Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tealgorthian 12-06-04, 10:03 PM	Yeah, the ninja scroll thread kicked an old idea back to the front of my mind. Saitoh is one of my favorite anime characters of all time. He's judge, jury, and executioner. His primiary attack was a super powerful charge attack that just obliterated anything in his path. The scene where he stabbed Sano, then shoved him back through a wall, and into the wall across the room just made it more obvious in my mind. I made a Kenshin sort a while back in 3.0 that worked really well with IM. Now here is the problem. In an up coming 15th level game, I cant use OA. So how would I make this guy? No Eberron... no FR. No UA, and No Dragon Anything else works.
PhaedrusXY 12-06-04, 10:08 PM	Some Gish using Exotic Weapon Master, very high strength, Arcane Strike, and maybe Divine Might and/or Smite Evil (or good), if you can work the last two in there reasonably well. Aren't there some feats in the Complete Warrior that increase your damage on charges, also? Look in the Gish thread for Palladin/sorcerer combos.
Blade2718 12-06-04, 11:08 PM	Find a way to get him smite chaos.
Tonas 12-06-04, 11:24 PM	Hey, new to the boards but saw this thread and had to point out that the powerful charge and greater powerful charge feats from the miniatures handbook would be perfect for the gatotsu (not sure about the spelling) technique. Use a psychic warrior with the lion's charge power to get extra attacks at the end of the charge. Not sure if it lets you use the charge feats with the extra attacks though, but it's the closest thing I've found to useing the gatotsu.
Ramses III 12-07-04, 12:15 AM	Power Lunge could also help if your DM lets you use stuff that hasn't been reprinted from S&F; use it in a surprise round as flat-footed characters can't make AoOs.
Welcome 12-07-04, 05:16 AM	Valorous weapon : 2x damage on a charge ; unfortunately, IIRC that's OA. I heard it'd been reprinted in 3.5 but it's only +2d6 (lame). Power attack sounds like an obvious choice, maybe coupled with Banzai charge from the Ronin PrC (CW). Unfortunately he wields his blade one-handed, so no Dextrous attack cheese with PA.
Tenken 12-07-04, 09:57 AM	Just take up good ol' fighter class and max out your feats on all the charge attacks there are. As you remember, Saitoh had a bunch of different gatotsu attacks, with his most powerful one being called Gatotsu Zero, the Zero Stance, etc. It's a gatotsu attack from point blank, so I'm guessing that in D&D terms, he's basically doing a charge attack without actually charging. On top of that, it's a situation where if it hits, it's extremely devastating, but if it misses, *he* would be completely open. In D&D terms that seems to tell me that he's using some sort of Reckless Offense feat (from XPH I believe), and he's subtracting all his AC to add into his attack and damage. He's definitely got Power Attack in there somewhere as well. Someone mentioned Smite Chaos, that's a good feat as well. There's also a feat that allows you to deal extra damage to chaotic foes, that might be good as well. Also, I think Saitoh is Lawful Neutral. For reference, here are the types of gatotsu attacks (from http://www.geocities.com/pure_saiyajin/gatotsu.html): 1. The ordinary gatotsu is the one mentioned above. It's the basic form, standard for a lot of different situations. Remember, there is no constant angle. Keep your opponent guessing. 2. The second stance of gatotsu is cutting diagonally downwards. Instead of just trying to run your opponent through, instead, drive your blade from high to low. Good against short buggers and people who duck. 3. Third form is the 'anti-air' (taiku no gatostsu, i think) gatotsu. The form is pretty much the same as the normal gatotsu, but this time, point your sword upwards. Jump, then stab up, and you've got it. It's pretty simple. 4. Finally, comes the ultimate technique, also known as the ogi, secret sword, Zero stance, and Gatotsu zero. It's a high risk move, in an all or nothing situation. It's a gatotsu from point blank, putting all the upper body strength plus the springing of the legs into one strike. If this misses, it's all over. If it hits, it's all over.
