Antimagic Orbs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Antimagic Orbs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Endarire
01-23-07, 04:09 AM Do Spell Compendium's orb spells like orb of acid, being conjuration (creation), work in antimagic fields? Antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) states An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.

Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field, though Mage's Disjunction might.

Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

I'm pretty sure this doesn't work, but if it does, oh boy.

-EE
NTD
01-23-07, 04:13 AM I'm going to say that the line "Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines." stops you from casting the orbs while inside, since the spell would not function, not creating the orb.

The bolded line means you can shoot into one, or through one, but you still can't cast it while inside one.
Endarire
01-23-07, 04:35 AM That's what I thought, but that still feels... wrong.

-EE
Eyeless Blond
01-23-07, 07:50 AM Why? There's already solid proof that WotC hates evokers and loves cojurers/transmuters; how is this a surprise?
WombleHunter
01-23-07, 08:36 AM That's the basis of it, as I understand it - because they are Conjuration (Creation) with instantaneous durations, the only magic is in the initial casting of the spell (and, possibly, the orb's propulsion). Thus, you can't cast an Orb spell while inside an Antimagic Field, but you can, by the rules, cast one while standing outside, and attack someone who is inside the Field.
Valdrax
01-23-07, 10:08 AM This is correct. An AMF prevents you from casting, but the effects of Conjuration (Creation) spells of instantaneous duration are no longer magical after the initial casting.

This means that you can cast an orb of fire outside an AMF and chuck it in, whereas a lightning bolt would wink out once it hit the field. (I'm not sure whether or not it would exit the other side or what would happen to a fireball whose center was on the edge of an AMF.)
WombleHunter
01-23-07, 12:24 PM It also means that if you can get your Archmage to Shape an Antimagic Field, you're set. :D
thorian
01-23-07, 05:26 PM AMF blocks LOE, so you can't target that instantaneous creation in the first place.
WombleHunter
01-23-07, 07:22 PM That's ok, you aren't "targeting" in the sense spells use the term.
Caelic
01-23-07, 07:31 PM And then, there's Orb of Force. I've always kinda wondered how you conjure a nonmagical orb of magical force...
WombleHunter
01-23-07, 07:48 PM Heh, yeah. I can almost smell the house-rule coming.

EDIT: Although, given that such a thing as "force" exists in D&D to begin with, does an instance of it always have to be magical?
Elderich
01-23-07, 08:38 PM AMF blocks LOE, so you can't target that instantaneous creation in the first place.Do you have a source for this? I have been looking for one for a few weeks now and no one can find the source for this.
Aegeu
01-23-07, 08:45 PM You don't need to smell the house rule. You can see it:

Henceforth, all (lesser) orbs of X are now Evocations
thorian
01-23-07, 08:52 PM Do you have a source for this? I have been looking for one for a few weeks now and no one can find the source for this.
From the 3.0 FAQ:Does an antimagic field suppress a spell effect at the point
of origin or the area of effect? For instance, if I cast silence
on myself and then cast antimagic field (assuming I have the
Silent Spell feat), would the entire silence spell be
suppressed (because it’s centered on me), or just the 10-foot
radius surrounding me, leaving a 5-foot ring of silence
around the outside of the antimagic field?
It depends on the spell. Silence is an emanation, so the whole
effect is suppressed if the point from which the effect emanates
is inside the antimagic field. With an area spell, only the part of
the area that is within the antimagic field is suppressed. Note
that the antimagic field blocks line of effect, so an area cannot
extend through the antimagic field. For example, if you brought
the antimagic field into a fog cloud effect, only the portion of
the fog cloud that is within the antimagic field would be
suppressed. On the other hand, if you cast antimagic field in a
corridor 10 feet wide, the fog cloud effect could not spread past
the antimagic field. Note that a spread effect will flow around
an antimagic field if it has space to do so, just as it would
spread around any other barrier.

From Rules of the Game: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a
Antimagic: A spell's magical effects become nonfunctional within an area of antimagic, such as an antimagic field. When a spell is aimed into an area of antimagic from somewhere outside the area, the antimagic blocks line of effect for the spell and the spell most likely fails. If the spell doesn't produce any sort of visible display or manifestation that the caster (or other witness to the event) can perceive, then there's no clue as to why the spell failed or even that it has failed. If the blocked spell has a target entry, however, the caster will not note any failed or successful saving throws in response to the spell (see Part Two) and that in itself might alert the caster to something amiss.

