Animate a Red Dragon Skeleton at Level 4 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animate a Red Dragon Skeleton at Level 4 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arismir
08-15-05, 11:55 PM Mainly, I just want to make sure everything checks out and spread the word if it does.

Cleric 4 [Death, Evil]

Cast Animate Dead (cl5) from a scroll with the suitable cost for 19 HD in a zone of desecration (w/ altar).
That comes out to 875 gp.

This allows you to animate 20 HD worth (cl5x2hdx2 for desecration). You only need 19 for the Skeleton Red Dragon on page 227 of the MM.

Animate Dead is an evil spell thus you'd have a CL of 5 and be able to maintain 20 HD of Skeletons.

So you'd be able to have the chance to ride on a Big Skeletal Dragon under your control at Level 4 for only 875 gp.

I'd reccomend spending the rest of your gold on Armor for it.

Also, your cleric build can still be pretty solid. The Necromancy [Evil] spells are some of the more fun ones that a cleric gets, and you can min/max those to you heart's content.

note- I originally came up with this character idea for a core-only level 4 dueling arena. I know that with Libris Mortis and utilizing Corpsecrafter and etc. makes this build a lot better for the Dragon's.

So, check my work. Have fun. And if you guy's want, post the most optimized Clerc 4 Skeletal Dragon Rider you can imagine.

note- I know you need a Dragon Skeleton to do this.
Bonzai
08-16-05, 11:34 AM Something I am fuzzy on is wether zombies retain their natural flight. Dracominicon said skeletons don't, but didn't say if zombies did. If they do keep it, then a Zombie would be better. I would then get it awakened. If there was a decent way to enhance it's wisdom back to it's natural lvl, I'd spell stich it as well. Then you really have a nice mount!
Fwib
08-16-05, 12:35 PM Something I am fuzzy on is wether zombies retain their natural flight. Dracominicon said skeletons don't, but didn't say if zombies did. If they do keep it, then a Zombie would be better. I would then get it awakened. If there was a decent way to enhance it's wisdom back to it's natural lvl, I'd spell stich it as well. Then you really have a nice mount!Skeletons can only fly magically (no skin/feathers/etc on the wings). No zombies of things with more than 10HD with animate dead. (source SRD)
ancalimohtar
08-16-05, 02:15 PM Something I am fuzzy on is wether zombies retain their natural flight. Dracominicon said skeletons don't, but didn't say if zombies did. If they do keep it, then a Zombie would be better. I would then get it awakened.Zombies retain all modes of movement, except their flight manuverability is reduced by one category. Awaken Undead was reprinted in LM, and gives nothing of value to undead dragons. Basically, the benefit comes in the form of weapon proficiencies and a few other little things. (Awakened undead no longer regain skillpoints or feats.) Obviously dragons have no need.

Skeletons can only fly magically (no skin/feathers/etc on the wings). No zombies of things with more than 10HD with animate dead. (source SRD)Skeletal dragons cannot fly, and lose all modes of movement except land, burrow, and climb. Zombie dragons animated through animate dead are different from other zombies made with the spell; regular zombies must have 10 or fewer HD, and upon animation, double their HD, while dragon zombies have no HD limit and do not double HD upon animation.

I just animated a 7HD black dragon and his 19HD mother two sessions ago in my current game.
Fwib
08-16-05, 02:28 PM ...dragon zombies have no HD limit and do not double HD upon animation.Source for that?ahha.. Draconomicon p197 - seems a little overpowered...
ancalimohtar
08-16-05, 02:35 PM It's not overpowered because it assumes the DM is not an idiot. You want to animate a 28HD dragon? You're going to have to fight it first. And it's not like you can just summon a Colossal dragon anytime you want.
Fwib
08-16-05, 04:11 PM It's not overpowered because it assumes the DM is not an idiot. You want to animate a 28HD dragon? You're going to have to fight it first. And it's not like you can just summon a Colossal dragon anytime you want.That sounds suspiciously like the Oberoni Fallacy.
Apart from the fact that the GM does have to supply a dead dragon, as mentioned below. By the time you can kill your own dragon a more powerful zombie probably isn't unbalancing.
I guess I was just too eager to use the phrase 'Oberoni Fallacy' :(
ninja1
08-16-05, 04:23 PM Arismir, yes this works out quite well.

