Another Dwarven Paladin [Archive] - Wizards Community

Another Dwarven Paladin [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jherid
06-17-05, 02:51 AM While looking throught PGtF I happened upon the Hammer of Moradin PRC and found the flavor to my liking (dwarves who chuck big hammers at things? rawk). So I came up with a build but wanted to see what anyone might think to improve on it. (All WotC books allowed except UA, no Dragon Magazine, 32 ptb.)

Race - Dream Dwarf

Stats after racial
Str-14
Dex-6
Con-20
Int-10
Wis-12
Cha-12

Level 1 - Ranger - Endurance
Level 2 - Fighter - Iron Will
Level 3 - Fighter - WF(Warhammer)
Level 4 - Cleric
Level 5 - Cleric
Level 6 - Cleric
Level 7 - Deepwarden
Level 8 - Deepwarden
Level 9 - Paladin
Level 10 - Paladin
Levels 11-20 Hammer of Morradin

Ranger is there for the skill points, fighter is there for bonus feats, cleric to meet the req of casting 2nd level divine spells, deepwarden for the con-ac, I sort of just stuck the pally levels in there not sure what might work better.

One thing I'm pretty undescided on is how I should go for feats, the one's listed are requirements. I'm usually always a spellcaster and not quite as experienced on what works well for melee builds.
Neb Rybel
06-17-05, 02:54 AM I think Hammer of Moradin should be your 9th level, so try to work it in earlier.

Plus you need to actually be able to cast 2nd level divine spells to take the class which requires a Wisdom of like 12.
Jherid
06-17-05, 03:02 AM Plus you need to actually be able to cast 2nd level divine spells to take the class which requires a Wisdom of like 12.

Haha, good point :p
Baneslayer
06-17-05, 04:02 AM This build bugs me but mostly I don't know why, it just seems so strange in bad ways.

Single Ranger level is going to screw you with XP penalties for almost the entire life of your build.

Paladin levels seem tacked on, drop them for more Deepwarden.

Dream Dwarf's favored class is Druid, which you aren't taking.

At what level will you start playing this build? If before you get Deepwarden 2 you basically should count yourself as dead meat on a hook with that 6 Dex.

I think you should consider either dropping Fighter or dropping Dream Dwarf. Go Ranger 3/Druid 3/Deepwarden 2, take TWF as your bonus and OTWF at level 3. Wield a Warhammer in both hands.

With your dex so low, you will need to take Brutal Throw to be able to throw your hammer with any sort of accuracy.

Even with the suggestions, I'm still not feeling good things about this build. Someone else wanna wade in?
Hochi-min trail
06-17-05, 04:56 AM The paladin could be useful, but you don't get much from the ability which makes people usually take these two levels (divine grace, of course), since you only have +1 to charisma.

Why did you pick dream dwarf? I'm not familiar with the race. If it's not that important a simple Dwarf fighter/cleric/deepwarden/hammer of moradin would be much more potent.
ninjarabbit
06-17-05, 09:15 AM I'll politely say that paladins with a cha of 12 aren't a good idea.
rilem
06-17-05, 10:05 AM 1. If those stats point-buy, you need to reallocate — lower your Con and boost Cha. 14/10/16/12/12/14, pre-mod.

2. Take Gold Dwarf instead of Dream Dwarf.

3. The paladin levels are not worth it, as is already noted. They're not TERRIBLE — even +1 to all saves is good, and detect eveil is nice, but I think you can do better.

4. Ranger is also not worth it. (It also triggers XP penalties between Ranger1/Cleric3. You've got access to Races of Stone; take the fighter/cleric substitution levels; their skills will help you access DeepWarden.

5. Take Four levels of Cleric (4th substitution level=Hammer Specialist, +2 melee damage with Hammer, stacks with specialization). Take the Metal Domain (Weapon Focus with any hammer).

6. So: Fighter2/Cleric4/DeepWarden2 — from here you can go Pal2, if you've boosted your Cha in Point No. 1, or take another DeepWarden or Cleric Level and go into HoM.
Jimbo19
06-17-05, 10:37 AM I agree on the cleric 4 racial sub level. But hen you would need ftr 4 as well. If your going to go for one +2 to damage, ,might as well get the other.

I was playing a cleric4/ftr4 and HoM 2 but the campaign fell apart. I liked the build and if you can get a dwarven thrower you are rockin.

Now how do you get metal domian rilem? Moradin does not have it, so I dont see how you can get it using another deity, then get into HoM.