If the spell's effects are visible (for example, a lightning bolt or magic missile spell -- at least when I'm the DM), the spell's visible effects stop where they meet the area of antimagic. Anyone who sees the spell being blocked can attempt a DC 26 Spellcraft check to realize that antimagic has blocked the spell.

When a spellcaster is inside an antimagic area, any spells she casts are suppressed. Such spells don't actually fail unless their durations are instantaneous. Spells with longer durations are suppressed until the caster somehow leaves the antimagic area (though time spent within the antimagic area counts against the spell's duration). If the caster isn't aware she's in an antimagic area, handle the situation in the same way you'd handle it if the caster has aimed a spell into the antimagic area from outside.
Endarire
01-23-07, 10:54 PM What, then, is the point of using mastery of shaping or Extraordinary Spell Aim on an antimagic field to exclude yourself?

-EE
TheCobra
01-23-07, 11:10 PM It depends on how you think of instantaneous. Is the spell cast once the orb has appeared, or once it strikes its target (or something else)?

If the spell's effects are visible (for example, a lightning bolt or magic missile spell -- at least when I'm the DM), the spell's visible effects stop where they meet the area of antimagic.

That bit can actually be used to support the idea of orbs getting through antimagic. It certainly discredits the idea that you can't target a creature protected by antimagic.
WombleHunter
01-24-07, 09:05 AM What, then, is the point of using mastery of shaping or Extraordinary Spell Aim on an antimagic field to exclude yourself?

-EE

..or your party members: because then, none of your extensive buffs go away. I know you understand how important that is.

In a game recently, we had a Shaped AMF, and some carefully-timed actions from a Dragon Ally (Large Gold Dragon), to completely shut down a Lich we were kidnapping.
Elderich
01-24-07, 02:24 PM thanks thorian.

I searched all the FAQ's and errata, and found nothing. I guessed I missed it somehow.
CrimsonDeath
01-24-07, 03:36 PM I believe that the line "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result," is referring to spells like Wall of Iron. That is, if you cast Wall of Iron, then cast Antimagic Field in the same spot, the wall remains because it's no longer magical, it's just a piece of iron.
TheCobra
01-24-07, 03:40 PM I believe that the line "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result," is referring to spells like Wall of Iron. That is, if you cast Wall of Iron, then cast Antimagic Field in the same spot, the wall remains because it's no longer magical, it's just a piece of iron.

That's not much different from creating an orb of acid and sending it at a creature in an antimagic field. Depends on how you think about the spell, I guess.
WombleHunter
01-24-07, 05:41 PM By the rules, it's identical.
Elderich
01-26-07, 02:06 PM I think the orb requires line of effect, thus cannot target thru a AMF

It seems arc of lightening should work tho?
Aluroon
01-26-07, 02:25 PM I think the orb requires line of effect, thus cannot target thru a AMF

It seems arc of lightening should work tho?

And Irc Blast of Flame. That targeting through antimagic is a lame ruling that further, makes no sense logically. Because your surrounded by an invisible sphere I can't see you to target you? WTF?
Shugi
01-26-07, 05:04 PM Maybe the intent was to prevent you from targeting something on the other side of the antimagic field, such as via magic missiles??
WombleHunter
01-26-07, 05:21 PM Don't forget that "targeting" isn't the same as "aiming". You don't target Orbs, nor Scorching Rays. You target Hold Person and Dominate Monster.
PhoenixInferno
01-26-07, 06:02 PM And Irc Blast of Flame. That targeting through antimagic is a lame ruling that further, makes no sense logically. Because your surrounded by an invisible sphere I can't see you to target you? WTF?They said the same thing about a glass window.
Sactheminions
01-26-07, 07:27 PM You don't need to smell the house rule. You can see it:

