Anti-Undead Psi-Tactics? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Anti-Undead Psi-Tactics? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tleilaxu_Ghola
11-17-05, 05:30 PM Currently I am playing in campaign whose main focus is the destruction of undead. This means lots of necromancers, skelatons, zombies, vampires, etc. Currently, the party is at 4th level. Here is the character I have currently:

Human: Ftr1/Egoist3
Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge, Psi-crystal Affinity, Power Attack.

My future build idea is as follows: Ftr1/Egoist3/Rng1/Egoist1/Slayer10/Egoist4
Future Feats (in order): EK(Claws of the Beast), EK(Psionic Lion's Charge), EK(Schism), Leap Attack, XXX

I might switch Leap Attack and Schism around depending on which I will need more (self-buffing w/o actions) or more damage. Right now I'm leaning on Schism first. I get track as a virtual feat from ranger, so that takes care of that pre-req.

As for anti-undead tactics I have the following:
1. Vampires & Corporeal Undead: Spirited Charge should annihilate them, at third level I averaged 31.5 damage (when buffed). At fourth level I average 37.5 (by gaining access to animal affinity to boost my strength).
2. Incorporeal Undead: There is no magic missile equivalent so far as I know, so all my spells and attacks suffer a 50% miss-chance. (until I get a ghost-touch lance... which is a high priority for me). Ideas are welcome here!
3. Anti-necrocasters: They're usually weak casters. What cannot be solved by massive damage from a charging lance attack? Problem: minions in the way! Our DM loves to use that corpse-crafter feat that makes minions explode in a negative energy burst upon death... it's rather annoying, and the source of much pain.

Other problems I have: My Mount!! Until I get metamorphosis I won't be able to ride my psi-crystal, and riding dogs are very weak. (oh btw, I have a ring of reduce person that brings allows me to ride medium mounts in a dungeon :D ). Any solutions? I am loth to abandon any more manifester levels, because I am acting as some-what of a "caster-replacement" model. (There are no straight arcane casters in the party).

Party consists of: Cleric (going for radiant servant of pelor), Hexblade, Me, and a Warlock.

The question: What are some good psi-tactics vs. undead?
(Qualification: New builds AFTER fourth level are welcome, but I cannot change the character's current levels.)

ALSO, BOOKS OPEN: CORE, COMLETE SERIES, XPH, LIBRIS MORTIS (to a limited extent, mostly for the DM).
ck2001wendt
11-17-05, 05:51 PM As for anti-undead tactics I have the following:
1. Skelatons, Zombies: No matter how many corpse crafter feats (which our DM uses liberally), they only have 1 point of charisma... Ego whip deals a minimum of 1 point of Cha dmg on a failed save. So Ego-Whip is an insta-gib.
2. Vampires & Corporeal Undead: Spirited Charge should annihilate them, at third level I averaged 31.5 damage (when buffed). At fourth level I average 37.5 (by gaining access to animal affinity to boost my strength).
3. Incorporeal Undead: There is no magic missile equivalent so far as I know, so all my spells and attacks suffer a 50% miss-chance. (until I get a ghost-touch lance... which is a high priority for me). Ideas are welcome here!
4. Anti-necrocasters: They're usually weak casters. What cannot be solved by massive damage from a charging lance attack? Problem: minions in the way! Our DM loves to use that corpse-crafter feat that makes minions explode in a negative energy burst upon death... it's rather annoying, and the source of much pain.

Ego Whip is Mind Affecting. Skeletons have the Undead type, and are therefore immune to Mind-Affecting spells.

As for the others, I'd think about maxing some energy powers and using Electricity as the energy type. Undead have no constitution, so generally crap fort saves. Elec switches the save on energy powers to Fort.

Concussive Blast (Psi 2) is the Psionic Magic Missile. As a Force effect, it is what you want to use against incorporeal undead.
Grey_Wulf
11-17-05, 05:54 PM 1. Skelatons, Zombies: No matter how many corpse crafter feats (which our DM uses liberally), they only have 1 point of charisma... Ego whip deals a minimum of 1 point of Cha dmg on a failed save. So Ego-Whip is an insta-gib.

Don't Skeletons and Zombies have Undead traits? If so, Ego Whip can't work against them. It's has the mind-affecting descriptor.

4. Anti-necrocasters: They're usually weak casters. What cannot be solved by massive damage from a charging lance attack? Problem: minions in the way! Our DM loves to use that corpse-crafter feat that makes minions explode in a negative energy burst upon death... it's rather annoying, and the source of much pain.