Now I did not try to get 2 levels of deepwarden, that would be sweet, but would cost feats and a ton of skills, and also delays you getting into HoM.

HoM doesnt start getting good till its 3rd level, and all the bane specials seem to come too late to do any good at all. I mean being able to enchant your hammer as a goblinbane weapon, for rounds equal to your charisma mod once per day, and not getting that until at the least char lvl 10?? Ummm no.
neilthrun
06-17-05, 10:48 AM Try to get some pious templar levels in too. And i agree with at least 4 cleric levels. Dont for get Divine Power.
rilem
06-17-05, 10:58 AM Divine Power would require at least 7 Cleric levels, and isn't really that necessary in a high-BAB build like this one. A PC going Cleric4/Fighter2/Pal2/Templar3/HammerofMoradin9 will have a BAB of +19 anyway.
Baneslayer
06-17-05, 01:28 PM Doing Dex 6/Con 20 forces him into Deepwarden, but that's part of the torture of this build - very railroady away from the main point, Hammer of Moradin.

What I really want to do with this idea, though, is add TWF/OTWF+Master Thrower 1 - Double Throw. Throw TWO Warhammers and get full STR on Each. But that runs into either Ranger levels or MAD issues.
rilem
06-17-05, 01:39 PM Now how do you get metal domian rilem? Moradin does not have it, so I dont see how you can get it using another deity, then get into HoM.

You make a mistake, that's how. :) I always forget that Moradin doesn't get the metal domain, because he certainly should, IMO.

Regarding Fighter4 -- Pious Templar gets Specialization for free; that's why I put it in.

As to twin warhammers — another option is CW Samurai, tweaking it to allow two hammers instead of two swords.
Baneslayer
06-17-05, 02:33 PM CW Samurai gives Two as One with Katana and Wakizashi aka Bastard and Short Swords. You can't even use OTWF with it because of how specific it is about using Katana and Wakizashi to get TWF. It'd be a major modification to turn that into twin Warhammers, though if you give your DM cookies he may do it for you.
rilem
06-17-05, 02:59 PM The Samurai needs all the rule zeroes it can get to make it workable. As is it's one of the least flexible classes in a game that is supposed to encourage creativity and flexibility.

It's not that big a modification, I think. You're sacrificing a feat (EWP-Bastard Sword becomes worthless with this tweak, making Sam1 a dead level) in exchange for an extra attack with a warhammer. It might be slightly more powerful (it makes W. Focus more useful, for example) but it doesn't sound unbalancing.

Note that changing it to Warhammer/LightHammer would be substantially worse than bastard/short swords, because you still waste the EWP and Warhammer is weaker than bastard sword.
Jimbo19
06-17-05, 04:11 PM You make a mistake, that's how. :) I always forget that Moradin doesn't get the metal domain, because he certainly should, IMO.

Regarding Fighter4 -- Pious Templar gets Specialization for free; that's why I put it in.

As to twin warhammers — another option is CW Samurai, tweaking it to allow two hammers instead of two swords.

Agreed, would make it much simpler wouldnt it?
Atherlos
06-17-05, 04:24 PM I spent some time making a similar build earlier, and found it hard to resist Battlesmith 1-2 levels for +wis to damage. It requires endurance and 10 ranks of craft weaponsmithing (or armorsmithing). I eventually dropped deepwarden because we ruled that con bonus to ac couldn't exceed max dex bonus. Pious templar 3 was dropped and instead I chose fighter 4 to be able to go epic hammer at 21.

Final build was fig4 / cle 4 (racial sub level) / battlesmith 2 / Hammer 10.
With an ioun stone and practiced spellcaster you can make items at 15th caster level. Practical to make your own stuff when you plan to throw 5 hammers per round. The build works fairly well from the beginning, and all the damage bonuses are reached at level 12 as far as I recall.

Of course deepwarden and pious templar gives better fort/will saves, but those saves will be very high anyway, I haven't missed any at level 8.
Failing a reflex save killed me once though.

Have fun,

Atherlos
Baneslayer
06-17-05, 05:22 PM The Samurai needs all the rule zeroes it can get to make it workable. As is it's one of the least flexible classes in a game that is supposed to encourage creativity and flexibility.

It's not that big a modification, I think. You're sacrificing a feat (EWP-Bastard Sword becomes worthless with this tweak, making Sam1 a dead level) in exchange for an extra attack with a warhammer. It might be slightly more powerful (it makes W. Focus more useful, for example) but it doesn't sound unbalancing.

Note that changing it to Warhammer/LightHammer would be substantially worse than bastard/short swords, because you still waste the EWP and Warhammer is weaker than bastard sword.

