Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RadicalTaoist 09-16-04, 04:48 PM	I want to make a melee-style character in a different direction. I don't want insane AC, insane damage, the ability to affect loads of creatures at once, or access to other class abilities. 4 attacks and high HP is good. My goal is more along the lines of driving the DM insane. What I want is to make a character who takes ruthless advantage of all sorts of feats to become such an aggravating combatants that all other fighters who know of his reputation will avoid him in combat and just let their caster allies deal with him. Feats you ask? Try: Elusive Target, Karmic Strike, Sidestep, Defensive Throw, Defensive Strike, Improved Trip, Sundering Cleave, Improved Disarm, Clever Wrestling, Spring Attack, and the like. Don't be afraid to go straight fighter for this - perhaps Ftr 18 with the Saint template is what is needed. Duelist, Reaping Mauler, and Exotic Weapon Master seem like a good ideas too. Maybe even a range build. If I can make a character who can survive a barbarian's charge, 2 rangers full attacking in one round, or a grapple attempt from something large and nasty, then this is a success. Suggestions? ;)
catharz 09-16-04, 04:56 PM	You could try playing a Monk/Feat rogue, if you have access to Unearthed arcana. Monk 2 (take Kung fu genius if you like)/Feat rogue 16/Fighter 2, minus whatever template LA you need. That gets a lot of feats, uncanny dodge I & II, evasion, some Rogue specials, and a lot of skill points.
RealMad 09-16-04, 05:39 PM	You could try playing a Monk/Feat rogue, if you have access to Unearthed arcana. Monk 2 (take Kung fu genius if you like)/Feat rogue 16/Fighter 2, minus whatever template LA you need. That gets a lot of feats, uncanny dodge I & II, evasion, some Rogue specials, and a lot of skill points. Wouldn't this give you pretty much the Rogue BAB though? Since feats are the order of the day, I'd take Ftr 10/Blade Bravo 10. Full BAB and there will be enough feats to pick up Karmic Strike, Defensive Throw, even the Spring Attack chain, if that's what you really want. What will give your DM a migraine though is the Lethal Riposte/Karmic Strike combo. You hit back if he hits you and if he misses, you hit back with him Denied DEX to AC. Granted, 2d6 sneak attack isn't that good, but hey, it's irritating. Figure in Mobile Fighting (make sure you sing and make skipping actions as you move your miniature) and Size Advantage buffs to AC along with the inherent AC bonus for gnomes and your DM will just give up trying to hit you (!) ...at which point you use Goad to force him to :D
catharz 09-16-04, 05:54 PM	Wouldn't this give you pretty much the Rogue BAB though? Ya, it would. But it also makes the character useful/annoying ouside of combat. You can Bluff, Hide, Move silently, pickpocket with Sleight of hand (remember Snow's stripper?), Use magical devices (this can annoy both players & the DM, i.e. Why does the rogue get to be better with the Holy avenger then my paladin???). You can also Spot, Sense motive, and Listen to avoid being caught with your pants down. And 3 vs. 4 attacks per round isn't a big deal. Most of your attacks should come from Combat reflexes: Karmic strike, Defensive throw, etc. Now that I think of it, a few levels of Psychic warrior might be in order as well. And if you can make a Psychic feat rogue... well, that would just rock.
RealMad 09-16-04, 06:10 PM	Ya, it would. But it also makes the character useful/annoying ouside of combat. You can Bluff, Hide, Move silently, pickpocket with Sleight of hand (remember Snow's stripper?), Use magical devices (this can annoy both players & the DM, i.e. Why does the rogue get to be better with the Holy avenger then my paladin???). You can also Spot, Sense motive, and Listen to avoid being caught with your pants down. And 3 vs. 4 attacks per round isn't a big deal. Most of your attacks should come from Combat reflexes: Karmic strike, Defensive throw, etc. Now that I think of it, a few levels of Psychic warrior might be in order as well. And if you can make a Psychic feat rogue... well, that would just rock. Ah, gotcha. I thought from the description though that he just wanted a melee build for combat. If all situations are included, then of course, the Rogue is tops in combat/non-combat DM infuriation. Still though, if you find yourself needing/wanting more feats, you can get some good class skills plus more feats than straight Rogue by using the UA Fighter variant:Thug. I don't use psionics so can't help there.
olothfaern 09-16-04, 06:45 PM	...want a level or two of Cleric for the travel and luck domain powers...