I don't see why you'd have to go through the minions if you can hit the master from afar with Energy powers (energy ray, energy push, energy bolt). Or just hit the minions this way. If you manage to get Energy Wave, it'll certainly make your day (I don't think the negative energy burst will hit you with the range of energy bolt or energy wave).

am loth to abandon any more manifester levels, because I am acting as some-what of a "caster-replacement" model. (There are no straight arcane casters in the party).

You said it yourself: No straight arcane casters in the party. You should take it upon yourself and find powers that complement your party, something that will cover up whatever the other casters can't cast.

Your build wants to ride into the fray and dish out melee attacks. You can't always charge into a situation. Try shooting from afar first (powers or ranged weapons) just to test the waters (or if opponents die with a neg. energy burst) before charging.

EDIT:
As for the others, I'd think about maxing some energy powers and using Electricity as the energy type. Undead have no constitution, so generally crap fort saves. Elec switches the save on energy powers to Fort.

Many undead have immunity or resistance against electricity so it's not always sureball. Also, it's the cold type that converts the save into Fortitude; electricity adds +2 to the save DC and to the manifester level when beating power resistance. Many undead are also resistant against cold. So, fire and sonic are the only ones left. There are many spells that protect against fire, however, but there are fairly few protection against sonic.

I just remembered, you'd also want Psionic Freedom of Movement (psion/wilder 4) or something that displaces you from a grapple. I once had my character grappled by a vampire with good grappling feats, and I tell you, you don't want to get stuck with him for even one round (especially since you can't just kill it 'coz it explodes with negative energy).
Tleilaxu_Ghola
11-17-05, 06:08 PM Doh! I forgot that mind-affecting bit... Grr... ok. You're all right.

As far as my tactics are concerned: of course I will use spells when they are more effective. I also realize that charging is not always possible. Hense, I plan to pick up claws of the beast at 6th level so that I can function well off of my mount (in case it dies). I will always use the most damaging or most dibilating effect, that's just proper playing. At low levels, the most powerful attack I have is melee. That will change as I get access to higher powers.

I will delete the ego-whip trick and replace it with a (vigor + shared pain + psi-crystal trick) to help my currently sub-par HP. (I only have 26 hp)
Tleilaxu_Ghola
11-17-05, 06:28 PM I don't see why you'd have to go through the minions if you can hit the master from afar with Energy powers (energy ray, energy push, energy bolt). Or just hit the minions this way. If you manage to get Energy Wave, it'll certainly make your day (I don't think the negative energy burst will hit you with the range of energy bolt or energy wave).

You said it yourself: No straight arcane casters in the party. You should take it upon yourself and find powers that complement your party, something that will cover up whatever the other casters can't cast.

Your build wants to ride into the fray and dish out melee attacks. You can't always charge into a situation. Try shooting from afar first (powers or ranged weapons) just to test the waters (or if opponents die with a neg. energy burst) before charging.

The problem is this: My blasting ability is pretty sub-par right now (my only offensive power is crystal shard). I could take energy push, that's the most appealing second level damaging spell. (energy stun is cool, but undead are immune to stunning). As soon as I get 3rd level powers (at 8th level) I will become an effective area effect blaster. I realize the power of area-effects (I almost always play a mage), but in my current situation my most effective attack is my charge attack.

After 8th level, things start accelerating nicely for this character as far as powers go. Until then the most efficient use of my resources is to act as a front-liner gish. My charging attack is basically my low level sniper gun: low resouce expendature for a high effect.

Example: Last session there was a owlbear skelaton with about 52 hitpoints (corpse crafter was gave it +4 str and +10 HP). Lets put it at about CR3. The beast was ripping everything and everyone apart. In one single charge of glory though I downed the bastard (dealing 42 dmg, he was injured by others down to 75%).

Anyways, I see the value in energy spells, at higher levels, but right now I don't think they're the most effective.

You said it yourself: No straight arcane casters in the party. You should take it upon yourself and find powers that complement your party, something that will cover up whatever the other casters can't cast.

