Another AT question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Another AT question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Diabolic Doppelganger
07-22-04, 01:17 AM I am interested in an AT build (Starting at level 15)!!! I know that it is usually waek at low levels, but I am not playing in a low-level campaign.

I have read the links (even the 6 page one), and have figured that it comes down to this...

Rogue 1
Wizard 2-6
Assassin 7
AT 8-17

With the Practiced spellcaster feat, all I am losing is...

2 level of spell progression (not caster level progressxion).

My simple question is this:

Is higher level spells worth what the AT, Rogue, and Assassin levels give?

Thanx in advance.
Caelic
07-22-04, 01:28 AM Out of curiosity, are you allowed to use Unearthed Arcana? The "generic spellcaster" class is almost tailor-made for Arcane Trickster.
jdm5000
07-22-04, 10:19 AM What is the Practiced Spellcaster feat? What does it do and where can it be found?
Prism
07-22-04, 10:38 AM Personally I like the evasion ability and the extra skill points of the rog 3 version. You also get a +1 BAB which is always useful for ranged touch attacks. Even with 3 lost caster levels by the time you get to 15th a like the AT as much as a straight caster, especially with practiced spellcaster

What should influence your decision is whether there is another full caster in the party. If there is then you should cope just fine - if not then the lack off access to highest level spells is sometimes a problem

I'm playing a mid level AT at the moment and I'm primary caster. It only works because we are playing a very flexible city campaign which is very player driven - we simply don't accept adventures that require a high level caster. If we needed on we would hire one for the mission.

So as long as you are happy to make the best out of the spells you have, combined often with sneak damage, and your party has the right expectation of your ability you should have a great time.

jdm5000 - Practiced spellcaster increases your caster level for effects up to your hit dice (max of 4 caster levels). So a wizard7/rog3/AT10 would have a caster level of 20th and so would a soc6/rog4/AT10. The wizard would get spells per day as a 17th level wizard and the soc as a 16th level soc however
jdm5000
07-22-04, 11:14 AM Originally posted by Prism

jdm5000 - Practiced spellcaster increases your caster level for effects up to your hit dice (max of 4 caster levels). So a wizard7/rog3/AT10 would have a caster level of 20th and so would a soc6/rog4/AT10. The wizard would get spells per day as a 17th level wizard and the soc as a 16th level soc however

I heard both that it affects spells known and spells per day and that is doesn't affect spell known and spells per day.

Before I go out an buy the book (that'll be this weekend) can someone confirm?
Caelic
07-22-04, 12:11 PM It does not affect spells known and spells per day...just caster level.

(Good heavens...four full caster levels for one feat? Sign me up!)
SoulLord
07-22-04, 12:41 PM ok the AT is not the primary caster of the party and so you shouldnt worry about losing some caster levels.
unless you are taking the role of primary spellcaster in which case
its best to pursue other builds as to be a very efective wizard.

what will your other party members be?

SoulLord
Isthramir
07-22-04, 01:32 PM If you are not fulfilling the arcane caster role for your party, but you are filling the SkillMonkey slot I'm kinda partial to the Rog 3/Human Paragon 3/Wizard 3 lead in to AT. You lose 1 more level of spells (and will never get 9th level spells, but my campeigns never hit 20), but get more skill points and UMD becomes a class skill for all your classes via adaptive learning.
rilem
07-22-04, 01:36 PM I'd second Prism's comment about Evasion. It's crucial for a low-HP character such as an AT. I'd include Rog3 in your prefix rather than the assassin route.
Snow Savant
07-22-04, 01:51 PM Starting at 15th level, you can play an AT with the trad Rog3/Wiz5 prefix and be just fine.

Keep in mind, I just recently retired my 19th level AT I played from level 5 on up. And even though she was powerful at that she did, I would never EVER take the AT PrC again via a build with non-contiguous spellcaster level progression. And no, the Practiced Spellcaster feat is not the panacea for that problem - although it makes those missing spellcaster levels more tolerable (and, it is a balanced feat).

I found that at around 13th-14th level, her synergy and overall effectiveness really started to *pop*. So you too, should be okay.

I highly advise you avoid any Assassin levels, as that means more hit to your already crappy BAB. And face it, you want to fire range-touch-attack rays a lot. BAB is crucial ... even 1 or 2 off what it could be optimally is too big a hit.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
Diabolic Doppelganger
07-22-04, 04:14 PM I have decided to drop the level of assassin, and adding a level of Invisible Blade in its place... Unfettered Defense basically gives a +1 to AC, and the Prc adds a +1 to BAB.

