Post/Author/DateTime	Post
yebvas 07-06-04, 01:15 AM	I managed to sift through 24 of 77 pages of search results on "Cleric." So please don't get too grumpy with me. This is my 1st "real game" ever, aside from a single modual before I enlisted, and a little here and there on FTX's in the Army, I don't have a lot of playing expirence. To get down to the point, I'm only allowed to use the core books (3.0): PHB, DMG, MM as "resources." And almost every build I could find was using some addon books or something similar. I get a 35 PB allotment, which may seem like a lot, but not for this campain (which he made). I'm just curious how powerful a cleric can be with the above requirments / allotments compared to the fighter, paladin, ranger, etc. I was hoping to make a melee cleric, seems like a lot of fun, especially since my scorceer is a big fat gimp (the way he works arcane magic). If someone wouldn't mind helping me out, tossing around some ideas, that would be pretty cool. Mike
xorn king 07-06-04, 01:34 AM	Look for NeonSmaurai's Min/max vault, I belive their are some clerics their. If not just go Human, and try to sneak you being a cleric of Hurcules. Get the normal stuff, Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, ect. ect, Hercules weapon is a greatclub, works well with Spikes (MoTW or CD 3.5) Just do the normal buffs, DP, DM, RM, Spikes, GMW, MV blah blah and you will be killing things nice an fast
Blade2718 07-06-04, 01:41 AM	Quicken Spell or metamagic rod of quicken will become your best friend for castings of the powerhouse spells of a melee cleric: divine power(BAB as Ftr of your caster level) and righteous might(+8 Str, +4 Con, +4 natural armor, large size, and damage resistance). Also of note, are Craft feats, mainly Craft Wonderous Item. Anything you can dream up and your DM will permit, can be created (cost, experience, time constraints observed). Extended Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, and Divine Favor all add to the overall craziness of the melee cleric.
Naja 07-06-04, 06:01 AM	Originally posted by xorn king Get the normal stuff, Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, ect. ect, works well with Spikes (MoTW or CD 3.5) He said: PHB, DMG, MM only. Though you should, with 3.0 rulings, definetly try to get your DM to allow you Persistant Spell. That said, your next best bet will be Quicken Spell for Divine Favor & Divine Power. Just hope that there wonīt be more than 2 or 3 challenging encounters a day. With 3.0 rulings, you should definetly take Extend Spell (even when Persistant stays forbidden) to extend your Buff Spells (Bullīs Strenght, Endurance: yes, even with Quickened Divine Power, for you could save some DPs in less challenging encounters). Look for a weapon you can wield twohanded if desired. Stay Core Cleric only (no PrCs) will allow for some more extra features, For Domains, I like Travel and Luck. But domains play less role in CORE only Melees, I think. Strength could be a once daily booster, War isnīt worth it for melees IMO. So, letīs try a build Human, Cleric. [Travel&Luck domains] Stat allocation order: WIS, CON, CHA, STR, DEX, INT Favored Weapon: Shortspear (it is argueably the most potent simple weapon without access to Spikes (Defenders of the Faith).) Feats: take Extend Spell at CL 3, Quicken Spell at CL 9. If you can spare another feat, take Empower Spell. Otherwise build just as you like (like a barbarian if you wish to). Some Suggestions for more clerical feats could be some Item creation feats, Improved Initiative, Alertness possibly. Your tactics should be to buff youself up with Bullīs Strength, Endurance, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment well before you get into trouble. In the first combat round, cast Divine Favor. Later(9-15): Cast Quickened Divine Favor, and cast Divine Power. after level 15: Cast Quickened Divine Power, cast Righteous Might. In the second round: cast quickened Divine Favor and full attack. This is a little bit less powerful than Persistant Spell builds and a very simple -yet flavorful- build. Just try to find yourself a matching diety (good weapon choices [unless you like to take the War Domain] will be shortspear and heavy mace) or alignment to pray to. If you do it right, thereīs no need to min/max much further.
Nazzareth 07-06-04, 09:30 AM	I would say take craft wand to make and yourself some wands of healing, this will enable you to use most of your daily alottment of spells for combat. Create wands with buff spells to throw on the party before and during combat. Craft Wondrous item feat would allow you to create many items with permanent effects or unlimited charges. For example it costs 1800 gps for you to create a cure light wounds item that has unlimited charges. These feats might help you or they might not depends what type of cleric you want to play. You could for archery feats aswell as in 3.0 ranged weapon and ammo bonuses stack together works well for elves. With two magic weapon spells and divine favor spell you could net +3 to hit damage on all bow attacks for a short while as a 1st level cleric.