Right, I agree. But what powers should I get to fill this void? Keep in mind we do have a full-caster cleric. I could take empathetic transfer + vigor to heal others (I take on their damage, but I just subtract it from my temp HP pool). Other than that most of the low-level buffs are personal. Do you have any suggested powers?
RadicalTaoist
11-17-05, 06:41 PM Keeping the party and yourself alive will be vital. Body Purification, Body Adjustment, Empathic Transfer, Share Pain.
Speaking of which, both Share Pain, Forced and Fate Link can affect undead, and they STACK. Grab 'em.
And don't discount Ego Whip. But don't use it on the undead. Use it on the living necromancer who's controlling the undead. Rebuking and bolstering runs off of Cha score, remember?
Tleilaxu_Ghola
11-17-05, 07:05 PM I'll be sure to grab those powers when I get them. Definately shared pain and empathetic transfer. But do you think fate link is worth spending a feat on it? Maybe I just don't know the power of the power, but looking at it's description I don't see it being worth a feat. It'd definately be on my list of powers if I were a seer though.
mod5000
11-17-05, 07:06 PM Just wondering, how do you plan to enter the IS PrC without Track? Mebbe should switch the Fighter level for Ranger...?
Tleilaxu_Ghola
11-17-05, 07:37 PM ERm... read the original post...

build is: ftr1/egoist3/RANGER1/egoist4/Slayer10/egoist4
mod5000
11-17-05, 08:04 PM Errm...sry, hehe. It gets around 3 AM after a full day in the army and ur eyes start to wander...
RadicalTaoist
11-17-05, 09:26 PM I'll be sure to grab those powers when I get them. Definately shared pain and empathetic transfer. But do you think fate link is worth spending a feat on it? Maybe I just don't know the power of the power, but looking at it's description I don't see it being worth a feat. It'd definately be on my list of powers if I were a seer though.
It's basically a Share Pain, Forced that doesn't halve the damage, includes a special kill effect, and targets Will initially instead of Fort. The gravy is how it stacks with SPF. S'your call.
Pull My Finger of Death
11-18-05, 02:30 AM Powers I suggest:
(1) Grease -- Slow moving undead haven't a chance. Great against items too (reflex).
(3) Time Hop -- Best power ever. Poor man's Maze (will).
(6) Disintegrate -- Your fort save killer though doesn't help with a minion wall.

An augmented Dimension Door can get you (and your mount) in a caster's grill, but it's expensive. I wouldn't worry about being able to do everything. If there's a minion wall, it's up to the Cleric of Pelor to clear the way for you.