Henceforth, all (lesser) orbs of X are now Evocations

...because Antimagic Field wasn't a good enough spell already, because there were some crappy ranged touch Conjurations that actually went through it. TBH, I think a Lightning bolt should work the same way - electrical discharge at your hand, and then... Fireball obviously has magic at the point of origin though...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Endarire 01-23-07, 04:09 AM	Do Spell Compendium's orb spells like orb of acid, being conjuration (creation), work in antimagic fields? Antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) states An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines. An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration. Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.) A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field, though Mage's Disjunction might. Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this. Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field. I'm pretty sure this doesn't work, but if it does, oh boy. -EE
NTD 01-23-07, 04:13 AM	I'm going to say that the line "Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines." stops you from casting the orbs while inside, since the spell would not function, not creating the orb. The bolded line means you can shoot into one, or through one, but you still can't cast it while inside one.
Endarire 01-23-07, 04:35 AM	That's what I thought, but that still feels... wrong. -EE
Eyeless Blond 01-23-07, 07:50 AM	Why? There's already solid proof that WotC hates evokers and loves cojurers/transmuters; how is this a surprise?
WombleHunter 01-23-07, 08:36 AM	That's the basis of it, as I understand it - because they are Conjuration (Creation) with instantaneous durations, the only magic is in the initial casting of the spell (and, possibly, the orb's propulsion). Thus, you can't cast an Orb spell while inside an Antimagic Field, but you can, by the rules, cast one while standing outside, and attack someone who is inside the Field.
Valdrax 01-23-07, 10:08 AM	This is correct. An AMF prevents you from casting, but the effects of Conjuration (Creation) spells of instantaneous duration are no longer magical after the initial casting. This means that you can cast an orb of fire outside an AMF and chuck it in, whereas a lightning bolt would wink out once it hit the field. (I'm not sure whether or not it would exit the other side or what would happen to a fireball whose center was on the edge of an AMF.)
WombleHunter 01-23-07, 12:24 PM	It also means that if you can get your Archmage to Shape an Antimagic Field, you're set. :D
thorian 01-23-07, 05:26 PM	AMF blocks LOE, so you can't target that instantaneous creation in the first place.
WombleHunter 01-23-07, 07:22 PM	That's ok, you aren't "targeting" in the sense spells use the term.
Caelic 01-23-07, 07:31 PM	And then, there's Orb of Force. I've always kinda wondered how you conjure a nonmagical orb of magical force...
WombleHunter 01-23-07, 07:48 PM	Heh, yeah. I can almost smell the house-rule coming. EDIT: Although, given that such a thing as "force" exists in D&D to begin with, does an instance of it always have to be magical?
Elderich 01-23-07, 08:38 PM	AMF blocks LOE, so you can't target that instantaneous creation in the first place.Do you have a source for this? I have been looking for one for a few weeks now and no one can find the source for this.
Aegeu 01-23-07, 08:45 PM	You don't need to smell the house rule. You can see it: Henceforth, all (lesser) orbs of X are now Evocations
thorian 01-23-07, 08:52 PM	Do you have a source for this? I have been looking for one for a few weeks now and no one can find the source for this. From the 3.0 FAQ:Does an antimagic field suppress a spell effect at the point of origin or the area of effect? For instance, if I cast silence on myself and then cast antimagic field (assuming I have the Silent Spell feat), would the entire silence spell be suppressed (because it’s centered on me), or just the 10-foot radius surrounding me, leaving a 5-foot ring of silence around the outside of the antimagic field? It depends on the spell. Silence is an emanation, so the whole effect is suppressed if the point from which the effect emanates is inside the antimagic field. With an area spell, only the part of the area that is within the antimagic field is suppressed. Note that the antimagic field blocks line of effect, so an area cannot extend through the antimagic field. For example, if you brought the antimagic field into a fog cloud effect, only the portion of the fog cloud that is within the antimagic field would be suppressed. On the other hand, if you cast antimagic field in a corridor 10 feet wide, the fog cloud effect could not spread past the antimagic field. Note that a spread effect will flow around an antimagic field if it has space to do so, just as it would spread around any other barrier. From Rules of the Game: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a Antimagic: A spell's magical effects become nonfunctional within an area of antimagic, such