(Awakened undead no longer regain skillpoints or feats.) The mention of skill points and feats was redundant in the Savage Species version of Awaken Undead.

Skillpoints and Feats for intelligent undead are covered by the Undead creature type.
ancalimohtar
08-16-05, 07:33 PM The mention of skill points and feats was redundant in the Savage Species version of Awaken Undead.

Skillpoints and Feats for intelligent undead are covered by the Undead creature type.How was it redundant? It specifically says the creatures do not regain the old skillpoints and feats, but gains new ones (telling you the number of SP and feats in parentheses just so you don't have to look up the undead type).

The LM version of awaken undead simply leaves out the gaining new SP and feats line. If you think the SS version's clause was redundant, then you must believe the LM version still grants new SP and feats.
Caelic
08-16-05, 08:40 PM Actually, I wouldn't say it's close to the Oberoni Fallacy at all. If the plan requires an item the character has no way of acquiring for himself, then that's a pretty significant flaw. The only way this plan is going to work is if the DM goes out of his way to MAKE it work, by having a dragon corpse conveniently available.
ninjarabbit
08-16-05, 09:59 PM All he has to do is follow an adventuring party as they slay a dragon
ancalimohtar
08-16-05, 10:22 PM All he has to do is follow an adventuring party as they slay a dragonYou mean, all he has to do is convince his DM to go out of his way to introduce a dragon slain by an adventuring party that doesn't happen to have a mage or a cleric who wants to cast animate dead.
Caelic
08-16-05, 10:46 PM ...a party that doesn't have a mage or cleric who wants to cast Animate Dead, AND who are completely ignorant of the value of dragon parts, and thus uninterested in the corpse themselves, AND are too lazy to dispose of it.
ancalimohtar
08-16-05, 11:01 PM I actually wrote out an entire paragraph's worth of a run-on sentence that included your observations, among others, but decided to be nice to the dude and just end it quick.

Great minds...
ninja1
08-16-05, 11:48 PM Hi ancalimohtar,

How was it redundant? It specifically says the creatures do not regain the old skillpoints and feats, but gains new ones (telling you the number of SP and feats in parentheses just so you don't have to look up the undead type). I think you kinda answered the question for me as you typed out what you were thinking. :)

It clarified that the skills and feats were granted via the spell and not an act of the creature regaining skills and feats that the host body once possessed when it was alive.

As you point out, the skills and feats granted are a product of the Undead creature type.

The undead became intelligent and -viola- it now qualifies as intelligent undead; enjoying all the benefits of the (now-intelligent) Undead creature type.

The redundancy I observed was the spell description "telling us the number of SP and feats in parentheses just so we didn't have to look up the undead type" which is what I would do since they became intelligent undead. The skills and feats appeared in both the spell description and the MM.

The LM version of awaken undead simply leaves out the gaining new SP and feats line. If you think the SS version's clause was redundant, then you must believe the LM version still grants new SP and feats. Yup, i do.... in a round about way :)

I believe the LM version makes the undead into Intelligent Undead.

I believe the Undead creature type grants SP and feats to Intelligent Undead.

Does any of this sway your opinion?
ancalimohtar
08-17-05, 12:05 AM I believe the LM version makes the undead into Intelligent Undead.

I believe the Undead creature type grants SP and feats to Intelligent Undead.

Does any of this sway your opinion?Not really. If you believe that awakening an undead creature all of a sudden changes it categorically and indistinguishably into what we know of as "intelligent undead," then sure. But I feel--and this is the DM in my talking--that feats and skillpoints are not inherently a product of possessing HD as the rules suggest, but more a product of having gained HD. You gain a feat after gaining every third HD, and since the undead dragon already has 19 HD after being awakened, it doesn't gain feats.

