Post/Author/DateTime	Post
deathwishjoe 12-21-05, 03:09 AM	okay this build while invulnerable has two assumptions. one that LoP dirty trick #1 (found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=540563) ) works. and two that if an ability isnt listed as a Su or SP (or EX for that matter) it can't be stopped by an antimagic field or MDJ. instead of going into beholder mage PrC were going for a far more broken class. illithid savant (found in savage species). this allows us to gain entrance into illithid savant at ECL 7. the requirements for this class are to be an illithid which is covered by LoPs dirty trick. I need to eat a brain of a creature of at least CR 9. it doesnt say that I have to be an illithid though when I do this. "I ate his brain with some fava beans and a nice chianti" I also need 10 ranks in a knowledge skill. for this build to work you need at least 7 levels of illithid savant to pull it off although ten leves means getting the new abilities faster. the build to level 20 is as follows. human artificer 10 illithid savant 10 feats H extend spell 1 persistent spell 3 improved unarmed strike 6 craft construct 9 improved grapple 12 tomb tainted soul 15 tomb born vitality 18 xxxxxxxxxxx remember at level 7 to make a scroll of PaO to change you into an illithid. if your real lucky you be able to change into one of those really big illithids with the extra long tentacles. by level 14 (illithid savant 7) your going to want to craft scrolls of body outside of body. you then use the scroll and eat your own doubles brain. then use your ability to gain a class ability to gain a 7th level illithid savants ability to gain 2 class abilities. then use another one of those gain class abilities to gain any of your own class abilities again. you still have the ability to eat another of your doubles brains and repeat the loop all over again untill your satisfied with the abilities your gaining from eating enemies (or friends) brains. here are some creatures/classes you'll want to eat quick so you can become invulnerable. Wartroll: regeneration 9 (vulnerability to acid) Crystalline Troll: immunity to acid Leachwalker: immunities (nonlethal and ability drain/damage), vermin traits (mind effects) a Palemaster 10: tough as bone (disease, stunning), deathless mastery ( poision, sleep effects, paralysis, death effects, critical hits, energy drain) Air Genasai: air resistance (no need to breath) and finally I gain the ability to go with out food indeffinatly with tomb born vitality. One interesting side note is that once the abilities are gained someone can dispell the PoO and I still keep them as the PrC (that I'd no longer qualifiy for) just gives me the ability to gain new abilities from eating brains and what not. as such I keep all currently gained abilities forever! the really cool thing about this build is that all of its immunities work in a dead magic zone and cant be dispelled by MDJ. if you can find a way to kill this guy w/o using manipulate form to strip him of his abilities I'll be impressed. there is a another version of this build that doesnt use artificer or body outside body. it goes like this. warforged fighter 5 warforged juggernaut 5 wizard 1 illithid savant 9 gain the acid immunity and regeneration and your class abilities will cover the rest.
X-Codes 12-21-05, 03:23 AM	No good. AFAIK gaining immunity to subdual damage causes regeneration to revert to fast healing. Now, if you can ignore the Unconcious condition (What happens when subdual damage >/= current HP) then you have something definately working... thing is I think it's a feat somewhere.
LordofProcrastination 12-21-05, 03:27 AM	Good effort, deathwishjoe. However, you forget the primary limitation of the Illithid Savant -- it is limited in the number of special attacks and special qualities that it can obtain. Specifically, by Illithid Savant level 8, your character would have access to one special attack or special quality (along with four feats, two class features, and four skills). Thus, the build as-is cannot obtain its listed set of special qualities. In order to get into Illithid Savant earlier and thus access a wider range of abilities, you would probably have to rely on Divine Minion to speed up the access process. Still, going for Illithid Savant is a good application of the essential features of Dirty Trick #1 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=540563). With early access and refined ability selection, this could be a powerful build indeed.
deathwishjoe 12-21-05, 03:28 AM	you know I hear this but as of yet NO ONE has pointed me to the ruling where it says that. and I've asked alot. so far the only thing Ive seen is that no creature can have regeneration that doesnt have a CON score and I have one. if you've got a link or a page reference Id be happy to see it!!! as to what LoP was saying the way I read it (and what makes it completely broken in my mind) is that he gains a number of abilities each time he eats a new brain. and the class features just limits what he can gain from one brain at a time.