Practiced Spellcaster (Manifester) is something to consider.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-17-05, 05:30 PM	Currently I am playing in campaign whose main focus is the destruction of undead. This means lots of necromancers, skelatons, zombies, vampires, etc. Currently, the party is at 4th level. Here is the character I have currently: Human: Ftr1/Egoist3 Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge, Psi-crystal Affinity, Power Attack. My future build idea is as follows: Ftr1/Egoist3/Rng1/Egoist1/Slayer10/Egoist4 Future Feats (in order): EK(Claws of the Beast), EK(Psionic Lion's Charge), EK(Schism), Leap Attack, XXX I might switch Leap Attack and Schism around depending on which I will need more (self-buffing w/o actions) or more damage. Right now I'm leaning on Schism first. I get track as a virtual feat from ranger, so that takes care of that pre-req. As for anti-undead tactics I have the following: 1. Vampires & Corporeal Undead: Spirited Charge should annihilate them, at third level I averaged 31.5 damage (when buffed). At fourth level I average 37.5 (by gaining access to animal affinity to boost my strength). 2. Incorporeal Undead: There is no magic missile equivalent so far as I know, so all my spells and attacks suffer a 50% miss-chance. (until I get a ghost-touch lance... which is a high priority for me). Ideas are welcome here! 3. Anti-necrocasters: They're usually weak casters. What cannot be solved by massive damage from a charging lance attack? Problem: minions in the way! Our DM loves to use that corpse-crafter feat that makes minions explode in a negative energy burst upon death... it's rather annoying, and the source of much pain. Other problems I have: My Mount!! Until I get metamorphosis I won't be able to ride my psi-crystal, and riding dogs are very weak. (oh btw, I have a ring of reduce person that brings allows me to ride medium mounts in a dungeon :D ). Any solutions? I am loth to abandon any more manifester levels, because I am acting as some-what of a "caster-replacement" model. (There are no straight arcane casters in the party). Party consists of: Cleric (going for radiant servant of pelor), Hexblade, Me, and a Warlock. The question: What are some good psi-tactics vs. undead? (Qualification: New builds AFTER fourth level are welcome, but I cannot change the character's current levels.) ALSO, BOOKS OPEN: CORE, COMLETE SERIES, XPH, LIBRIS MORTIS (to a limited extent, mostly for the DM).
ck2001wendt 11-17-05, 05:51 PM	As for anti-undead tactics I have the following: 1. Skelatons, Zombies: No matter how many corpse crafter feats (which our DM uses liberally), they only have 1 point of charisma... Ego whip deals a minimum of 1 point of Cha dmg on a failed save. So Ego-Whip is an insta-gib. 2. Vampires & Corporeal Undead: Spirited Charge should annihilate them, at third level I averaged 31.5 damage (when buffed). At fourth level I average 37.5 (by gaining access to animal affinity to boost my strength). 3. Incorporeal Undead: There is no magic missile equivalent so far as I know, so all my spells and attacks suffer a 50% miss-chance. (until I get a ghost-touch lance... which is a high priority for me). Ideas are welcome here! 4. Anti-necrocasters: They're usually weak casters. What cannot be solved by massive damage from a charging lance attack? Problem: minions in the way! Our DM loves to use that corpse-crafter feat that makes minions explode in a negative energy burst upon death... it's rather annoying, and the source of much pain. Ego Whip is Mind Affecting. Skeletons have the Undead type, and are therefore immune to Mind-Affecting spells. As for the others, I'd think about maxing some energy powers and using Electricity as the energy type. Undead have no constitution, so generally crap fort saves. Elec switches the save on energy powers to Fort. Concussive Blast (Psi 2) is the Psionic Magic Missile. As a Force effect, it is what you want to use against incorporeal undead.
Grey_Wulf 11-17-05, 05:54 PM	1. Skelatons, Zombies: No matter how many corpse crafter feats (which our DM uses liberally), they only have 1 point of charisma... Ego whip deals a minimum of 1 point of Cha dmg on a failed save. So Ego-Whip is an insta-gib. Don't Skeletons and Zombies have Undead traits? If so, Ego Whip can't work against them. It's has the mind-affecting descriptor. 4. Anti-necrocasters: They're usually weak casters. What cannot be solved by massive damage from a charging lance attack? Problem: minions in the way! Our DM loves to use that corpse-crafter feat that makes minions explode in a negative energy burst upon death... it's rather annoying, and the source of much pain. I don't see why you'd have to go through the minions if you can hit the master from afar with Energy powers (energy ray, energy push, energy bolt). Or just hit the minions this way. If you manage to get Energy Wave, it'll certainly make your day (I don't think the negative energy burst will hit you with the range of energy bolt or energy wave). am loth to abandon any more manifester levels, because I am acting as some-what of a "caster-replacement" model. (There are no straight arcane casters in the party). You said it yourself: No straight arcane casters in the party. You should take it upon yourself and find powers that complement your party, something that will cover up whatever the other casters can't cast. Your build wants to ride into the fray and dish out melee attacks. You can't always charge into a situation. Try shooting from afar first (powers or ranged weapons) just to test the waters (or if opponents die with a neg. energy burst) before charging. EDIT: As for the others, I'd think about maxing some energy powers and using Electricity as the energy type. Undead have no constitution, so generally crap fort saves. Elec switches the save on energy powers to Fort. Many undead have immunity or resistance against electricity so it's not always sureball. Also, it's the cold type that converts the save into Fortitude; electricity adds +2 to the save DC and to the manifester level when beating power resistance. Many undead are also resistant against cold. So, fire and sonic are the only ones left. There are many spells that protect against fire, however, but there are fairly few protection against sonic. I just remembered, you'd also want Psionic Freedom of Movement (psion/wilder 4) or something that displaces you from a grapple. I once had my character grappled by a vampire with good grappling feats, and I tell you, you don't want to get stuck with him for even one round (especially since you can't just kill it 'coz it explodes with negative energy).