The basis of this reasoning, of course, is that skillpoints and feats are supposed to mimic having learned or acquired certain abilities by the process of growing in power. If you learned a bunch of crap while growing as a dragon, then got your ass handed to you by some adventurers who subsequently animated you, you lost all those memories and abilities. Awakening you does not restore memory, and so does not restore feats and skillpoints.
ronyon
08-17-05, 09:32 AM So the real question is "what is the cheapest way to get a decent corpse?"
I know of a few short cuts:
-Stone to flesh: This spell applied to a statue of a creature , produces a corpse. It does NOT say that the corpse is that of the creature sculpted. File this under DM fiate
-Calling spells: Call it, Kill it, Animate it, Rule it. This works best with the Fell Animate metamagic feat,as there is no cost in Onyx, and no upper Hd limit( I think).
Lower their Hit points by Calling them into a container filled with fine dust-it uses the drowning rules, but doesnt waterlog your new corpse, and almost nothing can breath dust.
Now, I'm kinda short on Monster books, so do any of you know of any Outsider/Elemental dragons?
I know that most dragons are associated with an element, but I dont think tht makes them Elementals.
A good dragon subsitute would be a winged demon/devil of some sort.
The humenoid shape and hands would come in uh,handy, and an appropriatly sized tower sheild might be cheaper than even leather armor of the same size, plus ,with the full cover option, it will certianly offer better protection.
If you arent that picky about appearances, Mud Armor(AC1) requires only time.
-Clone: this is a high level spell, and you might just want to use a Simlacrum or Ice Assasin instead, though a Zombi Clone of a Red Dragon would cost less XP.
- This reminds me of something else, many of the methods that produce Whights and Ghouls dont specify a huminoid target., so either that dragon you Ghoul Gauntleted gets the Ghoul templat added on, or any handfull of mice can be come regular untemplated ghouls. Either ruling could benifit you.

-The last option I know of is the PaO trick. Simply put, any corpse is very simular to any other corpse, and if there is an argument about permanacy, start with a smallish Dragon corpse, or an appropriatly Sized Whale corpse.
runestar
08-17-05, 09:51 AM The wotc monster mayhem page has rules for creating alternate skeletons up to 20HD. Of course, the problem of procuring the corpse still stands. How often are you going to find a dead dragon corpse lying around?
Bonzai
08-17-05, 10:47 AM The reason why I would still awaken it would be to give it intelligence. A minion that can think is far more valuable than a mindless zombie. Awakening also gives them back their skills and feats, as well as any extrordinary abilities they had. This may not be a huge change for a dragon zombie, but take a rust monster for example. Once awakened it regains it's rust attack.

Wanna make warriors cry, and be feared across the land? Animate and awaken a small herd of rust monsters.
ancalimohtar
08-17-05, 10:53 AM Actually, I'm fairly certain the designers of LM intended for awakened skeletons and zombies not to gain feats and skillpoints. Whether you ignore that or not is up to you.

Re: regaining (Ex) abilities, your reply was toward the OP, which was focused on the 19HD dragon, not a rust monster or anything else with good (Ex) abilities. There is no point in awakening a dragon zombie/skeleton.
ninja1
08-17-05, 03:02 PM Hi all,

I'd like to appologize if I'm about to sound arrogant and mean. (I hate that!) :)

I would like to remind all that this is the Character Optomization boards. Here terms like RAW (rules as written), Core, and Errata rule the day.

Anything else, such as house rules, is more than welcome in forums like Character Development or What's a player/DM to do.

If the intent of the designers is contrary to the RAW, then they can easily flesh that out in Errata.

While it is the responsibility of every DM to make judgement calls and establish House Rules, these clarifications for individual games do not apply to this forum.