X-Codes 12-21-05, 03:32 AM	you know I hear this but as of yet NO ONE has pointed me to the ruling where it says that. and I've asked alot. so far the only thing Ive seen is that no creature can have regeneration that doesnt have a CON score and I have one. if you've got a link or a page reference Id be happy to see it!!! I've only heard it second hand, and I've heard it both ways.
deathwishjoe 12-21-05, 03:35 AM	see my guess is that its a misinterpretation of the fact that most ways of obtaining nonlethal immunity involve loosing a con score thus invalidating the regeneration ability. well ill be away getting food for a few bbl
LordofProcrastination 12-21-05, 03:45 AM	Please look at the exact text of the "Acquire Special Attack or Special Quality" class feature for the Illithid Savant, on page 78 of Savage Species. At 5th level, the illithid savant permanently gains one special attack or special quality of a consumed brain's owner. ... At 9th level the illithid savant can gain another special attack or special quality from a consumed brain. The fact that the class feature speaks entirely in the definitive singular is pretty clear. In D&D, where grammar counts for rule-interpretation, "a" is not the same thing as "any." Furthermore, consider the context of the latter sentence, which uses "another," indicating a single iteration of special ability gain. The class is powerful enough as it is with its outrageous combination-versatility. Non-grammatical interpretations aren't necessary to make this combo noteworthy.
X-Codes 12-21-05, 03:54 AM	Ahh... the class makes sense to me now... So it ISN'T the high-ECL version of Pun-Pun...
deathwishjoe 12-21-05, 04:27 AM	At 5th level, the illithid savant permanently gains one special attack or special quality of a consumed brain's owner. I am now going to use much of the same relevant sentance structure to describe something that is a well known repeatable ability. you tell me if the sentance structure is off. At 5th level Pun-Pun can have his familiar use manipulate form on him so he perminantly gains one special attack or special quality of a legal creature in the campaign setting. it seems that the singular "one" is a reference to how many abilities can be gained by eating an individual brain and the "a" is reffering to the fact that mechanically you can only eat one brain at a time (or else you'll end up a fat illithid). I admit that the wording on this PrC is very vague in how it works in this matter. also if the "a" werent singluar it would require you to eat several brains to gain the one class ability. I guess what Im tryng to say is that while "a" isnt the same as "any" it doesnt prohibit multiple uses of said ability. as "a single previously" would prohibit the further use of the ability. well I'm getting tired and I'm still sick. my brains coming out of my ears and my lungs up through my mouth. I'm going to sleep and Ill continue this discussion tomorrow.
LordofProcrastination 12-21-05, 04:38 AM	Issue confusion. The Pun-Pun manipulate form combination is in no way precedence for deathwishjoe's interpretation. Why? Again, we have to go back to the original text. The manipulate form ability is not a one-shot class feature. Manipulate Form (Su): At will, a surrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One... Note the use of "at will" and "any." Significant difference. Not relevant to this rules-discussion. Likewise, sleep places my role in this discussion on hold for now. A line-by line dissection of the ability, as well as a line-by-line refutation of the premises above should resolve the matter.
Zathyr 12-21-05, 04:40 AM	At 5th level Pun-Pun can have his familiar use manipulate form on him so he perminantly gains one special attack or special quality of a legal creature in the campaign setting. The way this reads, it is not repeatable. The fact that I know it to be wrong doesn't change the way I read the sentence, and I'm pretty objective - especially with semantics.
Lokiyn 12-21-05, 01:16 PM	Thats why you hit level 9 in the class and procede to snack on the brain of another illithid savant. (body outside body anyone ;) Hah Ha! LoP dirty trick #3)
deathwishjoe 12-21-05, 05:50 PM	*blinks at Lokiyn a few times* ... god damn, that was brilliant. and here I am with a way to get invulnerability within the listed limitations by LoP because I hate these little word games on what some peice of text actually means. BTW as Im stealing class features I can get away with it with illithid savant level 7. it'll pay for itself and get me somehing extra. well just becuase I put work into it here it is. warforged fighter 5/wizard 1/warforged juggernaut 5/illithid savant 9 we then steal the regeneration from a wartroll and the acid immunity from a crystalin troll. then we dispell the PaO and go back to being a warforged. Ill edit the OP to reflect lokiyns devious use of another of LoPs dirty tricks later when I have more time.
J-A-R-N-O 12-21-05, 06:13 PM	There is still the fact that, as far as I know, you loose regeneration if you are immune to nonlethal damage. Or that's what most people say, I don't know where this rule can be found. I should probably try to dig around for it, and try to confirm if it's true or not. But there might be somewhere something that makes you ignore unconciousness. I should probably try to dig that out too. X-Codes mentioned there is a feat for it, it might be something from Dragon, I think. I remember there being talk about it a long time ago.
deathwishjoe 12-22-05, 03:53 AM	facts? all I see is hearsay. "I heard from somewhere that you loose regeneration if you no longer take subdual damage" these statements do not qualify as RAW. I need RAW to work with (and around). so untill I get a link it doesnt count.
J-A-R-N-O 12-22-05, 04:18 AM	Yea, I know what you mean. I tried to look around at the erratas and FAQs and all that, but couldn't find anything. Hmm, maybe it is just hearsay. It might be covered in some article or ask the creators about rules thingie. But your right, lets just assume that it's just bogus until someone can give us a link.
Seeker of Undeath 12-22-05, 04:31 AM	In all truth...is it terribly important to gain immunity to subdual damage? Isn't there something akin to Die Hard that'd let you keep going once subdual damage >= current HP? Better yet why not try to get regeneration and fast healing? I don't recall those two abilities having any negative interaction. And IIRC when you regain HP you heal a like amount of subdual damage. I would think that'd mean bouts of unconsciousness would remain short-lived. I don't plan to debate whether immunity to subdual damage ruins regeneration beyond offering this one thought: If regeneration converts most/all lethal damage to subdual damage, but you're incapable of taking subdual damage, how can there be any conversion? Immediately you're saying that your body is incapable of such a transferal. Giving a creature fast healing in place of regeneration in such a case sounds like generosity more than it is anything. I would instead change the ability to regeneration zero (the amount of subdual damage you are capable of taking)--if I even left it on the creature's sheet.
deathwishjoe 12-22-05, 04:56 AM	In all truth...is it terribly important to gain immunity to subdual damage? Isn't there something akin to Die Hard that'd let you keep going once subdual damage >= current HP? I think it is important. Id feel all vulnerable lying therewhile they add to my total nonlethal damage. what if they took a marker and drew on my face and then took pictures? the character then might die of shame! and I cant have that. I havnt noticed a feat like that if you find one Ill be more then happy to use it though. gets tiresome asking people where they heard the ruling about regeneration and subdual immunity not stacking. Better yet why not try to get regeneration and fast healing? I dont see how thats better but go eat a hydras brain if itll make you feel better. fast healing 22 is pretty sweet just not compared to invulnerability. If regeneration converts most/all lethal damage to subdual damage, but you're incapable of taking subdual damage, how can there be any conversion? Immediately you're saying that your body is incapable of such a transferal. if there was a spell that converted all elemental damage to fire before it hit you (there might be but Im too lazy to look) and you have say 10 levels in elemental savant what would happen if someone cast acid orb at you. the elemental transfering spell would change the damage to fire and I would take none of it. I feel this is a similar comparision although if written by someone in charge of making rules I would accept your explanation as a decent reason why it (regeneration subdual mixing) wouldn't work.
tsuyoshikentsu 12-22-05, 04:57 AM	Thats why you hit level 9 in the class and procede to snack on the brain of another illithid savant. (body outside body anyone ;) Hah Ha! LoP dirty trick #3) Now hold on a second. You're telling me that the way to gain infinite special abilities without being a kobold is to clone myself... ..And eat copies of my OWN BRAIN?! Are we all on CRACK?!?! (Probably. But who cares.)
deathwishjoe 12-22-05, 04:59 AM	remember TK if you want a special ability you need to eat your own brain and something or somone who has the ability you want. this can get fairly hard when you try and find some of the harder to locate ones.
J-A-R-N-O 12-22-05, 05:09 AM	It's much easier eating the brain of your copy than eating the brain of some another Illithid savant, as it would be much easier to copy yourself than find another IS. After a while, there might not be any Illithid savants to eat brains from. So it's just easier to "gnaw yourself" than hunt more brain eaters to eat brains from.
Lokiyn 12-22-05, 01:29 PM	Well the trick is to make sure that your dinner has the same "Eat brains" ability you have, and make sure it has it so that if can be used at least twice. So you have Brain munch A which is any special ability, and empty slot B which has nothing. You eat the brain of whatever and again another use of the slot A and another slot B to place another brain in. Of course that brings up the question. "if you eat the brain of an illithid savant and he has already used his brain munching ability do i gain another use of the brainmunching or do i gain whatever the illithid has brainmunched." And.... "if i have multiple "eat brain" special abilities from eating an illithid brain. And i level up to a point in illithid savant where my eat brain class ability gains another use do all of my "eat brain" special abilities gain more uses as well?"
deathwishjoe 12-22-05, 05:19 PM	if you eat the brain of an illithid savant and he has already used his brain munching ability do i gain another use of the brainmunching or do i gain whatever the illithid has brainmunched. a class ability is a class ability. so unless I want the class ability that the illithid munched I can have the illithid savants class ability to gain more class abilities. "if i have multiple "eat brain" special abilities from eating an illithid brain. And i level up to a point in illithid savant where my eat brain class ability gains another use do all of my "eat brain" special abilities gain more uses as well?" I would say no under the same mechanics that govern spellcasting progression in PrCs and sneak attack progression. unless otherwise stated the gain is linear and not exponential. you dont add 1d6 to all your sneak attack classes and you dont get to add +1 spell casting to all your classes ether.
FromTheShadows 12-22-05, 06:05 PM	Leachwalker: immunities (nonlethal and ability drain/damage), vermin traits (mind effects) Leechwalker, eh? Does a swarm of leeches even have a brain? Methinks this doesn't work. While on the topic of invulnerability, you might want to look at a few 'Plan B' abilites, just in case something comes along that can still breach your defenses. The Touch of the Divine abilites from the Marruspawn Abomination might work for this, as it gives maximum hit points for every Hit Die you have. Eat the brain of a Curst, an undead from LEoF, to grab the ability to come back even if you do die. Find a flesh golem and chow down to get magic immunity.
deathwishjoe 12-22-05, 06:16 PM	leachwalker isnt classified as a swarm. they have what appears to be leeches for skin and have essentially slimy tenticles with mouths all over there skin. as it is classified as a vermin and isnt immune to critical hits it must have a discernable anatomy and therefore has a brain. this has been the logic I used when choosing any of the creatures. if it was immune to critical hits I assumed it might not have a brain. and as far as plan B abilities there are far too many to mention. from spell casting to attribute bonses gained from class levels. but such things are a bit too broad for the spectrum of this topic.
Grim_Revenant 01-03-06, 06:01 AM	Flesh Golems have brains. Could you conceivably kill one, devour its brain and gain its Magic Immunity ability?
deathwishjoe 01-03-06, 06:46 AM	well if I ate a flesh golems brain (formaldehyde eeewwww!) there are two outcomes. one is that I gain the original owner of the brains abilities and the other is that I gain the flesh golems abilities. as its not used by the flesh golem as a brain it would probably be the former.
Grim_Revenant 01-03-06, 06:55 AM	Hrrm... well, the brain is an essential part of a flesh golem - it's listed as a specifically required component - so it must be using it in some way, shape or form.Construction The pieces of a flesh golem must come from normal human corpses that have not decayed significantly. Assembly requires a minimum of six different bodies—one for each limb, the torso (including head), and the brain. In some cases, more bodies may be necessary. Special unguents and bindings worth 500 gp are also required. Note that creating a flesh golem requires casting a spell with the evil descriptor. Somebody's borrowing my SS at the moment, so I can't check it myself, but what's the specific wording on the relevant Illithid Savant ability?
morbid_freak 01-03-06, 07:33 AM	I'm not sure about the acquire special quality/attack feature of the savant, i mean you can't obtain a special that relies on a physical feature, but most specials require a physical, when it comes down to it, even things like regeneration would require such a thing.
Inkling 01-20-06, 08:55 PM	If polymorph any object truly changes you into an illithid with access to all Prc's, etc. then wouldnt your level progressions be off? You'd become an 8 HD illithid with an LA of +7, so you'd be a 15th level base character. So if the DM let you keep your 10 levels of Artificer, you'd be a 25th level epic character. Add 10 levels of illithid savant and you'd be 35th level. Still an impressive build, but not unusual for a demigod.
deathwishjoe 01-20-06, 09:34 PM	If polymorph any object truly changes you into an illithid with access to all Prc's, etc. then wouldnt your level progressions be off? this posses an interesting problem. with level progression off gaining a new level becomes very difficult. fortunatly we can use PaO to change into an illithid when we wanna eat brains and when we wanna gain a level in the PrC. otherwise we stay human (or whatever your original race was). so yes while in illithid form our power level is very high we dont (and it actually becomes problematic) need to stay in illithid form.
Maat_Mons 01-21-06, 02:52 AM	If regeneration converts most/all lethal damage to subdual damage, but you're incapable of taking subdual damage, how can there be any conversion? Regeneration is not predicated on conversion. If you have regeneration, you treat some forms of damage as nonlethal damage. If you have immunity to nonlethal damage, the way you treat nonlethal is that you don't take it. I can't see any logical interpretation that would cause your regeneration to stop working.
BarbeChenue 01-21-06, 04:08 AM	I have never seen *any* ruling on nonlethal immunity preventing regeneration and giving you fast healing instead, and I've never seen any ruling either that having regeneration without a vulnerability in it was problematic. And I've read a lot about monster abilities.
Maat_Mons 01-25-06, 11:47 PM	If polymorph any object truly changes you into an illithid with access to all Prc's, etc. then wouldnt your level progressions be off? You'd become an 8 HD illithid with an LA of +7, so you'd be a 15th level base character. If, as you suggest, polymorph any object gives you the level adjustment of the creature you become, wouldn't it be possible for a high level adjustment character to turn into a human before taking a new level and then back again afterward? You could then advance a level for a significantly reduced XP cost. Given that monster classes have no prerequisites, you could advance in one even while another race if you already had levels in it. Let's use the Ghaele from Savage Species as an example. Suppose you were 9th level in the monster class with 45,000 XP. Now you use polymorph any object to become a human and suddenly you are ECL 7 with enough XP to be 10th level. So take 3 more levels in the monster class and use polymorph any object again. Now you're ECL 8 with enough XP to be 10th level; repeat. Now you have 15 levels in the monster class but you're still only ECL 9 and you still have enough XP to be level 10. Repeat this once more and, finally, your ECL matches your XP. You have 18 levels in the monster class but only 45,000 XP. When you reach 55,000 XP you will complete the monster class and gain a class level. In short, if polymorph any object gives you the level adjustment of the creature you become, all level adjustment is free.
thepuregamer 01-27-06, 12:54 AM	Small question, when you eat a brain, you get one of their abilities right? If you eat the brain of another savant, you just get one of that savants abilities right? If you only get one out of it, then what is the purpose of eating another savants brain? What you get the ability to eat another brain one more time which allows you to eat another brain one more time? If you only get 1 ability out of this, it seems like over the course of the class, you are still limited to 2 abilities from 2 brains. Although since I do not have the book I may never know the exact wording of the whole thing.
Lokiyn 01-27-06, 01:15 AM	You eat the brain of an illithid savant that can have two abilities gained through brain munching giving you a gain of 1 extra.
thepuregamer 01-27-06, 08:51 AM	Well, the main problem, is this ability isn't an at will use ability. It activates only twice. Once when the illithid savant turns 5th lvl and once when he turns 9th lvl. If you take that ability from another savant, it would not activate again as you would not meet the requirements to activate the ability. Also, if the other savant already used it both times, it would seem that the ability would already be spent. A minor note would be that you might be able to activate it once if you were at 5th or 9th lvl but that still leaves you with only one use of the ability.