Wayne 12-07-04, 12:23 PM	Hm... just 15 levels, and you need to make a samurai without OA, and a charge-based character without UE's Valorous? Ow. *chuckles* But hey, for Saitoh, it's worth a shot, right? :D Awesome character; probably one of my favorites from RK (on the whole I didn't like the anime that much, honestly, but Saitoh was certainly an exception). Anyway, I was thinking about this (depending on how flexible your DM is): Monk 4/Fighter 2/Ranger 1/Justiciar (CW) 2/Exotic Weapon Master (CW) 1/Vigilante (S&S) 5 BAB +12. The big deal here is Vigilante (unfortunately the odd class out with its unfathomable 3/4 BAB), which at 5/7/10 grants Punish the Guilty (which is a Smite attack, mechanically-- hence the "DM flexibility" remark, there's no reason to not interpret it that way, but...), which fits Saitoh perfectly. (It also grants a few bonus spells and a few other abilities.) Justiciar is there largely to provide the needed Gather Information ranks (Human Paragon would probably be a better choice under normal conditions, or some feat that would make it a class skill); I couldn't think of any other classes (Saitoh is definitely not a Rogue or Bard!). Monk represents his AC despite not wearing armor and his unarmed strength (like Sanosuke found out, heh :D); it was originally Fighter 4/Monk 3 but Ranger grants the needed Track plus some extra damage against humans, which is always good. The only feats you need to take for those are Skill Focus (Gather Information), Weapon proficiency (and Focus) with katana, and Alertness, which leaves five remaining feats (by my count). Power Lunge and Powerful Charge are obvious picks; combined with the EWM's Uncanny Blow (yeah, Saitoh technically wields his katana one-handed, but since that's painfully stupid in D&D and he has his off-hand free, we'll assume otherwise for mechanics :]) you have Str x3 on a charge, which sort of makes up for not having Valorous, heh. Reckless Charge plus Reckless Offense offers To Hit for AC (the Ronin's Bonzai Charge would be better, but CW's flavor makes it non-Lawful, and out of reach for the extremely LN Hajime, heh...), so that with Power Attack pretty much takes care of the charge damage. After all that, in the future, the most flavorful choice would possibly be Improved Sunder for Combat Brute-- Sundering Cleave is good for a Gatotsu Zero against Usui, and Momentum Swing helps for the more traditional charges. If you could get Powerful Build or a size increase in there, Saitoh practically begs for Awesome Blow (MM). But unfortunately.... So, basically... Charges are at +4 (+6 if Reckless Offense stacks, but I don't think it does) for -4 AC (or -8), and deal d10 + Str x3 + d8 (and with Ki Focus you can toss in a stunning attempt for that), which of course is combined with Power Attack; smiting the guilty adds Cha to hit and +5 damage on top of that. Then once you get Momentum Swing, the follow-up does some pretty nice damage (the Power Attack penalty amount x4, thanks to Uncanny Blow). Just some ideas, for the vaccuum left by the disallowal of an Oriental setting for a Japanese character.... :[ Or even FR; I can't help thinking how cool a Monk 10/Shou Disciple 5 would be coupled with some Charging feats (a Ki Focus weapon lets you do Axiomatic Strikes with your katana, which you can also Flurry with). Ah well.
Welcome 12-07-04, 12:36 PM	(the Ronin's Bonzai Charge would be better, but CW's flavor makes it non-Lawful, and out of reach for the extremely LN Hajime, heh...) :eek: Yeah, I can just picture a guy pulling out a miniature tree from his backpocket and attempting to smash it in your face ! :D Sorry, I don't usually correct spelling mistakes on forums, but this one was just too good to pass by. ;) And a good point about the alignment too.