as an antimagic field. When a spell is aimed into an area of antimagic from somewhere outside the area, the antimagic blocks line of effect for the spell and the spell most likely fails. If the spell doesn't produce any sort of visible display or manifestation that the caster (or other witness to the event) can perceive, then there's no clue as to why the spell failed or even that it has failed. If the blocked spell has a target entry, however, the caster will not note any failed or successful saving throws in response to the spell (see Part Two) and that in itself might alert the caster to something amiss. If the spell's effects are visible (for example, a lightning bolt or magic missile spell -- at least when I'm the DM), the spell's visible effects stop where they meet the area of antimagic. Anyone who sees the spell being blocked can attempt a DC 26 Spellcraft check to realize that antimagic has blocked the spell. When a spellcaster is inside an antimagic area, any spells she casts are suppressed. Such spells don't actually fail unless their durations are instantaneous. Spells with longer durations are suppressed until the caster somehow leaves the antimagic area (though time spent within the antimagic area counts against the spell's duration). If the caster isn't aware she's in an antimagic area, handle the situation in the same way you'd handle it if the caster has aimed a spell into the antimagic area from outside.
Endarire 01-23-07, 10:54 PM	What, then, is the point of using mastery of shaping or Extraordinary Spell Aim on an antimagic field to exclude yourself? -EE
TheCobra 01-23-07, 11:10 PM	It depends on how you think of instantaneous. Is the spell cast once the orb has appeared, or once it strikes its target (or something else)? If the spell's effects are visible (for example, a lightning bolt or magic missile spell -- at least when I'm the DM), the spell's visible effects stop where they meet the area of antimagic. That bit can actually be used to support the idea of orbs getting through antimagic. It certainly discredits the idea that you can't target a creature protected by antimagic.
WombleHunter 01-24-07, 09:05 AM	What, then, is the point of using mastery of shaping or Extraordinary Spell Aim on an antimagic field to exclude yourself? -EE ..or your party members: because then, none of your extensive buffs go away. I know you understand how important that is. In a game recently, we had a Shaped AMF, and some carefully-timed actions from a Dragon Ally (Large Gold Dragon), to completely shut down a Lich we were kidnapping.
Elderich 01-24-07, 02:24 PM	thanks thorian. I searched all the FAQ's and errata, and found nothing. I guessed I missed it somehow.
CrimsonDeath 01-24-07, 03:36 PM	I believe that the line "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result," is referring to spells like Wall of Iron. That is, if you cast Wall of Iron, then cast Antimagic Field in the same spot, the wall remains because it's no longer magical, it's just a piece of iron.
TheCobra 01-24-07, 03:40 PM	I believe that the line "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result," is referring to spells like Wall of Iron. That is, if you cast Wall of Iron, then cast Antimagic Field in the same spot, the wall remains because it's no longer magical, it's just a piece of iron. That's not much different from creating an orb of acid and sending it at a creature in an antimagic field. Depends on how you think about the spell, I guess.
WombleHunter 01-24-07, 05:41 PM	By the rules, it's identical.
Elderich 01-26-07, 02:06 PM	I think the orb requires line of effect, thus cannot target thru a AMF It seems arc of lightening should work tho?
Aluroon 01-26-07, 02:25 PM	I think the orb requires line of effect, thus cannot target thru a AMF It seems arc of lightening should work tho? And Irc Blast of Flame. That targeting through antimagic is a lame ruling that further, makes no sense logically. Because your surrounded by an invisible sphere I can't see you to target you? WTF?
Shugi 01-26-07, 05:04 PM	Maybe the intent was to prevent you from targeting something on the other side of the antimagic field, such as via magic missiles??
WombleHunter 01-26-07, 05:21 PM	Don't forget that "targeting" isn't the same as "aiming". You don't target Orbs, nor Scorching Rays. You target Hold Person and Dominate Monster.
PhoenixInferno 01-26-07, 06:02 PM	And Irc Blast of Flame. That targeting through antimagic is a lame ruling that further, makes no sense logically. Because your surrounded by an invisible sphere I can't see you to target you? WTF?They said the same thing about a glass window.
Sactheminions 01-26-07, 07:27 PM	You don't need to smell the house rule. You can see it: Henceforth, all (lesser) orbs of X are now Evocations ...because Antimagic Field wasn't a good enough spell already, because there were some crappy ranged touch Conjurations that actually went through it. TBH, I think a Lightning bolt should work the same way - electrical discharge at your hand, and then... Fireball obviously has magic at the point of origin though...