Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PhoenixInferno 11-01-06, 04:44 AM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20061031a Let the drubbings commence! My quick scan indicated no faulty advice (although I did pick up a few editing errors), but let's dissect it like the article on Mystic Theurges.
LogicNinja 11-01-06, 04:56 AM	"Warmages are particularily suited to become Eldritch Knights"--no, they're not. Warmages make crappy Eldritch Knights; damaging people is all they do; why add "damage people in melee" to that at the cost of caster levels?
Vikjunk 11-01-06, 05:57 AM	"Warmages are particularily suited to become Eldritch Knights"--no, they're not. Warmages make crappy Eldritch Knights; damaging people is all they do; why add "damage people in melee" to that at the cost of caster levels? True, I think a Wu Jen would be a better chose then a Warmage since a lot of their spells are nice Buff spells like Body Outside Body, Polymorph, Giant Size, Scales of the Lizard, and Metal Skin. But even with those it don't come anywhere close to what a Wizard can do.
Prominence 11-01-06, 07:16 AM	However, all eldritch knights should aim to buy a ring of force shield (+2 bonus to AC, no arcane spell failure chance) to replace their shield or buckler as quickly as possible. Despite that a mithril buckler is 0% asf, or just casting the shield spell is flat out better. As discussed above, all eldritch knights should consider the Still Spell feat to offset their arcane spell failure chance. Many eldritch knights also take Lightning Reflexes to improve their poor Will save. Finally, they often take Extend Spell (PHB) or Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane) to increase the duration and efficacy of their spells. Eldritch knights with the Eschew Materials feat (PHB) do not have to use material components costing 1 gp or less; this allows such characters to wield two-handed weapons, or a weapon and shield, while casting spells with such components. I don't think still pell is great, Lightning reflexes is a horrid feat, practiced spellcaster is somewhat wasted on 1-2 caster level loss, and the Eschew Materials parts makes no sense. Melee Eldritch Knight:... Four levels of fighter in a gish? Dervish? O_o rcher eldritch knights also often take levels in darkwood stalker ...and lose more caster levels? Possessions combat gear plus +2 scale mail, +2 battleaxe, +1 composite longbow (+3 Str), amulet of natural armor +1, cloak of protection +3, ring of protection +2, headband of intellect +2 +2 enhancement bonuses...enough said? Abilities Str 16, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8 Anything with 10 con is probably going to die fast. Ignoring leveling points, 16 str could have been 14 str 14 con and ensured better survivability. My main problems were the lack of Otherwordly and Militia feats being mentioned as easier entry, and there was no Abjurant Champion synergy mentioned.
runestar 11-01-06, 07:32 AM	Found some... Poor Attack Bonus: An eldritch knight's base attack bonus is better than a normal spellcaster's but is not as good as a single-classed fighter's. They get full bab, just like a fighter...:rolleyes: For example, the familiar of a fighter 1/wizard 7/eldritch knight 3 only has the abilities granted by a 7th-level master, and not a 10th-level master. This liability is not as earth-shattering as he makes it out to be, since a fair chunk of a familiar's abilities are not directly tied to a wiz's class lvs. Use Magic Items: While, unfortunately, scrolls are treated as spells in terms of arcane spell failure chance, other wondrous items such as wands and staffs are not. Thus, an eldritch knight can wear any kind of armor he desires and use such magic items without fear of failure. But overall still a decent article.:) Nice to see that twillight mithril chain shirts are quickly catching on with wotc game designers...:D Anything with 10 con is probably going to die fast. Ignoring leveling points, 16 str could have been 14 str 14 con and ensured better survivability. He was using the elite stat array, so he lacked the leeway of being able to distribute stat points as freely as he might like. I don't think still pell is great, Lightning reflexes is a horrid feat, practiced spellcaster is somewhat wasted on 1-2 caster level loss, and the Eschew Materials parts makes no sense. Agree with lightning reflexes bit. Though I would still take practiced spellcaster even if I only got 1/2 the benefit(I will have a bard use inspire greatness in combat, granting me an additional 2 HD, which translates to the final +2caster lv bonus to be granted via practiced spellcaster):) As mentioned, eschew materials should be taken if you plan on using a medium shield, since you are not able to manipulate items with your shield hand, and you must either spend a move action sheathing your weapon, or drop it as a free action) Despite that a mithril buckler is 0% asf, or just casting the shield spell is flat out better. And how a +1mithral buckler is actually cheaper than a shield ring...:rolleyes:
LogicNinja 11-01-06, 07:33 AM	They mean that because of your mix of caster and warrior levels, your BAB will be lower than a Fighter 20s. Oh noes.
runestar 11-01-06, 07:41 AM	They mean that because of your mix of caster and warrior levels, your BAB will be lower than a Fighter 20s. They have never heard of divine power, right?;)
LogicNinja 11-01-06, 07:44 AM	...they probably think that Eldritch Knights aren't likely to have Divine Power, no.