Tealgorthian 12-07-04, 12:51 PM	(Greater) and Powerful Charge definately seem like they are needed. I cannot find Power Lunge, Reckless Charge (found offense), or Momentum Swing :| I dont play melee types that often. This seems overly difficult :P
Tenken 12-07-04, 01:44 PM	(Greater) and Powerful Charge definately seem like they are needed. I cannot find Power Lunge, Reckless Charge (found offense), or Momentum Swing :| I dont play melee types that often. This seems overly difficult :P Power Lunge is either in Complete Warrior or Sword and Fist (or both). Reckless Charge is in Races of Stone I think. never heard of Momentum Swing, so I have no clue. Btw, Tenken no Soujiro would own Saitoh :P
Wayne 12-07-04, 02:21 PM	Yeah, but Soujiro Seta could probably own most of the characters in RK. When you've earned the nickname "Sword God" at, like, 12, you're the man, no questions asked. *laughs* Good catch, Welcome. Heh, oops; I made that mistake a couple times back when I lived in Okinawa, and apparently I never learned. *chuckles* And I apologize for not stating where those feats were from earlier (I remembered it for the classes, though, which is weird :/). Power Lunge is indeed S&F; Powerful Charge and Reckless Charge are Miniatures Handbook, and Momentum Swing is part of Combat Brute, a [Tactical] feat from Complete Warrior (and an excellent one; Elusive Defense is the only one I prefer more). The problem with the Powerful Charges is that they only add +d8 (+2d6 with Greater) to the charge, while if you use the Reckless feats, you can turn the to hit bonus into flat damage (and a huge multiplier with Momentum Swing)-- much better with multipliers (like Valorous, or getting a critical-- the Gatotsu that cut Usui in half in the manga was definitely one, heh). Of course, the best approach is to have both. :D Monk is obligatory for a character who fights without armor (though you could make a case for his uniform being some equivalent to Rhino Hide for more free damage) and out-punches Sanosuke. *chuckles* Evasion and enhanced speed help the flavor. Ranger ('Urban' Ranger is much more appropriate) is just there for the free Track (a prereq) and Favored Enemy bonus, and could be dropped in favor of Fighter 4/Monk 3 (or something similar). Exotic Weapon Master exists for the sole purpose of stacking Uncanny Blow with other Strength multiples (both Power Lunge and Momentum Swing)-- necessary to fill the overkill factor for the Gatotsu-- and representing his skill with the katana. It could probably go... but I can't think of anything better with the book selection to replace it with. Justiciar is definitely better for Kenshin (who uses both subduing strikes and Cripples a few opponents); like I mentioned, it's only there so Saitoh can take Vigilante (which is just about perfect for him; the only catch is that it grants spells and a 3/4 BAB, both of which don't really fit), with its painful 8 ranks in Gather Information. (If UA was allowed, I would definitely recommend Human Paragon-- your BAB is the same, you keep two feats, and you still get the skills.) Punish the Guilty is exactly what he does, which is where I was going with the ability-- Smite Chaos isn't that appropriate, since characters like Shishio are definitely LE, but still very 'guilty.' *chuckles* You could go with a more simplistic Fighter (or Fighter/Monk) build, and just go for feats, which could work well too. If you have access to some kind of "Paladin of Law," with Smite Chaos and the relevant abilities, that'd be even better than staying with Fighter (but I'm not aware of any such thing in the main D&D books). My approach was to try to offer some more flavorful abilities (trying to make up the gap in not having access to OA) while still being a powerful character (probably stronger than a straight Fighter would be-- but admittedly, that's not saying much :/).
Tealgorthian 12-07-04, 02:58 PM	Let's just assume you could use OA, how would you do it then? Paladin of Law wouldnt be hard to play or make. I could probably write one up in less than an hour. I've complied all these feats and am working on something, but homeschooling my kids and all, it;s slow going. Thanks for the help so far :)
Tenken 12-07-04, 03:22 PM	Let's just assume you could use OA, how would you do it then? Paladin of Law wouldnt be hard to play or make. I could probably write one up in less than an hour. I've complied all these feats and am working on something, but homeschooling my kids and all, it;s slow going. Thanks for the help so far :) I wouldn't do anything different really. Instead of ftr20, I'd go samurai20, that's about the only difference. There's just no denying that anime characters require a ton of feats to reproduce, and ftr or sam is the only way to do it. You can get cool little powers here and there by switching around classes, but Saitoh was definitely a samurai in the beginning and definitely turned into some sort of Marshal, or Justicar, or Paladin that was Lawful Neutral. There's no way in the D&D world that Saitoh can outduel Kenshin, because the Iajustu attack just totally owns, but it's not what Saitoh uses unfortunately.