DarkUnity 09-16-04, 07:09 PM	Recent encounter for my 7th level players: 8th level Elf PsiWar with powers of Expansion and Empathic Transfer, Hostile, with feats Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Karmic Strike, etc wielding a halberd (reach of 10' with Expansion), basically dishing out the damage through AoOs and healing himself on his round (when necessary). ETH hurts, a lot. Almost TPK, almost.
Norad 09-16-04, 10:16 PM	Ranger 2/Swashbuckler 3/Monk(UA) 2/Dervish 7/Duelist 7 Feats: RNG1: Track, Combat Expertise RNG2: Two Weapon Fighting SWB1: Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise SWB2: SWB3: Insightful Strike MNK1: Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, Weapon Focus: Scimitar MNK2: Mobility From here it's just Dervish and Duelist, feats you will probably want are Elusive Target, Two Weapon Defense(Imp+Greater). Between Canny Defense from Duelist, Dervish AC bonus, and Canny Defense from both classes, not to mention Tumble, AC should be good. In other words, season to taste and enjoy. Built correctly (with some decent stats) this should have very good AC and can actually deal some decent damage if you decide that annoying your enemies is boring. As far as race, I would probably go for Whisper Gnome or possibly Stoutheart Halfling to get the extra feat at 1st level.
RadicalTaoist 09-16-04, 10:18 PM	I forgot Stand Still and Cloak Dance from the XPH. Give yourself full cover during you turn as a full round action. Get a spiked chain. Learn how to stun with it through EWM. Do all attacks with attacks of opportunity. Stand Still allows you to make sure they can't go where you don't want them too. Maybe FighterX/RogueX/ReapingMauler2(for Improved Grapple and Mobility feats)/EWM2/Duelist (@least 7) Human. Or, if you want an easy armor bonus without losing Duelist class features, Warforged (you can become immune to crit hits too!). Hell, throw Saint Template on that. Deadly Riposte seems deadliest with assassin death attack or crippling strike. What do you guys think? Any other suggestions?
RadicalTaoist 09-17-04, 03:24 AM	Here is my first build. It's demanding on skills, and it was hard to get all the feats I wanted in (couldn't get EWM or the lovely Prone Attack) but I like it. It will drive barbs, rogues, and tarrasques alike up the wall. Take one level of Reaping Mauler (RpM) after BAB +5 for Improved Grapple and Mobility feats. Take one level of Horizon Walker (HrW) after Endurance for Hide and Move Silently skills Take two levels of Barbarian (Brb) for Uncanny Dodge Take two levels of Shadowdancer (SwD) for (Improved) Uncanny Dodge Build Human 1Ftr1 Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Clever Wrestling* 2Ftr2 Spiked Chain 3Ftr3 Stand Still+ 4Ftr4 Combat Expertise 5Ftr5 6Ftr6 Sidestep Charge+, Improved Trip 7Ftr7 8RpM1 (Mobility, Improved Grapple) 9Ftr8 Endurance, Combat Reflexes 10Brb1 11Brb2 12Ftr9 Elusive Target* 13Ftr10 Close Quarters Fighting* 14HrW1 15SwD1 Karmic Strike* 16SwD2 17Ftr11 18Ftr12 Defensive Strike*, Defensive Throw* 19Ftr13 20Ftr14 Giantbane* Who likes? Who thinks they have a better feat progression? *from Complete Warrior, + from Expanded Psionics Handbook (neither are psionic feats, or have anything to do with psionics really...)