runestar 11-01-06, 07:46 AM	...they probably think that Eldritch Knights aren't likely to have Divine Power, no. I must be the only one who uses rings of spell storing in my campaigns then...:P
LogicNinja 11-01-06, 07:53 AM	"Use a ring of spell storing with Divine Power" isn't exactly "Eldritch Knight advice". That tactic has nothing to do with the Eldritch Knight, really; if you have the item and a cooperative spellcaster willing to give up the slots, anyone can do it. It's a way of compensating for the EK's lower (compared to a fighter's) BAB. That doesn't change the fact that the lower BAB is a weakness compared to full-BAB types, which is what they were saying.
runestar 11-01-06, 08:10 AM	Few more errors...his list of spells without simatic components is a bit off... Irresistable dance is a 8th lv wiz/sorc spell, not a 7th lv one. Mass charm monster is a 8th lv spell as well, not a 6th lv one. But overall very minor ones.:) They mean that because of your mix of caster and warrior levels, your BAB will be lower than a Fighter 20s. Actually, I still have my reservations, I am betting that the writer mistook EK for a 3/4bab prc, and not a full bab one. He might have realised his error later on in the article, but neglected to rectify his earlier statement. Though we may never know...
Skadrian 11-01-06, 08:14 AM	I don't think still pell is great, Lightning reflexes is a horrid feat, practiced spellcaster is somewhat wasted on 1-2 caster level loss, and the Eschew Materials parts makes no sense. not only is lightning reflexes a horrid feat, it is even worse if you want a better will save :)
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-01-06, 09:51 AM	You know, I wonder if what would happen if someone from the Char Op Board wrote these articles. I wonder if people would get angry if we told them not to go certain routes because they sucked. :D
Eela6 11-01-06, 10:03 AM	You know, I wonder if what would happen if someone from the Char Op Board wrote these articles. I wonder if people would get angry if we told them not to go certain routes because they sucked. That's a very good idea. We could write articles with actual advice, citing things like "+16 BAB/9th Level Spells" as advantages rather than "Good Fortitude Saves."
kilroo 11-01-06, 10:41 AM	You know, I wonder if what would happen if someone from the Char Op Board wrote these articles. I wonder if people would get angry if we told them not to go certain routes because they sucked. :D ...That made me giggle.
Skadrian 11-01-06, 11:06 AM	That's a very good idea. We could write articles with actual advice, citing things like "+16 BAB/9th Level Spells" as advantages rather than "Good Fortitude Saves." and this made me giggle
PhaedrusXY 11-01-06, 11:07 AM	not only is lightning reflexes a horrid feat, it is even worse if you want a better will save :)Yeah, I thought that was pretty funny. I don't think most people play the same game that people who frequent this board are playing...
Prominence 11-01-06, 11:09 AM	I don't think most people play the same game that people who frequent this board are playing... Wait, not everyone optimizes their magic missiles to produce a light effect that dispels darkness and damages shadows?
FeceMan 11-01-06, 02:47 PM	WHAT RETARD WOULD GO FROM DUSKBLADE TO ELDRITCH KNIGHT?
creepy drifter 11-01-06, 02:53 PM	First it was Kolja's unbelievable "arcane spellcaster advice" printed in Complete Mage. Now it's Creighton Broadhurst's bizarro advice posted in this WotC article. Why are so many WotC designers posting not only questionable advice ... but *truely bad advice* to players? I'd really like to be present at some of their games they play because it just doesn't seem to be anything remotely similar to people who have even an ounce of optimization emphasis in their 3.5 game play. Seriously, game designers should be a level above us folks in regards to understanding the best combinatorial mechanics of D&D.
PhoenixInferno 11-01-06, 03:36 PM	I'd really like to be present at some of their games they play because it just doesn't seem to be anything remotely similar to people who have even an ounce of optimization emphasis in their 3.5 game play. Seriously, game designers should be a level above us folks in regards to understanding the best combinatorial mechanics of D&D.Maybe they are, but they may have other constraints that prevent them from correct implementation.
SKB 11-01-06, 04:43 PM	Maybe they are, but they may have other constraints that prevent them from correct implementation. Oh!..You mean like a coloring book.
HaikenEdge 11-01-06, 04:52 PM	Maybe they are, but they may have other constraints that prevent them from correct implementation. You mean like WotC tells them, "Give players good advice, and we'll fire your ***!"?
tsuyoshikentsu 11-01-06, 04:57 PM	Maybe Wizards is just trying to keep a balanced viewpoint by saying that every class is perfectly playable, so have fun playing hwat you like. Oh, I know it's not true, but hey.
X-Codes 11-01-06, 05:27 PM	Maybe Wizards is just trying to keep a balanced viewpoint by saying that every class is perfectly playable, so have fun playing hwat you like. Oh, I know it's not true, but hey. Vigilante. 'Nuff said. You never even see WotC plug Vigilante.