Just make sure your DM likes the cookies first.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jherid 06-17-05, 02:51 AM	While looking throught PGtF I happened upon the Hammer of Moradin PRC and found the flavor to my liking (dwarves who chuck big hammers at things? rawk). So I came up with a build but wanted to see what anyone might think to improve on it. (All WotC books allowed except UA, no Dragon Magazine, 32 ptb.) Race - Dream Dwarf Stats after racial Str-14 Dex-6 Con-20 Int-10 Wis-12 Cha-12 Level 1 - Ranger - Endurance Level 2 - Fighter - Iron Will Level 3 - Fighter - WF(Warhammer) Level 4 - Cleric Level 5 - Cleric Level 6 - Cleric Level 7 - Deepwarden Level 8 - Deepwarden Level 9 - Paladin Level 10 - Paladin Levels 11-20 Hammer of Morradin Ranger is there for the skill points, fighter is there for bonus feats, cleric to meet the req of casting 2nd level divine spells, deepwarden for the con-ac, I sort of just stuck the pally levels in there not sure what might work better. One thing I'm pretty undescided on is how I should go for feats, the one's listed are requirements. I'm usually always a spellcaster and not quite as experienced on what works well for melee builds.
Neb Rybel 06-17-05, 02:54 AM	I think Hammer of Moradin should be your 9th level, so try to work it in earlier. Plus you need to actually be able to cast 2nd level divine spells to take the class which requires a Wisdom of like 12.
Jherid 06-17-05, 03:02 AM	Plus you need to actually be able to cast 2nd level divine spells to take the class which requires a Wisdom of like 12. Haha, good point :p
Baneslayer 06-17-05, 04:02 AM	This build bugs me but mostly I don't know why, it just seems so strange in bad ways. Single Ranger level is going to screw you with XP penalties for almost the entire life of your build. Paladin levels seem tacked on, drop them for more Deepwarden. Dream Dwarf's favored class is Druid, which you aren't taking. At what level will you start playing this build? If before you get Deepwarden 2 you basically should count yourself as dead meat on a hook with that 6 Dex. I think you should consider either dropping Fighter or dropping Dream Dwarf. Go Ranger 3/Druid 3/Deepwarden 2, take TWF as your bonus and OTWF at level 3. Wield a Warhammer in both hands. With your dex so low, you will need to take Brutal Throw to be able to throw your hammer with any sort of accuracy. Even with the suggestions, I'm still not feeling good things about this build. Someone else wanna wade in?
Hochi-min trail 06-17-05, 04:56 AM	The paladin could be useful, but you don't get much from the ability which makes people usually take these two levels (divine grace, of course), since you only have +1 to charisma. Why did you pick dream dwarf? I'm not familiar with the race. If it's not that important a simple Dwarf fighter/cleric/deepwarden/hammer of moradin would be much more potent.
ninjarabbit 06-17-05, 09:15 AM	I'll politely say that paladins with a cha of 12 aren't a good idea.
rilem 06-17-05, 10:05 AM	1. If those stats point-buy, you need to reallocate — lower your Con and boost Cha. 14/10/16/12/12/14, pre-mod. 2. Take Gold Dwarf instead of Dream Dwarf. 3. The paladin levels are not worth it, as is already noted. They're not TERRIBLE — even +1 to all saves is good, and detect eveil is nice, but I think you can do better. 4. Ranger is also not worth it. (It also triggers XP penalties between Ranger1/Cleric3. You've got access to Races of Stone; take the fighter/cleric substitution levels; their skills will help you access DeepWarden. 5. Take Four levels of Cleric (4th substitution level=Hammer Specialist, +2 melee damage with Hammer, stacks with specialization). Take the Metal Domain (Weapon Focus with any hammer). 6. So: Fighter2/Cleric4/DeepWarden2 — from here you can go Pal2, if you've boosted your Cha in Point No. 1, or take another DeepWarden or Cleric Level and go into HoM.
Jimbo19 06-17-05, 10:37 AM	I agree on the cleric 4 racial sub level. But hen you would need ftr 4 as well. If your going to go for one +2 to damage, ,might as well get the other. I was playing a cleric4/ftr4 and HoM 2 but the campaign fell apart. I liked the build and if you can get a dwarven thrower you are rockin. Now how do you get metal domian rilem? Moradin does not have it, so I dont see how you can get it using another deity, then get into HoM. Now I did not try to get 2 levels of deepwarden, that would be sweet, but would cost feats and a ton of skills, and also delays you getting into HoM. HoM doesnt start getting good till its 3rd level, and all the bane specials seem to come too late to do any good at all. I mean being able to enchant your hammer as a goblinbane weapon, for rounds equal to your charisma mod once per day, and not getting that until at the least char lvl 10?? Ummm no.