[/end rant]

Again, I appologize if any of that is offensive. I much prefer friendly chatter to flamming.

Before anyone considers what I posted earlier for judgement calls in their own games, let me warn everyone in advance, I am very biased in favor of Necromancers.

I love's me some undead :schemes:

ronyon, are you suggesting using a Simulacrum as a Simulacrum and not as undead material? I ask because your topic is aquiring a decent corpse. A dead Simulacrum would just be a pile of icy slush.

runestar, I checked out that monster mayhem article... It was updating the 3.0 to the current templated version in 3.5!!! cool :)

Bonzai, awakening does not "give them back their skills and feats". They do not regain the skills and feats they enjoyed in life (except weapon proficiencies... go figure).

However, much like the magic in Animate Dead qualifying them for the BAB and Saves as per the Undead Creature type, the magic in Awaken Undead qualifies them for skill points and feats as per the Undead Creature type.

Now if you were to assign them skills and feats they happened to use when alive, more power to you (myself, I prefer lots of Improved Toughness)
:D
ronyon
08-17-05, 03:28 PM Yeah, Simulacrum is a subsitute for the Zombi Dragon, not source matirial.
I would love a Necromancy(creation) spell that did preatty much the same thing-Enslaved Clone or sumthin'.
ninja1
08-17-05, 03:54 PM Ah, that makes sense. I have a BBEG in my campaign that is a Cleric to Nerul and a Lich. He enjoys having several Simulacrums of himself around :D
Glimm
08-17-05, 07:08 PM I'd just like to emphasize that this was for a level four optimization dueling arena. Backstories were not an issue. The DM did not decide if we found a Dragon or not. If we wanted a Dragon, we said that it happened in our backstory.

Also, I could be wrong, but I believe that Animate Dead animates skeletons under your control. They obey your commands or something of the sort. Thus, you wouldn't have to fight it and you woudn't have to worry about it being intelligent as you can already tell it what to do.

Nonetheless, an Intelligent mount has its benefits.