yebvas 07-07-04, 04:20 PM	Thanks for the decent reply Naja (And noticing I can only use DMG, PHB, and MM)! I've kinda worked out what I think is a pretty decent character. A couple of questions for you though: Why take Quickenspell at 9th level? You won't be able to cast a quickened Divine power until level 15 and Rightous Might until level 17. I'm assuming since you have to prepare the spell as if it were 4 spell levels above the spell level that means instead of a level 4 spell, it would take the place of a level 8 and 9 respectivily. Am I wrong on that mark? For my Melee Cleric I'm probably going with Travel and War (unless my list of weapons arent acceptable, his relgious system is totaly different). If War doesn't work out, I'll go Travel and Luck. He still needs a good name, the hardest part for me :D Human, Cleric CL5 STR: 14 DEX: 12 CON: 16 INT: 11 WIS: 17 CHA: 10 HP: 47 AC: To be determined, without shield = 17 INIT: +5 BAB: +3 FORT: 7 REF: 2 WILL: 7 Melee: +5 Ranged: +4 Feats (8 total): Human: Improved Initiative 1st: Power Attack 3rd: Extend Spell 6th: Empower Spell 9th: Craft Wondorus Item 12th: Quicken Spell 15th: ? 18th: ? Random Notes: I figure "most" clerics would like to have a higher charisma modifier, but as far as I can determine, that only affects turning success / abilities. Thats not a big concern in this game. The weapons I am trying to get with War are as follows: Heavy Flail, Great Axe, Bastard Sword, Great Sword, Halberd. I'm really diggin' on the idea of a heavy flail. :D If I cant get any of those (or work something out), I'll go heavy mace and shield. When the baddies are almost dead, I'll drop the shield and get the str bonus to damage. I'm thinking of perhaps getting cleave too, but only if I can get a D10 or better weapon via war. But I have no idea where I would put it. I guess I would put Craft Wondorus Item after Quicken and bump Extend down and put it at 3rd level. Am I missing anything?
Blade2718 07-07-04, 04:45 PM	If you remove Empower and shift Quicken in its place, you'll be able to craft your own metamagic rod of quicken. With that beauty, you can quicken your three favorite buffs, without expending those precious 8-9th level spell slots. Your weapon choices are all good, but wait until you start playing before you pick up Cleave; it may not be a good choice in your DM's particular campaign. Craft Wand is also a good choice, to make wands of cure light wounds, the most economical healing item in the game. If you start play at higher levels (6+), however, it becomes more feat-efficient to just buy them.
yebvas 07-07-04, 05:07 PM	Interesting Ideas Blade. I'm actually already playing in the campain as a Sorcerer. Which, the way he has Arcane magic setup is kind of, well, to put it nicely, rediculous. Our encounters thus far are full of Orcs x20-30 (Avg 17hp, 16 AC), Orc Leaders x3-5 (Avg 30hp, 18+- AC), Orges 1-4(Avg 20-40hp, 14+ AC), Orcs on horses x1-6, etc. We have 5 players and a couple NPCs (which keep dying). And little magic items. My character started out very rich and bought a wagon and horses to carry orc loot back to town (which is the only reason we can keep feeding ourselves). The orcs must have Knowledge: Infantry Tactics +10 because they use extremly good tactics when in battle, especially if they have horses. I digress... the point I was trying to make is, Cleave is kind of nice when your surrounded, or have a leader and his minions. One shot the minnion take a cleave at the big baddie. Repeat. I might not even be able to take C.W.I. I don't know how magic (items) is going to work at later levels. Would it be totaly out of character to get a war dog / wolf for a clerics compaion?
Blade2718 07-07-04, 05:17 PM	This, then establishes that Cleave is a good feat option for you. And you'll have to ask about how he plans on dealing with item crafting.
catharz 07-07-04, 05:36 PM	The whole quicken Divine power thing is really shady. If you only get it for one combat, why bother? It just ends up being a waste. IMO it is better to stick with the long duration buffs (this being 3.0 that includes Endurance/Strength). And don't just buff yourself. Buff the entire party. Get a Bead of Karma as soon as you can, and go wild! At your level, wearing Full plate and a large shield with Magic vestiment, Endurance, and Strength you'll definately be able to melee, but use a normal Cleric weapon. Of course, this is assuming that you don't adventure for more then 5 hours a day, which is a little optimistic. For your War domain weapon, drop the idea of getting a melee weapon and get a Longbow instead. Unless you really hate the idea of archery. For the cost of two 4th level spell slots, you can enchant the bow and ammo for free. Before you can get a bead of karma, try to barter buffs with the party Wizard: Endurance and whatever for two (3rd level) Greater magic weapons. If you can get Spell storing arrows past your DM, more power to ya! But I can't stress this enough: Don't use short-duration buffs unless you can buff the entire party with them, and doing so would really be more useful then casting some other kind of spell or getting an extra attack action.
yebvas 07-07-04, 07:24 PM	For your War domain weapon, drop the idea of getting a melee weapon and get a Longbow instead. Unless you really hate the idea of archery. For the cost of two 4th level spell slots, you can enchant the bow and ammo for free. If you can get Spell storing arrows past your DM, more power to ya! I was just thinking of a huge melee damage cleric. If I kept power attack, it would then take two more feats to make archery viable, which of course is still subject to cover when shooting "through" someone. I think anyway. And as per the second thing, if that spell isn't in the PHB, DMG, or MM -- no way.