neilthrun 06-17-05, 10:48 AM	Try to get some pious templar levels in too. And i agree with at least 4 cleric levels. Dont for get Divine Power.
rilem 06-17-05, 10:58 AM	Divine Power would require at least 7 Cleric levels, and isn't really that necessary in a high-BAB build like this one. A PC going Cleric4/Fighter2/Pal2/Templar3/HammerofMoradin9 will have a BAB of +19 anyway.
Baneslayer 06-17-05, 01:28 PM	Doing Dex 6/Con 20 forces him into Deepwarden, but that's part of the torture of this build - very railroady away from the main point, Hammer of Moradin. What I really want to do with this idea, though, is add TWF/OTWF+Master Thrower 1 - Double Throw. Throw TWO Warhammers and get full STR on Each. But that runs into either Ranger levels or MAD issues.
rilem 06-17-05, 01:39 PM	Now how do you get metal domian rilem? Moradin does not have it, so I dont see how you can get it using another deity, then get into HoM. You make a mistake, that's how. :) I always forget that Moradin doesn't get the metal domain, because he certainly should, IMO. Regarding Fighter4 -- Pious Templar gets Specialization for free; that's why I put it in. As to twin warhammers — another option is CW Samurai, tweaking it to allow two hammers instead of two swords.
Baneslayer 06-17-05, 02:33 PM	CW Samurai gives Two as One with Katana and Wakizashi aka Bastard and Short Swords. You can't even use OTWF with it because of how specific it is about using Katana and Wakizashi to get TWF. It'd be a major modification to turn that into twin Warhammers, though if you give your DM cookies he may do it for you.
rilem 06-17-05, 02:59 PM	The Samurai needs all the rule zeroes it can get to make it workable. As is it's one of the least flexible classes in a game that is supposed to encourage creativity and flexibility. It's not that big a modification, I think. You're sacrificing a feat (EWP-Bastard Sword becomes worthless with this tweak, making Sam1 a dead level) in exchange for an extra attack with a warhammer. It might be slightly more powerful (it makes W. Focus more useful, for example) but it doesn't sound unbalancing. Note that changing it to Warhammer/LightHammer would be substantially worse than bastard/short swords, because you still waste the EWP and Warhammer is weaker than bastard sword.
Jimbo19 06-17-05, 04:11 PM	You make a mistake, that's how. :) I always forget that Moradin doesn't get the metal domain, because he certainly should, IMO. Regarding Fighter4 -- Pious Templar gets Specialization for free; that's why I put it in. As to twin warhammers — another option is CW Samurai, tweaking it to allow two hammers instead of two swords. Agreed, would make it much simpler wouldnt it?
Atherlos 06-17-05, 04:24 PM	I spent some time making a similar build earlier, and found it hard to resist Battlesmith 1-2 levels for +wis to damage. It requires endurance and 10 ranks of craft weaponsmithing (or armorsmithing). I eventually dropped deepwarden because we ruled that con bonus to ac couldn't exceed max dex bonus. Pious templar 3 was dropped and instead I chose fighter 4 to be able to go epic hammer at 21. Final build was fig4 / cle 4 (racial sub level) / battlesmith 2 / Hammer 10. With an ioun stone and practiced spellcaster you can make items at 15th caster level. Practical to make your own stuff when you plan to throw 5 hammers per round. The build works fairly well from the beginning, and all the damage bonuses are reached at level 12 as far as I recall. Of course deepwarden and pious templar gives better fort/will saves, but those saves will be very high anyway, I haven't missed any at level 8. Failing a reflex save killed me once though. Have fun, Atherlos
Baneslayer 06-17-05, 05:22 PM	The Samurai needs all the rule zeroes it can get to make it workable. As is it's one of the least flexible classes in a game that is supposed to encourage creativity and flexibility. It's not that big a modification, I think. You're sacrificing a feat (EWP-Bastard Sword becomes worthless with this tweak, making Sam1 a dead level) in exchange for an extra attack with a warhammer. It might be slightly more powerful (it makes W. Focus more useful, for example) but it doesn't sound unbalancing. Note that changing it to Warhammer/LightHammer would be substantially worse than bastard/short swords, because you still waste the EWP and Warhammer is weaker than bastard sword. Just make sure your DM likes the cookies first.