I understand that this idea is completely illogical in a real campaign with a real DM.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arismir 08-15-05, 11:55 PM	Mainly, I just want to make sure everything checks out and spread the word if it does. Cleric 4 [Death, Evil] Cast Animate Dead (cl5) from a scroll with the suitable cost for 19 HD in a zone of desecration (w/ altar). That comes out to 875 gp. This allows you to animate 20 HD worth (cl5x2hdx2 for desecration). You only need 19 for the Skeleton Red Dragon on page 227 of the MM. Animate Dead is an evil spell thus you'd have a CL of 5 and be able to maintain 20 HD of Skeletons. So you'd be able to have the chance to ride on a Big Skeletal Dragon under your control at Level 4 for only 875 gp. I'd reccomend spending the rest of your gold on Armor for it. Also, your cleric build can still be pretty solid. The Necromancy [Evil] spells are some of the more fun ones that a cleric gets, and you can min/max those to you heart's content. note- I originally came up with this character idea for a core-only level 4 dueling arena. I know that with Libris Mortis and utilizing Corpsecrafter and etc. makes this build a lot better for the Dragon's. So, check my work. Have fun. And if you guy's want, post the most optimized Clerc 4 Skeletal Dragon Rider you can imagine. note- I know you need a Dragon Skeleton to do this.
Bonzai 08-16-05, 11:34 AM	Something I am fuzzy on is wether zombies retain their natural flight. Dracominicon said skeletons don't, but didn't say if zombies did. If they do keep it, then a Zombie would be better. I would then get it awakened. If there was a decent way to enhance it's wisdom back to it's natural lvl, I'd spell stich it as well. Then you really have a nice mount!
Fwib 08-16-05, 12:35 PM	Something I am fuzzy on is wether zombies retain their natural flight. Dracominicon said skeletons don't, but didn't say if zombies did. If they do keep it, then a Zombie would be better. I would then get it awakened. If there was a decent way to enhance it's wisdom back to it's natural lvl, I'd spell stich it as well. Then you really have a nice mount!Skeletons can only fly magically (no skin/feathers/etc on the wings). No zombies of things with more than 10HD with animate dead. (source SRD)
ancalimohtar 08-16-05, 02:15 PM	Something I am fuzzy on is wether zombies retain their natural flight. Dracominicon said skeletons don't, but didn't say if zombies did. If they do keep it, then a Zombie would be better. I would then get it awakened.Zombies retain all modes of movement, except their flight manuverability is reduced by one category. Awaken Undead was reprinted in LM, and gives nothing of value to undead dragons. Basically, the benefit comes in the form of weapon proficiencies and a few other little things. (Awakened undead no longer regain skillpoints or feats.) Obviously dragons have no need. Skeletons can only fly magically (no skin/feathers/etc on the wings). No zombies of things with more than 10HD with animate dead. (source SRD)Skeletal dragons cannot fly, and lose all modes of movement except land, burrow, and climb. Zombie dragons animated through animate dead are different from other zombies made with the spell; regular zombies must have 10 or fewer HD, and upon animation, double their HD, while dragon zombies have no HD limit and do not double HD upon animation. I just animated a 7HD black dragon and his 19HD mother two sessions ago in my current game.
Fwib 08-16-05, 02:28 PM	...dragon zombies have no HD limit and do not double HD upon animation.Source for that?ahha.. Draconomicon p197 - seems a little overpowered...
ancalimohtar 08-16-05, 02:35 PM	It's not overpowered because it assumes the DM is not an idiot. You want to animate a 28HD dragon? You're going to have to fight it first. And it's not like you can just summon a Colossal dragon anytime you want.
Fwib 08-16-05, 04:11 PM	It's not overpowered because it assumes the DM is not an idiot. You want to animate a 28HD dragon? You're going to have to fight it first. And it's not like you can just summon a Colossal dragon anytime you want.That sounds suspiciously like the Oberoni Fallacy. Apart from the fact that the GM does have to supply a dead dragon, as mentioned below. By the time you can kill your own dragon a more powerful zombie probably isn't unbalancing. I guess I was just too eager to use the phrase 'Oberoni Fallacy' :(
ninja1 08-16-05, 04:23 PM	Arismir, yes this works out quite well. (Awakened undead no longer regain skillpoints or feats.) The mention of skill points and feats was redundant in the Savage Species version of Awaken Undead. Skillpoints and Feats for intelligent undead are covered by the Undead creature type.
ancalimohtar 08-16-05, 07:33 PM	The mention of skill points and feats was redundant in the Savage Species version of Awaken Undead. Skillpoints and Feats for intelligent undead are covered by the Undead creature type.How was it redundant? It specifically says the creatures do not regain the old skillpoints and feats, but gains new ones (telling you the number of SP and feats in parentheses just so you don't have to look up the undead type). The LM version of awaken undead simply leaves out the gaining new SP and feats line. If you think the SS version's clause was redundant, then you must believe the LM version still grants new SP and feats.
Caelic 08-16-05, 08:40 PM	Actually, I wouldn't say it's close to the Oberoni Fallacy at all. If the plan requires an item the character has no way of acquiring for himself, then that's a pretty significant flaw. The only way this plan is going to work is if the DM goes out of his way to MAKE it work, by having a dragon corpse conveniently available.
ninjarabbit 08-16-05, 09:59 PM	All he has to do is follow an adventuring party as they slay a dragon
ancalimohtar 08-16-05, 10:22 PM	All he has to do is follow an adventuring party as they slay a dragonYou mean, all he has to do is convince his DM to go out of his way to introduce a dragon slain by an adventuring party that doesn't happen to have a mage or a cleric who wants to cast animate dead.
Caelic 08-16-05, 10:46 PM	...a party that doesn't have a mage or cleric who wants to cast Animate Dead, AND who are completely ignorant of the value of dragon parts, and thus uninterested in the corpse themselves, AND are too lazy to dispose of it.
ancalimohtar 08-16-05, 11:01 PM	I actually wrote out an entire paragraph's worth of a run-on sentence that included your observations, among others, but decided to be nice to the dude and just end it quick. Great minds...
ninja1 08-16-05, 11:48 PM	Hi ancalimohtar, How was it redundant? It specifically says the creatures do not regain the old skillpoints and feats, but gains new ones (telling you the number of SP and feats in parentheses just so you don't have to look up the undead type). I think you kinda answered the question for me as you typed out what you were thinking. :) It clarified that the skills and feats were granted via the spell and not an act of the creature regaining skills and feats that the host body once possessed when it was alive. As you point out, the skills and feats granted are a product of the Undead creature type. The undead became intelligent and -viola- it now qualifies as intelligent undead; enjoying all the benefits of the (now-intelligent) Undead creature type. The redundancy I observed was the spell description "telling us the number of SP and feats in parentheses just so we didn't have to look up the undead type" which is what I would do since they became intelligent undead. The skills and feats appeared in both the spell description and the MM. The LM version of awaken undead simply leaves out the gaining new SP and feats line. If you think the SS version's clause was redundant, then you must believe the LM version still grants new SP and feats. Yup, i do.... in a round about way :) I believe the LM version makes the undead into Intelligent Undead. I believe the Undead creature type grants SP and feats to Intelligent Undead. Does any of this sway your opinion?
ancalimohtar 08-17-05, 12:05 AM	I believe the LM version makes the undead into Intelligent Undead. I believe the Undead creature type grants SP and feats to Intelligent Undead. Does any of this sway your opinion?Not really. If you believe that awakening an undead creature all of a sudden changes it categorically and indistinguishably into what we know of as "intelligent undead," then sure. But I feel--and this is the DM in my talking--that feats and skillpoints are not inherently a product of possessing HD as the rules suggest, but more a product of having gained HD. You gain a feat after gaining every third HD, and since the undead dragon already has 19 HD after being awakened, it doesn't gain feats. The basis of this reasoning, of course, is that skillpoints and feats are supposed to mimic having learned or acquired certain abilities by the process of growing in power. If you learned a bunch of crap while growing as a dragon, then got your ass handed to you by some adventurers who subsequently animated you, you lost all those memories and abilities. Awakening you does not restore memory, and so does not restore feats and skillpoints.
ronyon 08-17-05, 09:32 AM	So the real question is "what is the cheapest way to get a decent corpse?" I know of a few short cuts: -Stone to flesh: This spell applied to a statue of a creature , produces a corpse. It does NOT say that the corpse is that of the creature sculpted. File this under DM fiate -Calling spells: Call it, Kill it, Animate it, Rule it. This works best with the Fell Animate metamagic feat,as there is no cost in Onyx, and no upper Hd limit( I think). Lower their Hit points by Calling them into a container filled with fine dust-it uses the drowning rules, but doesnt waterlog your new corpse, and almost nothing can breath dust. Now, I'm kinda short on Monster books, so do any of you know of any Outsider/Elemental dragons? I know that most dragons are associated with an element, but I dont think tht makes them Elementals. A good dragon subsitute would be a winged demon/devil of some sort. The humenoid shape and hands would come in uh,handy, and an appropriatly sized tower sheild might be cheaper than even leather armor of the same size, plus ,with the full cover option, it will certianly offer better protection. If you arent that picky about appearances, Mud Armor(AC1) requires only time. -Clone: this is a high level spell, and you might just want to use a Simlacrum or Ice Assasin instead, though a Zombi Clone of a Red Dragon would cost less XP. - This reminds me of something else, many of the methods that produce Whights and Ghouls dont specify a huminoid target., so either that dragon you Ghoul Gauntleted gets the Ghoul templat added on, or any handfull of mice can be come regular untemplated ghouls. Either ruling could benifit you. -The last option I know of is the PaO trick. Simply put, any corpse is very simular to any other corpse, and if there is an argument about permanacy, start with a smallish Dragon corpse, or an appropriatly Sized Whale corpse.
runestar 08-17-05, 09:51 AM	The wotc monster mayhem page has rules for creating alternate skeletons up to 20HD. Of course, the problem of procuring the corpse still stands. How often are you going to find a dead dragon corpse lying around?
Bonzai 08-17-05, 10:47 AM	The reason why I would still awaken it would be to give it intelligence. A minion that can think is far more valuable than a mindless zombie. Awakening also gives them back their skills and feats, as well as any extrordinary abilities they had. This may not be a huge change for a dragon zombie, but take a rust monster for example. Once awakened it regains it's rust attack. Wanna make warriors cry, and be feared across the land? Animate and awaken a small herd of rust monsters.
ancalimohtar 08-17-05, 10:53 AM	Actually, I'm fairly certain the designers of LM intended for awakened skeletons and zombies not to gain feats and skillpoints. Whether you ignore that or not is up to you. Re: regaining (Ex) abilities, your reply was toward the OP, which was focused on the 19HD dragon, not a rust monster or anything else with good (Ex) abilities. There is no point in awakening a dragon zombie/skeleton.
ninja1 08-17-05, 03:02 PM	Hi all, I'd like to appologize if I'm about to sound arrogant and mean. (I hate that!) :) I would like to remind all that this is the Character Optomization boards. Here terms like RAW (rules as written), Core, and Errata rule the day. Anything else, such as house rules, is more than welcome in forums like Character Development or What's a player/DM to do. If the intent of the designers is contrary to the RAW, then they can easily flesh that out in Errata. While it is the responsibility of every DM to make judgement calls and establish House Rules, these clarifications for individual games do not apply to this forum. [/end rant] Again, I appologize if any of that is offensive. I much prefer friendly chatter to flamming. Before anyone considers what I posted earlier for judgement calls in their own games, let me warn everyone in advance, I am very biased in favor of Necromancers. I love's me some undead :schemes: ronyon, are you suggesting using a Simulacrum as a Simulacrum and not as undead material? I ask because your topic is aquiring a decent corpse. A dead Simulacrum would just be a pile of icy slush. runestar, I checked out that monster mayhem article... It was updating the 3.0 to the current templated version in 3.5!!! cool :) Bonzai, awakening does not "give them back their skills and feats". They do not regain the skills and feats they enjoyed in life (except weapon proficiencies... go figure). However, much like the magic in Animate Dead qualifying them for the BAB and Saves as per the Undead Creature type, the magic in Awaken Undead qualifies them for skill points and feats as per the Undead Creature type. Now if you were to assign them skills and feats they happened to use when alive, more power to you (myself, I prefer lots of Improved Toughness) :D
ronyon 08-17-05, 03:28 PM	Yeah, Simulacrum is a subsitute for the Zombi Dragon, not source matirial. I would love a Necromancy(creation) spell that did preatty much the same thing-Enslaved Clone or sumthin'.
ninja1 08-17-05, 03:54 PM	Ah, that makes sense. I have a BBEG in my campaign that is a Cleric to Nerul and a Lich. He enjoys having several Simulacrums of himself around :D
Glimm 08-17-05, 07:08 PM	I'd just like to emphasize that this was for a level four optimization dueling arena. Backstories were not an issue. The DM did not decide if we found a Dragon or not. If we wanted a Dragon, we said that it happened in our backstory. Also, I could be wrong, but I believe that Animate Dead animates skeletons under your control. They obey your commands or something of the sort. Thus, you wouldn't have to fight it and you woudn't have to worry about it being intelligent as you can already tell it what to do. Nonetheless, an Intelligent mount has its benefits. I understand that this idea is completely illogical in a real campaign with a real DM.