I am trying to make a rogue that focuses on stealing other mages spells and magic items.

It seems that adding the three levels of rogue is the common advice, should I still contemplate the AT, or does it just seem fun.

I have read what you have posted Snow, and wonder whether or not you advocate the use of Arcane Trickster, could you tell me what you think about the Arcane Trickster?

As far as the other members in the group, I do not know... we are a group of peer-killers, and as such have to worry about the DM and each other...

Although this may seem crappy, it is a lot of fun, because the goal is individual survival.

Hope this answers your questions.
Andreas0815
07-22-04, 04:29 PM Well, but invisible blade only gives DAGGER sneakattack dices. I wonder if your DM will let it count for the AT requirement because you don´t have +2d6 sneakattack dices if you use rays...
Snow Savant
07-22-04, 05:31 PM As far as the other members in the group, I do not know... we are a group of peer-killers, and as such have to worry about the DM and each other...Not good. Kinda puts a crimp in the "collaborative storytelling game" emphasis of D&D. Well, all I can say is ... I hope you don't get backstabbed! :eek:
I have read what you have posted Snow, and wonder whether or not you advocate the use of Arcane Trickster, could you tell me what you think about the Arcane Trickster? Depends. Organically-grown AT's started at lower levels tends to suck. As stated prior, they gain some momentum (in high powered games) at around 13th/14th levels. Which makes for a sucky gaming experience for 2/3's of your pre-epic career. I tend to prefer AT's built on a UA Generic Spellcaster chassis (which unfortunately, use Sorc mechanics for their INT-based spellcasting) ... or custom-crafted "Stealth Wizards" using Harper Mage levels and what-not to crank up key skills like Hide/MS/Spot/Listen, etc. 20 spellcaster levels in 20 levels cannot be overstated enough, if you want to milk the ultimate power out of a Wizard. Even missing 1 spellcaster level can make you cry at times, for a myriad of reasons I have posted in he past.

For my Generic Spellcaster AT build, go to this post * here * (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3311670&highlight=generic#post3311670) back from a May, 2004 post on Fidelio's excellent AT thread.

While it ain't a pure Wiz AT (which are hands-down, the best), it does have full spellcaster progression.

The skill rank allocation in the beginning is awkward, but neccesery to meet the AT pre-req.'s.

Hope that helps!

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
Lakom
07-22-04, 05:47 PM I would suggest to you the otherwordly feat from PGtF...it really powers up you character...IMO those outsider forms are just what you need to circumvent the casters level loss.
cultjake
07-23-04, 02:56 AM Still a big fan of Snow's Rog3Bard7ATx build, especially for an advanced start level:

lots of skill points
effective use of UMD can make wand blasting great
spontaneous casting
excellent face skills
not too much MAD (cha, dex, int)
archery or thrown weapons viable as well

You say you have a party of malcontents who like to forcibly disagree. There's no party glue like a Bard to give everyone the warm & fuzzies about how freakin' heroic they all are.

Or, if you fear the worst, pump skill points into Bluff and Sense Motive and be the last character standing on the treasure hoard at the end of the line.
Mommy was an Orc
07-23-04, 12:54 PM I like my version a little better:
Rogue 3/Bard 7/Divine Crusader 2/AT 8

One less sneak attack die and a few less skills, but...

Instead of having 6th level Bard spells, you get 3rd level Bard Spells, 9th level Cleric Spells of one domain - Trickery, Luck for more stealth-oriented characters, Mysticism, Competition for more combat-oriented ones - most Rogues can't cast Quickened Divine Power....And you have the same MAD requirements.

Originally posted by cultjake
Still a big fan of Snow's Rog3Bard7ATx build, especially for an advanced start level:
Snow Savant
07-23-04, 01:07 PM Bard6 / Fatekeeper7 / NarDemonbinder1 / AT6

A cute, if interesting alternate Arcane Trickster build. It uses the new Fatekeeper (or whatever the hell its called) PrC in the Planar Handbook. Like Bard and ND, the Fatekeeper also has CHA-based spellcasting with Sorceror casting mechanics.

Final tally of BAB +12, 3 different spellcaster classes, Bard Fascinate/Suggestion (my fave!), +6d6 SA, and 8th level spells at pre-epic culmination. Plus, with that magic item that gives Bards +4 levels added to their Bard Song ability, you have Bard Song like that of a 10th level Bard. And of course, you are an awesome skill monkey to boot - with little problems with M.A.D.!