Blade2718 07-07-04, 09:14 PM	"That" spell is in the PHB- greater magic weapon.
yebvas 07-08-04, 12:37 AM	I guess I don't see how an archer could be "better" than a melee cleric. I get 8 feats for being a human cleric. Melee Cleric Feats: 1: Improved Iniative 2: Power Attack 3: Cleave 4: Extend Spell 5: Quicken Spell 6: Craft Wonderous Item 7: free 8: free Ranged Cleric Feats: 1: Improved Iniative 2: Point Blank Shot 3: Precise Shot 4: Rapid Shot 5: Many Shot 6: free 7: free 8: free A ranged Cleric also has to use his Ranged bonus (which is hindered by armor) and use his STR bonus for composite bows. So thats 2 stats that need to be high instead of just one. Rightous Might and Divine Power also lend themselves to melee not ranged (Dont know where I could ever get a +11 composite bow). 9th level (I'm assuming they all stack, I cant find where it says they wont): 14 Base STR Divine Power +6 STR Bulls Stength +5 STR (max) Rightous Might +8 STR STR 33 +11 BAB +9/+4 Melee Atk +20/+15 +Greator Magic Weapon +22/+17 +Divine Favor +25/+20 +Weapon Focus +26/+21 (Large) Heavy Flail = +26/+21 2d8 + 24 (Large) Heavy Flail, Power Attack (-9/-4) = +17/+17 2d8 + 43 As I read it, if I got a +10 composite longbow, and my bulls strength was a 2 (total), I would be taking a -2 to attack rolls (since I do not meet the +10 str requirment). You also wont get the 1.5x str for two handed either using ranged. Edit: I guess even if I did get a 2 on bulls strength I could still use the +10 Composite Bow -- oops. Also, I appreciate everyones help, regardless of how I "come off!" It's all in fun! :D
Dark_and_Stormy 07-08-04, 12:58 AM	If you become an Elf Cleric, you make your Domains Time and Elf. Time nets you your Improved Inititiave Feat, as well as some very nice spells for Domain Use. Elf Domain gets Point Blank Shot. War Domain gets you Weapon Proficiency In Gods Chosen Weapon, and Weapon focus for same. Your Build for Archery: Ranged Cleric Feats: 1: Improved Iniative 2: Point Blank Shot 3: Precise Shot 4: Rapid Shot 5: Many Shot 6: free 7: free 8: free Domain Mods: God in the Realms: Labelas Enoreth (Time, Elf) "Free" Cleric Feats: Free Improved Initiative Free Point Blank Shot 1: Zen Archery (Use your Wisdom Modifier for Ranged Attacks) 3: Precise Shot 6: Rapid Shot 9: Many Shot 12: free 15: free 18: free You can see that you get your feats one "Feat-Turn earlier than you would, except I confuse matters by adding in Zen Archery - A must have for a ClericArcher. Dex is dump. Don't forget, Cleric "Fighters" are all about Buffs, not out-right feat choices. Persisistant Spell / Divine Metamagic (Persistant) is of course the stuff to be aiming for, and modify feats as required to fit them in... feats less important when you have a fighter's BAB... and Bonuses to everything... buffs are cool. Check out QuickDraw. I love this. Too many westerns as a kid, though.... I also wouldn't go with Many Shot, but your call... If you can shoot for a level of Contemplative, for the War Domain, get Weapon Focus for Free. Divine Health ain't bad for a freebie, either. Co-Incedentally, if you DO want to go Melee'ing about, Dwarves make good clerics - Gold Dwarves esp. Heavy Armour ? Who cares ?!?
Himosan 07-08-04, 01:06 AM	Archery: In 3.0 Grtr Magic Weapon on your bow and arrows will stack. 3.0 Haste also makes Manyshot awesome. (manyshot isn't in the core 3.0 books so I'll assume you somehow get access to it since you mentioned it). Archer is more feat intensive but not so bad if you can get bow prof with War domain (otherwise elf is a popular option). Your melee character looks fine to me, I'd recommend Craft Arms & Armor over wondrous items myself since stat items are so much weaker in 3.0. Quicken Spell: Quicken at 9th allows you to get off Divine Favor as a free action. The feat is not not near as powerful in 3.0 because the party is (or should be) constantly using Haste fx.
Blade2718 07-08-04, 01:07 AM	Original poster specified 3.0 core rules only.
