the oddest thing--I can't for the life of me recall the "average creature" clause BEING in the new Polymorph text. I recall a reference in Alter Self, but if I recall correctly, that was with regards to the creature's appearance parameters. Am I just misremembering the spell?
Zeffan the Fighting Man 08-06-04, 04:02 PM	Originally posted by catharz Please note my emphasis: As Wildshape does not note that a Druid can take the form of an abnormal creature, they cannot. The familiarity thing is just an added restriction in place for realism. I'll stand by my original answer. Examples in WoTC polymorph and Wildshape and spell example errata demonstrate otherwise--further, your last sentence is ....what? Opinion, not fact, in light of said examples. "...in place for realism..."?!? :smirk: :rofl: I suppose you could have got that during the 3.5 designers meeting I missed... ;) :heehee What a joke! :D D&D mechanics have little to do with "Realism" in the classic sense--it is, after all, a fantasy role playing game. Get REAL, Catharz...even if we we're to accept your statement as "fact"--it doesn't change the underlying premise: Animal growth WORKS for a wildshaped druid. Rock on! Zeff (I said "..get REAL..." Ha ha! :bounce: I slay me... ;) )
Black Sheep 08-06-04, 04:35 PM	Originally posted by Zeffan the Fighting Man --however, to answer your question (again) Animal growth does work with a druid's ability to Wildshape...a Su ability does not count as a "Magical effect" which is an ambiguous phrase in the spell description, at best... From the SRD: Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural Abilities are magical effects. There is no ambiguity here. The only question is wether or not Wildshape and Polymorph are counted as size increases or as changes in size. I tended to think the latter, but maybe the former is right. Would reduce the Druid's and Polymorph's power somewhat, and by all accounts both are very powerful.
Zeffan the Fighting Man 08-06-04, 04:56 PM	Originally posted by Black Sheep There is no ambiguity here. The only question is wether or not Wildshape and Polymorph are counted as size increases or as changes in size. Hence the ambiguity! :D I was also refering to WoTC's nasty practice of not saying what they mean..."magical effects" means many things, such as spell effects or the results of Supernatural abilities...as you have pointed out, Black Sheep. However the spell (SRD) says no stacking animal growth with magical effects that increase size...then they post examples where a medium druid, wildshaped into a large animal (using a "magical effect" to "grow" as you've pointed out...) then uses the spell to increase their size and power. Earlier WoTC posted on this forum asking for applications for a new product editor--well, they need more than one.... and they need them very badly... :mad: Nit picky items will always exist in such a comples game system...no use inviting further problems by hinging all shape changing to the very mechanically broken alterself and polymorph spells just to save a little ink is STOOPID! :nonono: Read Skip's article "clarifying" polymorph and you'll have to admit that it causes nearly as many problems as it solves... Best solution: Wild Shape should have NOTHING to do with the spell--its a class ability while the spell is a spell...seperate the mechanic entirely--but hey, WoTC didn't ask me and I did NOT apply for the editing job, so they're on their own... :rolleyes: Fact remains: Spell works on Wildshaped Druids 'cause WoTC SAID it did...all the awful semantics and CO'ers "dancing on the head of a pin" not withstanding... Zeff
freemoody 08-06-04, 09:22 PM	Originally posted by Zeffan the Fighting Man Fact remains: Spell works on Wildshaped Druids 'cause WoTC SAID it did...all the awful semantics and CO'ers "dancing on the head of a pin" not withstanding... Zeff I just wish I could find some place where WoTC actually said such things to persuade those few crazy Anti-Druid COCO ers. If anyone has any links of Chats, Logs, Blogs, Eratta, or anything please post it here.