This is definitely more of a cohort or 5th-man type build, but a cool one nonetheless.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Diabolic Doppelganger 07-22-04, 01:17 AM	I am interested in an AT build (Starting at level 15)!!! I know that it is usually waek at low levels, but I am not playing in a low-level campaign. I have read the links (even the 6 page one), and have figured that it comes down to this... Rogue 1 Wizard 2-6 Assassin 7 AT 8-17 With the Practiced spellcaster feat, all I am losing is... 2 level of spell progression (not caster level progressxion). My simple question is this: Is higher level spells worth what the AT, Rogue, and Assassin levels give? Thanx in advance.
Caelic 07-22-04, 01:28 AM	Out of curiosity, are you allowed to use Unearthed Arcana? The "generic spellcaster" class is almost tailor-made for Arcane Trickster.
jdm5000 07-22-04, 10:19 AM	What is the Practiced Spellcaster feat? What does it do and where can it be found?
Prism 07-22-04, 10:38 AM	Personally I like the evasion ability and the extra skill points of the rog 3 version. You also get a +1 BAB which is always useful for ranged touch attacks. Even with 3 lost caster levels by the time you get to 15th a like the AT as much as a straight caster, especially with practiced spellcaster What should influence your decision is whether there is another full caster in the party. If there is then you should cope just fine - if not then the lack off access to highest level spells is sometimes a problem I'm playing a mid level AT at the moment and I'm primary caster. It only works because we are playing a very flexible city campaign which is very player driven - we simply don't accept adventures that require a high level caster. If we needed on we would hire one for the mission. So as long as you are happy to make the best out of the spells you have, combined often with sneak damage, and your party has the right expectation of your ability you should have a great time. jdm5000 - Practiced spellcaster increases your caster level for effects up to your hit dice (max of 4 caster levels). So a wizard7/rog3/AT10 would have a caster level of 20th and so would a soc6/rog4/AT10. The wizard would get spells per day as a 17th level wizard and the soc as a 16th level soc however
jdm5000 07-22-04, 11:14 AM	Originally posted by Prism jdm5000 - Practiced spellcaster increases your caster level for effects up to your hit dice (max of 4 caster levels). So a wizard7/rog3/AT10 would have a caster level of 20th and so would a soc6/rog4/AT10. The wizard would get spells per day as a 17th level wizard and the soc as a 16th level soc however I heard both that it affects spells known and spells per day and that is doesn't affect spell known and spells per day. Before I go out an buy the book (that'll be this weekend) can someone confirm?
Caelic 07-22-04, 12:11 PM	It does not affect spells known and spells per day...just caster level. (Good heavens...four full caster levels for one feat? Sign me up!)
SoulLord 07-22-04, 12:41 PM	ok the AT is not the primary caster of the party and so you shouldnt worry about losing some caster levels. unless you are taking the role of primary spellcaster in which case its best to pursue other builds as to be a very efective wizard. what will your other party members be? SoulLord
Isthramir 07-22-04, 01:32 PM	If you are not fulfilling the arcane caster role for your party, but you are filling the SkillMonkey slot I'm kinda partial to the Rog 3/Human Paragon 3/Wizard 3 lead in to AT. You lose 1 more level of spells (and will never get 9th level spells, but my campeigns never hit 20), but get more skill points and UMD becomes a class skill for all your classes via adaptive learning.
rilem 07-22-04, 01:36 PM	I'd second Prism's comment about Evasion. It's crucial for a low-HP character such as an AT. I'd include Rog3 in your prefix rather than the assassin route.
Snow Savant 07-22-04, 01:51 PM	Starting at 15th level, you can play an AT with the trad Rog3/Wiz5 prefix and be just fine. Keep in mind, I just recently retired my 19th level AT I played from level 5 on up. And even though she was powerful at that she did, I would never EVER take the AT PrC again via a build with non-contiguous spellcaster level progression. And no, the Practiced Spellcaster feat is not the panacea for that problem - although it makes those missing spellcaster levels more tolerable (and, it is a balanced feat). I found that at around 13th-14th level, her synergy and overall effectiveness really started to pop. So you too, should be okay. I highly advise you avoid any Assassin levels, as that means more hit to your already crappy BAB. And face it, you want to fire range-touch-attack rays a lot. BAB is crucial ... even 1 or 2 off what it could be optimally is too big a hit. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Diabolic Doppelganger 07-22-04, 04:14 PM	I have decided to drop the level of assassin, and adding a level of Invisible Blade in its place... Unfettered Defense basically gives a +1 to AC, and the Prc adds a +1 to BAB. I am trying to make a rogue that focuses on stealing other mages spells and magic items. It seems that adding the three levels of rogue is the common advice, should I still contemplate the AT, or does it just seem fun. I have read what you have posted Snow, and wonder whether or not you advocate the use of Arcane Trickster, could you tell me what you think about the Arcane Trickster? As far as the other members in the group, I do not know... we are a group of peer-killers, and as such have to worry about the DM and each other... Although this may seem crappy, it is a lot of fun, because the goal is individual survival. Hope this answers your questions.
Andreas0815 07-22-04, 04:29 PM	Well, but invisible blade only gives DAGGER sneakattack dices. I wonder if your DM will let it count for the AT requirement because you don´t have +2d6 sneakattack dices if you use rays...
Snow Savant 07-22-04, 05:31 PM	As far as the other members in the group, I do not know... we are a group of peer-killers, and as such have to worry about the DM and each other...Not good. Kinda puts a crimp in the "collaborative storytelling game" emphasis of D&D. Well, all I can say is ... I hope you don't get backstabbed! :eek: I have read what you have posted Snow, and wonder whether or not you advocate the use of Arcane Trickster, could you tell me what you think about the Arcane Trickster? Depends. Organically-grown AT's started at lower levels tends to suck. As stated prior, they gain some momentum (in high powered games) at around 13th/14th levels. Which makes for a sucky gaming experience for 2/3's of your pre-epic career. I tend to prefer AT's built on a UA Generic Spellcaster chassis (which unfortunately, use Sorc mechanics for their INT-based spellcasting) ... or custom-crafted "Stealth Wizards" using Harper Mage levels and what-not to crank up key skills like Hide/MS/Spot/Listen, etc. 20 spellcaster levels in 20 levels cannot be overstated enough, if you want to milk the ultimate power out of a Wizard. Even missing 1 spellcaster level can make you cry at times, for a myriad of reasons I have posted in he past. For my Generic Spellcaster AT build, go to this post * here * (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3311670&highlight=generic#post3311670) back from a May, 2004 post on Fidelio's excellent AT thread. While it ain't a pure Wiz AT (which are hands-down, the best), it does have full spellcaster progression. The skill rank allocation in the beginning is awkward, but neccesery to meet the AT pre-req.'s. Hope that helps! XO, Snow :cloud9:
Lakom 07-22-04, 05:47 PM	I would suggest to you the otherwordly feat from PGtF...it really powers up you character...IMO those outsider forms are just what you need to circumvent the casters level loss.
cultjake 07-23-04, 02:56 AM	Still a big fan of Snow's Rog3Bard7ATx build, especially for an advanced start level: lots of skill points effective use of UMD can make wand blasting great spontaneous casting excellent face skills not too much MAD (cha, dex, int) archery or thrown weapons viable as well You say you have a party of malcontents who like to forcibly disagree. There's no party glue like a Bard to give everyone the warm & fuzzies about how freakin' heroic they all are. Or, if you fear the worst, pump skill points into Bluff and Sense Motive and be the last character standing on the treasure hoard at the end of the line.
Mommy was an Orc 07-23-04, 12:54 PM	I like my version a little better: Rogue 3/Bard 7/Divine Crusader 2/AT 8 One less sneak attack die and a few less skills, but... Instead of having 6th level Bard spells, you get 3rd level Bard Spells, 9th level Cleric Spells of one domain - Trickery, Luck for more stealth-oriented characters, Mysticism, Competition for more combat-oriented ones - most Rogues can't cast Quickened Divine Power....And you have the same MAD requirements. Originally posted by cultjake Still a big fan of Snow's Rog3Bard7ATx build, especially for an advanced start level:
Snow Savant 07-23-04, 01:07 PM	Bard6 / Fatekeeper7 / NarDemonbinder1 / AT6 A cute, if interesting alternate Arcane Trickster build. It uses the new Fatekeeper (or whatever the hell its called) PrC in the Planar Handbook. Like Bard and ND, the Fatekeeper also has CHA-based spellcasting with Sorceror casting mechanics. Final tally of BAB +12, 3 different spellcaster classes, Bard Fascinate/Suggestion (my fave!), +6d6 SA, and 8th level spells at pre-epic culmination. Plus, with that magic item that gives Bards +4 levels added to their Bard Song ability, you have Bard Song like that of a 10th level Bard. And of course, you are an awesome skill monkey to boot - with little problems with M.A.D.! This is definitely more of a cohort or 5th-man type build, but a cool one nonetheless. XO, Snow :cloud9: