Another rogue build :) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Another rogue build :) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
fullgaz
07-13-05, 05:13 AM Hello everybody,

I play a character since level 1 and I'm now level 6. We use basic books and all "complete" books.
Here is my current character (stats 16,18,16,16,14,14):

1 Rogue 1 - Dodge - Impr Init - SA 1d6
2 Ranger 1 - Track
3 Rogue 2 - Mobility - Evasion
4 Ranger 2- TWF - +1 DEX (19)
5 Rogue 3- SA 2d6
6 Rogue 4 - Spring attack - uncanny dodge

I plan to go this way :
7 Assassin 1 -Death attack - SA +3D6
8 Assassin 2 - Impr Uncanny dodge - Dex +1 (20)
9 Assassin 3 - Impr TWF - SA +4d6
10 Assassin 4 -
11 Assassin 5 - SA +5d6
12 Assassin 6 - Grt TWF - Dex +1 (21)
13 Assassin 7 - SA +6d6
14 Assassin 8 - Hide in plain sight
15 Assassin 9 - Feat=Iron Will ? - SA +7d6
16 Tempest 1 - Dex +1 (22)
17 Tempest 2
18 Tempest 3 - Feat =?
19 Tempest 4
20 Tempest 5 TWF spring attack

This will give me at level 20 : 16 BAB, SA:7d6, 4th level assasins spells,
The tempest gives me 3 AC parry points, no penalty at TWF (a kind of +2 to hit) and this TWF spring attack.

My question is : Is this build makes sense ? is it good ? If not, please advise.
what feats to take after Grtr TWF ? I was thinking at Iron will because my Will save is quite bad.

also I hope I understand well this TWF spring attack - I understand I will be able to move then to do attacks with both hands then re-move.

thanks !
rilem
07-13-05, 10:29 AM Five lousy levels of Tempest don't justify the TWF Spring Attack ability, in my opinion. By that period, you've also demolished many of your key rogue skills (you're lacking the Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny).

Yes, you effectively get +2 to hit with those 5 Tempest levels. Or, you could take 1 level of Knight of the Middle Circle (S&F) or 2 in Justicar of Taiia (D&Dgods) and get a +2 insight bonus.

As you mention, your will save bites — I'd take Iron Will (or a high will-save class) earlier.

Assassin isn't very highly thought of by many regulars here — Death Attack is overrated unless you devote your entire build to it. (I agree, but the spells are getting better all the time). But certainly stop at level 8 to avoid the extra BAB hit. Take Nightsong Enforcer instead, for the extra +1d6 sneak and Full BAB.
Khazra Reborn
07-13-05, 10:59 AM the better rogue combat Prc out there is invisble blade. its very good with full BaB & 3D6 SA.
Nightsong enforcer is very good & used alot round here aswell for the same reasons.
is there anyscope to change feats about a bit?

The only time ive ever used spring attack for a rogue was with a whisper gnome rogue11/rokugan ninja9 because i was doing str damage, con damage, silenting (no save) & posioning when i did (plus i had 80 movement). Its generally not a great tactic & is very much overshadowed by TWF.
Ensanitii
07-13-05, 11:10 AM I plan to go this way :

12 Assassin 6 - Grt TWF - Dex +1 (21)

My question is : Is this build makes sense ? is it good ? If not, please advise.
what feats to take after Grtr TWF ? I was thinking at Iron will because my Will save is quite bad.

Just something wrong here.. Grt TWF needs +11 BAB to get and L1 Rogue/L1 Assassin both are +0's so that means you'd only have +10BAB by level 12. You'd have to take it at 15 or grab L1 Fighter sometime after 12 to aquire it as a bonus feat.
rilem
07-13-05, 11:37 AM Its generally not a great tactic & is very much overshadowed by TWF.

Totally disagree here. The chief problem with TWF rogues is that they're still nearby when the monster gets its full attack. All those D6 hit dice add up, but not very high.

Spring attack doesn't deal as much damage, but ultimately it's a very survivable strategy.

The best TWF rogues will sacrifice sneak-attack damage for better HD, better armor and defensive feats. They don't have to deal as much damage with each hit, because they'll be hitting more often.
Generic Poster
07-13-05, 02:35 PM Aside from the Invisible blade and Nightsong Enforcer, another great fighter/rogue prc is the whisperknife. Next time I make a character I'm going to build one like this:
Strongheart Halfling, Swashbuckler 5/Invisible Blade 5/Whisperknife 10
(the feats up to 9th would all be ones required to qualify for IB or Whisperknife, after that I'd just fill in with twf feats and possibly precise shot)

Not only does this character get full BAB,6d6 sneak attack damage + intelligence bonus damage, 5 + high intelligence skill points on average, but it also gives me a bunch of other nifty ability such as feint as free action, risk free poison use, faster movement, ranged flank attacks, stunning dagger attacks, improved uncanny dodge, and a couple other skills that can come in handy such as being able to move and catch returning daggers. Honestly with all those abilities, especially the ones that almost gurantee you do sneak attack damage, it puts the sneak attack fighter variant from Unearthed Arcana to shame. Plus did I mention you're getting an average of d8 on your hitpoints instead of d6? Plus you can go epic with the whisper knife now and get all those extra epic feats afterwards.

I know you probably won't be to do such a build now that the game has already started, but I though I'd put it out there since we're already talking about fighting rogue builds.
fullgaz
07-13-05, 02:57 PM thanks for all these inputs and sorry for my mistake on the feat at level 12 !

I checked the prestige class in the books I had and with your inputs i understand Tempest is really not a good idea.

Even if death attack is not as good as it seems,I still think that assassin is not so bad especially with the spell list that can be cast as a "swift action". going 8 or 9 will depend on the last PrC as I planned level 9 as assasin to get one more D6 knowing that the tempest should give me the BaB.

The nightsong enforcer seems very nice .. I missed this one .. I have to think about it and try some figures to see what's the best.

Invisible balde .. I already looked at the PrC but it does not fit what I want to play (that's not optimization I now but I have to feeel the char !!)

Can you please tell me where I can find the whisperknife ?

Also for feat I think I will go on "iron will" quite early cos my current save really s##ks.

Full.
Generic Poster
07-13-05, 03:01 PM whisperknife is from the Races of the Wild
crap, that would be off limits I suppose, sorry I missed the first line about only using complete books

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fullgaz 07-13-05, 05:13 AM	Hello everybody, I play a character since level 1 and I'm now level 6. We use basic books and all "complete" books. Here is my current character (stats 16,18,16,16,14,14): 1 Rogue 1 - Dodge - Impr Init - SA 1d6 2 Ranger 1 - Track 3 Rogue 2 - Mobility - Evasion 4 Ranger 2- TWF - +1 DEX (19) 5 Rogue 3- SA 2d6 6 Rogue 4 - Spring attack - uncanny dodge I plan to go this way : 7 Assassin 1 -Death attack - SA +3D6 8 Assassin 2 - Impr Uncanny dodge - Dex +1 (20) 9 Assassin 3 - Impr TWF - SA +4d6 10 Assassin 4 - 11 Assassin 5 - SA +5d6 12 Assassin 6 - Grt TWF - Dex +1 (21) 13 Assassin 7 - SA +6d6 14 Assassin 8 - Hide in plain sight 15 Assassin 9 - Feat=Iron Will ? - SA +7d6 16 Tempest 1 - Dex +1 (22) 17 Tempest 2 18 Tempest 3 - Feat =? 19 Tempest 4 20 Tempest 5 TWF spring attack This will give me at level 20 : 16 BAB, SA:7d6, 4th level assasins spells, The tempest gives me 3 AC parry points, no penalty at TWF (a kind of +2 to hit) and this TWF spring attack. My question is : Is this build makes sense ? is it good ? If not, please advise. what feats to take after Grtr TWF ? I was thinking at Iron will because my Will save is quite bad. also I hope I understand well this TWF spring attack - I understand I will be able to move then to do attacks with both hands then re-move. thanks !
rilem 07-13-05, 10:29 AM	Five lousy levels of Tempest don't justify the TWF Spring Attack ability, in my opinion. By that period, you've also demolished many of your key rogue skills (you're lacking the Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny). Yes, you effectively get +2 to hit with those 5 Tempest levels. Or, you could take 1 level of Knight of the Middle Circle (S&F) or 2 in Justicar of Taiia (D&Dgods) and get a +2 insight bonus. As you mention, your will save bites — I'd take Iron Will (or a high will-save class) earlier. Assassin isn't very highly thought of by many regulars here — Death Attack is overrated unless you devote your entire build to it. (I agree, but the spells are getting better all the time). But certainly stop at level 8 to avoid the extra BAB hit. Take Nightsong Enforcer instead, for the extra +1d6 sneak and Full BAB.
Khazra Reborn 07-13-05, 10:59 AM	the better rogue combat Prc out there is invisble blade. its very good with full BaB & 3D6 SA. Nightsong enforcer is very good & used alot round here aswell for the same reasons. is there anyscope to change feats about a bit? The only time ive ever used spring attack for a rogue was with a whisper gnome rogue11/rokugan ninja9 because i was doing str damage, con damage, silenting (no save) & posioning when i did (plus i had 80 movement). Its generally not a great tactic & is very much overshadowed by TWF.
Ensanitii 07-13-05, 11:10 AM	I plan to go this way : 12 Assassin 6 - Grt TWF - Dex +1 (21) My question is : Is this build makes sense ? is it good ? If not, please advise. what feats to take after Grtr TWF ? I was thinking at Iron will because my Will save is quite bad. Just something wrong here.. Grt TWF needs +11 BAB to get and L1 Rogue/L1 Assassin both are +0's so that means you'd only have +10BAB by level 12. You'd have to take it at 15 or grab L1 Fighter sometime after 12 to aquire it as a bonus feat.
rilem 07-13-05, 11:37 AM	Its generally not a great tactic & is very much overshadowed by TWF. Totally disagree here. The chief problem with TWF rogues is that they're still nearby when the monster gets its full attack. All those D6 hit dice add up, but not very high. Spring attack doesn't deal as much damage, but ultimately it's a very survivable strategy. The best TWF rogues will sacrifice sneak-attack damage for better HD, better armor and defensive feats. They don't have to deal as much damage with each hit, because they'll be hitting more often.
Generic Poster 07-13-05, 02:35 PM	Aside from the Invisible blade and Nightsong Enforcer, another great fighter/rogue prc is the whisperknife. Next time I make a character I'm going to build one like this: Strongheart Halfling, Swashbuckler 5/Invisible Blade 5/Whisperknife 10 (the feats up to 9th would all be ones required to qualify for IB or Whisperknife, after that I'd just fill in with twf feats and possibly precise shot) Not only does this character get full BAB,6d6 sneak attack damage + intelligence bonus damage, 5 + high intelligence skill points on average, but it also gives me a bunch of other nifty ability such as feint as free action, risk free poison use, faster movement, ranged flank attacks, stunning dagger attacks, improved uncanny dodge, and a couple other skills that can come in handy such as being able to move and catch returning daggers. Honestly with all those abilities, especially the ones that almost gurantee you do sneak attack damage, it puts the sneak attack fighter variant from Unearthed Arcana to shame. Plus did I mention you're getting an average of d8 on your hitpoints instead of d6? Plus you can go epic with the whisper knife now and get all those extra epic feats afterwards. I know you probably won't be to do such a build now that the game has already started, but I though I'd put it out there since we're already talking about fighting rogue builds.
fullgaz 07-13-05, 02:57 PM	thanks for all these inputs and sorry for my mistake on the feat at level 12 ! I checked the prestige class in the books I had and with your inputs i understand Tempest is really not a good idea. Even if death attack is not as good as it seems,I still think that assassin is not so bad especially with the spell list that can be cast as a "swift action". going 8 or 9 will depend on the last PrC as I planned level 9 as assasin to get one more D6 knowing that the tempest should give me the BaB. The nightsong enforcer seems very nice .. I missed this one .. I have to think about it and try some figures to see what's the best. Invisible balde .. I already looked at the PrC but it does not fit what I want to play (that's not optimization I now but I have to feeel the char !!) Can you please tell me where I can find the whisperknife ? Also for feat I think I will go on "iron will" quite early cos my current save really s##ks. Full.
Generic Poster 07-13-05, 03:01 PM	whisperknife is from the Races of the Wild crap, that would be off limits I suppose, sorry I missed the first line about only using complete books