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-17-05, 06:08 PM	Doh! I forgot that mind-affecting bit... Grr... ok. You're all right. As far as my tactics are concerned: of course I will use spells when they are more effective. I also realize that charging is not always possible. Hense, I plan to pick up claws of the beast at 6th level so that I can function well off of my mount (in case it dies). I will always use the most damaging or most dibilating effect, that's just proper playing. At low levels, the most powerful attack I have is melee. That will change as I get access to higher powers. I will delete the ego-whip trick and replace it with a (vigor + shared pain + psi-crystal trick) to help my currently sub-par HP. (I only have 26 hp)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-17-05, 06:28 PM	I don't see why you'd have to go through the minions if you can hit the master from afar with Energy powers (energy ray, energy push, energy bolt). Or just hit the minions this way. If you manage to get Energy Wave, it'll certainly make your day (I don't think the negative energy burst will hit you with the range of energy bolt or energy wave). You said it yourself: No straight arcane casters in the party. You should take it upon yourself and find powers that complement your party, something that will cover up whatever the other casters can't cast. Your build wants to ride into the fray and dish out melee attacks. You can't always charge into a situation. Try shooting from afar first (powers or ranged weapons) just to test the waters (or if opponents die with a neg. energy burst) before charging. The problem is this: My blasting ability is pretty sub-par right now (my only offensive power is crystal shard). I could take energy push, that's the most appealing second level damaging spell. (energy stun is cool, but undead are immune to stunning). As soon as I get 3rd level powers (at 8th level) I will become an effective area effect blaster. I realize the power of area-effects (I almost always play a mage), but in my current situation my most effective attack is my charge attack. After 8th level, things start accelerating nicely for this character as far as powers go. Until then the most efficient use of my resources is to act as a front-liner gish. My charging attack is basically my low level sniper gun: low resouce expendature for a high effect. Example: Last session there was a owlbear skelaton with about 52 hitpoints (corpse crafter was gave it +4 str and +10 HP). Lets put it at about CR3. The beast was ripping everything and everyone apart. In one single charge of glory though I downed the bastard (dealing 42 dmg, he was injured by others down to 75%). Anyways, I see the value in energy spells, at higher levels, but right now I don't think they're the most effective. You said it yourself: No straight arcane casters in the party. You should take it upon yourself and find powers that complement your party, something that will cover up whatever the other casters can't cast. Right, I agree. But what powers should I get to fill this void? Keep in mind we do have a full-caster cleric. I could take empathetic transfer + vigor to heal others (I take on their damage, but I just subtract it from my temp HP pool). Other than that most of the low-level buffs are personal. Do you have any suggested powers?
RadicalTaoist 11-17-05, 06:41 PM	Keeping the party and yourself alive will be vital. Body Purification, Body Adjustment, Empathic Transfer, Share Pain. Speaking of which, both Share Pain, Forced and Fate Link can affect undead, and they STACK. Grab 'em. And don't discount Ego Whip. But don't use it on the undead. Use it on the living necromancer who's controlling the undead. Rebuking and bolstering runs off of Cha score, remember?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-17-05, 07:05 PM	I'll be sure to grab those powers when I get them. Definately shared pain and empathetic transfer. But do you think fate link is worth spending a feat on it? Maybe I just don't know the power of the power, but looking at it's description I don't see it being worth a feat. It'd definately be on my list of powers if I were a seer though.
mod5000 11-17-05, 07:06 PM	Just wondering, how do you plan to enter the IS PrC without Track? Mebbe should switch the Fighter level for Ranger...?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-17-05, 07:37 PM	ERm... read the original post... build is: ftr1/egoist3/RANGER1/egoist4/Slayer10/egoist4
mod5000 11-17-05, 08:04 PM	Errm...sry, hehe. It gets around 3 AM after a full day in the army and ur eyes start to wander...
RadicalTaoist 11-17-05, 09:26 PM	I'll be sure to grab those powers when I get them. Definately shared pain and empathetic transfer. But do you think fate link is worth spending a feat on it? Maybe I just don't know the power of the power, but looking at it's description I don't see it being worth a feat. It'd definately be on my list of powers if I were a seer though. It's basically a Share Pain, Forced that doesn't halve the damage, includes a special kill effect, and targets Will initially instead of Fort. The gravy is how it stacks with SPF. S'your call.
Pull My Finger of Death 11-18-05, 02:30 AM	Powers I suggest: (1) Grease -- Slow moving undead haven't a chance. Great against items too (reflex). (3) Time Hop -- Best power ever. Poor man's Maze (will). (6) Disintegrate -- Your fort save killer though doesn't help with a minion wall. An augmented Dimension Door can get you (and your mount) in a caster's grill, but it's expensive. I wouldn't worry about being able to do everything. If there's a minion wall, it's up to the Cleric of Pelor to clear the way for you. Practiced Spellcaster (Manifester) is something to consider.