Think0028 11-01-06, 05:57 PM	Vigilante. 'Nuff said. You never even see WotC plug Vigilante. I've seen Vigilante mentioned as a good choice for a build twice in my entire time here. First was because someone wanted a class that fit his flavor of living on the streets and training. Second was a build that manage to make Vigilante not totally sucktacular.
Eela6 11-01-06, 07:44 PM	First was because someone wanted a class that fit his flavor of living on the streets and training. Second was a build that manage to make Vigilante not totally sucktacular. Oh, hey, I remember that build. That was nutty. In all honesty, It be cool if the CO boards start their own little 'E-magazine'. We could have a couple articles - say, one on using a sub-par prestige class effectively, one on 'dissecting some new stuff', a Q+A session, and some 'designing like an optimizer' things - (everybody likes new material, eh?). We could also talk about what not to do: Eldritch Knight: We're entering this class with as many full casting levels as possible. It's essential to be on top of the magic curve. Since the first level of Eldritch Knight loses a caster level, you're already going to be at least half a spell level behind. Add on a level of, say, Fighter, and you're an entire spell level behind. While a Bard/Eldritch Knight may be fun conceptually, you're shooting yourself in the foot with that - over and over again. There's a couple ways to enter the prestige class without dipping out of casting, however - 1.) Be an Outsider - Outsiders automatically get proficency with all Martial Weapons. Why this is, I have no idea, but let's not look a gift horse in the mouth. The Neraph (Planar Handbook) is a good start - it's a LA+0 Outsider. 2.) The Militia feat ... (and so on.)
tsuyoshikentsu 11-01-06, 07:49 PM	So, essentially, you're saying write a handbook? ;)
HaikenEdge 11-01-06, 08:17 PM	So, essentially, you're saying write a handbook? ;) Not a bad idea, really. I'm game to help out, if necessary. Something along the lines of "Character Optimization Character Class" would be interesting to writers and helpful to newer players.
megageek 11-01-06, 10:41 PM	To bequite frank I think all those unoptimized psionic-haters on wotc staff, should get their arses fired! Hey maybe we should optimize the designers stats! stats are 10,10,10,10,10,10. expert 20 all ranks in either proffesion: unoptimization, or craft: supplements.:heehee
xpochian 11-01-06, 10:51 PM	WHAT RETARD WOULD GO FROM DUSKBLADE TO ELDRITCH KNIGHT? hah, ok that got me laughing. kudos on your presentation of your disagreement as well!
megageek 11-01-06, 11:50 PM	Any thoughts on my idea?!
PhoenixInferno 11-01-06, 11:52 PM	So, essentially, you're saying write a handbook? ;)I'm with him - we already do that.
megageek 11-01-06, 11:53 PM	My idea is different... That is if you are talking to me:D .
Eela6 11-01-06, 11:55 PM	So, essentially, you're saying write a handbook? Essentially, yes. We would have to Jazz up the presentation somewhat and get it on the main D+D site for it's purpose to really be complete, though. Handbooks are a little too specific - an article should be on the level of two to three pages (rather than the twelve pages a Handbook will often attest to). More general (but optimized) tips on feat choice and entry, etc rather than complete builds.
megageek 11-02-06, 12:11 AM	So you were talkin to me...
PhoenixInferno 11-02-06, 12:24 AM	More general (but optimized) tips on feat choice and entry, etc rather than complete builds.That's what I tried to do with my Hammer of Moradin handbook (see sig). Could have gotten more into feat choice though.
FlimFlam 11-02-06, 12:24 AM	"Warmages are particularily suited to become Eldritch Knights"--no, they're not. Warmages make crappy Eldritch Knights; damaging people is all they do; why add "damage people in melee" to that at the cost of caster levels? Well, they can cast in armor w/o much of a problem. I think that makes them well suited.
ff6shadow 11-02-06, 01:01 AM	Also, a warmage goinging to Eldritch Knight might just want the exra attack bonus. Good for all those ranged touch attacks.
fil kearney 11-02-06, 01:09 AM	this guy is hopeless. with lightning relfexes, weapon specialization, and craft arms and armour, where is he gonna squeeze in those wicked feats like still spell and eschew material components anyway? isn't there afeat that reduces the effective olevel of a meta-modified spell? that would at least leave the still spell the same level... why wasn't THAT recommended for a full plate tower shield caster?
runestar 11-02-06, 02:03 AM	isn't there afeat that reduces the effective olevel of a meta-modified spell? that would at least leave the still spell the same level... why wasn't THAT recommended for a full plate tower shield caster? There aren't that many feats which can reduce the slot adjustment of a metamagic feat below 1, arcane thesis possibly being the only one I am aware of, and that too is very narrowly focused...:P
Endarire 11-02-06, 03:31 AM	I'm somewhat surprised they didn't mention at what point we should take them as a joke. -EE