DBoot 09-17-04, 06:31 AM	A little vauge but play fighter long enough to get 'Grappling Block', and see if your DM will allow the Exotic Weapon Master from Masters of the Wild. If so, Barb 1/EWM 3 will effectively allow you to use any weapon in existance (short of restrictions). To cover that, consider getting one of the Skill based feats at level 1 to grab UMD. Carry around a golf bag. The idea is to just take everyone's weapon. I mean everyones. Given that you will have proficiency with any conceavable weapon made for your size (and some not, with Monkey Grip and in Epic, wield oversized weapon) Your character will get quite a reputation. You might still get challenged for your hordes of weapons. I can't think off the top of my head of any classes that increase disarm checks, but Shiba Protector may be worth a look. At level 1, it grants Wisdom to Hit and Damage. Taken with a feat from BOED, you can get double Wisdom to hit with any simple weapon (including your fists), I'd imagine that'd help out in making the special disarm attempt made by Grappling Block.
RadicalTaoist 09-17-04, 12:29 PM	Unfortunately the 3.5 EWM replacement in Complete Warrior is stingier with the proficiencies; like, it gives you none. Should look at grappling block tho. Argh, another feat!
RadicalTaoist 09-17-04, 09:35 PM	*SMACKS HIMSELF* 2 levels of monk can get me Stunning Fist and Combat Reflexes as bonus feats, Hide and Move Silently as class skills, and evasion. Horizon Walker (and Endurance feat) is now unnecessary, and I get Shadow dancer that much earlier. Exchange 1 level of HW and 2 of fighter for 2 of monk and we still have a free level to burn. Maybe take out the two levels of barb and up shadow dancer to lvl 5? That'll give me imp. uncanny dodge and defensive roll (another irritant). In addition, summon shadow and 20 ft. of shadow jump. Like it. EDIT: OK, I'm a fool. 2 less levels of fighter = -1 feat. Combat Reflexes from Monk = + 1 feat. No longer needing Endurance = +1 feat. Net gain = +1 feat. So I have a feat to spare.
sparkster4242 09-18-04, 05:25 AM	be careful about throwing out barbarian - Barb2/Shadow Dancer2 is getting you Imp. Uncanny Dodge in only 4 levels. dont get so tied up in feat selection that you forget to plan out your gear - by 20th level, you can have more immunities than you do class levels. most especially for an annoying melee build, check out Retributive Amulet and Starmantle Cloak from BoED - a saving throw for half vs. weapon-damage is all kinds of cheesey goodness ... even if you _cant_ convince your DM that (Improved) Evasion would also apply. 8D heck, even if you're stunned, you can still dish out some serious damage with that amulet - it even cuts the damage you take in half. again. the Starmantle cloak synergizes really well with Negating Armor - its a +5 ability from the ELH which casts Greater Dispelling on any weapon which strikes you (even ranged weapons!) - rendering it non-magical for a short time - and on the next hit, your opponent's non-magical weapon hits your cloak and goes *poof* im not sure if mettle is something you need to worry about getting - a Mind Blank helm will basically negate the need for will saves, and there arent _that_ many fort (partial) effects out there. steadfast boots from AEG - flat-out immunity to being tripped/bullrushed. Gemstone of Heavy Fortification from Draconomicon - a slotless item which frees up some precious plusses in your armor. i wont spoil all the fun, but these little tidbits ought to spark some ideas :p
handforged 09-18-04, 09:54 AM	Monk 2 is actually more beneficial than you said. You get Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, and Combat Reflexes, as well as +3 to all saves, and evasion. Drop Reaping Mauler and Horizon Walker. Monk 2/Bbn 2/Fighter 14/Shadowdancer 2 or better yet: Monk 1/UA Feat Rogue 13/Shadowdancer 6 Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, 8 regular feats, 7 fighter bonus feats, 2 rogue special abilities, Shadow Jump 40ft, Summon Shadow, defensive roll, IUD, rogue skills, evasion(possibly improved with special ability). It does sacrifice some hit points, but is plenty strong in combat to minimize damage. I would suggest Improved Evasion and Slippery Mind as the rogue special abilities. ~hf
RadicalTaoist 09-18-04, 10:46 AM	Heh, I like defensive roll too much now. Monk2/Ftr12/Shadowdancer 6 will give me all the feats and class features I wanted and two more. Hell, I can drop fighter to 8 and raise monk to 6 - but that nets me improved trip without need for combat expertise, which gives me one more feat, two more feats if I don't take combat expertise. How about Lightning Reflexes and Prone Attack? Or, I can do Ftr6, which will cost me a feat, and take Spiked Chain Weapon Focus and thus qualify for Complete Warrior's Exotic Weapon Master. Stunning Blow seems like a good weapon master trick, what do you guys think? Or....heheheh. Go Ftr 12/Monk 2/Brb 2/ShadowD 2, which is an effective character level of 18, take two exalted feats and get saint template. (You only need two Efeats for saint, right? What does it give you again?)