Wayne 12-07-04, 04:16 PM	OA has a few tricks in it that just help in building a more effective character-- Honorable weapons (+2d6 vs. nonlawful and nongood opponents), the Singh Rager class (full attack on a charge, plus a Rage ability-- which Saitoh's gone into in his more intense fights) coupled with Furious weapons (increases a Rage), and more flexible Samurai classes (that are more like Fighters, in that they grant bonus feats). I like the Marshal idea; I'd thought about that myself (the Art of War minor aura adds Charisma to, among other things, tripping and bull rushing, which would be great in conjunction with Knockdown/Pushback to mimic the strength of his Gatotsu), but I didn't think it really fit that much. By the time Saitoh comes back in the RK TV series, he's pretty much the lawful warrior/vigilante type, and no longer a samurai, which makes trying to pigeonhole him into a D&D level build that much harder. Anyway, with OA allowed, dropping Vigilante and using CW's Kensai with OA's Singh Rager seems like a good combination to represent the sheer power of his Gatotsu charges-- with the Rage (boosted with a Furious katana; Kensai can imbue it) coupled with Power Surge, he has +14 Strength, which is pretty crazy when you consider that the modifier gets tripled during a charge. (So instead of specifically Punishing the Guilty, he can beat anybody. :D) Kensai also has the twofold flavor advantage of the Oath of Loyalty plus Ki Projection (level-based bonus on the social skills-- like Intimidate). With a 15 level build I'd do this: Monk 3/Samurai 2/Kensai 4/Exotic Weapon Master 2/Singh Rager (OA) 4 It requires Iron Will, Ki Shout (meh :/), Weapon Focus (Katana) (OA Samurai gives you the proficiency), and Expertise, and gives you two bonus Monk feats, one bonus Samurai feat, and plenty of class abilities. You have feats to spend on Charging, but I still recommend Combat Brute for both Sundering Cleave (guaranteed to own turtle-shell-wearing blind killers, or your money back :]) and Momentum Swing (more raw power when you Charge-- heh)-- as far as I know there's no way to charge without at least some movement, so Charge feats won't help on the Zero Gatotsu (which is really the most powerful of the techniques). That's why I recommended Reckless Offense (you can still get some Power Attack fodder with it) as well as Reckless Charge, even if they don't stack (I'd rule they do, but then I think defining charge as its own, separate action, was kind of dumb anyway). Going back to what Tenken was saying, a lot of feats are good at representing anime characters, and it helps to have a ton. But I think that some good class abilities tend to work better, especially since some feats are limited (or restrictive)-- I mean, Kenshin simply won't be as powerful without Iaijutsu Master, and Soujiro Seta is probably the best example of the Blinding Speed [Epic :/] feat I can think of. Again, just a few ideas, from one anime and D&D fan to another. :D
Tenken 12-07-04, 04:29 PM	Going back to what Tenken was saying, a lot of feats are good at representing anime characters, and it helps to have a ton. But I think that some good class abilities tend to work better, especially since some feats are limited (or restrictive)-- I mean, Kenshin simply won't be as powerful without Iaijutsu Master, and Soujiro Seta is probably the best example of the Blinding Speed [Epic :/] feat I can think of. Getting off-track here, but Kenshin most definitely has IM classes. Soujiro doesn't need the epic feat of Blinding Speed. Just make him a psychic warrior, and he can use the Dimension Slide speed. THAT'S what he uses. Seriously, the guy just disappears from where he's at. He also has the Blade Dancer class. If you think about it, he can just use Dimension Slide, attack, and then move faaaaaaar away. Far enough that the guy won't be able to charge you (80+ feet). Add in the IM classes needed for the Iajutsu focus attacks, and he'll put up quite a fight :) What does Blinding Speed do anyway? Getting back on topic, Saitoh, like most characters from stories, needs to be narrowed down. You need to know what you want to focus on in relation to it's importance. Like, if you want to focus on combat, and you don't care for his personality, but you like the fact that he's a policeman, then list it out as (from most important to least): 1. combat 2. policeman 3. character personality This way we can help you out better.
Tealgorthian 12-07-04, 04:30 PM	Why, oh why, does D&D Exalted have to be SO FREAKIN LAME. Stalker of Evil seems to fit exactly what I want for him, but Exalted and Saitoh? No, not happening. I probably cant squeek out a 3.0 Sam when there is a 3.5 Sam right there. Maybe (CA)Sam1/monk2/ftr2/singh ranger4/EWM2/vigilante5/ Then I am lost. Gives me EWP kanata for free, two monk feats, two fighter feats, lion's pounce, singh rage, two EWM tricks, and Punish the Guilty. Alteratively, I could take a level of ranger to get Favored Enemy (Humans) and Foe hunter. Edit for Tenken I never really saw him as a "policeman". He kinda brandished his own form of law. I'm not going to rip him off totally, but I definately want to get the dark, self confidant brutal killer thing going on. He kills those that earn it, and does it efficently. I guess if I had to list, I go Combat/Intimidation Personality Policeman.
