Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cheezus 01-14-04, 04:33 AM	I was just trying to build my FR gnomish bard yesterday when I purely by accident discovered this forum. Even though I'm no stranger to min/maxing myself, I was absolutely overwhelmed by the possibilities posted in these threads for just about everything. I've practically been searching for this place for the last 6 years. It nearly brought me to tears. ;) I've been reading in this forum for the last, well 4 hours (?!?) but I'm still a bit confused, and wondering if anyone could help me out here- The character I'm building is a CN gnome bard in the FR setting. However, what I'm trying to build is a bit different than the builds I've seen on the 'Bard Handbook'. Instead of falling under the categories of ranged combatant, melee combatant, spellcaster and rogue surrogate (sp?) my character is focused on maximising his ability in social interaction. Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, possibly intimidate and gather information as important skills. Furthermore, I'd like him to have as much enchantment and divination abilities (as these can also assist social abilties) possibly making him a sub-spellcasting type bard. I havent given much thought to PrC's yet, and I was hoping for some help with that. Btw my character has 18 Charisma and 16 Int.
Boondoggle 01-14-04, 05:41 AM	Mmm, my favorite type of bard. Unfortunately (for you, at least), I don't own FR (or like it terribly much), so I can't help you with FR specific PrCs. For this guy, one level of Mindbender (Tome & Blood) is a must. A one level dip into Marshal (MiniHB) would get you Skill Focus (Diplomacy) & double your cha bonus to charisma checks & skills (with Motivate Charisma), but would cost a level of spell-casting & music. Virtuoso is a very good PrC for you, although it does need some updating for 3.5 (skills/level, DC of mindbending melody should be 10 + PrC level + cha mod). If Dragon magazine material is available, the worldspeaker PrC in Dragon 311 would be a good option, though it is slightly overpowered in terms of BAB & saves. These suggestions should be a good place to start. Try making your own build, as rough or refined and post it.
Mucknuggle 01-14-04, 07:18 AM	Sorry that I don't have much time to help, but I recommend that you check out the 3.5 Bard Thread (linked in my sig) as I'm sure that there are a number of builds there that will meet your needs. It would help to know what your other stats are. Would you mind posting em? Having said that, I've got a build in mind for you. Bard 5/ Virtuoso 10/ Spell Singer 5 I was also a big fan of Bard 5/ Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Spellsinger 1/ Virtuoso 10, although I think that you need to be human in order to pull that one off. Spellsinger gives you access to just about every enchantment spell while still advancing your bardic music and bardic spellcasting (and I think it's 4 skill pts/lvl), virtuoso does the same and also gives you new songs to use. The levels of Mage of the Arcane Order are to give you access to spell pool with spells level 6 and lower (ie you will now be able to cast any and all spells on the sorcerer/wizard list in addition to your Bard spells).
Cheezus 01-14-04, 07:38 AM	Sure Str 8 Dex 15 Con 10 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 18 Boondoggle, I was also thinking mindbender and virtuoso, but minbender has a limited amount of skill points and may be a hindrance in that respect (enough skill points for the important skills, but no gather information). ill probably take the 1st lvl though since the skill boost is very good. Sadly, no MiniHB and Dragon magazine in my possesion currently, although I can try to obtain these from my friend. Thnx a bunch
Boondoggle 01-14-04, 06:44 PM	I really wouldn't recomend more than one level of mindbender for this character, or anyone for that matter. However, one level nets telepathy and a skill boost unobtainable any other way. One other suggestion: If you like to use disguises often, a level dip (or two) in Spymaster (Song & Silence) provide some useful benefits.
Snow Savant 01-14-04, 08:16 PM	Cheezus, After reviewing your criteria: 1. Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Intimidate & G. Information skills. 2. Enchantment and Divination spell enhancements. 3. CN Gnome Bard in the FR setting 4. 18 CHA & 16 INT. .... here is my suggestion. Do not break from spellcaster progression. Higher level Bard spells are essential to your success at enabling your social skill-monkey prowess to really shine. Your pernultimate objectie is to obtain the Improvisation spell (5th level Bard Spell). Once you get Improvisation running, your social skill checks will fly through the roof. That being said, you also have to take something into consideration when performing Bluff, Diplomacy, & Gather Information skill checks. You are often within arms reach of someone when "being social". Which means if things go awry, you are most likely going to engage in melee, grapple checks, etc. If you are trying to be "social" from range, enemies often think you are nuts, yelling at them to be "diplomatic" from 15' away. So what I am saying here is, BAB makes a difference for a Bard. So multi-classing into Spellsinger and Virtuoso can hit your Bard for a few points of BAB sometimes .... and you really need all you can get. And both PrC's also make you take a hit for skill ranks. And skill ranks are essential for your build. So ..... my final solution for you entails just 2 dips, then straight Bard. Bard17 / Divine Oracle2 / Mindbender1 *** Take those 3 levels when and where you wish once you meet the pre-req.'s. *** Divine Oracle gets you those 6 extra Divination spells you talked about wanting earlier, freeing you up to take more Enchantment spells with your Bard slots. You also get Evasion to match up with your impressively high REFL save. Mindbender gets you a +6 competence bonus to 1 of 4 skills that you dig the most - Bluff, Diplo., Intimidate, or S. Motive. And the 100' Telepathy communications ability. Those 3 levels will allow you to still max out your key skills with your Bard ranks while still giving you 17 levels of Bard Song & Bard Lore. Bard Lore is important for your type of character, as it is often a better information source than what you can get via Gather Information. And sadly, Spellsinger and Virtuoso do *not* give you levels of Bard Lore. Use your feats for things like Spell Focus & GSF: Enchantment. Spell Penetration & Greater Spell Penetration if you wish as well. A Skill Focus feat for Bluff or Diplomacy is not out of the question either. Although I tend to like to use my feats for combat related enhancements. Finally, once you get your high level spells (5th or 6th), and you feel like being .... devilish :devil: Change alignments to become evil and take a level of Disciple of Baalzebul from the BoVD. Just 1 level. It gives you the Tongue of the Devil class ability which lets you add your CHA *and* INT modifiers (which should be super-high by then) to your Bluff checks. Hope this helps. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Cheezus 01-15-04, 01:00 PM	helped a lot! thnx snow :D