handforged 09-19-04, 05:35 PM	Mnk 6/Ftr 6/SwD 6 would be pretty cool. Saint or EWM would just add bonus points. 4 bonus feats from Monk, 4 bonus feats from Fighter, 8 feats from human+levels, sounds pretty good to me. 1 Mnk 1: IUS, Improved Grapple, Dodge, EWP: Spiked Chain 2 Mnk 2: Combat Reflexes 3 Mnk 3: Stand Still 4 Mnk 4: 5 Mnk 5: 6 Mnk 6: Improved Trip, Close-quarters fighting 7 Ftr 1: Mobility 8 SwD 1: 9 SwD 2: Elusive Target 10 SwD 3: 11 SwD 4: 12 SwD 5: 13 SwD 6: 14 Ftr 2: Karmic Strike 15 Ftr 3: 16 Ftr 4: Defensive Throw, Sidestep charge 17 Ftr 5: 18 Ftr 6: Clever Wrestling The grappling and AoO feats could be moved around a little bit to please, but otherwise I think that this build would be excellent, although it does have MAD. ~hf
olothfaern 09-19-04, 07:42 PM	...that the whole reason I was looking in the song and silence in the first place was to post to this thread... duh... :confused: anyway, here is what I came up with (with the inspiration of Sisyfos) Insult to injury (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4427369&postcount=3) So I was flipping through song and silence... (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=309644)
Mommy was an Orc 09-20-04, 06:50 PM	He's not really a monk, which I think is something of the flaw of the build - if you went: Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Monk 6 - you could wear any armor you want and do pretty much everything you plan to do. That would cut down on the need for a high wisdom... Mnk 6/Ftr 6/SwD 6 would be pretty cool. The grappling and AoO feats could be moved around a little bit to please, but otherwise I think that this build would be excellent, although it does have MAD. ~hf
handforged 09-20-04, 08:09 PM	But by wearing armor, you lose some other monk abilities that are super nifty. ~hf
RadicalTaoist 09-20-04, 11:17 PM	TY Handforged, but shouldn't the build read: 1 Mnk 1: IUS, Improved Grapple, Dodge, EWP: Spiked Chain 2 Mnk 2: Combat Reflexes 3 Mnk 3: Stand Still 4 Mnk 4: 5 Mnk 5: 6 Mnk 6: Improved Trip, Close-quarters fighting 7 Ftr 1: Mobility 8 SwD 1: 9 SwD 2: Elusive Target 10 SwD 3: 11 SwD 4: 12 SwD 5: ONE FEAT OF YOUR CHOICE! 13 SwD 6: 14 Ftr 2: Karmic Strike 15 Ftr 3: Sidestep charge 16 Ftr 4: Defensive Throw 17 Ftr 5: 18 Ftr 6: Clever Wrestling Weapon Focus and two levels of EWM are an option. Two more levels of fighter and the feats Giantbane (between this and your other grappling feats, you have nothing to fear from large monsters in combat) and Defensive Strike (optimize total defense action) are an option. Or Lightning Reflexes and Prone Attack (torment trip monkeys). We have a skeleton build. Thank you, handforged.