Skyrocket 12-07-04, 04:59 PM	Since he was a leader in the Shinsengumi I think Marshal would be a good fit. The Shinsengumi were samurai so there's some levels there. Though I suppose you could switch those levels for fighter depending on what books you have.
Wayne 12-07-04, 06:32 PM	Tenken-- Yeah, I agree about Kenshin and Soujiro. Sorry if that sentence of mine was unclear; but the references to Iaijutsu Master (a PrC) and Blinding Speed (an Epic feat) were to address your advice to focus on just Samurai levels for bonus feats, which I disagreed with (it's not a bad idea, don't get me wrong; but I think some class abilities are better, and presented Kenshin with IM as an example). That's all. :] Blinding Speed gives you 5 rounds of 3.0 Haste which don't need to be used consecutively, every time you take it. I figured that with the Blade Dancer's souped-up Fast Movement were obvious picks, and in my old writeup of Tenken I tossed in Sandals of Swiftness (the ELH has Boots of Swiftness, which is an awesome item-- among other things, you get doubled speed, +6 Dex, bonuses to the acrobatic skills, etc.). He needs psionics for Speed of Thought and probably Psionic Charge, but I disagree on Dimension Slide/Door-- for one thing, it takes a lot of levels to be able to augment (even with Overchannel) the MEA or Swift action versions. Honestly, I don't think he was either teleporting or Charging-- he was just that fast. That, to me, implies a really high base speed and the breaking of Blade Dancer's Fast Movement table, so he can easily cross from one side to the room and back without even trying (and with Enhanced Mobility to provide his obviously incredible AC). And I'm not really sure how best to do that without a certain Epic item/feat combination (as he's obviously not an Anthropomorphic Cheetah :D). Tealgorthian-- Hey, looks good. I prefer Monk 3 since it offers a better unarmed die with a Monk's Belt (Monk 8 has 1d10) and has Still Mind, but the free katana proficiency is nice, and Saitoh is a Samurai. *chuckles* The only catch is that Vigilante requires 8 ranks in Gather Information (the entire reason I had to use Justiciar to begin with :/), which you can't get cross-class until 13th level. As for the BOED-- yeah, I'm doubly annoyed that Exalted has two classes (the Stalker, and PGTF's Harper Paragon) that grant a Favored Enemy bonus against everybody opposed to their alignment and have Nemesis (an excellent feat for that purpose)-- which means you can then take Foe Hunter against all of them. ...and Vile gets the Mortal Hunter. Yay? :/
Tenken 12-07-04, 06:52 PM	Hehe, I realize that Soujiro doesn't teleport when he uses his suku-chi, but that's the closest thing you get to it in D&D terms. Otherwise, you'll have to go the Blade Dancer route, but he DEFINITELY has at least 5 levels of IM, and he's definitely the fastest guy in that series, so if you're going the BD route, he'll need 10 levels of that. So I guess at the very earliest, you'll have to be epic level to be Soujiro hehe.
Quenditar 12-07-04, 08:01 PM	If you go Dervish 2/Iaijutsu Master 5/Blade Dancer 7, you can get a base speed of 85 feet - not as fast as possible (I think a Monk10/BD10 gets 120 ft.), but it might be the best that can be done pre-Epic.
Quenditar 12-09-04, 04:21 PM	*Shishio Makoto looks around* "I may have failed to conquer Japan, but I have conquered this thread! *plants a little Shishio flag* *manaical laughter*
Tealgorthian 12-09-04, 04:28 PM	Well, I made a half way good charge build, but it fits Saitoh like a glove fits your foot. 1 Ftr 1 Power Attack, EWP (Bastard Sword), Improved Sunder 2 Barb 1 3 Ftr 2 Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Mageslayer 4 Barb 2 5 Barb 3 6 Barb 4 Combat Brute 7 Ronin 1 8 Ronin 2 9 Ronin 3 Powerful Charge 10 EWM 1 (Uncanny Blow) 11 Ronin 4 12 Ronin 5 Greater Powerful Charge, Point Blank Shot 13 Ronin 6 14 Ronin 7 15 Ronin 8 Neraph Charge I suppose you could change Ronin to something else, and make it lawful, but Like the idea of Neraph Charge for the sneak attack dice.] Edit- Oh, and if you can make a lawful version of the Ronin, change the barb levels to monk levels.