Dark_and_Stormy 07-08-04, 01:12 AM	So he did. Apologies to all - let that be a lesson not to have 15+ pages open all at the same time. Male Multi-tasking can't handle it...
Naja 07-08-04, 01:25 AM	Originally posted by catharz The whole quicken Divine power thing is really shady. If you only get it for one combat, why bother? It just ends up being a waste. [/B[ if the combat you cast it for is going to be a hard one, then it isnīt a waste. I applied Quicken Spell for the purpose of using it in hard combats as a replacement to Persistant Spell (which IMO would be much better, but with 3.0 CORE only?) [B] IMO it is better to stick with the long duration buffs (this being 3.0 that includes Endurance/Strength). And don't just buff yourself. Buff the entire party. Get a Bead of Karma as soon as you can, and go wild! No Problem here. I seconded that. For your War domain weapon, drop the idea of getting a melee weapon and get a Longbow instead. Unless you really hate the idea of archery. For the cost of two 4th level spell slots, you can enchant the bow and ammo for free. As a melee cleric?
yebvas 07-08-04, 01:55 AM	I appologize if I mentioned a non 3.0 Core Feat, the only books I have are 3.5 (PHB, MM, DMG) and it is faster for me to look up stuff in the book than the 3.0 SRD. So sometimes I don't catch the differences (many shot, I guess). I can see how Archery could possibly be a little better at the high levels (since you can fire more arrows than swing a flail w/ same BAB via feats), however, that is far more complicated than I think I want to go. And I think my party would thank me for not rolling twice as much as well. I'm probably going to have the character "switch over" next gaming session (this Sunday), so I am trying to iron out all the details before then. I'm still open to suggestions, except multiclassing, PrCs, and any non core-rule book! (I must agree, it may seem pretty boring, but it's not boring at all!) :D
yebvas 07-08-04, 05:16 PM	I don't understand what / how a bead of karma does / works. From what I ahve expirenced thus far, I can't just go to a magic shop and "buy" anything. Each town has a magic shop- true, but everything was randomly generated at the start of the campain. What kind of person could make it? Never learned item creation feats, well, not sure how they really work anyway. All I know is Crafting feats in this campain give XP, not take it away. (Since your learning a skill, and practicing it, it makes NO SENSE to lose expirence for making something).
xorn king 07-08-04, 06:35 PM	I don't understand what / how a bead of karma does / works. From what I ahve expirenced thus far, I can't just go to a magic shop and "buy" anything. Each town has a magic shop- true, but everything was randomly generated at the start of the campain. Well that problem arises from your Dm. Some Dms do that, some base it on levels what is available in the shops. It increases your caster level by 4 for 10mins. You use this in the morning when you slap on all your day long buffs, now, they are all 4 levels higher than you can cast...woot
yebvas 07-08-04, 06:51 PM	So, for example, if I used a normal lvl 2 bulls strength it only lasts 1 hour a level. But if I prepare it as say a 6th level spell, it will last longer?
sma 07-08-04, 07:12 PM	Yes iit will last 6 hours. A Bead of Karma is carzy good. Lots of spells have their effect and duration based on caster level, which thanks to the wonders of the bead of karma and spells like Death Knell can be wildly different from actual character levels. So getting one prvides a reliable way to boost the primary long duration buffs like Bulls Strength (duration +4h), Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment (+4h +1 Bonus). Also makes them harder to dispel. Later on you can use them to break through high SR or boost the damage of the blaster spells or have fun with holy word. Sma
yebvas 07-08-04, 11:30 PM	Ah, Thanks for the info guys!:cool:
deafbymetal 07-09-04, 12:55 AM	No chance of playing a Dwarf? +2 Con helps with HP, plus you get darkvision, etc. And they get bonuses to fight certain races (Orcs included). Also, if your playing in FR (it was implied somewhere), take the domains War (free weapon focus), and Dwarf (free Great Fortitude). Also, I've found that if you buff the Str. of the strongest melee fighter, and buff your Con., they do more damage while you can take more. As far as weapons, I usually use what is more theme oriented. Dwarves go for axes and maces, humans for swords, elves for bows, etc. I really don't look at the damage column when choosing. An elf with a greataxe just looks silly :D . Remember, most any character is playable, and will live, if you play wisely. Pick daily spells with care, and remember you can change them day by day by circumstance. It's all in good fun, let us all know how you made out.
yebvas 07-09-04, 01:07 AM	Thank you for your input, but I cannot use anything but PHB, DMG, and MM. *Nothing* else. And I didn't choose dwarf for a couple of reasons, I hate how slow they are (in 3.0 heavy armor), and I don't really think it will matter down the road stats (since they will be buffed), but extra feats are always nice. Edit: Grammer Edit: Also, at level 9 (and above), I'm pretty sure I can out-damage a pure fighter who uses a longsword or greatsword.