Slithik 09-21-04, 12:05 AM	How about a human Monk6/Fighter6/Shintao Monk6/Shadowdancer2? You end up with: *+15 BAB *2d6 unarmed damage (carry an adamantine kama for constructs) *70 ft. speed *12 stunning attacks per day (if you choose Stunning Fist) *Fists are considered magic weapons *Free Monk feats *8 regular feats *3 Shintao monk feats (including Karmic Strike, Defensive Throw, Defensive Block, and plenty other goodies) *4 Fighter bonus feats *Immunity to diseases *Uncanny Dodge *Improved Evasion (there is a rule that states that anytime you would have two or more Evasion abilities, you have Imp. Evasion) *Hide in Plain Sight (synergy with monk skills) *All the good abilities of a Shintao Monk (includes quite a few immunities, as well as detect evil at will) *Greater Flurry (I know there was some errata or announcement that stated that any PrC that increased a monk's speed and UBAB also counts as levels of monk for flurries) With a speed of 70, you can both Move Silently and Hide in Plain Sight all the time, if you move at 35 ft. Most DM's will crap their pants when a PC is so hard to hit, AND nearly impossible to see and hear. If you are going to pick up the TWF chain, and can afford to wait a while on it, then 6 levels of Ranger over 6 levels of Fighter is amazing, only subtracting one feat and adding all those skill points and favored enemies. Let me know if I missed something :cool:
Mommy was an Orc 09-21-04, 12:25 AM	Flurry of Blows: You're using a spiked chain as your primary weapon. Stunning Fist: You aren't taking it, though it works in armor. So no Wisdom need here. AC: Mithril Light Chain means no real MAD. You'd need an 18 wisdom to top it with 6 levels of Monk and an Amulet of Natural Armor + Cloak of Resistance is cheaper than a Periapt of Wisdom. i.e. you could have an 8 Wisdom and use Still Mind/Good Will saves of a Monk to get away with it. +20 feet of movement - nice, but not that nice - it is an enhancement bonus. When people start using Haste, you slow down to the same speed that everyone else is moving at. Everything else functions in Light Armor. Even your unarmed damage and ki strike - you just don't get the extra attack. In Medium or Heavy armor, you just lose Evasion. But by wearing armor, you lose some other monk abilities that are super nifty. ~hf
Slithik 09-21-04, 12:29 AM	Erm I was talking about a totally different build, not improving Radical's. :D This build is for the annoying monk, not his chain fighter. ;)
Snicker-Snack 09-21-04, 12:38 AM	I have just taken a quick look at the build, so i might be missing something, but do you think you really need both Stand Still and Improved Trip? Taking only one of both might be better. Also, though you probably can't waste so many levels with a single class, i think it would be worth mentioning that the tenth level ability from Blade Bravo is pretty annoying, specially combined with Karmic Strike.
handforged 09-21-04, 08:36 AM	Ok Mommy, you have convinced me that Wis isn't that important, but thematically it would be pretty darn cool. Thanks, Radical, for catching my mistake, I had put Weapon Focus at level 12 and gone into EWM, but took it out to leave the build open. Slithik, your build looks pretty awesome as well, but could you please find the rules that you quote about ability stacking? greater flurry and improved evasion? ~hf
Slithik 09-21-04, 02:40 PM	I can't for the life of me remember where those rules are. I know they exist but I have no idea where :confused: . Even without Imp. Evasion and Greater Flurry, I think the build is quite deadly. And I know those rules are out there.... somewhere.....
Slithik 09-22-04, 12:16 AM	It is unclear in v3.5 how or if the Monk's Flurry ability can be increased by taking levels of Monk-based PrCs (Red Avenger, Shintao Monk, Ninja of the Crescent Moon). Dragon #318 states that if the v3.0 class adds to Monk UBAB, then the v3.5 version of the class would add to Monk levels to determine the capability of your Flurry. Of course, they also say that the Tattooed Monk will add to Flurry, when thats been contradicted by (the previously published and v3.5) Complete Warrior. In any regard, you need to clear this ambiguity with your GM before embarking on any multiclassing with your monk. This (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=48573) is where I got the Flurry idea from. It seems a little up in the air, so I'm not really sure about it know. But there is the info, so take it as you please.