deathwishjoe 01-27-06, 06:50 PM	Well, the main problem, is this ability isn't an at will use ability. It activates only twice. Once when the illithid savant turns 5th lvl and once when he turns 9th lvl. it doesnt matter if its not an at will ability. it still gain the class ability as if I had just gained the level in the class that grants the ability. also you gain the ability three times. 3rd level, 7th level and 10th level. If you take that ability from another savant, it would not activate again as you would not meet the requirements to activate the ability. I dont need to meet the requirements for the ability aside from eating a brain. thats the whole point of the class. I dont need to be an ilithid savant level 7 to gain aquire class feature 2. I dont need to be a rogue to gain the sneak attack feature listed in the sample illithid savant character in the book. A minor note would be that you might be able to activate it once if you were at 5th or 9th lvl but that still leaves you with only one use of the ability. level 7 is all you need to use aquire class feature once to gain two new uses of it. and I most certainly gain two uses of it otherwise the sample character for the illithid savant class would have only gain 1d6 in sneak attack damage instead of 7d6 sneak attack damage. I'm sorry to say that this combo works and aside from manipulate form removing his EX abilites he is completely invulnerable.
thepuregamer 01-28-06, 02:06 AM	Acquire Class feature (Ex): At 3rd lvl, an illithid savant permanently gains one class feature of a consumed brain's owner, as a character of that creature's level in that class. Acquire special attack or special quality(ex): At 5th level, the illithid savant permanently gains one special attack or special quality of a consumed brain's owner. This is what it says. So if you use acquire class feature to acquire special attack or special quality something only happens if the lvl of that illithid savant was at 5th or 9th. The ability only happens at 5th or 9th. Notice that it says, " at 5th lvl, the illithid savant permanently gains" an ability. It doesn't say at 5th lvl or any lvl afterward. It doesn't say at will. It just says at 5th lvl. Meaning the ability only activates at 5th and 9th lvl. If the illithid is not 5th or 9th lvl, nothing happens. If he is 5th lvl, you get to use the ability acquire special attack once. If he is 9th lvl, you get to use the ability acquire special attack once. Meaning that you may acquire 5 special attacks or qualities over the course of this class if you sacrifice all your acquire class feature abilities. That is all I am saying. If you can still achieve invulnerability in 5 special qualities then there is no problem here.
deathwishjoe 01-28-06, 03:06 AM	So if you use acquire class feature to acquire special attack or special quality something only happens if the lvl of that illithid savant was at 5th or 9th. Evasion (Ex) At 2nd level, a shadowdancer gains evasion. If exposed to any effect that normally allows her to attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage, she takes no damage with a successful saving throw. The evasion ability can only be used if the shadowdancer is wearing light armor or no armor. if Im a level 3 shadowdancer do I loose the ability to use evasion? I'm no longer level 2 shadowdancer any more. It doesn't say at 2nd lvl or any lvl afterward. It doesn't say at will. It just says at 2nd lvl. Also it is clearly documented that if an ability becomes more powerful with higher levels and you take the ability from a higher level character you gain the higher level version of it. hence if I use the acquire class feature on a 7th level illithid savant I gain the ability to use aqcure class feature twice not just once.
Wizu 01-28-06, 03:32 AM	Hes right (the op), stop bickering. Now I just want to know the "most" optimal use of this combo. How can I make a character that can actually do something else than not die, what would be the niche he would be best filling? Skillmonkey?
deathwishjoe 01-28-06, 04:46 AM	well to tell the truth while skill monkey would seem to be a usefull application of said build I would bet that it might be hard to find NPCs with decent ranks in a skill you want. it wouldnt surpise me if finding a rank higher then say 15 becomes problematic. as for good uses just look at any PrC or monster with any ability that sounds interesting. even spell casting can be yours. and for every spellcasters brain you eat you gain a new spell slots per day of casting giving you allmost unlimited spells per day if Im reading the abilities correct. any spellcasters spell list is yours, any PrC ability you want is yours. the possibilities are endless. the name Pun-Pun lite was a good name as the character can grant himself any ability it wants as long as it finds a brain with said ability. it would take much longer and much more work to become as powerful as pun-pun but this character could do it. thinking back its probably best not to play this character. Im getting tired and its time for me to sleep. so long and farewell.
pvrhye 02-20-06, 04:15 AM	Reminds me of my old 3.0 standard. Mindflayer savant eats a Rakshasha for 1-8th level spell imunity, an ocean giant for bludgeoning immunity, and picks up the half golem template (clay I believe. The one with immnity to piercing/slashing) So you are immune to everything except non-magical elemental damage.